"Mock Sash" windows

FiOT

In the middle of choosing windows for our new build which we hope to start in the new year - hope being the operative word.

Just wondering if anyone here has heard/seen/experience of mock sash windows where it appears to be a sliding sash but the windows open as regular casements would?

We have been told by a few window companies that due to the sizing of our windows (1m width x 1.5m length downstairs and 1m x 1.2 upstairs) we are limited to the window style we can go for to meet fire regulations?? We've been offered a French style or this mock sash. We feel the French style may limit light a little more - although we do like them. We can't afford real sash windows as we'd like to eat more than beans for the rest of our lives

Any comments or ideas greatly appreciated! Also, if anyone has had a good experience with particular window companies, I'd love if you could send me a little message, thanks!

colm_mcm

They look grand when they're closed.

I think they're a bit twee tbh.

Metric Tensor

At that size window why not go with a plane sheet of glass - no transoms or mullions at all.

This would let in the most light by far. It's also quite a modern look.

I find they work well with tilt and turn windows* although they can be used with standard outward opening windows too.


*N.B. inward opening tilt and turns can have water ingress problems if poorly installed

stickybookmark

I am facing the same conundrum for the front of my house. Either sliding sash or top opening casement.
For the top opening casement which I'm leaning towards we are going to get the vertical bar in the top and bottom so it has a cross effect.

Apart from that I think the only detail that makes them a ''mock sash'' is to put the little horns on the top opening part to mimic the sash, I wouldn't bother with that I don't think it's necessary. As Colm_mcm said when they're open I think it could look a little bit funny.

If we go casement on the front we'l be going for this style - just a top opening casement. No need to add the horns IMO

Like the 2nd picture here
-snip-

ml100

stickybookmark wrote: »

I am facing the same conundrum for the front of my house. Either sliding sash or top opening casement.
For the top opening casement which I'm leaning towards we are going to get the vertical bar in the top and bottom so it has a cross effect.

Apart from that I think the only detail that makes them a ''mock sash'' is to put the little horns on the top opening part to mimic the sash, I wouldn't bother with that I don't think it's necessary. As Colm_mcm said when they're open I think it could look a little bit funny.

If we go casement on the front we'l be going for this style - just a top opening casement. No need to add the horns IMO

Like the 2nd picture here -

We are in the same boat, sash look the best but are expensive and have relatively low energy rating, problem with top opening casement is they won't meet the fire regs for upstairs bedrooms, the opening is too high, it must be less than 1100 mm from finished floor level.

I agree with you on the "little horns", don't think they look great.

BryanF

Imo fake pvc sash windows, and even timber sash windows on anything other than +100 year old house look: fake/ tacky/ kitch/ oldie worldie/ nasty/ mock American and have no place in a new build. Imo

BarneyMc

One option is to go with 'French' style windows.

ml100

BarneyMc wrote: »

One option is to go with 'French' style windows.

Barneymc what size is that window, ours are 1.7 x 1 m not sure if 1m is wide enough for French style

The Sidewards Man

BryanF wrote: »

Imo fake pvc sash windows, and even timber sash windows on anything other than +100 year old house look: fake/ tacky/ kitch/ oldie worldie/ nasty/ mock American and have no place in a new build. Imo

Many wouldn't share your opinion.

nhg

For Sliding Sash Windows the height should be at least double the width especially if going with Georgian style glazing -
Georgian panes should be 'tall & slender', they do not look correct being wider than the height.
All glass panes are equal size in sliding sash Windows.
Sliding sash Windows can be 'A Rated' if purchased in the correct place
No window can ever replicate a sliding sash window in terms of ventilation- for optimum ventilation you open a small bit on the top sash an same on bottom sash to create optimum air flow.
You have to think about your sliding sash (ie top sash) if approx 1M wide if not at least 1M high - it firstly will not operate as smoothly as it should, but it will still work, secondly your glass sizes will not be the correct proportions so will look better as one over one as in one pane of glass in top sash and one in bottom sash.
For fire escape in sash Windows you need at least 0.3 sq my clear ope - you will not have full half of the window opening due to the ornate jiggles.

Imitation sliding sash Windows - you need to have a sash top and bottom to give you the equal glass sizes (this is more important aesthetically than having the ornate joggle added on) both sashes don't have to open if budget is an issue - one can be a 'dummy sash' screw/fixed in place.

NO CASEMENT WINDOW WILL EVER LOOK LIKE A SLIDING SASH WINDOW!

nhg

These pictures are Hardwood Windows but can look equally as good in uPVC depending on budget or more importantly- how good one will be to maintain them!
Timber are dearer but will look better but take a lot of maintenance over the years!

That's coming from someone who loves wood.

PS I am no longer in the joinery business unfortunately but after being away from it for a year now will never go back!

FiOT

Wow, lots of replied to login in to! Thanks everyone.

I agree with the ornate "horns" or "joggles" looking silly, one company we spoke to refuses to put them on as he said they just fall off! I know that the mock sash won't look the same as sash, we don't want it too as we don't really like sash - if I'm not totally contradicting myself there! We just want something simple and bright that won't make our traditional house look fussy.

