Club Races

yop

Hey,
We are looking at our Club races and trying to refresh it.

Thinking maybe a few TT's and/or hill climb to get members in and then have 3 or 4 40/50km races.

But we would like to hear how other clubs do this.

Thanks

Beasty

Given you can only run club league races midweek, it's usual for the longer ones to be run in June and July

Historically my club started with a TT or hillclimb. That allows for grouping of riders of similar ability. Then a few shorter (30+km) races, a 10m Club Championship TT, by which time the evenings are getting longer facilitating 40-50km or so RRs as well. The Club Championship 25m TT needs to be run in June/July also. During August the races get shorter ending in a Hill Climb.

Because of problems running races in Fingal we throw a few trips to Corkagh Park in, and if there is an appropriate circuit nearby a Crit may be an option also.

yop

Beasty wrote: »

Given you can only run club league races midweek, it's usual for the longer ones to be run in June and July

Historically my club started with a TT or hillclimb. That allows for grouping of riders of similar ability. Then a few shorter (30+km) races, a 10m Club Championship TT, by which time the evenings are getting longer facilitating 40-50km or so RRs as well. The Club Championship 25m TT needs to be run in June/July also. During August the races get shorter ending in a Hill Climb.

Because of problems running races in Fingal we throw a few trips to Corkagh Park in, and if there is an appropriate circuit nearby a Crit may be an option also.

Excellent, some great ideas.

We have a load of "Leisure" cyclists, people who do Sportives but also do Duathlons etc, what we found was that the did the 1st or 2nd race, got blown out of the water and never returned.

We want to get them in and hooked, the TT Could be a great approach.

I like the idea of the crit too. What distance was the crit?

Beasty

yop wrote: »

I like the idea of the crit too. What distance was the crit?

At Corkagh park we do between 20 and 35 mins or so plus 3 laps

Plastik

How many groups do you have on the road? Our club races are handicapped with up to 9 separate groups on the road. This keeps the numbers in each group relatively small plus it gives the leisure riders a better chance of staying away. The handicaps mean they don't but at least it lets them believe they have a fighting chance and they keep coming back.

buffalo

yop wrote: »

Hey,
We are looking at our Club races and trying to refresh it.

Thinking maybe a few TT's and/or hill climb to get members in and then have 3 or 4 40/50km races.

But we would like to hear how other clubs do this.

Thanks

The Orwell league will be heading into its 4th year in 2016, after The Split from the ICL. Our format is generally begins with...

R1: prologue TT
R2-4: Corkagh Park - shorter, safer races to get the newbies used to bunches
R5: 10TT

After that, a mix of road races with flat and draggy finishes, and an occasional Sallygap finish. A crit in Corkagh Park and/or Mondello.

In there will also be the 10TT, 25TT, Hill Climb and Road Race club championships. And one TTT.

There are medals up for grabs in the champs, trophies for the league winner and top 3 of each gender, and also a BAR competition based on the TT rounds.

We have four ability based groups, some nights we'd have two races, some nights only one. Don't think we did a 4 race night this year. For TTs you're only competing against your peers from your group.

PM if you want to discuss it further or more details. Or you can have a look at http://www.orwellwheelers.org/orwell-league and the other pages under 'League' in the top menu of the page.

Raam

BAR = Best All Rounder?

Esroh

Plastik wrote: »

How many groups do you have on the road? Our club races are handicapped with up to 9 separate groups on the road. This keeps the numbers in each group relatively small plus it gives the leisure riders a better chance of staying away. The handicaps mean they don't but at least it lets them believe they have a fighting chance and they keep coming back.

+10 :-) On this.
As someone who drifts between 'Leisure' and Club Licence holder and has seen people go up from being pushed on the 'No one gets left behind group ' to A1 the No.1 rule of Club Leagues should be ' everyone must think they can win.'
The Skill of riding in a group when the word race is involved is not the same as rolling through in a Sportive and group who are used to riding the bike leg of Tri or Duathlon chasing a 'I finished ' time. Extend the gaps. What looks a strong group on paper is not always that on the road.
If a 'Leisure ' rider stays away that first day so be it. They get moved up a group but it also encourages the others they ride with to keep it up

lennymc

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but riders with a non competition "leisure licence" are not insured to take part in any races including club or corkagh park races. The minimum licence requirement for any form of race is limited competition. For TT's it is possible to issue a 1 day licence but that costs 10 quid.

buffalo

Raam wrote: »

BAR = Best All Rounder?

Yes, based on average speed across each event - prologue, best 10TT (of two), 25TT and hill climb.

