So, nobody ever talks about men's body depiction in media...

H3llR4iser

...more specifically, I'm referring to fantasy/art media (e.g. cartoons, comics, videogames) rather than movies, as I'm talking mainly physical appearance.

Surfing around I found out about the game "Dragon's Crown" and the whole controversy surrounding its art style - a couple of the playable characters are depicted with impossibly enormous breasts and/or humongous backsides. I took a look at footage from the game - personally don't like the art style as everybody looks, essentially, affected by some bad case of deformity.
Which applies to the men as well - shoulders as wide as an airport runway paired with tiny hips and heads smaller than their hands, plus muscle groups I am quite sure can't be found on an human body.

Yet, the controversy was only about the women - about their wrong proportions, about sending wrong messages and whatnot. Nobody takes a look at the guys and goes "hey, the lads are quite wrong as well, you know".

The very same applies to other games, plus other forms of drawn/modeled media: comics, both in the DC and Marvel flavours, are often harshly criticized about the heroines "unrealistic" looks, while not a word is ever spent about the fact their male counterparts are at least as unrealistic.

So, in order for somebody to raise the question, do we need to wait for somebody to draw/model a character with a nightmarish "bulge" in the crotch area? Or would even that be overlooked, everyone too busy being offended by a pair of boobs?

TheKevin

Very interesting observation. There's no popular discussion on how these portrayals of masculinity project pressure on men. I've seen many articles on the standards of femininity impressed upon children via Disney cartoons, but have never seen a discussion of the same with respect to standards of masculinity. Forget Gaston, even Aladdin has more defined pecs than most men.

titan18

Aye, point out the fat superheroes or video game characters. Or even the not athletic freak ones.

You tend to have a few joke characters, and a handful of exceptions.

trixychic

This is a pet peeve of mine... and I'm a woman. Personally in some areas the whole "woman power" thing has gone too far.

They shout about equal rights and the stuff but then there's that insurance for woman....

If men had insurance only for men there would be uproar. But nothing is said about female only one.

Woman want equals standards from men yet still expect them to be the "gentleman" on dates and pull out chairs or hold open doors.

They protest all the time about the body images of woman in newspapers or magazines but nothing is said about the male shots.

It's all gone hay wire if you ask me. I know dam well men and woman are different. We've got tits and can carry children. Yous have dicks and can.... carry other stuff. I still want to be respected as a human being and be counted and valued but I would much rather have a gentleman to treat me then complain about equal rights....

Sorry and rant over!!!!


Edited for a ton of errors. Anger makes mistakes. Ha

One eyed Jack

H3llR4iser wrote: »

...more specifically, I'm referring to fantasy/art media (e.g. cartoons, comics, videogames) rather than movies, as I'm talking mainly physical appearance.

Surfing around I found out about the game "Dragon's Crown" and the whole controversy surrounding its art style - a couple of the playable characters are depicted with impossibly enormous breasts and/or humongous backsides. I took a look at footage from the game - personally don't like the art style as everybody looks, essentially, affected by some bad case of deformity.
Which applies to the men as well - shoulders as wide as an airport runway paired with tiny hips and heads smaller than their hands, plus muscle groups I am quite sure can't be found on an human body.

Yet, the controversy was only about the women - about their wrong proportions, about sending wrong messages and whatnot. Nobody takes a look at the guys and goes "hey, the lads are quite wrong as well, you know".

The very same applies to other games, plus other forms of drawn/modeled media: comics, both in the DC and Marvel flavours, are often harshly criticized about the heroines "unrealistic" looks, while not a word is ever spent about the fact their male counterparts are at least as unrealistic.

So, in order for somebody to raise the question, do we need to wait for somebody to draw/model a character with a nightmarish "bulge" in the crotch area? Or would even that be overlooked, everyone too busy being offended by a pair of boobs?

I don't understand why anyone didn't point out the sweeping generalisations in your post already. The problem with even your own post as I read it is that I'm confused as to whether your issue is with the depictions of men in these fantasy media, or is your issue with the people who are offended by the depictions of women in these fantasy media?

If your issue is with the depictions of men, then I'm sure you can understand where the people who object to the depictions of women are coming from.

If your issue is with the people who are offended by the depictions of women, then you really haven't given yourself a leg to stand on if you're claiming that the depictions of men are offensive.

