How far has craft beer come in Ireland?

MadsL

I have been gone for four years and landed in the US in one of the epicentres of the craft brewing explosion. Can't throw a stone without hitting a brewery.

I left when Galway Hooker was about the sum of it, and there were a few Czech places in Dublin importing decent beer. Of course there was the Porterhouse...

How much has craft brewing taken off in Ireland in the past four years?

Amirani

It really has grown massively. There are few pubs without some form of "alternative" offering outside the traditional beers now. The number of breweries has jumped hugely, and there seems to be much greater public engagement about it. Some of the breweries really are doing some fantastic stuff.

MadsL

Amirani wrote: »

It really has grown massively. There are few pubs without some form of "alternative" offering outside the traditional beers now. The number of breweries has jumped hugely, and there seems to be much greater public engagement about it. Some of the breweries really are doing some fantastic stuff.

Good to see some choice at last, anyone in the trade know if Diageo are a bit less aggressive about protecting the macros by threatening to take out the Guinness?

Any highlighted breweries? Standouts?

L1011

MadsL wrote: »

Good to see some choice at last, anyone in the trade know if Diageo are a bit less aggressive about protecting the macros by threatening to take out the Guinness?

Any highlighted breweries? Standouts?

Diageo have their own faux-craft products they try (and usually succeed) in getting in to bars that are selling crafts - some various Smithwicks versions and a hopped up lager called Hophouse 13 that has basically replaced Harp outside of Louth. Heineken have also gone down this road.

New (since you left) startup called Rye River is probably the biggest non-macro brewer in the country with their own brands (McGargles) and white label for Tesco and Lidl. O'Haras/Carlow Brewing are still big and available on bottle at least in vast numbers of pubs now and most supermarkets.

I've long since lost count of the number of breweries, but theres probably 50 producing their own product at least, fair few pubs in each of the cities that only sell Irish craft + imported products, mass improvement in what offlicences sell, every supermarket having its own brand product made by an Irish brewer, etc, etc.

schemingbohemia

Think being in O'Connells on South Richmond Street on Friday and seeing a fridge full of Dungarvan/O'Haras/Galway Bay beers made me realise how far we've come.

Mesrine65

http://www.beoir.org/index.php/craft-beer-directories/breweries

snowblind

Standouts: 8 Degrees, White Hag, Kinnegar, Galway Bay

There are lots of new breweries and beers, but the average quality isn't that great at the moment I feel. A lot of the new breweries I tried at the RDS festival were quite bad

The supermarket offerings of O'Haras, McGargles etc can be quite disappointing if you're comparing to quality american brews. The core selection of some of the good breweries can be bland too (see 8 degrees, their hoppy specials are where it's at). Some breweries hop between great and meh (Trouble Brewing) and some have been around and never produced anything worthwhile (Dungarvan, IMO).

Especially with newer beer trends coming in such as barrel aged beers, sours, saisons...a lot of middling stuff. But at least there are finally decent fresh and local hoppy beers that trump the imported classics.

oblivious

L1011 wrote: »

I've long since lost count of the number of breweries, but theres probably 50 producing their own product at least, fair few pubs in each of the cities that only sell Irish craft + imported products, mass improvement in what offlicences sell, every supermarket having its own brand product made by an Irish brewer, etc, etc.

79 including both own brewery and contract across the island

oblivious

The s still a big and growing fight for tap and fridge space. With Molson , C&C and Guniness all looking for space. Unfortunately sometimes targeting small independent breweries

murphyebass

Massive change in Dublin in particular in recent years with a few more pubs doing a proper selection of craft beers like Against the Grain for example. Fantastic spot.

Thankfully even outside of the capital lots of pubs are at least stocking a few bottles of the bigger craft breweries.

As for other breweries though in general god there's buckets of them.

Standout for me are Galway bay, 8 degrees and to a slighter lesser extent Kinnegar.

What I mean by standout I should expand on is breweries I buy from regularly.

I picked up a couple of bears from brothers brewing I think they're called the other day and the two I've had were very good and have a double IPA still to go. Pretty small batch stuff so can be expensive but I don't mind paying if it's good.