As far as going with a single opening window, we were warned that anything over a 700mm opening could mean trouble with hinges over time - ours is 1m.

The regulations have really hedged us in!

sydthebeat

i get this sometimes in the course of my work..... can i change the type / style of my windows because the window company cannot do what i want.
My response is generally "well go find a window company that CAN do what you want"

im going to assume the problem with the sash windows and the fire regs are that when you open the bottom section the window company cannot guarantee a minimum 450mm opening height, due to the friction holding method.
The next step would be to find out what window dimensions CAN achieve that.

to be honest, you refer to the house style as being "traditional" yet first floor window proportions of 1 x 1.2 is definitely not traditional.
Can you consider 900 x 1350 ? that would suit a taditional sash window, or a 4 or 6 pane georgian casement window

BarneyMc

ml100 wrote: »

Barneymc what size is that window, ours are 1.7 x 1 m not sure if 1m is wide enough for French style

Will check when back on site but I'd say they're not far off 1m wide.

Metric Tensor

It's also worth pointing out that some local authorities have strict conditions regarding windows on their planning decisions. I know of at least one authority who have a VERY strong stance on not allowing Georgian style small panes in new houses.

ml100

sydthebeat wrote: »

i get this sometimes in the course of my work..... can i change the type / style of my windows because the window company cannot do what i want.
My response is generally "well go find a window company that CAN do what you want"

im going to assume the problem with the sash window's and the fire regs are that when you open the bottom section the window company cannot guarantee a minimum 450mm opening height, due to the friction holding method.
The next step would be to find out what window dimensions CAN achieve that.

to be honest, you refer to the house style as being "traditional" yet first floor window proportions of 1 x 1.2 is definitely not traditional.
Can you consider 900 x 1350 ? that would suit a taditional sash window, or a 4 or 6 pane georgian casement window

Hi, it was me that mentioned the fire regs but that was in relation to casement windows where the top half opens, we will probably go sash as they will meet the regs, there are other options like have the bottom half of the casement opening (I don't think it looks great) or tilt and turn type windows (ours are probably too big for these, upstairs are 1x1.4m), I'd love to go as plain as possible.

FiOT

@sydthebeat well, traditional "style" then. I didn't realise there were exact measurements, that is possibly something our engineer could have told us.

Will have to do a little more problem- solving.

sydthebeat

FiOT wrote: »

@sydthebeat well, traditional "style" then. I didn't realise there were exact measurements, that is possibly something our engineer could have told us.

Will have to do a little more problem- solving.

theres no exact measurements... but there is an appreciation of proportion in order to achieve a "style".

a 900 x 1350 window is basically 2 x 1 vertical... which is good for a sash type or casement side hung

a 1000 x 1200 window is pretty close to a square, and really only suits being split down the middle to a french style like barney linked to above

is there any reason you cannot go to a 900 x 1350 deep window at this stage? it actually works out better with block sizes... 1.0 x 1.2 bears no reflection on block dimensions

FiOT

sydthebeat wrote: »

theres no exact measurements... but there is an appreciation of proportion in order to achieve a "style".

a 900 x 1350 window is basically 2 x 1 vertical... which is good for a sash type or casement side hung

a 1000 x 1200 window is pretty close to a square, and really only suits being split down the middle to a french style like barney linked to above

is there any reason you cannot go to a 900 x 1350 deep window at this stage? it actually works out better with block sizes... 1.0 x 1.2 bears no reflection on block dimensions

Yeah it's something we could explore, there's nothing written in stone yet as we haven't started the build. Our downstairs windows are 1x1.5 - are those measurements ok or would you suggest a change there too? Great to get this advice - thanks!

sydthebeat

FiOT wrote: »

Yeah it's something we could explore, there's nothing written in stone yet as we haven't started the build. Our downstairs windows are 1x1.5 - are those measurements ok or would you suggest a change there too? Great to get this advice - thanks!

well again, 900 x 1575 is block dimensions..... saves you have to buy costly concrete bricks to build up openings.

if youve decent floor to ceiling heights downstairs (2.7) and 2.5 up stairs... i usually leave my head height on the ground floor at 2.25m and 2.1 m on the first floor.

FiOT

sydthebeat wrote: »

well again, 900 x 1575 is block dimensions..... saves you have to buy costly concrete bricks to build up openings.

if youve decent floor to ceiling heights downstairs (2.7) and 2.5 up stairs... i usually leave my head height on the ground floor at 2.25m and 2.1 m on the first floor.

We have 9ft downstairs and 8ft upstairs so that works! Will definitely say this on, doesn't make the biggest difference at all to change it at this stage and if it's saving on cost well then everyone's happy! What we're losing in width we're essentially gaining in height with these measurements so doesn't make a difference in terms of light either.

Thank you so much for the advice!

stickybookmark

sydthebeat wrote: »

well again, 900 x 1575 is block dimensions..... saves you have to buy costly concrete bricks to build up openings.

if youve decent floor to ceiling heights downstairs (2.7) and 2.5 up stairs... i usually leave my head height on the ground floor at 2.25m and 2.1 m on the first floor.