Me personally, I'm not too bothered by the depictions of either gender. I think it's nothing more than a case of looking for things to be offended by, and here's the newest gender war nonsense we could come up with.


I'd better go hide my collection of Sláine graphic novels. It's not the blood nor gore that bothers some people, no, it'll be the lack of realism in the character depictions of a fantasy graphic novel...

Right.

H3llR4iser

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't understand why anyone didn't point out the sweeping generalisations in your post already. The problem with even your own post as I read it is that I'm confused as to whether your issue is with the depictions of men in these fantasy media, or is your issue with the people who are offended by the depictions of women in these fantasy media?

"Sweeping generalization"? Way off road. I have no issue with either representation - it's fantasy work. I have an issue with the fact the female one being "unrealistic" gets pointed out all the time, and the male gets ignored.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If your issue is with the depictions of men, then I'm sure you can understand where the people who object to the depictions of women are coming from.

If your issue is with the people who are offended by the depictions of women, then you really haven't given yourself a leg to stand on if you're claiming that the depictions of men are offensive.

Quite clearly, I have no problems with either. Only with the resonance it gets.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd better go hide my collection of Sláine graphic novels. It's not the blood nor gore that bothers some people, no, it'll be the lack of realism in the character depictions of a fantasy graphic novel...

Right.

Exactly. Besides, I don't really mind the blood and gore either, but that's another story.

Mackman

This bothers me sometimes too, but not too much. I think it's because I have a certain confidence about my appearance, and as a man my appearance is not judged as harshly as it is for women.

From a young age women are told how to dress, put on make up, do their hair, how to walk, sit, stand, and all these things are judged by society. Just look at Xpose or ET, people judge these celebrities like this. So it stands to reason young girls think everyone is judging them like that too. So for women it is a much bigger issue IMO.

When I see a picture of a guy that looks like he's carved out of stone, I fell a little bad about the extra 7-8kg I'm lugging around, do some sit ups then I forget about it. I'm not bombarded with messages saying I have to look like that

Manach

The depiction of male characters in other media tends to the idealised. This is a historical trend, based on say the images of homeric heroes in the Greek epics. That this continues is part of wish of the reader to be greater, better, more whole when stepping in the imaged world. Of course it might be that the Beowulf types might just enjoy playing Sim-train, just to get a break from the norm.

freenow

I have seen a number of articles on the pressure men face around body image. It's not just a female centric arena any more. I can't post links but if you just google "men negative body image" there are some decent articles.

Then you have Vin Deisel being body shamed publicly for daring to appear on a hotel balcony with a tummy instead of ripped abs.

I have 2 sons and we talk about unrealistic ideals in the media often and we try to avoid mainstream media as much as possible because it's mostly toxic. I think we are all adversely affected by the way men and woman are portrayed in our culture.

smash

Should we create a "This is what a real man looks like" meme and have a photo of someone in their mid 30's with a beer gut, overgrown body hair and receding hairline?

RTE Reality Bites did a show last week called 'the gun show'. It was about the recent male obsession with the gym and trying to look buff. A psychotherapist said it goes back to the 90s when aids was rampant and Calvin Klein were heavily advertising. The perception was that skinny=sick and buff=perfection. Not sure I believe that, in fact I do not believe that... in my opinion it's just the alpha male thing about needing to be the biggest and best in the crowd. But to take that comment further, it's a prehistoric mindset because we are no longer hunters and gatherers and in this age we are more measured on our success in terms of material possessions.

For everything mentioned in the OP regarding female body image, it's unrealistic for most, but not unachievable. Just look at a recent photo of Jenna Jameson. Huge boobs and ass, all manufactured. For a male character to have a massive package, it's unrealistic for most and unachievable for them too unless you want to cause serious damage and render the appendage useless.

Even after all that, I'm not sure a video game of comic character with a gigantic penis would bother too many people or push them into making a complaint because if you complain or point out that it's big then 'you must be small'. Examples of this bickering can be recently witnessed on twitter during the Justin Beiber nude image release. Grown men and women literally arguing about weather his dick was big or small. And then there's the women who wrote articles about weather he was a grower or a shower.

Either way... I'm just going to sit here, enjoy my coffee and bagel and research specs of cars I can't afford because I don't really care to get offended about the proportions of fictional characters be them male or female. It's not like Jonah Falcon has recently been positioned as a public spokesperson for the average penis brigade.... That, I'd take issue with.

