How many of Ireland's players are World Class?

WarZ

I keep hearing about Ireland's world class players but I'm not convinced. For arguments sake we will define world class as the top 5 in their positions. By my reckoning only Sexton is a definite. Are Sean O'Brien, Cian Healy, Peter O'Mahony, Connor Murray, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney and Henshaw really world class by such a definition?

There are very few countries playing high level rugby so to be in the top 5 players in the world in your position shouldn't be too difficult if you are truly world class

Montroseee

WarZ wrote: »

I keep hearing about Ireland's world class players but I'm not convinced. For arguments sake we will define world class as the top 5 in their positions. By my reckoning only Sexton is a definite. Are Sean O'Brien, Cian Healy, Peter O'Mahony, Connor Murray, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney and Henshaw really world class by such a definition?

There are very few countries playing high level rugby so to be in the top 5 players in the world in your position shouldn't be too difficult if you are truly world class

We have four world class players IMO - O'Brien, POC, Sexton and Healy (before injury). Murray and Heaslip are very close to that status.

bilston

Montroseee wrote: »

We have four world class players IMO - O'Brien, POC, Sexton and Healy (before injury). Murray and Heaslip are very close to that status.

Montroseee are you sitting down mate? I've got some bad news about POC to break to you...

WarZ

Montroseee wrote: »

We have four world class players IMO - O'Brien, POC, Sexton and Healy (before injury). Murray and Heaslip are very close to that status.

As mentioned POC is gone and Healy is post injury so he's no longer world class and to be honest at the moment he's struggling to be international class.

Is O'Brien really in top five 7s in the world?

former total

Ugh. Do we really need another thread in which everyone just bails in and tells us how we're deluding ourselves about how good we are?

Maybe we could park the relentless negativity and self-loathing for a bit.

Just a suggestion, knock yourselves out if you like.

sydthebeat

as "world class" is a totally subjective term this thread can lead to no good

WarZ

sydthebeat wrote: »

as "world class" is a totally subjective term this thread can lead to no good

I've explained, top 5 in the world in their position

sydthebeat

WarZ wrote: »

I've explained, top 5 in the world in their position

and as ive said...... totally subjective

pickarooney

Sexton most likely and SOB at a stretch assuming McCaw has retired.

Nobody else is in the reckoning right now.
I'd have any of NZ's three scrummies ahead of Murray.

Pudsy33

WarZ wrote: »

I've explained, top 5 in the world in their position

If that's the criteria, then I reckon SOB is unquestionably world class. Only McCaw and Pocock (or is he an 8 now?) are superior. Sexton for sure, but I'd say SOB is better on his position. Healy was there but his form has dropped off a cliff since the injury. Beat at a push? That's it really.

WarZ

sydthebeat wrote: »

and as ive said...... totally subjective

No point discussing anything on the rugby forum ever then

Pudsy33

pickarooney wrote: »

Sexton most likely and SOB at a stretch assuming McCaw has retired.

Nobody else is in the reckoning right now.
I'd have any of NZ's three scrummies ahead of Murray.

I forgot Murray. Don't buy that about the NZ scrum halves, only Smith is better by my reckoning. Wouldn't have Genia ahead of him either. Although calling him world class now might be a stretch.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

World class should mean you would make a dream world 30 man squad. 2 players for each position.
we have a lot of good players, but sexton is the only one even remotely close to world class.

Larbre34

Healy, Best, Henderson, O'Brien, Murray, Sexton and Rob Kearney are world class. They may not make an New Zealand team but they would be in with a shout on any other test side.

Other players have had purple patches in their careers which could be considered world class, but injury or other loss of form / confidence has intervened, to wit, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Peter O'Mahony, Andrew Trimble.

Some others are making great headway but unproven; Henshaw, Zebo, Ruddock and some others.

WarZ

Larbre34 wrote: »

Healy, Best, Henderson, O'Brien, Murray, Sexton and Rob Kearney are world class. They may not make an New Zealand team but they would be in with a shout on any other test side.

Other players have had purple patches in their careers which could be considered world class, but injury or other loss of form / confidence has intervened, to wit, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Peter O'Mahony, Andrew Trimble.

Some others are making great headway but unproven; Henshaw, Zebo, Ruddock and some others.

Oh come on. Ruddock is 25 I think his world class ship has sailed. Ditto for Zebo. He's 25 and a back 3 player if he was going to be world class he would be starting for Ireland by now!

None of Fitzgerald, Bowe, Trimble (seriously?) and O'Mahony are world class, in fact all of them bar O'Mahony struggle to start for an international team that would be very average by top tier terms.

Best, Henderson, Murray, Kearney are definitely not world class although Henderson as a lock has time on his side and seems to be going that way

RichieRich89

Jack McGrath, Conor Murray

él statutorio

If you're talking top players then you have to ask yourself what Irish players would get into the AB 1st XV.

None of them.

Would any Irish players get into an AB squad? Maybe Murray & Sexton (and a pre-injury POC), maybe. But that's about it.

