Muslim views on the West attacking ISIS.

RoyalCelt

I've been reading a lot of heated debates over the past 24 hours for obvious reasons.

One argument has stuck out though. Initially it began with people pointing out the lines in the Quaran that state it's OK to kill people etc etc.

But then Muslims pointed out the context which they're written, and that view point after looking into it I sort of agree. They went on and pointed out how ISIS don't represent them and they want them gone. ISIS kills more of them than they kill westerners. They hate them. Fair point.

But many of these same people would then say that the West brings this on itself through its military actions in Syria and other past conflicts. However without support of the West and it's middle eastern allies these people won't be able to defeat ISIS.

So why are they so against the West attacking ISIS in Syria? Surely they should be supporting the West in their actions.

You can't have it both ways so which is it.

donaghs

It's a good question, but only really relevant to Sunni. Since ISIS don't consider Shia to be Muslims, or worthy of living, you can guess the answer there.

KingBrian2

Muslims are not unified some support the west a lot don't and don't even bother with the Islamists that want to forget the rest of the world exists. A lot of this has got to do with the fact that Islamic societies are very bitter and hostile to neighbouring cultures like the Jews of Israel or the Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists of India. Islam needs to modernise and confront the traditionalist in their own back gardens.

Disgruntled Badger

And to think we used to say the troubles were complicated. The US' key ally Saudi is funding the Mosques in Europe that breed Whabbist IS fighters that target the west. It's all so orwellian really....the constant war in the East preserving the status quo by keeping that threat of instability. I don't think the law abiding Muslims living in Europe have any influence one way or another... IS hate them, just as much, or even more, than us..

Taltos

Mod Note
Just a nudg away from politics please.
Remember the forum is here to
Per charters first line:

This forum is for the discussion of the religion of Islam only.

So as that pertains to the original OP that's fine, but if the thread continues down the politics route we'll find another more suitable home for it.

Thanks.

RoyalCelt

donaghs wrote: »

It's a good question, but only really relevant to Sunni. Since ISIS don't consider Shia to be Muslims, or worthy of living, you can guess the answer there.

Well it's a relief to read 85-90% of Muslims are sunni then. Are most extremists Shia Muslims?

It would explain why the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful if true.

Stheno

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Well it's a relief to read 85-90% of Muslims are sunni then. Are most extremists Shia Muslims?

It would explain why the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful if true.

I think you have this backwards in terms of extremists.

ISIS are Sunni, not Shia, Shia Muslims are about 7.5% of the total poplulation of Muslims in the world. Extremist Sunnis consider Shia Muslims to be apostates, who should be executed.

Hezbollah are Shia they are based in Palestine/Isreal/Iran

ISIS come from the Wahhabi sect who are Saudi for the most part.

Frank Grimes

Stheno wrote: »

Hezbollah are Shia they are based in Palestine/Isreal/Iran

They are Lebanese and have support from Iran.

Stheno

Frank Grimes wrote: »

They are Lebanese and have support from Iran.

Sorry, I should have said that they are most active in Israel/Palestine, supported by Iran, and based in Lebanon, where they have plenty of influence.

Apologies

Tis most complicated

Frank Grimes

Stheno wrote: »

Tis most complicated

Certainly is - they are fighting in Syria too.

leo2a6

RoyalCelt wrote: »

However without support of the West and it's middle eastern allies these people won't be able to defeat ISIS.

U got this one totally wrong.
IS is a direct consequence of West intervention in ME.
And IS only survives thanks to the West intervention in ME.
Btw I'm muslim and can tell u than 95+% of muslims are opposed to IS, and majority of the rest support IS by realpolitik, ie they chose IS as a lesser evil...

leo2a6

Stheno wrote: »

ISIS come from the Wahhabi sect who are Saudi for the most part.

wahabi sect doesnt exist, just a derogatory term parroted by people who doesnt even know the name of the founder of 'wahabism'...