Beasty

Plastik wrote: »

How many groups do you have on the road? Our club races are handicapped with up to 9 separate groups on the road. This keeps the numbers in each group relatively small plus it gives the leisure riders a better chance of staying away. The handicaps mean they don't but at least it lets them believe they have a fighting chance and they keep coming back.

Up to 5 groups, but usually only perhaps half a dozen to maybe 10 in a group

The point made by lenny is correct - if "leisure" riders want to race (even at Corkagh Park) they must hold at least a limited competition licence

yop

We usually have 3 or 4 groups with each getting a handicap. Though NEARLY all times the last group (racers A2/A3/A4) will catch the other groups.

We really want to get those who have a leisure license to come up to "race" for 1 or 2 and then get them to move up a license.

Beasty

No one should be putting on "CI" races without ensuring everyone racing has a racing licence (be it full or limited competition)

It's up to race organisers to check for licences at club league level. If they fail to do so and in particular if something untoward then happens, not only is an unlicensed racer likely to be uninsured, but the organisers/organising club may find themselves uninsured and/or subject to disciplinary action

yop

Is a club race classified as a CI race? When its club members only? I know they have to have CI membership though.

Plastik

You can't race in a club league without a Club/Limited Competition licence. Minimum standard.

yop

Plastik wrote: »

You can't race in a club league without a Club/Limited Competition licence. Minimum standard.

They would all have club license minimum.

Plastik

yop wrote: »

They would all have club license minimum.

As long as it's the €60 Limited Competition licence and not the €35/40 Non-competition "leisure" licence they're all fine to race.

lennymc

Limited comp licence holders are also OK to race in open races organised by their club.

Beasty

yop wrote: »

Is a club race classified as a CI race? When its club members only? I know they have to have CI membership though.

Yes - the safety/management plan must be filed via the CI portal. That will set out a whole host of safety issues, nominating a Safety Officer, stating the circuits etc. It will then need approving by someone at CI or the Provincial Exec. These are basic requirements to ensure CI insurance applies

yop

Thanks for the details. Must make sure all that is in place!!!

ednwireland

we run a9 week league this alternated between hill climb tt and road race may june july

CramCycle

Points each week for attendance to keep up attendance, some people tend to flake out after the early open season is over, so we have a small number of points for attendance to keep numbers high.

We also tend to give more points for races that are not as popular to ensure higher attendance.

Beasty

Speaking of points, one thing to consider is whether you offer "premium" points for volunteers taking their turn to marshal, do sign-on etc. (eg 2 points for racing, higher points for placing, and 3 for "officiating")

Either way you need to ensure you get enough marshals which we find easiest by asking member when they want to carry out such duties, then allocating anyone who has not "volunteered" to specific dates (and everyone who races has to do a set minimum number of marshalling slots)

CramCycle

We insist all riders do a minimum of 2 spots, they can collect their attendance points for that race but failure to attend results in a 12 month ban (ie until that date next year). If we don't have enough marshalls we can't run the race and we have close to the line on this once or twice resulting in a few bans that are strictly adhered too.

Make sure riders know the full extent of flaking on marshalling duties or else you will have many bailing near the end of the season.

Riders are drawn out of a hat to marshall. They can swap among themselves, but they have to sign on beside the technical marshalls name with a printed version of their own beside it.

07Lapierre

Beasty wrote: »

Yes - the safety/management plan must be filed via the CI portal. That will set out a whole host of safety issues, nominating a Safety Officer, stating the circuits etc. It will then need approving by someone at CI or the Provincial Exec. These are basic requirements to ensure CI insurance applies

This may have been resolved by now, but the last time I posted a club race on the CI portal, it was automatically listed as an Open race on the CI calendar. I had to call them later and ask them to remove it.

cornet

Beasty wrote: »

Yes - the safety/management plan must be filed via the CI portal.

Is this a new requirement? I know at least 3 club/ inter-club leagues which were never registered on the CI portal. I thought the main function of the portal was to ensure no events clashed so the Provincial Coordinator approved events. The insurance aspect was only to get the Letter of Indemnity for sign-on locations etc - which is normally not required for club races.

Beasty

Basic procedures that have been around for a year or two now. Clubs really must make more of an effort to keep up to speed on these things. There are a number of relevant sections on the CI website (including "how to organise a CI event". Some of the things set out are simply good practice. However I would certainly not want to be an officer at a club that does not follow these procedures

CI regularly emails club officials if there are changes to procedures and the like so there are no excuses for any club not to know such requirements.

lennymc

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/events/how-to-organise-a-cycling-ireland-event

all CI events (race, leisure, closed to club, leagues etc) should have certain docs such as risk assesment, officials etc.

cornet

Beasty wrote: »

Basic procedures that have been around for a year or two now. Clubs really must make more of an effort to keep up to speed on these things. There are a number of relevant sections on the CI website (including "how to organise a CI event". Some of the things set out are simply good practice. However I would certainly not want to be an officer at a club that does not follow these procedures

CI regularly emails club officials if there are changes to procedures and the like so there are no excuses for any club not to know such requirements.