BrianD3

Maybe it's because I'm not into comics/art/fantasy but the specific issue raised in the OP doesn't bother me. If there are women getting annoyed because some wildly exaggerated cartoon character has a hip to waist ratio that no human can have, I would regard that as silly rather than wondering why someone hasn't gotten annoyed about equally unrealistic male cartoon character.

Now having said that, the general topic of male body portrayal in the media is a good one. However I'm talking about actual male bodies - maybe achieved with the help of steroids. Bodies of fitness models, actors and professional athletes etc.

I'm in my late thirties and have been lifting weights for over 12 years, I'm 5'9 and only about 12 stone but am lean with a six pack and an obvious V taper. My focus has been more on strength than size over the years but even so, had I focused on size I wouldn't be much bigger as I'm a natural ectomorph.

Now during the Rugby World Cup I heard comments from women oohing and aaahing about various players being so TALL and BIG and saying some pretty graphic things about what they'd like to do to them and implying that they probably have huge penises as well. I can easily see why men could feel bad hearing that.

I remember previously hearing women saying that Ronan O'Gara was "too short and skinny" and that O'Connell and O'Callaghan were "hunks". Not that O'Gara gives a crap but when you hear stuff like that about an international fly half who is around 6 foot tall and 13 stone and you know that you are shorter and skinnier than that, it's a recipe for insecurity.

With social media, facebook, instagram, niteclub "culture" and the glorification of professional sportspeople and celebrities generally, I think there is more pressure than ever on young lads to be big and lean, to hit the gym hard and to take steroids. IMO there are far more built young lads around than there were when I was 18. Thinking back to how insecure I was when I was 18, if I was that age now I'd say there's a good chance that I would be taking steroids.

One eyed Jack

H3llR4iser wrote: »

"Sweeping generalization"? Way off road. I have no issue with either representation - it's fantasy work. I have an issue with the fact the female one being "unrealistic" gets pointed out all the time, and the male gets ignored.

It was the "nobody looks at the men and says this is wrong... everyone gets offended by a pair of boobs" generalisation I was referring to. Clearly some people are bothered by the unrealistic representations of men (He-man has been thrown out there for donkeys years), and no, not everyone is offended by the unrealistic representations of women either, just a handful of people with a whole lot of time on their hands.

Quite clearly, I have no problems with either. Only with the resonance it gets.

I understand what you mean, but I'm questioning myself and thinking - "Do we really need to go there?". I understand that we can of course care about male suicide at the same time as we care about unrealistic depictions of men in the media, but I'm just wondering, "Should we actually really care about who has the bigger 'codpiece' (jesus wept) between Chris O' Donnell and George Clooney in the Batman film a few years back?". Should we actually be entertaining that nonsense?

Because a handful of people get their knickers in a twist about unrealistic depictions of women, we should equally be getting our knickers in a twist about unrealistic depictions of men? Come on now, must we really be so pathetic? What I'm saying is - we should be perfectly capable of ignoring people who as you say are trying to make an issue of being offended by women's breasts, because they're being silly. I would think the same of anyone who had an issue with men's 'codpieces', or their unrealistic depictions or whatever.

We shouldn't be teaching people of either gender that sort of insecurity is acceptable, and we certainly shouldn't be entertaining them and suggesting that men should be equally offended, or that we should be offended by people being silly. We should see it for what it is, and most people do - utter nonsense.

Exactly. Besides, I don't really mind the blood and gore either, but that's another story.

I won't be hiding my Sláine comics, nor will I be turming off the "bouncing breasts" setting in Dead or Alive, nor will I be reducing my consumption of pornography because of the unrealistic representations of either women, or men, or sex, or anything else. I'll simply be ignoring anyone who tries to impress their insecurities upon society. Because that is the best way to deal with such people - ignore them, and eventually they realise how silly they're being (well, that's the theory anyway!).

smash

BrianD3 wrote: »

IMO there are far more built young lads around than there were when I was 18. Thinking back to how insecure I was when I was 18, if I was that age now I'd say there's a good chance that I would be taking steroids.

In my 30's now and I have 17yr old cousins who were a lot bulkier and stronger two years ago than I've ever been, even at my fittest. All encouraged by their coaches in school who will give them rigorous weight training schedules and diets topped off with protein shakes and supplements.