Stheno

leo2a6 wrote: »

U got this one totally wrong.
IS is a direct consequence of West intervention in ME.
And IS only survives thanks to the West intervention in ME.
Btw I'm muslim and can tell u than 95+% of muslims are opposed to IS, and majority of the rest support IS by realpolitik, ie they chose IS as a lesser evil...

Most surveys in the West indicate that support for IS is far higher than 5%, up to 25% in some cases, do you disagree with this?

leo2a6 wrote: »

wahabi sect doesnt exist, just a derogatory term parroted by people who doesnt even know the name of the founder of 'wahabism'...

So are you saying that wahhabism does or does not exist? Or just nit picking at my use of language?Do you understand the meaning of the word sect? Do you agree or disagree that Wahhabism is an extreme/orthodox form of Islam?

leo2a6

Stheno wrote: »

Most surveys in the West indicate that support for IS is far higher than 5%, up to 25% in some cases, do you disagree with this?



So are you saying that wahhabism does or does not exist? Or just nit picking at my use of language?Do you understand the meaning of the word sect? Do you agree or disagree that Wahhabism is an extreme/orthodox form of Islam?

I disagree with ur figures, many surveys done across MENA show less than 5%.
Majority of people killed by IS are sunni muslims.
Wahabism does not exist indeed.

dr.fuzzenstein

leo2a6 wrote: »

U got this one totally wrong.
IS is a direct consequence of West intervention in ME.
And IS only survives thanks to the West intervention in ME.
Btw I'm muslim and can tell u than 95+% of muslims are opposed to IS, and majority of the rest support IS by realpolitik, ie they chose IS as a lesser evil...

I absolutely do not doubt that the vast majority of muslims would be opposed to IS, as would any right thinking person, but I dread to think what IS would be a lesser evil to.

leo2a6

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I dread to think what IS would be a lesser evil to.

lesser evil to starvation, rapes, torture, tnt barrel bombs, sarin gaz, iranian death squads, shia sectarian militias, Assads shabihas.

U probably ignore what sunni syrians and iraqis are living under
Assad/Maliki/Iran.
IS are total nutcases, but if u're sunni and pretend to accept their rules/leadership, they let u live, not the case with the iranian axis...

IS are less dangerous than Assad/Maliki/Iran for Levant's sunnis.

rockatansky

leo2a6 wrote: »

IS are less dangerous than Assad/Maliki/Iran for Levant's sunnis.

Utter bollocks. So are all of the Refugees fleeing from Syria just Shias?

feargale

leo2a6 wrote: »

Wahabism does not exist indeed.

Do you accept that there ia a branch of or movement within Sunni Islam called Muwahhidun or Salafi, which some people incorrectly refer to as Wahabism?

leo2a6

rockatansky wrote: »

Utter bollocks. So are all of the Refugees fleeing from Syria just Shias?

no, but who said so ?

Cedrus

leo2a6 wrote: »

wahabi sect doesnt exist, just a derogatory term parroted by people who doesnt even know the name of the founder of 'wahabism'...

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab was a 16th century (CE) Imam, the Royal House of Saud have long aligned themselves with his retro orthodox fundamentalism. You may be strictly correct to say that there is no Wahabi sect but it would be tough to be a Shia, or moderate Sunni muslim in Saudi Arabia.

leo2a6

feargale wrote: »

Do you accept that there ia a branch of or movement within Sunni Islam called Muwahhidun or Salafi, which some people incorrectly refer to as Wahabism?

Muwahidun means monotheists, if u're muslim u're monotheist.
Salafism is following Islam rigorly. Thats KSA Islam. Not ISIS one.
I always find it funny when 'experts' call IS & KSA both 'wahabis' while KSA sees IS as heretics and fight them and IS sees KSA as non-muslims and fight them as well.

leo2a6

Cedrus wrote: »

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab wa 16th century (CE) Imam, the Royal House of Saud have long aligned themselves with his retro orthodox fundamentalism. You may be strictly correct to say that there is no Wahabi sect but it would be tough to be a Shia, or moderate Sunni muslim in Saudi Arabia.