Can OP change the window locations and dimensions on the front of his house from what's in the planning permission at this stage? (he talks about building in new year so I assume planning has been got)

I was under the impression i had to keep the location and dimensions and general style of the windows on the front of my house especially, as per what was submitted and approved in the planning stage

stickybookmark

ml100 wrote: »

We are in the same boat, sash look the best but are expensive and have relatively low energy rating, problem with top opening casement is they won't meet the fire regs for upstairs bedrooms, the opening is too high, it must be less than 1100 mm from finished floor level.

I agree with you on the "little horns", don't think they look great.

Right have a photo (which hopefully won't be snipped) showing a suggestion for you - possibly already been mentioned as the ''French style'' if you look at the top window on this house this could meet your fire regs and suit the look of your house at the same time and be a cheaper alternative to sash. Also matches well with the top opening casement on the GF

stickybookmark

FiOT wrote: »

Wow, lots of replied to login in to! Thanks everyone.

I agree with the ornate "horns" or "joggles" looking silly, one company we spoke to refuses to put them on as he said they just fall off! I know that the mock sash won't look the same as sash, we don't want it too as we don't really like sash - if I'm not totally contradicting myself there! We just want something simple and bright that won't make our traditional house look fussy.

As far as going with a single opening window, we were warned that anything over a 700mm opening could mean trouble with hinges over time - ours is 1m.

The regulations have really hedged us in!

Have a look at this house with top opening casement with the vertical bar to give the overall cross affect. I'm not trying to start a discussion on whether this is ''better'' than sash or not but you've stated that you are not keen on sash so with that in mind, I think this is an option - alternative to sash - that would suit a traditional house. I think these windows look really well

sydthebeat

stickybookmark wrote: »

Have a look at this house with top opening casement with the vertical bar to give the overall cross affect. I'm not trying to start a discussion on whether this is ''better'' than sash or not but you've stated that you are not keen on sash so with that in mind, I think this is an option - alternative to sash - that would suit a traditional house. I think these windows look really well

those windows would certainly be more in line with what i would advise.

top hung on GF and side hung on FF, 4 pane georgian casement windows

ml100

sydthebeat wrote: »

those windows would certainly be more in line with what i would advise.

top hung on GF and side hung on FF, 4 pane georgian casement windows

They look good and being an dark colour the differences in the frame of the upstairs and downstairs windows is less obvious

hexosan

I've 900mmx1.5m downstairs & 900mmx1.3m upstairs I've went with a single panel triple glazed unit top hung opening out. Due to the size and weight of the glass I have to have three handles on each window. Two each side and one on the bottom.
This didn't sit well with me at first but I have to say I don't even notice them now.

They were supplied by a maynooth based window supplier. Can't fault the installation.

ml100

hexosan wrote: »

I've 900mmx1.5m downstairs & 900mmx1.3m upstairs I've went with a single panel triple glazed unit top hung opening out. Due to the size and weight of the glass I have to have three handles on each window. Two each side and one on the bottom.
This didn't sit well with me at first but I have to say I don't even notice them now.

They were supplied by a maynooth based window supplier. Can't fault the installation.

Where you able to get glazing bars on the triple glazed? where they UPVC or aluclad ?, can you PM me the supplier.

thanks.

hexosan

ml100 wrote: »

Where you able to get glazing bars on the triple glazed? where they UPVC or aluclad ?, can you PM me the supplier.

thanks.

Didn't want bars it's just a single pane of glass. They let in plenty of light and there's nothing to obstruct your view.
The window is triple glazed upvc.

Google maynooth and window their probably the second largest window manufacturer in the country.

ml100

hexosan wrote: »

Didn't want bars it's just a single pane of glass. They let in plenty of light and there's nothing to obstruct your view.
The window is triple glazed upvc.

Google maynooth and window their probably the second largest window manufacturer in the country.

I know the one, I spoke to them about sash, now that I'm looking at other alternatives I'll given them a call,

thanks.

hexosan

Well I can't fault them had no issues so far. Their due out in a few weeks to do a final adjustment on the Windows.

stickybookmark

hexosan wrote: »

I've 900mmx1.5m downstairs & 900mmx1.3m upstairs I've went with a single panel triple glazed unit top hung opening out. .

Does that qualify as the ''unobstructed ope'' required for fire escape? I would have thought the opening is still obstructed by the window (even if open) if it's a solid pane of glass top hung opening out?

hexosan

I'll have to refer back to what I have but as far as I know both the eng & window crowd signed off on them. Since your standard door is roughly 900x1.8 give or take I think a 900x1.5 should cover a fire escape

stickybookmark

hexosan wrote: »

I'll have to refer back to what I have but as far as I know both the eng & window crowd signed off on them. Since your standard door is roughly 900x1.8 give or take I think a 900x1.5 should cover a fire escape

I'm not referring to the size of the ope, I'm referring to the fact it's not unobstructed because of the style of the window. A window sales man told me that no matter how big my top opening casement windows were, they'd never qualify as a fire escape because the opening of a top opening casement isn't viewed as unobstructed

sydthebeat

theres a min / max height of 800 - 1100 that the bottom of the opening section must be at

most top hung first floor windows wouldnt comply with that