Leap card not scanned, ticket inspector question

JohnPPP

If I've a leap card with credit on it, but the BE bus i get on doesn't have a card scanner, the driver usually waves you ahead to hop on. Question is: if a ticket inspector checks what could happen?

Bare in mind their is a balance on the card, but the driver is unable to charge you

Pinch Flat

JohnPPP wrote: »

If I've a leap card with credit on it, but the BE bus i get on doesn't have a card scanner, the driver usually waves you ahead to hop on. Question is: if a ticket inspector checks what could happen?

Bare in mind their is a balance on the card, but the driver is unable to charge you

Sounds like you haven't paid then? Surely the card needs to be read to Deduct the fare?

foggy_lad

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Sounds like you haven't paid then? Surely the card needs to be read to Deduct the fare?

surely if there is no card reader on the bus then BE can't charge to the leap card and must allow the person travel free?

All routes wheere leap is accepted should only have buses with leap card readers, it is not the customers fault if the driver/company is unable to accept the leap card.

Gatling

But surly it's the same as getting on and keeping your fare in your pocket and when challenged by an inspector saying oh I've my fare in my pocket I'll pay later

Stheno

Gatling wrote: »

But surly it's the same as getting on and keeping your fare in your pocket and when challenged by an inspector saying oh I've my fare in my pocket I'll pay later

I got a dublin bus today and couldn't use the auto scanner as I was only going a few stops.

The scanner that deducts for a few stops wasn't working so the driver waved me on.

In that circumstance I'd imagine that as they've waved you on you are fine?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Gatling wrote: »

But surly it's the same as getting on and keeping your fare in your pocket and when challenged by an inspector saying oh I've my fare in my pocket I'll pay later

How is it? The bus driver can't take payment, he's not evading it.

OP, I'd imagine you'd have to tell the inspector and he'd check with the driver & common sense would prevail.

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

But surly it's the same as getting on and keeping your fare in your pocket and when challenged by an inspector saying oh I've my fare in my pocket I'll pay later

no, it is the same as getting on a service that should take one payment type but being told they can only accept another payment type.

RustyNut

Gatling wrote: »

But surly it's the same as getting on and keeping your fare in your pocket and when challenged by an inspector saying oh I've my fare in my pocket I'll pay later

But payment was presented in the form of a leap card, payment was refused.

ted1

foggy_lad wrote: »

surely if there is no card reader on the bus then BE can't charge to the leap card and must allow the person travel free?

All routes wheere leap is accepted should only have buses with leap card readers, it is not the customers fault if the driver/company is unable to accept the leap card.

It's the customers responsibility to have a valid ticket.

Stheno

ted1 wrote: »

It's the customers responsibility to have a valid ticket.

IMo they do, but the company are unable to process it electronically?

Vic_08

JohnPPP wrote: »

If I've a leap card with credit on it, but the BE bus i get on doesn't have a card scanner, the driver usually waves you ahead to hop on. Question is: if a ticket inspector checks what could happen?

Bare in mind their is a balance on the card, but the driver is unable to charge you

You will be fine in that situation. Leap is accepted on all services on routes where it is advertised. If the bus used does not have a working validator then you will not be asked to pay cash if you produce a Leap card.

It is your responsibility to have enough credit on the card to pay the fare, if in this situation you were later found to have tendered a Leap with insufficient credit to purchase a ticket to cover your travel you could be prosecuted for fare evasion.

I know from experience a few switched-on commuters figured out which services would usually have a non-leap bus and used it to their advantage, TBH it is Bus Eireann's problem for not properly equipping their fleet and the coaches they hire-in from other operators.

ShoulderChip

ted1 wrote: »

It's the customers responsibility to have a valid ticket.

and if the driver told you he didn't take cash only stamps (legal tender in Ireland) would you take the same approach and get off the bus?

come on.

ted1

Stheno wrote: »

IMo they do, but the company are unable to process it electronically?