Some Yoke

WarZ wrote: »

Oh come on. Ruddock is 25 I think his world class ship has sailed. Ditto for Zebo. He's 25 and a back 3 player if he was going to be world class he would be starting for Ireland by now!

None of Fitzgerald, Bowe, Trimble (seriously?) and O'Mahony are world class, in fact all of them bar O'Mahony struggle to start for an international team that would be very average by top tier terms.

Best, Henderson, Murray, Kearney are definitely not world class although Henderson as a lock has time on his side and seems to be going that way

Would ruddocks world class ship be in the top 5 ships in the world though??

English Lurker

él statutorio wrote: »

If you're talking top players then you have to ask yourself what Irish players would get into the AB 1st XV.

None of them.

Would any Irish players get into an AB squad? Maybe Murray & Sexton (and a pre-injury POC), maybe. But that's about it.

I could make a case for Sexton and SOB now we're post-Carter and McCaw; also Healy given the poor standard of the AB front row.

I could also see Best, McGrath and Henderson on the ABs bench easily enough. Which isn't calling them World Class so much a comment on the ABs bench, for all the ABs bench is the best in rugby.

Solely haven't mentioned Murray as he seems so much more the sort of scrum-half the Boks would have produced than the Kiwis.

Neil3030

Toner and Heaslip for sure. They're the best on earth at what they do.

pickarooney

What specifically is that in each case?

Sangre

pickarooney wrote: »

What specifically is that in each case?

Be tall and post lovely instragram photos. Respectively.

Larbre34

Sangre wrote: »

Be tall and post lovely instragram photos. Respectively.

Luke Charteris FTW on both counts.

padser

SOB (tragically) isn't close to the player he was 4 years ago (ditto Healy).

If we are going to maintain he is still world class I'd like to know.....what category would you have put him in 4 years ago?

Also arguably 4 years ago O'Brien was a better 6 than he was 7, and he was the second best 6 in our squad.

I think we overrate our players on a world stage and the vast majority of us have far too little visibility into the players on other teams (particularly down south) to do any meaningful comparison

bilston

World class is such a subjective term.

What I'd be interested to know is how many world class players the OP thinks England, Wales and Scotland have. Just as a comparison.

I was thinking about this and this is what I've come up with

Scotland - 0
England - 2 (Corbisero, Tuilagi)
Wales - 5 (AWJ, Warburton, Davies, North, Halfpenny)
Ireland - 3 (Healy, O'Brien, Sexton)

The two English players are potentially generous shouts but I do think when fit/not on the naughty step they can mix it with the best.

Anyway there aren't many world class players about at the minute. If you throw France and Italy into the mix you'd probably only add Picamoles and Parisse.

A few young guys have the potential to be amongst the best in the world. Russell and Bennett in Scotland, Henshaw and Henderson in Ireland and Watson and Ford in England. They aren't there yet though.

The next step would be to decide how many world class players NZ, Australia, SA and Argentina have.

English Lurker

padser wrote: »

SOB (tragically) isn't close to the player he was 4 years ago (ditto Healy).

If we are going to maintain he is still world class I'd like to know.....what category would you have put him in 4 years ago?

Also arguably 4 years ago O'Brien was a better 6 than he was 7, and he was the second best 6 in our squad.

I think we overrate our players on a world stage and the vast majority of us have far too little visibility into the players on other teams (particularly down south) to do any meaningful comparison

I would say he is a better player now than he was 4 years ago; just different and in a different system. He is not the ball carrier he once was (nor does he have ballcarrying colleagues of the same stature as Ferris) but his presence at the breakdown, handling, and decision making (mostly...) have improved a huge amount for my money and he's a much more influential player for it. I would have made polite but negative noises if someone had suggested he was World Class four years ago; it's probably correct today.

The very best players are those who continue learning and adding to their game, adapting and evolving. Fitness pending, I think we'll look back in six years or so and use O'Brien as an example of that.

ulster_Beef

These sort of questions are daft.

Healy is apparently world class but no mention of Henderson? Is Henderson world class, maybe not yet.... but how can Irelands player of the tournament (2 MOTMs? and it should have been a 3rd only lobster hands Earls got a MOTM) not be world class, whenever Healy is?.... a player who has been going backwards and overtaken by McGrath in many peoples opinion.... Doesnt make much sense really.

:mad:

typhoony

sexton only for me, Jack McGrath isnt that far off actually he maybe has 1 other loosehead in front of him who are better if we are talking top 2 in world for every position, Healy shipped too many injuries recent years and seems to going backwards. too many good backrowers right now for any of ours to figure.

CMOTDibbler

ulster_Beef wrote: »

These sort of questions are daft.

Healy is apparently world class but no mention of Henderson? Is Henderson world class, maybe not yet.... but how can Irelands player of the tournament (2 MOTMs? and it should have been a 3rd only lobster hands Earls got a MOTM) not be world class, whenever Healy is?.... a player who has been going backwards and overtaken by McGrath in many peoples opinion.... Doesnt make much sense really.

:mad:

If I was to define world class, I'd say it was a measure of whether a particular player would get into any of the national squads world wide.