Thankfully our officers have email correspondence from CI which differs from your opinion re club leagues.

Lennymc - my query is in relation to registering and uploading risk assessments to CI for club leagues only. We of course hold all the risk information, sign-on and have first aid etc. All open events (leisure and competition) fully go through the CI portal. It's no big deal to register it and there is a new section on the portal for 2016 specifically for club leagues.

Beasty

cornet wrote: »

Thankfully our officers have email correspondence from CI which differs from your opinion re club leagues.

From the link provided by lenny

The first thing to note would be that all events MUST be run with a Cycling Ireland club. Events must be registered by a club official through their club portal. Cycling Ireland cannot endorse or obtain insurance for events which are not run with Cycling Ireland clubs

That seems quite clear to me.

if in doubt

Seems to be a bit of a grey area for some clubs. I know some club officials who were told in the past that club only league events (closed to other clubs) don't need to be applied for in the same way as regular leisure or competitive events.

But, they do need to be cleared by the provincial coordinator and a risk assessment does still need to be submitted to CI.

As the calendar is split now based on different disciplines then it should be a bit easier for club and league events to be listed anyways.

Beasty

if in doubt wrote: »

Seems to be a bit of a grey area for some clubs. I know some club officials who were told in the past that club only league events (closed to other clubs) don't need to be applied for in the same way as regular leisure or competitive events.

I'm not saying the portal has to be used, but as you say risk assessments have to be filed and the CI portal is the most straightforward way of notifying them of your event. I think the CI staff actively encourage use of the portal for the simple reason they probably do not have the resource to sift through all of this manually

From an insurance perspective I'm sure the underwriters expect CI to maintain records of all events to avoid any debate over whether something was properly authorised in the unfortunate event of a claim

As I've already alluded to it's the responsibility of clubs to keep up to date with CI procedures. Equally CI need to be comfortable its members (which are the clubs as well as individuals) are following it's procedures. The insurers need to be comfortable that CI has appropriate procedures in place. I would certainly not want to be a "test case" should an insurer take the view that proper procedures have not been followed.

In the past I do think the application of the various procedures laid down by CI has not been taken seriously enough by some clubs/members and CI have not been seen to enforce compliance. Over time, this will definitely have to change and the organisation will be required to ensure it has appropriate procedures in place and properly oversees compliance with such procedures, as failure to do so will in all likelihood result in relevant Government Agencies, such as the Sports Council, withdrawing support/funding (which has recently been mentioned as an option with Boxing)

wav1

As was made clear at AGM last weekend,following a motion to clear up same,anything that is not approved [inc leagues]by provincial co ordinater is not an approved event.

cornet

wav1 wrote: »

As was made clear at AGM last weekend,following a motion to clear up same,anything that is not approved [inc leagues]by provincial co ordinater is not an approved event.

Didn't know that Kerry GAA were running club (cycling) leagues ...

Beasty

wav1 wrote: »

As was made clear at AGM last weekend,following a motion to clear up same,anything that is not approved [inc leagues]by provincial co ordinater is not an approved event.

Haha! - I'd forgotten I prompted that response!!

Beasty

cornet wrote: »

Didn't know that Kerry GAA were running club (cycling) leagues ...

If doing it under the auspices of CI they need to follow the relevant procedures. If they have their own insurance (as for example the IVCA does) they can do what they like (within any limitations imposed by their own insurance)

wav1

cornet wrote: »

Didn't know that Kerry GAA were running club (cycling) leagues ...

Was only trying to help.The item you speak of was mentioned in the discussion,but the bottom line remains the same.There is only one way to get an approved event and that's through approval be prov rep.

Raam

Beasty wrote: »

Speaking of points, one thing to consider is whether you offer "premium" points for volunteers taking their turn to marshal, do sign-on etc. (eg 2 points for racing, higher points for placing, and 3 for "officiating")

Either way you need to ensure you get enough marshals which we find easiest by asking member when they want to carry out such duties, then allocating anyone who has not "volunteered" to specific dates (and everyone who races has to do a set minimum number of marshalling slots)

I'd be loathe to see a league won by virtue of one person doing more sign-ons than another. I won't attempt to cover or discuss all possible arrangements where this could happen. Suffice to say, a sports league should be won by fair sporting endeavour.