U have never been to KSA. U speak about something u don't know.
Ireland is full of saudi students. I studied with many of them. All were moderate sunnis or shias. Many female saudi students as well. They get 1800 euros per month + full tuition fees paid by KSA government.
So if KSA gov is against shias or moderates, why pay a fortune for them to study ?
Many shias officers in army and security forces. Aramco, the big saudi oil company is full of shias, americans, egyptians, u name it...

Official doctrine of KSA is quite strict, but millions dont follow it, even in government. Does the KSA king just wear a beard ?

dr.fuzzenstein

leo2a6 wrote: »

lesser evil to starvation, rapes, torture, tnt barrel bombs, sarin gaz, iranian death squads, shia sectarian militias, Assads shabihas.

U probably ignore what sunni syrians and iraqis are living under
Assad/Maliki/Iran.
IS are total nutcases, but if u're sunni and pretend to accept their rules/leadership, they let u live, not the case with the iranian axis...

IS are less dangerous than Assad/Maliki/Iran for Levant's sunnis.

I feel for the innocent population who are torn between bad and worse options. We like to demonise entire populations, without thinking that a lot of innocent people who have nothing to do with all that are caught up between all that hate and violence. Not ignoring anyone, I feel sorry for innocent people who have to live in a warzone and if they do escape, they are looked at as terrorists because people cannot make the distinction. It's a sad state of affairs and no one comes out of this looking good.

Isaiah

Would you condemn last nights attacks as evil leo2a6?

MPFGLB

First you say ...

IS is a direct consequence of West intervention in ME.
And IS only survives thanks to the West intervention in ME.

And then its

leo2a6 wrote: »

lesser evil to starvation, rapes, torture, tnt barrel bombs, sarin gaz, iranian death squads, shia sectarian militias, Assads shabihas.

U probably ignore what sunni syrians and iraqis are living under
Assad/Maliki/Iran.
IS are total nutcases, but if u're sunni and pretend to accept their rules/leadership, they let u live, not the case with the iranian axis...

IS are less dangerous than Assad/Maliki/Iran for Levant's sunnis.

These statements take responsibility for their creation and continued mission from ISIS themselves and place it on other shoulders ......or takes responsibility from those supporting them either explicitly or tacitly... It if not justifying the existence and mission of ISIS at least find excuses for it

And its this rhetoric that is constantly spewd out that paints Muslims with a picture of suspicion for many in the West.

It goes like this .."We deplore ISIS but hey they only exist because of the west" thus ignoring that islamic extremists were attacking the west before ISIS including New York .
or

"its really the Shias (or Sunnis) fault " thus perpetuating the sectarian animosity and divide.( Many Shia under say Sadam where brutally murdered and tortured but did they create a sick barbaric caliphate with a mission to destroy the west...in fact show me a people that has not suffered at the hands of another religious group)

I am not saying that the West didn't make mistakes, (especially invading Iraq) or Russia (afterall it was their invasion of Afganistan that set Osama Bin Laden on his path, thus starting a process that eventually lead to ISIS) but to take responsibility as you chose to do from the shoulders of grown men who chose to rape 9 year old girls, murder homosexuals, behead aid workers and place it somewhere else is one of the biggest problem we have with this whole situation. There is a mentality that reeks of victimhood and allows so many to feel justified in their murderous rages.
This level of excuse is what turns so many against Muslims
And what of the silent majority who do nothing do stop the killing that is perpetrated in their name. If the west is wrong what are Muslims around the world actually doing to STOP ISIS or indeed stop their numbers running off to join ISIS

Its is time this anachronistic archaic religion and all others were sidelined from our culture . What a man choses to believe should be kept to the privacy of his own home and be between him and his God.
(All religion imo are man made constructs whose main purpose seems to be to differentiate and divide people)
I should not have to listen to another word about it and all its outdated babble.
And I certainly should not have to see is used as a tool, whatever branch to justify any killing of anyone anywhere.
(and before you say its not used to justify killing look at your own statements above blaming Shia for ISIS)

Cedrus

leo2a6 wrote: »

U have never been to KSA. U speak about something u don't know.