Some poor stuff as well out there as another poster mentioned.
Tried a couple of beers from a Drogheda brewery recently that was muck. Can't think of the name of the brewery at this minute.

Still more good than bad out there now imo. Great to have such a great selection of Irish craft in offies

I've started brewing a little recently with a friend doing extract stuff and I think anyone into decent beer should give it a go as it really gets you thinking of the genius behind some of these beers. Hard work and great recipes.

One ticked off the auld bucket list

Lucena

Definitely a big improvement in Dublin. However walk into a pub down the country and the chances of seeing a craft tap are rather low.

SteeveeDee

snowblind wrote: »

Some breweries hop between great and meh (Trouble Brewing) and some have been around and never produced anything worthwhile (Dungarvan, IMO).

:eek::eek::eek::eek: Whhhaaaa!! The Dungarvan core range on cask are impeccable beers! Probably the best cask offerings of any Irish brewery. I'm thinking this is more of a taste issue as you seem to hold the American offerings in high regard which tend to be far hoppier or more recently and my own personal nag is the tendency to make stouts as if to ween 5 year old's of hershey bars!

I agree with your standout breweries alright,some great beers being made there. I'd suggest West Kerry Brewery, Sweetmans, Mescan and White Gypsy (of course) too.

ben.schlomo

SteeveeDee wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek::eek: Whhhaaaa!! The Dungarvan core range on cask are impeccable beers! Probably the best cask offerings of any Irish brewery. I'm thinking this is more of a taste issue as you seem to hold the American offerings in high regard which tend to be far hoppier or more recently and my own personal nag is the tendency to make stouts as if to ween 5 year old's of hershey bars!

I agree with your standout breweries alright,some great beers being made there. I'd suggest West Kerry Brewery, Sweetmans, Mescan and White Gypsy (of course) too.

I think Dungarvan's Blackrock Stout is excellent. White Gypsy ive always found to be a let down though.

draiochtanois

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Aglomerado

ben.schlomo wrote: »

I think Dungarvan's Blackrock Stout is excellent.

Their Coffee and Oatmeal Stout is a cracker as well.

Lucena

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Surprised by this remark. Most so-so craft beer would be, in my opinion, still better than drinking whatever macro lager is available in your local. Unless you're talking about beer that has a defect. The only drawback I would see is the fact of paying a premium for something sub-standard.

oblivious

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Really gone done hill in the last years or two IMHO, but nothing compared to the fall of their wheat beer

Geuze

snowblind wrote: »

Standouts: 8 Degrees, White Hag, Kinnegar, Galway Bay

GBB seem to be both successful brewers, and publicans.

I am lucky to have 3-4 White Hag taps in one of my local pubs, through not always are all taps active.

draiochtanois

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irish_goat

oblivious wrote: »

Really gone done hill in the last years or two IMHO, but nothing compared to the fall of their wheat beer

Might pick up now that they're brewing it in Cork again.

oblivious

irish_goat wrote: »

Might pick up now that they're brewing it in Cork again.

Will we be sure all of will ?

MadsL

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Craft beer is considerably more expensive to brew than the macros, part of the reason craft beer has taken off so much in the US is very favourable excise duty rates for small breweries which helps them compete. Typical price for a craft pint (US pints are smaller!) is $4-5. But you can still buy a PBR or Bud for $2-3.

draiochtanois

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snowblind

Oh I should've warned about the price complainers. Diageo has managed to determine the price allowed for a pint in Ireland and any deviation will cause a ruckus. Regardless of it's a sour beer barrel aged for 2 years or whatever. Over a fiver for a pint means the brewery is taking the piss, price gouging, responsible for Greece going bankrupt etc.

MadsL

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Consider the overheads of starting a craft brewery;

Equipment is in the range of $45-50k for a three barrel system, then you have all the overheads associated with setting up a new business, insurance, packaging (new kegs are about $100 each) wages (salaried servers rather than tip based in the US) and not least is the tens of thousands of euros to get a manufacturers licence that would allow you to sell direct. http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/expensive-licensing-laws-holding-irish-microbrewers-back-30811257.html

The cost of grain and hops at the nano-scale is massive compared to the unit costs of the big boys, imagine the discounts you get on a silo of grain compared to the small guys buying 50lb sacks. Same with hops. Craft beers use massive amounts of hops compared to the lightly hopped macro euro-lagers and Guinness. 44lbs of Cascade pellets runs almost $500, and thast just 7-10 brews when you are brewing 90 gallons at a time on a 3BB system.
180+lbs of grain going into each batch = $100 - $150.

