The great diesel vs petrol vs ev vs everything debate

Modnote: This thread is a collection of off-topic posts split from the VW emissions scandal thread.




I hope this is finally the push that is needed to stop flogging diesels to every Mary and Joe in Ireland.

Most of the manufactures have successfully created NEDC compliance diesels as cheaply as possible. Look at all the new Ford 1.5 TDCi models that don't have adblue but utilise a NOx trap instead. Same with KIA/Hyundai. I can't see those passing any real life testing while staying within Euro 6 limits. PSA/VW are actually trying to do the right thing in comparison.

Luckily the small displacement petrols are getting better and better all the time (although maybe they'll start to hit emissions limits too soon enough).

Guaranteed Irish people won't even pay the tiny bit extra to to drive a petrol to save them maybe 50 Euro's a year in fuel. Most modern petrols are as cheap as diesels to tax now also.

Emissions will be the last thing on their mind buying a car unless it's Co2 they are brainwashed into thinking about,

I do care and why I don't burn petrol/diesel or solid fuel and use energy as efficiently as I currently am able to do. I use oil heating but have a well insulated house and so far get away with the heat on for 1 -2 hrs max a day. Some day I hope not to depend on Fossil fuels or greatly reduce my need. Getting off petrol/diesel is a good start, I haven't looked back since.

Even hybrids are better than diesel but more expensive then EV to Buy. So are plug ins.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Guaranteed Irish people won't even pay the tiny bit extra to to drive a petrol to save them maybe 50 Euro's a year in fuel. Most modern petrols are as cheap as diesels to tax now also.

Emissions will be the last thing on their mind buying a car unless it's Co2 they are brainwashed into thinking about,

I do care and why I don't burn petrol/diesel or solid fuel and use energy as efficiently as I currently am able to do. I use oil heating but have a well insulated house and so far get away with the heat on for 1 -2 hrs max a day. Some day I hope not to depend on Fossil fuels or greatly reduce my need. Getting off petrol/diesel is a good start, I haven't looked back since.

Even hybrids are better than diesel but more expensive then EV to Buy. So are plug ins.

Ive talked to people buying small diesels on PCPs , who in the three years will never in a month of Sunday's recover the extra cost of the purchase price of the diesel over the petrol equivalent in fuel savings. It's utter madness , as if the euro in one pocket ( capital costs ) are cheaper then the euros in the other pocket ( running costs )

Stupid illogical madness

pablo128

BoatMad wrote: »

Ive talked to people buying small diesels on PCPs , who in the three years will never in a month of Sunday's recover the extra cost of the purchase price of the diesel over the petrol equivalent in fuel savings. It's utter madness , as if the euro in one pocket ( capital costs ) are cheaper then the euros in the other pocket ( running costs )

Stupid illogical madness

But..... You'll get a whole lot less for the petrol come trade in time. So it's a vicious circle.

dr.fuzzenstein

Deleted User wrote: »

Guaranteed Irish people won't even pay the tiny bit extra to to drive a petrol to save them maybe 50 Euro's a year in fuel. Most modern petrols are as cheap as diesels to tax now also.

Emissions will be the last thing on their mind buying a car unless it's Co2 they are brainwashed into thinking about,

I do care and why I don't burn petrol/diesel or solid fuel and use energy as efficiently as I currently am able to do. I use oil heating but have a well insulated house and so far get away with the heat on for 1 -2 hrs max a day. Some day I hope not to depend on Fossil fuels or greatly reduce my need. Getting off petrol/diesel is a good start, I haven't looked back since.

Even hybrids are better than diesel but more expensive then EV to Buy. So are plug ins.

I'm just waiting for the right diesel hybrid.

colm_mcm

BoatMad wrote: »

Ive talked to people buying small diesels on PCPs , who in the three years will never in a month of Sunday's recover the extra cost of the purchase price of the diesel over the petrol equivalent in fuel savings. It's utter madness , as if the euro in one pocket ( capital costs ) are cheaper then the euros in the other pocket ( running costs )

Stupid illogical madness

The GMFV on the petrol will be less

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I'm just waiting for the right diesel hybrid.

Diesel hybrids didn't work, Peugeot tried it but they were too inefficient and the prius was actually more efficient by some margain and IIRC the Peugeot had that horrid automated manual.