Gaygooner

Young men seem to into "bulking up" and drinking protein shakes etc now far more than when I was younger

fits

Every single shop here in finland has an aisle dedicated to protein powders and supplements and goodness knows what else. And I always see young men buying them along with quark and other high protein dairy products. I really find it quite strange and unnecessary.

Sleepy

How much of that bulking has to do with the emergence of "bosh" Rugby?

Wanderer78

thankfully i pretty much ignore media and advertising so my body's perfect! shame on the marketing sector for making people feel otherwise

Gaygooner

If Apple did iProtien maybe 😉

H3llR4iser

smash wrote: »

Should we create a "This is what a real man looks like" meme and have a photo of someone in their mid 30's with a beer gut, overgrown body hair and receding hairline?

By the Pah-Wraiths, please no

smash wrote: »

For everything mentioned in the OP regarding female body image, it's unrealistic for most, but not unachievable. Just look at a recent photo of Jenna Jameson. Huge boobs and ass, all manufactured. For a male character to have a massive package, it's unrealistic for most and unachievable for them too unless you want to cause serious damage and render the appendage useless.

This is a very interesting concept. If you go to any gym, you will find at least a few women who train quite hard and have outstanding physiques - wide shoulders, toned chest, small waist and round hips. Those ladies are normal people like you, me and everyone else here and yet - within the limitations of reality, biology and physics - their appearance is not too far off what you see, say, Catwoman, Black Canary or Huntress depicted as.

The men, however...how many Wolverine, Thor or Barman-like bodies you see on non-steroid infused dudes? In many years, I yet have to see one.

Note, my point is not about the representation itself - I couldn't care less. It's about the double standard...

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It was the "nobody looks at the men and says this is wrong... everyone gets offended by a pair of boobs" generalisation I was referring to. Clearly some people are bothered by the unrealistic representations of men (He-man has been thrown out there for donkeys years), and no, not everyone is offended by the unrealistic representations of women either, just a handful of people with a whole lot of time on their hands.

I meant that as an hyperbole to define what the situation looks like at large. I am also afraid it's not just a handful of people - the cries for "unrealistic representation of women" have actually influenced artwork in relatively recent times.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I understand what you mean, but I'm questioning myself and thinking - "Do we really need to go there?". I understand that we can of course care about male suicide at the same time as we care about unrealistic depictions of men in the media, but I'm just wondering, "Should we actually really care about who has the bigger 'codpiece' (jesus wept) between Chris O' Donnell and George Clooney in the Batman film a few years back?". Should we actually be entertaining that nonsense?

Because a handful of people get their knickers in a twist about unrealistic depictions of women, we should equally be getting our knickers in a twist about unrealistic depictions of men? Come on now, must we really be so pathetic? What I'm saying is - we should be perfectly capable of ignoring people who as you say are trying to make an issue of being offended by women's breasts, because they're being silly. I would think the same of anyone who had an issue with men's 'codpieces', or their unrealistic depictions or whatever.

We shouldn't be teaching people of either gender that sort of insecurity is acceptable, and we certainly shouldn't be entertaining them and suggesting that men should be equally offended, or that we should be offended by people being silly. We should see it for what it is, and most people do - utter nonsense.

But quite the opposite, you see - I don't get the "the body of this superheroine/character offends me!" standpoint, and the fact the same exaggerations (if not worse - as I mentioned above) happen for men and isn't seen as so much of an issue....invalidates the whole concept for me.

If one can't understand how a drawing, 3d model or other work of art will take licenses and leaves from reality and feels offended or "insecure" about it, it's their problem - not the author's. It's normal for artists to represent the human form in what is, according to their vision, its "ideal" form - it's always been the case. Such form might change in time and depending on the artist's vision, but the concept stays.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I won't be hiding my Sláine comics, nor will I be turming off the "bouncing breasts" setting in Dead or Alive, nor will I be reducing my consumption of pornography because of the unrealistic representations of either women, or men, or sex, or anything else. I'll simply be ignoring anyone who tries to impress their insecurities upon society. Because that is the best way to deal with such people - ignore them, and eventually they realise how silly they're being (well, that's the theory anyway!).

Problem is, sometimes these people manage to impose their own fallacies on the rest of us - which they are increasingly being successful at. There are countries, western "modern" and "advanced" countries, where there is serious debate about making pornography illegal. Comics styles have been modified in the past to "avoid hurting sensitivities". Ignoring them would be wonderful - but it might not be entirely possible.