I know someone running a successful nano locally, he can just about pay himself $2500 a month, and he sells direct.

Your one euro and change price differential goes on quality ingredients, not making someone rich.

MadsL

Here's a good comparison;

http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=281814621
http://www.greenearthorganics.ie/cheese-and-olives/cheddar-vintage-little-milk-co.-120g.html

Do you think the vintage cheddar should be the same price as the Tesco brand?

MadsL

draiochtanois wrote: »

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What sucks about this is that it is a repayment scheme, you have to pay the tax and claim the repayment. In the US the tax collected is lower in the first place, this means one of the economic barrier to entry for craft brewing is lower.

You are basically fronting 50% of the tax rate.

Subcomandante Marcos

MadsL wrote: »

What sucks about this is that it is a repayment scheme, you have to pay the tax and claim the repayment. In the US the tax collected is lower in the first place, this means one of the economic barrier to entry for craft brewing is lower.

You are basically fronting 50% of the tax rate.

They've just changed the rebate system, breweries don't have to pay it and then reclaim it anymore from the start of the next tax year.

MadsL

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

They've just changed the rebate system, breweries don't have to pay it and then reclaim it anymore from the start of the next tax year.

Good. Because it was a particularly stupid way to treat a job creation industry.

draiochtanois

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MadsL

draiochtanois wrote: »

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But this example ISN'T made in the same plant, and Kerrygold is just premium branding. I'm asking you to compare a craft cheesemaker with factory produced.

Your butter analogy is the same as saying, oh, Stella Artois is "reassuringly expensive" so craft brewers should match Stella pricing.

You dodged the question very well so I'll ask it slightly differently, "Do you think that vintage cheddar should be the same price as the Tesco brand?"

draiochtanois

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Hingo

Back on topic - I'd say you could come back to Ireland and get craft beer pretty easily now compare to when you left. However I'm not sure if you could apply the same "stone's throw" rule, especially outside Dublin.


One day, hopefully.

But we're in a much better place now, and with a lot of folks looking to jump on the bandwagon opening their own Micros (they'd be welcome too IMO).

Not sure if it's as easy to do a Nano operation here where one could just brew enough to make their own revenue, too much red tape, etc..Seems to be better off going all or nothing and setting up a full blown Micro brewery to have any hope of making a self employed career from it. if that changed though, It would be great for the rural craft scene to see more Locally based & sold brews - a different beer for each town you visit, like you might see in some other countries.

MadsL

draiochtanois wrote: »

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"What's that got to do with the price of butter?" was your response, any chance you could answer the question I asked?

The cost of a price of any beer in any pub is made up of 4 components

Excise Duty
VAT
Publicans share
Brewers share

Do you think craft beer is more or less expensive to produce than macros?

I think most commercial beer is overpriced because a large part of the commercial brewers share is spent on marketing.

So the bulk of the €1.70 in the example given is not spent on ingredients it's spent on marketing €300 million on Guinness in Ireland.

So I'll accept that the ingredients are more expensive for craft beers but there is plenty latitude in the marketing element of the brewer cost/share.

Plus they have the benefit lower excise duty.

Hence no reason to be more expensive.

You have totally discounted product development costs and economies of scale. They are important factors, in 30 years maybe craft brewers can compete on equal footing but right now that is impossible.

And as before even more reason when the sell it in the pub that is co-located with the brewery.

Did you miss the part about the cost of a Manufacturers Licence to sell direct?

Nano scale brewing is a struggle; https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=16303.0

n97 mini

Hingo wrote: »

But we're in a much better place now, and with a lot of folks looking to jump on the bandwagon opening their own Micros (they'd be welcome too IMO).