You have absolutely no idea where I have been or what I know but I'd put money on the table that I am at least twice your age, have lived in three times as many countries as you. <Mod snip - please report to support, don't descend to personal attacks - Taltos> .

You may have valid things to say but you choose to abuse instead of inform.

leo2a6

MPFGLB wrote: »

It if not justifying the existence and mission of ISIS at least find excuses for it

What a lot of BS. If u push the wall, the wall will push u back, to every action there is a reaction, newton 3rd law, simple as.
Simple statement, not justifying, not excusing, just explaining how secular moustached gin-drinking Baathi Iraqi became IS.
Now I know that many people like to see geopolitics as a cow-boy movie with intrinsically good people and intrinsically bad people.
But it doesnt work that way. Without Versailles treaty, there is no Hitler,
without US-Iranian invasion of Iraq, there is no IS. Simple as.

silverharp

I must say if I was French I'd be a little piqued if there were up to 2 million people in their country who were chuckling away to themselves this weekend

leo2a6

Cedrus wrote: »

You have absolutely no idea where I have been or what I know but I'd put money on the table that I am at least twice your age, have lived in three times as many countries as you. <Mod snip - please report to support, don't descend to personal attacks - Taltos> .

You may have valid things to say but you choose to abuse instead of inform.

No personal attacks there, ur post just showed u know nothing about KSA, u may not like it but if u think that it is hard in ksa to be moderate in ksa, u ignore all about that country. As soon as u arrive at Jeddah airport, u see people in jeans smoking, people not even praying, etc...

leo2a6

silverharp wrote: »

I must say if I was French I'd be a little piqued if there were up to 2 million people in their country who were chuckling away to themselves this weekend

where does it say that up to 2 million people in their country are chuckling away to themselves this weekend ?

Taltos

Mod Note
Final warning guys. This has moved beyond the realm of the forum now and is just being used as a platform. Not on.
leo - we both know that the infographic above doesn't say 2Mil are throwing themselves away, I'm trying to be lenient here but there's only so far I'm willing to go.

Remember, this forum is here for the discussion of the religion of Islam only.

If anyone has a problem with that or with our charter in general then I suggest you post elsewhere as I've no hesitation in removing posting rights of posters who are intent on having an argument for it's own sake. Point scoring isn't welcome, education and enlightenment are.

MPFGLB

leo2a6 wrote: »

What a lot of BS. If u push the wall, the wall will push u back, to every action there is a reaction, newton 3rd law, simple as.
Simple statement, not justifying, not excusing, just explaining how secular moustached gin-drinking Baathi Iraqi became IS.
Now I know that many people like to see geopolitics as a cow-boy movie with intrinsically good people and intrinsically bad people.
But it doesnt work that way. Without Versailles treaty, there is no Hitler,
without US-Iranian invasion of Iraq, there is no IS. Simple as.

Now that is BS....Event and situations do not make people/groups....they reveal them
Lesson 1A1 of any psychology course

But you go on blaming the west for Islamic Fascism

It helps to keep Muslims all over the world paralyzed and justifying in doing nothing to end ISIS and sectarian violence in ME

leo2a6

MPFGLB wrote: »

But you go on blaming the west for Islamic Fascism

It helps to keep Muslims all over the world paralyzed and justifying in doing nothing to end ISIS and sectarian violence in ME

Muslims dont do nothing, they bomb IS, they arm their opponents despite US blocking weapons for the FSA at jordanian and turkish boders, terrorists get beheaded in KSA, arab countries collaborate with US/EU in counter-terrorism, what more could they do ? Turkey wanted to intervene militarily on the ground in Syria but US/Russia stoped them.

If u prefer to believe that extremism is born out of nothing, whatever, it's ur right...