Gbear

I always see these complaints about media depictions of xyz as a sure sign of petty-mindedness - shifting the blame onto someone or something else because you have insecurities of your own.
We all have insecurities, of course, but they're for you to deal with inside your own head.

Now sometimes people go the other direction and there seems to have been a push in the US towards self-confidence bordering on delusion where everyone is a winner and is perfect in every way. That's not great either. You don't really want to instill the belief in people that it's ok to be obese or socially retarded either. Those are things that will make your life a lot shorter and more difficult and something that everyone can work on, if not fully solve.

In a nutshell, a normal functioning person should be able to shrug off such pressures whilst also having a positive attitude towards bettering themselves and being healthy (by normal human standards - not professional athlete or fictional superhero ones). If they can't do that they should go get help from someone to do it (this would intersect with the problem of mental health as well).

While we're all human and of course we're going to subject to insecurities in practice, if we're going to push towards something it shouldn't be trivial nonsense like trying to control the direction of body shapes in media (who actually gives a **** about that?) but rather being comfortable in our own skin, particularly if genuine effort is put into maintaining it, and being more resilient to mindless fluff about who's got the biggest tits or can lift the heaviest thing.
Pissing contests are pretty natural human activity, but that doesn't mean we can't work to make them less acceptable.

So, to the OP's point, we shouldn't be joining in the moaning about irrelevant bollocks - we should be denouncing such moaning for being so pointless in the first place. It's a negative, regressive, anti-artistic and ultimately self-centered approach to making people better themselves.

orubiru

I think I'd like to acknowledge this comic "Faith" as being an example of someone just getting out there and making the kind of comic book character that they want to see. http://www.mtv.com/news/2423809/faith-valiant-plus-size-superhero/

It's definitely not my kind of thing but the creators should be applauded for doing something other than just whining about other people's creations.

I do have some serious issues with the characters look though and the justifications for it.

One of the problems I have here is that in the depictions of Faith she clearly does not live a healthy lifestyle (cos she's actually quite fat) and I wonder at what point it's actually just as dangerous for kids to think it's OK if you don't understand how diet and exercise and calories work because you are fine just as you are.

The reason why athletes such as rugby players are rightly held up as role models is because these are people with drive and ambition who work hard to get what they want from life. Their look is a direct consequence of their discipline and dedication.

With fictional characters, sure some of the drawn/animated depictions of women in media are outrageous (see R. Mika from the upcoming Street Fighter game as an example) but they are clearly not meant to be realistic and I honestly wonder how much influence they actually have on people's mental well-being. If you are taking cartoon images THAT seriously then maybe it's time to back off and find something different to do with your time.

My general feeling here is that society would be in a better place if we educated people more on how to deal with their insecurities. Instead of reacting with "I am sick and tired of seeing these women like Black Widow and Catwoman in superhero movies with their unrealistic bodies" it would be better to acknowledge that these people have worked hard to look that way and there's nothing wrong with just accepting that. If you wanted to look like that you could so you either have to get to work or just let it go.

Can you imagine what it must be like to be a young lady starting to go on nights out with friends etc after 16 to 18 years of your family shoveling more potatoes, more pasta, more sauce, with a side of garlic bread into you? Then realizing that some of the other girls had parents who took care of their diet and encouraged them to do sports or just taught them about physical health in general? It can't be good for them.

Unfortunately the most vocal response to all this seems to be a negative reaction to people who are "fit and healthy". You are putting young girls in the position of looking at Black Widow in the Avengers and telling them that it's OK to react negatively to that "she's a lame comic book stereotype" or "she's portraying restrictive body norms" or such other rhetoric. How can that be good?

Of course as we get older a lot of us will lose out youthful figures and become a bit "out of shape" and that's kind of inevitable right?

When people say things like (in the case of the Faith character, from the article above) " younger readers who are getting into comics now, who’ll be able to see someone who looks like them from the onset" you have to be asking how in the hell have we found ourselves in a position where people, who maybe only stopped being fed by their parents a few years ago, are so ridiculously overweight?

The same goes for men. I see a lot of really fat young lads and wonder what the hell their parents must be thinking. If they DID want to look like Batman or Captain America they are sometimes leaving High School in such a state that it would take them 2 years or more to break up bad dieting habits and just get to a decent level of fitness, never mind get a "perfect" body.