Like Guinneess, who've opened their own microbrewery and craft beer pub, and their daughter brand ran a homebrew craft beer competition. So if the big guys are jumping on the craft beer bandwagon, that says something.

MadsL

n97 mini wrote: »

Like Guinneess, who've opened their own microbrewery and craft beer pub, and their daughter brand ran a homebrew craft beer competition. So if the big guys are jumping on the craft beer bandwagon, that says something.

Unfortunatly this is Guinness USA's idea of craft beer...
http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/209/191070/

L1011

MadsL wrote: »

Unfortunatly this is Guinness USA's idea of craft beer...
http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/209/191070/

About as 'sensible' as some of the stuff they've churned out over here.

Actually, that probably was 'churned out over here' in James Gate now that I think about it.

MadsL

L1011 wrote: »

About as 'sensible' as some of the stuff they've churned out over here.

Actually, that probably was 'churned out over here' in James Gate now that I think about it.

Advertising over here (annoyingly in my Craft Beer Brewing magazine) - now who exactly is this aimed at? People who think IPAs are not "smooth, balanced and drinkable"? If you think that adding nitro will solve that problem you know nothing about the beer style. Marketing guff.

BMJD

A few years ago, there were a handful of breweries; they steadfastly knocked out a pale ale, a stout and a red, and they were all 4-5% abv, and quite dull.

They got a little bit hoppier and adventurous, but were still under the 6% mark. There seemed to be a belief that anything over this would result in bodies on the streets, melted livers in hospitals all over the country.

Then GBB released the hounds in the form of Of Foam And Fury and the floodgates were opened. Then we all realised that it was perfectly normal to sip a beer or two without going mental (or maybe it was the pricetag!), and 8/9/10% beers are normal everyday items that you can pick up in SuperValu. All made in places down the road.
And there's something close to 100 breweries now, there's almost one in every county.

Or something

Hingo

MadsL wrote: »

Advertising over here (annoyingly in my Craft Beer Brewing magazine) - now who exactly is this aimed at? People who think IPAs are not "smooth, balanced and drinkable"? If you think that adding nitro will solve that problem you know nothing about the beer style. Marketing guff.

I've heard a lot about this, can't get it here but I'd love to taste it just to see what they were thinking.

I wouldn't mind but I always thought that Guinness started the Nitro to replicate the "Cask" effect that I'm sure a lot of people miss / would like to see again. the low carbonation promotes the malt flavors. However Hops need bubbles & more CO2 to come out correctly. I'm sure there was someone in there that knew this at one point. Doesn't look like they wrote it down..

On the other side of the coin, it's good to see them experimenting, even if their motive could be said to compete with a market of craft beers they had no time for in the past, at least they're jumping on the bandwagon as opposed to trying any other tactics with the small guys.

BeerNut

Hingo wrote: »

I've heard a lot about this, can't get it here but I'd love to taste it just to see what they were thinking.

It's on tap at the Open Gate. It tastes like an English nitrokeg bitter more than anything. I've never tasted the nitro version of Greene King IPA but I bet it's pretty similar.

MadsL

BeerNut wrote: »

It's on tap at the Open Gate. It tastes like an English nitrokeg bitter more than anything. I've never tasted the nitro version of Greene King IPA but I bet it's pretty similar.

I'm baffled as to why you would want a nitro mouthfeel on an IPA though...

snowblind

A wild guess - the only people who wanted that were the Diageo marketing department

MadsL

Sorry to "harp" on about Diageo, but some insights here on the process.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/09/guinness-made-a-nitro-ipa-and-its-terrible

crazyhorse

I would agree with earlier posters that namechecked Eight Degrees and Dungarvan as the standout Irish craft breweries. My two best Irish beers of the year were both Saisons - an inspired seaweed offering from Dungarvan and a Nelso Sauvin hopped brew from 8 degrees. Honourable mention to Kinnegar and I recently tasted a fine ale from new Galway brewery Wild Bat. The Irish craft beer scene is thriving and most of what is produced is preferable to the bland brews the macros have been delivering for years. I'm quite happy to pay a bit extra for what I consider a better product but have friends who baulk at the idea paying "more than normal" for a pint. Interesting times ahead...