No they don't have a valid ticket.

efb

BE driver informed me, if you have a leap card, and their card reader isn't working, you travel free. Their fault.

runawaybishop

efb wrote: »

BE driver informed me, if you have a leap card, and their card reader isn't working, you travel free. Their fault.

That's just part or their t+cs, same as IR. They aren't obliged to offer that though.

Vic_08

ted1 wrote: »

No they don't have a valid ticket.

If there is enough credit on the card (a fact not verifiable by the driver so the assumption is that they do) then they do have a valid ticket, the inability to process it is the company's problem.

It would be completely unacceptable to demand cash from or deny travel to someone who may not have access to cash or who may end up out of pocket because of different fare rates if they have chosen to put credit on a Leap card to pay for their travel.

I cannot imagine any transport company would be stupid enough to risk the bad publicity or claim for damages or worse if they refused travel to someone in that situation.

A company in the UK got a torrent of bad publicity after a young woman was raped walking home late at night because she was refused travel due to not having enough money for the fare. If that situation happened and the passenger had in fact presented appropriate payment and was refused because of the bus company's failure it would be a big legal issue as well.

Victor

Strictly speaking, if a bus doesn't have the equipment, they can insist you pay cash.

ShoulderChip wrote: »

stamps (legal tender in Ireland)

Stamps are not legal tender. I have strong doubts they ever were.

Victor

Vic_08 wrote: »

If there is enough credit on the card (a fact not verifiable by the driver so the assumption is that they do)

Drivers can do a balance check.

then they do have a valid ticket

Leap Card is not a ticket. the ticket is the electronic token stored on the Leap Card.

Stheno

Victor wrote: »

Drivers can do a balance check.

Driver I had today did nothing, just say "oh the scanner is not working, go on ahead, you're fine"

foggy_lad

ted1 wrote: »

It's the customers responsibility to have a valid ticket.

ted1 wrote: »

No they don't have a valid ticket.

The company have a responsibility to sell all the range of tickets they claim are available and that includes using Leap cards.

Vic_08 wrote: »

If there is enough credit on the card (a fact not verifiable by the driver so the assumption is that they do) then they do have a valid ticket, the inability to process it is the company's problem.

It would be completely unacceptable to demand cash from or deny travel to someone who may not have access to cash or who may end up out of pocket because of different fare rates if they have chosen to put credit on a Leap card to pay for their travel.

I cannot imagine any transport company would be stupid enough to risk the bad publicity or claim for damages or worse if they refused travel to someone in that situation.

A company in the UK got a torrent of bad publicity after a young woman was raped walking home late at night because she was refused travel due to not having enough money for the fare. If that situation happened and the passenger had in fact presented appropriate payment and was refused because of the bus company's failure it would be a big legal issue as well.

I would imagine the NTA might have something to say to the management of Bus Eireann, Veolia, Dublin Bus or Irish Rail if they started to refuse or charge cash to people presenting leap cards where the reader is not present or not working.

It would surely be seen as the company not supporting the Leap Card or the NTA.

Vic_08

Victor wrote: »

Drivers can do a balance check.

Not without a working ticket machine which is the whole point of the thread. :rolleyes:

Victor wrote: »

Leap Card is not a ticket. the ticket is the electronic token stored on the Leap Card.

Without a machine to read the card there is no way to know what they do or do not have on the card, sometimes passengers do not even know themselves.

It is very simple. No Working Leap Machine+Passenger With Leap Card=Go Ahead.

Avada

Gatling wrote: »

But surly it's the same as getting on and keeping your fare in your pocket and when challenged by an inspector saying oh I've my fare in my pocket I'll pay later

No, it's the same as getting on a dublin bus and the fare box being jammed so they can't accept your fare. I have also seen this happen, you travel free.

Victor

foggy_lad wrote: »

I would imagine the NTA might have something to say to the management of Bus Eireann, Veolia, Dublin Bus or Irish Rail if they started to refuse or charge cash to people presenting leap cards where the reader is not present or not working.

They will also have something to say if they don't minimise their losses.

RustyNut

Vic_08 wrote: »

Go Ahead.