It would be better overall if we were just honest about body depictions and listened to medical professionals regarding healthy and fit body types instead of using comic book depictions as a reference point.

gizmo555

smash wrote: »

In my 30's now and I have 17yr old cousins who were a lot bulkier and stronger two years ago than I've ever been, even at my fittest. All encouraged by their coaches in school who will give them rigorous weight training schedules and diets topped off with protein shakes and supplements.

And this is what that leads to:

Wexford chairman Diarmuid Devereux has revealed how four young players in the county have had double hip replacements.

The revelation comes after the Model County sacked their minor hurling manager Eddie Walsh for breaching the training ban rule for county minor teams. Under GAA rules, county minor teams aren't allowed to resume collective training until March 1.

Devereux said a stand had to be taken to protect young players from burnout.

"I know of four cases of players in their early twenties in Wexford who have had double hip-replacements. Players of that age should not be having serious problems with their hips," he said in the Irish Independent.

"I remember listening to Dr Pat O'Neill on the issue of burnout and the unreasonable demands placed on young players and it stuck me to the floor. As an Association, we have to face up to our responsibilities to our players, especially the younger ones who are playing in more than one grade."

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=206614

arayess

it is a crying shame that daddy pig is shown as a fat bubbling oaf while mammy pig is portrayed as a know-all practical goddess does everything right.
every single episode.


at least there was comedy value in the simpsons and homer was a hero of sorts. But in peppa pig none of this happens

furthermore it enforces the stereotype on the minds of the young.

Wibbs

H3llR4iser wrote: »

This is a very interesting concept. If you go to any gym, you will find at least a few women who train quite hard and have outstanding physiques - wide shoulders, toned chest, small waist and round hips. Those ladies are normal people like you, me and everyone else here and yet - within the limitations of reality, biology and physics - their appearance is not too far off what you see, say, Catwoman, Black Canary or Huntress depicted as.

The men, however...how many Wolverine, Thor or Barman-like bodies you see on non-steroid infused dudes? In many years, I yet have to see one.

It could be argued that this is because that women's ideal is easier to approach, or at least out of the gate more women naturally approach it, or have the capacity to do so. Outside of gyms entirely you'll see enough young women especially with that kind of physique. Now they may be "skinny fat" and staying in that shape without work will become increasingly difficult as the years pass, but as young slim women they're in the cultural ideal range. I'm skinny out of the box and wouldn't be close to fit, but if I was a woman with my body type I'd be considered within the ideal range. With NO work on my part. The most work I do is not cooking.

However to turn into a he-man superhero type I would require gargantuan amounts of work and let's face it in my case gargantuan amounts of chemical assistance. Even among bodybuilders who are extremely dedicated men(and women) their "perfect" look is extremely transitory, like a few days tops as they compete(after extreme diets and fat loss, even dehydration).

TL;DR? to turn an average young woman into closer to the ideal takes far less effort than to turn the average young man into closer to the ideal, hence we see much more of the former than the latter walking around, inside or outside gyms.

orubiru wrote: »

I think I'd like to acknowledge this comic "Faith" as being an example of someone just getting out there and making the kind of comic book character that they want to see. http://www.mtv.com/news/2423809/faith-valiant-plus-size-superhero/

It's definitely not my kind of thing but the creators should be applauded for doing something other than just whining about other people's creations.

I do have some serious issues with the characters look though and the justifications for it.

Actually for me it sums this stuff up nicely, take a look at her love interest. Major gym honed larger than Brad Pitt in Fight Club physique. Apparently "real women" don't like "curves" in their male fantasies… Oh and they have to be tall with it. Man you couldn't make it up and the lack of irony in the writers to boot. :pac:

Sleepy

I always find the notion that Brad Pitt was big in Fight Club amuzing, he wasn't at all, he was actually fairly scrawny, him "abs" were make-up and studio lighting. TBH, he was in far better shape in Thelma and Louise or Troy.

The "he must be on steroids" thing is totally overblown too. A guy can get big through lifting heavy things and eating lots of protein, it's actually very simple to do cleanly and anabolic drugs are an accelerator to, rather than a replacement for, hard work and discipline. Note that I said it's simple rather than easy: either way, you'll have to put in the hard work and discipline yourself in terms of diet. For younger guys, who have naturally higher testosterone levels, it's a lot easier.