Beasty

Raam wrote: »

I'd be loathe to see a league won by virtue of one person doing more sign-ons than another. I won't attempt to cover or discuss all possible arrangements where this could happen. Suffice to say, a sports league should be won by fair sporting endeavour.

With 25 points for a win in our league I doubt very much whether anyone will win it by marshalling alone....

Raam

Beasty wrote: »

With 25 points for a win in our league I doubt very much whether anyone will win it by marshalling alone....

That's not even close to the point I've made.

Beasty

Raam wrote: »

That's not even close to the point I've made.

OK, having read your post properly, why not? Ultimately there are a lot of factors that are outside an individual's control that may impact on their ability to win a league. That includes who actually turns up for specific races, whether we include TTs and Hill climbs - if we do whether we then handicap them etc. It's possible that our league has actually been won on that basis for all I know - the fact is we do award points for marshalling, and whether it's 2 or 3 the potential for such an impact is there

Raam

Beasty wrote: »

OK, having read your post properly, why not? Ultimately there are a lot of factors that are outside an individual's control that may impact on their ability to win a league. That includes who actually turns up for specific races, whether we include TTs and Hill climbs - if we do whether we then handicap them etc. It's possible that our league has actually been won on that basis for all I know - the fact is we do award points for marshalling, and whether it's 2 or 3 the potential for such an impact is there

I think the premium points idea whereby a person doing sign-on gets more points than a person marshalling is wrong from a sporting point of view. I see no problem awarding points for marshalling, the same as those who turn up but don't place.

CramCycle

Raam wrote: »

I'd be loathe to see a league won by virtue of one person doing more sign-ons than another. I won't attempt to cover or discuss all possible arrangements where this could happen. Suffice to say, a sports league should be won by fair sporting endeavour.

A club league is generally started with the idea of improving riders at open races and attracting others into taking up races. Unfortunately as the year goes on, interest often fades. You need an incentive to keep the stronger racers coming back so as to improve the newer races.

Raam

CramCycle wrote: »

A club league is generally started with the idea of improving riders at open races and attracting others into taking up races. Unfortunately as the year goes on, interest often fades. You need an incentive to keep the stronger racers coming back so as to improve the newer races.

I agree. Will premium points for doing sign-on achieve that? Or have I taken the wrong meaning?

CramCycle

Raam wrote: »

I agree. Will premium points for doing sign-on achieve that? Or have I taken the wrong meaning?

I am not sure where premium points came from. The minimal points stops riders only turning up for the races they are confident of placing in as to ensure their wins count they must turn up to as many other races.

This ensures reasonable field size

Raam

CramCycle wrote: »

I am not sure where premium points came from. The minimal points stops riders only turning up for the races they are confident of placing in as to ensure their wins count they must turn up to as many other races.

This ensures reasonable field size

I was responding to one of Beasty's posts.

What's the minimal points idea?

Beasty

Raam wrote: »

I think the premium points idea whereby a person doing sign-on gets more points than a person marshalling is wrong from a sporting point of view. I see no problem awarding points for marshalling, the same as those who turn up but don't place.

Sorry, wasn't suggesting anything different for marshalling and administering sign on - I was suggesting (as the league has done in the past) an extra point for carrying on either of these duties, compared to simply signing on to race (and possibly not even then starting the race!)

Raam

Beasty wrote: »

Sorry, wasn't suggesting anything different for marshalling and administering sign on - I was suggesting (as the league has done in the past) an extra point for carrying on either of these duties, compared to simply signing on to race (and possibly not even then starting the race!)

Understood. We are all friends again.

CramCycle

We make marshaling a requirement, therefore no more points are needed than simply signing on.

You don't Marshall you don't race.

Duties are random (out of a hat) as the volunteering allows overly tactical racers to volunteer for their weak races.

Raam

CramCycle wrote: »

We make marshaling a requirement, therefore no more points are needed than simply signing on.

You don't Marshall you don't race.

Duties are random (out of a hat) as the volunteering allows overly tactical racers to volunteer for their weak races.

First two points are fair enough to me. We do the same.

The random one... could be a good idea. I know of a few who go the tactical route. Still gonna have folk who genuinely can't make an assigned date. Up to them to get a replacement I guess.

buffalo

Raam wrote: »

The random one... could be a good idea. I know of a few who go the tactical route. Still gonna have folk who genuinely can't make an assigned date. Up to them to get a replacement I guess.

Aye, swaps are allowed in ours. Which means the bigger lads can swap to marshal the hill climb, or the sprinters can swap to marshal the 25TT, etc. Everyone has the same advantage though, so I don't think it makes a difference in the grand scheme.