Ah the good ol days of bus conductors on cie buses.

How much is it into town mister?

That will be 50p sonny.

Here's 30p Go Ahead.

Thanks. and every one was happy.

Except cie.

Trampas

Vic_08 wrote: »

You will be fine in that situation. Leap is accepted on all services on routes where it is advertised. If the bus used does not have a working validator then you will not be asked to pay cash if you produce a Leap card.

It is your responsibility to have enough credit on the card to pay the fare, if in this situation you were later found to have tendered a Leap with insufficient credit to purchase a ticket to cover your travel you could be prosecuted for fare evasion.

I know from experience a few switched-on commuters figured out which services would usually have a non-leap bus and used it to their advantage, TBH it is Bus Eireann's problem for not properly equipping their fleet and the coaches they hire-in from other operators.

Keep it quiet about the free buses

If you get the free one in the morning you can usually get 2 days out of the 24 hour pass as a result if you time the return journey well.

Singles home would cost you overall more

Carawaystick

runawaybishop wrote: »

That's just part or their t+cs, same as IR. They aren't obliged to offer that though.

I'd say they are obliged. If they advertise they take leap on a service, and don't
that's a misleading business practise and is illegal.

runawaybishop

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'd say they are obliged. If they advertise they take leap on a service, and don't
that's a misleading business practise and is illegal.

No, they aren't obliged but they aren't stupid enough to refuse people transport to work because their equipment is faulty. Nothing illegal about having faulty equipment.

Irish rail have a similar condition in that if you cant pay after making a reasonable effort, you can board the train and pay later.

JohnPPP

Thanks for all the replies.

It's stupid of BE. I genuinely wonder what would happen if people done this constantly. Surely it can be done.

Terrontress

Victor wrote: »

Strictly speaking, if a bus doesn't have the equipment, they can insist you pay cash.


Stamps are not legal tender. I have strong doubts they ever were.

As I understand it, before inflation devalued anything under a fiver, and before payment cards were so widely accepted and issued, people used to accept stamps for sub £5 payments by post because they are redeemable for their full value when they have a monetary amount on them

I think that postal orders, which were maybe only in £1, £5, £10 etc, could be topped up with stamps to bring them to an exact amount. Maybe a postal order is legal tender.

Legal tender should only be relevant where a debt exists, so its use is very limited. A bus accepts payment before the journey has been made so no debt can exist at the point of payment.

Rachiee

When there isn't a working machine and the bus driver waves you on; rather than apologise and demand cash fare (something which I think would be outrageous) then sure the driver as an agent of BE is literally waiving the fee so a later inspector can't be all like why didn't you pay...well the bus driver told me I didn't have to !

JohnPPP

Rachiee wrote: »

When there isn't a working machine and the bus driver waves you on; rather than apologise and demand cash fare (something which I think would be outrageous) then sure the driver as an agent of BE is literally waiving the fee so a later inspector can't be all like why didn't you pay...well the bus driver told me I didn't have to !

Agree. But now imagine the same thing happens a few times each week. Is it still the drivers fault?

markpb

JohnPPP wrote: »

Agree. But now imagine the same thing happens a few times each week. Is it still the drivers fault?

It's never the drivers fault - it would always be Bus Eireanns fault. They've advertised they'll take Leap on those routes and they can't. The customer can't be expected to take several forms of payment with them depending on the bus that turns up so they, quite sensibly, don't require payment.

JohnPPP

markpb wrote: »

It's never the drivers fault - it would always be Bus Eireanns fault. They've advertised they'll take Leap on those routes and they can't. The customer can't be expected to take several forms of payment with them depending on the bus that turns up so they, quite sensibly, don't require payment.

That's what I meant, sorry

braniganl

Has happened to me on DB a few times over last few weeks. Most recently on a 46A from UCD to town. Right hand validator was working but driver's validator wasn't. I was only paying €2.05 so got waved on for free. Nice way to start the day, payback for all the times I overpaid with cash before Leap was introduced as well!