I'd argue that while the female ideal might be easier for young women to attain, men have it far easier in our 30's and beyond as, while the basics are still the same (move more, eat less), we don't suffer the ravages of childbirth.

challengemaster

H3llR4iser wrote: »

This is a very interesting concept. If you go to any gym, you will find at least a few women who train quite hard and have outstanding physiques - wide shoulders, toned chest, small waist and round hips. Those ladies are normal people like you, me and everyone else here and yet - within the limitations of reality, biology and physics - their appearance is not too far off what you see, say, Catwoman, Black Canary or Huntress depicted as.

The men, however...how many Wolverine, Thor or Barman-like bodies you see on non-steroid infused dudes? In many years, I yet have to see one.

I still can't even wrap my head around why this is an issue. You're complaining that comicbook superheros aren't accurate representations of the general populus... Seems like a bit of a "well yeah, duh" moment to me. Their super powers aren't accurate in terms of reality, biology or physics either - but don't let that stop you.

It's also got a lot to do with perception of power to not leave the audience scratching their heads. If someone has super-strength, then you expect them to look like they're strong.

It'd be more comical rather than comicbook if they were all fat and balding.

Gaygooner

This isn't the place for this sort of comment. Please read the charter before posting again.

H3llR4iser

Wibbs wrote: »

It could be argued that this is because that women's ideal is easier to approach, or at least out of the gate more women naturally approach it, or have the capacity to do so. Outside of gyms entirely you'll see enough young women especially with that kind of physique. Now they may be "skinny fat" and staying in that shape without work will become increasingly difficult as the years pass, but as young slim women they're in the cultural ideal range. I'm skinny out of the box and wouldn't be close to fit, but if I was a woman with my body type I'd be considered within the ideal range. With NO work on my part. The most work I do is not cooking.

Agreed, however the body type I referred to is slightly different - not the "skinny girl" type, if you look at some of the most criticized comics characters, they are built more like fitness models than lingerie models - wider shoulders, visible muscle tone in the arms/legs etc.

And just like in your example above, it is indeed the body shape most women naturally gravitate towards if they follow a healthy diet and do proper exercise with complete workouts including weights, rather than unbalanced "all aerobics and nothing else" fad workouts.

Sleepy wrote: »

I always find the notion that Brad Pitt was big in Fight Club amuzing, he wasn't at all, he was actually fairly scrawny, him "abs" were make-up and studio lighting. TBH, he was in far better shape in Thelma and Louise or Troy.

He was just skinny in the movie, agreed. If I suddenly and magically lost 15kg tomorrow morning even I, of all people, would have a ripped sixpack!

challengemaster wrote: »

I still can't even wrap my head around why this is an issue. You're complaining that comicbook superheros aren't accurate representations of the general populus... Seems like a bit of a "well yeah, duh" moment to me. Their super powers aren't accurate in terms of reality, biology or physics either - but don't let that stop you.

It's also got a lot to do with perception of power to not leave the audience scratching their heads. If someone has super-strength, then you expect them to look like they're strong.

But if you read the whole posts:p, you'd know my issue is with the general stupidity of pointing out "unrealistic" female bodies in works of fantasy/art and, even more to the point, with the completely shameless double standards - not the depictions themselves...

challengemaster wrote: »

It'd be more comical rather than comicbook if they were all fat and balding.

Yes; these drawings, models and whatnot, depict fantasy people involved in extreme feats of strength, stamina and ability. It is obvious, to me, that they'd be in peak physical conditions and for this reason I find the whole base idea behind this "Faith" comic to be completely ridiculous - without going into total, bottomless nerd-dom discussions (e.g. "flight burns a lot of calories"):D.

Bringing it into the real world, it's as if people complained that there isn't an obese footballer who's as good as Messi or Ronaldo, or that many women athletes do actually have great bodies.

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually for me it sums this stuff up nicely, take a look at her love interest. Major gym honed larger than Brad Pitt in Fight Club physique. Apparently "real women" don't like "curves" in their male fantasies… Oh and they have to be tall with it. Man you couldn't make it up and the lack of irony in the writers to boot.

Perfectly to the point with my initial observation, and sums up the double standards issue: if the roles were reversed, with a nerdy, overweight "hero" going after the hot supermodel type it would have caused, in the best case, hilarity...

orubiru

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Yes; these drawings, models and whatnot, depict fantasy people involved in extreme feats of strength, stamina and ability. It is obvious, to me, that they'd be in peak physical conditions and for this reason I find the whole base idea behind this "Faith" comic to be completely ridiculous - without going into total, bottomless nerd-dom discussions (e.g. "flight burns a lot of calories"):D.