MPFGLB

leo2a6 wrote: »

Muslims dont do nothing, they bomb IS, they arm their opponents despite US blocking weapons for the FSA at jordanian and turkish boders, terrorists get beheaded in KSA, arab countries collaborate with US/EU in counter-terrorism, what more could they do ? Turkey wanted to intervene militarily on the ground in Syria but US/Russia stoped them.

If u prefer to believe that extremism is born out of nothing, whatever, it's ur right...

I don't prefer to believe extremism was born out of nothing .it is a complicated journey...but I do not want to jump on the bandwagon (that was you 1st contribution) and put responsibility solely on the west

You say what more could Muslims do ? Well I would like to see a more proactive movement of muslims in US, UK, Indonesia , Europe , etc ,etc collectively and proactively working to stop ISIS and condemning all violence in their name. I would like all Muslims who talk of brotherhood to create an international group willing to defeat ISIS. I would like to see more rhetoric on what they stand for and not what they stand against on the world stage.
I would like to see them defend their religion as a religion of peace against the extremists. I would like to see their leadership in this crisis

And when that is done I would like all religions to be dis established

leo2a6

MPFGLB wrote: »

I don't prefer to believe extremism was born out of nothing .it is a complicated journey...but I do not want to jump on the bandwagon (that was you 1st contribution) and put responsibility solely on the west

You say what more could Muslims do ? Well I would like to see a more proactive movement of muslims in US, UK, Indonesia , Europe , etc ,etc collectively and proactively working to stop ISIS and condemning all violence in their name. I would like all Muslims who talk of brotherhood to create an international group willing to defeat ISIS. I would like to see more rhetoric on what they stand for and not what they stand against on the world stage.
I would like to see them defend their religion as a religion of peace against the extremists. I would like to see their leadership in this crisis

And when that is done I would like all religions to be dis established

every single violent act is condemned immediately by majority of muslims and their institutions, even if not shown by the media. Muslim countries actively fighting IS and other form of religious extremism. Muslims are first victims of IS.


http://islamireland.ie/news/press-release-major-islamic-organizations-in-ireland-condemn-paris-shootings/

alwald

leo2a6 wrote:

Muwahidun means monotheists, if u're muslim u're monotheist. Salafism is following Islam rigorly. Thats KSA Islam. Not ISIS one. I always find it funny when 'experts' call IS & KSA both 'wahabis' while KSA sees IS as heretics and fight them and IS sees KSA as non-muslims and fight them as well.

Have ISIS been fighting KSA or vice versa? Not to my knowledge, KSA are probably financing ISIS if you ask me.

MS1962

Taltos wrote: »

Mod Note
Final warning guys. This has moved beyond the realm of the forum now and is just being used as a platform. Not on.
leo - we both know that the infographic above doesn't say 2Mil are throwing themselves away, I'm trying to be lenient here but there's only so far I'm willing to go.

Remember, this forum is here for the discussion of the religion of Islam only.

If anyone has a problem with that or with our charter in general then I suggest you post elsewhere as I've no hesitation in removing posting rights of posters who are intent on having an argument for it's own sake. Point scoring isn't welcome, education and enlightenment are.

You can't artificially separate Islam 'the religion' from its inherent political objectives. The Islamic system is intrinsically political - the aim of Islam is to subject the entire world to Sharia Law by hook or by crook. Well, now the entire world is slowly, slowly waking up to the reality of Islam and more and more people are researching what it is and reading for themselves rather than just what the BBC tells them. And no, I am not challenging/commenting on your moderation - you made a contributing comment which is wrong on this thread and I am challenging it. Hopefully you can take the correction. ;-)

Taltos

Mod Note

It is never acceptable to challenge a mod on thread anywhere in boards.
I'm taking that as the final call here guys. Shame as some valid and differing points of view were being raised and discussed in a reasonable fashion.



Update: For those asking for a stance on the attacks refer you to this press release
http://www.islaminireland.com/news/press-release-condemning-paris-shootings/