So squad rather than starting 15, since if you take New Zealand as the benchmark, many of their squad would walk into any national team without question.

tayto lover

We simply don't have any world class players.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

If I was to define world class, I'd say it was a measure of whether a particular player would get into any of the national squads world wide.

So squad rather than starting 15, since if you take New Zealand as the benchmark, many of their squad would walk into any national team without question.

There are also plenty of kiwi players around who have a couple of AB caps and are nothing special.

Kirk Van Houten

Anyone who names Rob Kearney as world class should hang their heads in shame... in total and utter shame. Shame I tells ya. Living in the past.

efb

Sexton O'Brien and Murray

efb

Healy was dreadful in RWC 2015

captbarnacles

Rory Best is world class. Hell, even some nz media picked him in their squad of the tournament (he was the only irish player in it)

LorMal

Larbre34 wrote: »

Healy, Best, Henderson, O'Brien, Murray, Sexton and Rob Kearney are world class. They may not make an New Zealand team but they would be in with a shout on any other test side.

Other players have had purple patches in their careers which could be considered world class, but injury or other loss of form / confidence has intervened, to wit, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Peter O'Mahony, Andrew Trimble.

Some others are making great headway but unproven; Henshaw, Zebo, Ruddock and some others.

Wow, with that many world class players, we will have an amazing World Cup 2015. Oh, wait...

RichieRich89

The question of what the criteria for being a "world class" rugby player are is an interesting one. The term 'world class' gets bandied about way too often, especially by coaches when they're talking about what such and such a player brings to their team

You could say it's the top three players in their positions in the world, or the top 5 players in their positions - Clive Woodward's concept of 'medal players', i.e. players who are among the three best in the world in their position, is an interesting one - but there could be quite a disparity between the best and the third best. Equally there could be a situation where you have numerous players of similar calibre in a position, like there is internationally at full-back at the moment.

For me a reasonable definition of a 'world class' player would be someone who, on their best form, would or could arguably make a World XV or maybe even XXIII (since there could be impact specialists). I'd say there should also be some sort of longevity and consistency clause. Players have to show quality over a number of seasons, and should also be reasonably consistent

CMOTDibbler

RichieRich89 wrote: »

For me a reasonable definition of a 'world class' player would be someone who, on their best form, would or could arguably make a World XV or maybe even XXIII (since there could be impact specialists). I'd say there should also be some sort of longevity and consistency clause. Players have to show quality over a number of seasons, and should also be reasonably consistent

That would go along with how I defined it. If a player could walk into any squad in the world, by definition they would make a world squad.

A kind of worldwide Lions squad really.

Yeah_Right

I'm going to be an arrogant kiwi and judge it by who from the Irish team would make the ABs RWC squad.

Healy and McGrath would be there ahead of Crockett. B Franks can cover both sides so they wouldn't get ahead of him.

Best would be there. Definitely. Even Straus and Cronin would have a good chance as the 3rd hooker for NZ is a weak point.

No THs would be ahead of the kiwi ones.

Henderson would be ahead of Romano. POC possibly but I don't think he would suit the ABs style.

SOB and Heaslip would make it ahead of Kane and Messam/Vito.

No HB would make it as they don't suit the AB style.

Sexton ahead of Slade and possibly Barrett.

Henshaw might get ahead of Fekitoa.

That's it as far as I can see.

CMOTDibbler

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'm going to be an arrogant kiwi and judge it by who from the Irish team would make the ABs RWC squad.

Healy and McGrath would be there ahead of Crockett. B Franks can cover both sides so they wouldn't get ahead of him.

Best would be there. Definitely. Even Straus and Cronin would have a good chance as the 3rd hooker for NZ is a weak point.

No THs would be ahead of the kiwi ones.

Henderson would be ahead of Romano. POC possibly but I don't think he would suit the ABs style.

SOB and Heaslip would make it ahead of Kane and Messam/Vito.

No HB would make it as they don't suit the AB style.

Sexton ahead of Slade and possibly Barrett.

Henshaw might get ahead of Fekitoa.

That's it as far as I can see.

I wouldn't disagree with either the methodology or the choices. However would those same players get into all of the rest of the world squads?

Both looseheads mightn't nor perhaps the hookers. The point being that NZ's weaknesses might be other nation's strengths.

El_Duderino 09

Kirk Van Houten wrote:

Anyone who names Rob Kearney as world class should hang their heads in shame... in total and utter shame. Shame I tells ya. Living in the past.

I think it makes sense to judge the world class players on recent form. Take the last 5 games or the world cup as a sample of games and pick your top 5 players for each position.

O Driscoll was great and would have been in the top 5, on and off, for a lot of his career, probably not in his last year though. He was good but probably not top 5.

Rob Kearney was definitely world class for at some periods. So was Sean o Brien, Healy, Murray. They did alright in the world cup but the form players are probably Henderson, Henshaw, McGrath.

Henderson and Best definately and McGrath, Sexton, Murray, are there or there abouts, Henshaw maybe.