Bringing it into the real world, it's as if people complained that there isn't an obese footballer who's as good as Messi or Ronaldo, or that many women athletes do actually have great bodies.

Perfectly to the point with my initial observation, and sums up the double standards issue: if the roles were reversed, with a nerdy, overweight "hero" going after the hot supermodel type it would have caused, in the best case, hilarity...

While I find the reasoning behind "Faith" to be a bit ridiculous and a bit dishonest I think that there has to be at least some acknowledgement that the creators have at least gone out there and created a character that appeals to them.

After all, one of the points often made when people complain about depictions of women in media is "well, why don't you just go and make your own comic/movies/games then!"

I can definitely agree that there's a double standard there when we see she is able to get the guy with the "ideal body" in a comic that is supposed to be in opposition to "restrictive body norms".

However, I feel a bit guilty about holding the opinion that if people want fat superheroes then they should create their own and then immediately blasting the creators for doing just that.

I think that maybe guys, in general just don't care? To be honest, I'd be kind of embarrassed if one of my friends was ranting on about the bodies of Batman or Captain America and I'd be equally embarrassed to find out they had made blogs or youtube videos calling out "the industry" for depicting men in such a way. I think that most of us would just say "don't be daft" and that would be the end of that.

On the other hand I think when girls speak up about thin models or big boobed comic book characters they get a lot of support from their friends, both online and in real life. Maybe it's because a lot of people work really hard to convince young women that they are being objectified by society and by media.

Maybe the double standard is that society says to men "you are so dumb for complaining about this" but says to women "yes, you have a legitimate grievance here"?

H3llR4iser

orubiru wrote: »

While I find the reasoning behind "Faith" to be a bit ridiculous and a bit dishonest I think that there has to be at least some acknowledgement that the creators have at least gone out there and created a character that appeals to them.

orubiru wrote: »

I can definitely agree that there's a double standard there when we see she is able to get the guy with the "ideal body" in a comic that is supposed to be in opposition to "restrictive body norms".

However, I feel a bit guilty about holding the opinion that if people want fat superheroes then they should create their own and then immediately blasting the creators for doing just that.

Oh yes, good that they actually did something. Kudos - but as you say, the whole thing falls flat on its face when she has the "Big Jim" love interest.

orubiru wrote: »

I think that maybe guys, in general just don't care? To be honest, I'd be kind of embarrassed if one of my friends was ranting on about the bodies of Batman or Captain America and I'd be equally embarrassed to find out they had made blogs or youtube videos calling out "the industry" for depicting men in such a way. I think that most of us would just say "don't be daft" and that would be the end of that.

On the other hand I think when girls speak up about thin models or big boobed comic book characters they get a lot of support from their friends, both online and in real life. Maybe it's because a lot of people work really hard to convince young women that they are being objectified by society and by media.

Maybe the double standard is that society says to men "you are so dumb for complaining about this" but says to women "yes, you have a legitimate grievance here"?

Where I see the double standards is that there's continuous crying foul about models, actresses, comic/videogame/cartoon female characters proposing "wrong models" and "being objectified", while the exact same happens for men. For anybody with a functional brain cell, it's immediately apparent that it works both ways, but a lot of people choose to ignore that and only see what they want - maybe, as you suggest, to fulfill an agenda. Yet, they get a lot of attention and manage to influence the authors - there have been numerous "toning downs" in recent times.

Not for a moment I believe that "we", as men, should go the same way; But responding to the "real women don't look like that!" whinges with "real men ain't mountainous beefcakes either!" would be a great start

One eyed Jack

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Not for a moment I believe that "we", as men, should go the same way; But responding to the "real women don't look like that!" whinges with "real men ain't mountainous beefcakes either!" would be a great start

The bit in bold, I can completely agree with. The second part - respond to a whinge with a whinge? Can we not just ignore them and carry on with our lives because we have better things to be doing?


Just on the whole 'unrealistic muscle groups' thing, I just got my wife to send me on a pic from my brothers Facebook profile (it's possibly the only one he's not wearing a thong, nobody needs to see that :pac:), but there's no steroids or anything involved there. When he bronzes up for competitions, well, it looks repulsive IMO, there's nothing attractive about it.

I can admire the discipline it takes to achieve those results, but it's not something I would ever want to aspire to myself tbh.