White Horse

Still miles away from where I'd like us to be. The average pub still stocks bland industrial brews. There might be a token craft beer in the fridge, usually one or two bottles mind. Once they are gone, they are gone. Time to go home folks.

Still no regional character in pubs. A pub in Donegal will have the same beers are one in Wexford.

As long as the average drinker buys into the Diageo marketing crap, it will never really change.

L1011

White Horse wrote: »

Still miles away from where I'd like us to be. The average pub still stocks bland industrial brews. There might be a token craft beer in the fridge, usually one or two bottles mind. Once they are gone, they are gone. Time to go home folks.

Still no regional character in pubs. A pub in Donegal will have the same beers are one in Wexford.

As long as the average drinker buys into the Diageo marketing crap, it will never really change.

This doesn't match my experience in the past year or so; particularly not in Donegal as it happens... my local there has Kinnegar taps, my local here has Rye River and Kellys (Clane) products.

BeerNut

White Horse wrote: »

The average pub still stocks bland industrial brews.

Instead of going to average pubs, go to good ones. Bring a friend.

White Horse wrote: »

A pub in Donegal will have the same beers are one in Wexford.

I'm sometimes miffed that most of the Donegal Brewing Company beers -- especially the Mild and Porter -- never make it out of Donegal so I don't get to try them. We get a trickle of Yellow Belly beers from Wexford into Dublin, but mostly you have to go to Wexford to get them. But much as it irks me as a beer geek, I do love how we have regional diversity like this in our beer. You want West Cork Brewing Co. beer? You go to West Cork. Burren Brewery beer outside of the Burren? No dice Wicklow Brewing Co. beer is mostly found in Wicklow, and the same for West Mayo Brewery. Cavan has a brewery now but try finding Ó Cléirigh Brewing beers outside of Cavan.

White Horse wrote: »

As long as the average drinker buys into the Diageo marketing crap, it will never really change.

Nonsense. Think of the country with the best beer-drinking culture. The average drinker there still drinks big-brand advert-led beer. Flavour-driven beer only needs to be a niche, and it's quite likely it only ever will be.

slayerking

BeerNut wrote: »

I'm sometimes miffed that most of the Donegal Brewing Company beers -- especially the Mild and Porter -- never make it out of Donegal so I don't get to try them. We get a trickle of Yellow Belly beers from Wexford into Dublin, but mostly you have to go to Wexford to get them. But much as it irks me as a beer geek, I do love how we have regional diversity like this in our beer. You want West Cork Brewing Co. beer? You go to West Cork. Burren Brewery beer outside of the Burren? No dice Wicklow Brewing Co. beer is mostly found in Wicklow, and the same for West Mayo Brewery. Cavan has a brewery now but try finding Ó Cléirigh Brewing beers outside of Cavan.

Similar with the St Mel's beers actually. On draft in many pubs in Longford town, and midlands. Draft St Mel's is non existant elsewhere.

BeerNut

slayerking wrote: »

Draft St Mel's is non existant elsewhere.

The Headline in Dublin has the Brown Ale on at the moment, but point taken

lk67

BeerNut wrote: »

Instead of going to average pubs, go to good ones. Bring a friend.

This is easier said than done outside of Dublin, Cork and Galway.

Smaller towns such as the one I'm in don't have the range of bars that some of you are used to. Case in point, there are two craft bars in my town - well one and a half to be more accurate. Both are fine for a couple of pints on a Saturday afternoon but if I fancy a few pints on almost any weekday night then the better one is full of smoke, teeny boppers and loud music (I know, I know...) and the other resembles God's waiting room, with a poor selection of craft.

And if I fancy a stout on draft then it's Guinness or nothing.

There's very little bar choice outside the major populations centres.

Even Kilkenny has only one bar with a good draft selection, Wexford has two, Waterford maybe 3?

Mind you at least I have SOME choice here now, it's a big difference to a year ago, which is a positive.

And I know we should be demanding a craft selection in every bar but when the average Joe doesn't give a toss it's harder for the rest of us to make a case.

But as I say, it's getting better!

PS. I have no friends.