It was found that the diesel engine had to run far longer to warm up so still not good enough for short driving.

pablo128

Deleted User wrote: »

It was found that the diesel engine had to run far longer to warm up so still not good enough for short driving.

Well I've learned something today. Never thought of that. Thanks.:)

Toyotafanboi

colm_mcm wrote: »

The GMFV on the petrol will be less

but you probably paid less for the petrol model initially too. i'd say the depreciation loss % wise diesel vs petrol could be rather similar.

dr.fuzzenstein

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Diesel hybrids didn't work, Peugeot tried it but they were too inefficient and the prius was actually more efficient by some margain and IIRC the Peugeot had that horrid automated manual.

It was found that the diesel engine had to run far longer to warm up so still not good enough for short driving.

Thanks, good to know.

R.O.R

Deleted User wrote: »

Diesel hybrids didn't work, Peugeot tried it but they were too inefficient and the prius was actually more efficient by some margain and IIRC the Peugeot had that horrid automated manual.

It was found that the diesel engine had to run far longer to warm up so still not good enough for short driving.

Volvo are still having a go at Diesel/Electric Hybrids. V60 is available as a D6 AWD Geartronic plug in Hybrid.

48g of Co2 = 1.8L/100km = 156.9 mpg
2.4 Diesel engine giving 220ps, with electric motors adding 68 electrical horsepower.

At €15,000 more than the next most expensive V60, we're highly unlikely to see any on Irish roads.

Lets put it another way, the Diesel Peugeot Hybrid wouldn't get near the U.S for emissions reasons it's just in Europe we treat Co2 as the worst of all emissions.

A proper EV is cheaper to buy and nothing beats it for cheap to run apart from your old banger that is worthless and dump all your money into the petrol tank.

Anyone who doesn't like the current 75-100 mile range (90-104 miles real range for the Leaf 30 Kwh 2016) then 2018 is the year of the 15-200 mile range electrics.

The BMW I3 is another really fun and fast car, 0-60 7 seconds that you can drive 75-80 miles for less than the cost of a 2 litre can of milk on night rate leccy! Same with the E-Golf, Leaf and Renault Zoe. The I3 is due a range upgrade in 2016 too.

I do like passing petrol stations,and my 84 mile commute costs less than 1.80 a day now with work charging.

If I were working normal 9-5 5 days a week it would be 420 miles and cost 9 Euro's with work charging and charging at night rate. but hey, diesel is great because you can drive 500 miles in one go bla bla. Not saying the current Gen electrics are perfect, I'd have to charge for 10 mins on the way home on the fast charger and a lot of people wouldn't do this for 90-95 miles a day but the more you drive EV the more you save !

JohnBoy26

Deleted User wrote: »

Lets put it another way, the Diesel Peugeot Hybrid wouldn't get near the U.S for emissions reasons it's just in Europe we treat Co2 as the worst of all emissions.

A proper EV is cheaper to buy and nothing beats it for cheap to run apart from your old banger that is worthless and dump all your money into the petrol tank.

Anyone who doesn't like the current 75-100 mile range (90-104 miles real range for the Leaf 30 Kwh 2016) then 2018 is the year of the 15-200 mile range electrics.

The BMW I3 is another really fun and fast car, 0-60 7 seconds that you can drive 75-80 miles for less than the cost of a 2 litre can of milk on night rate leccy! Same with the E-Golf, Leaf and Renault Zoe. The I3 is due a range upgrade in 2016 too.

I do like passing petrol stations,and my 84 mile commute costs less than 1.80 a day now with work charging.

If I were working normal 9-5 5 days a week it would be 420 miles and cost 9 Euro's with work charging and charging at night rate. but hey, diesel is great because you can drive 500 miles in one go bla bla. Not saying the current Gen electrics are perfect, I'd have to charge for 10 mins on the way home on the fast charger and a lot of people wouldn't do this for 90-95 miles a day but the more you drive EV the more you save !

Ev's aren't a good alternative to petrol/diesel at the moment. Ev's just aren't at the stage yet where they are suitable for everyday driving. Even with a 200 mile range they still won't be. They are grand if you are doing short distances but after that a diesel or a petrol is a much better and more viable option.

R.O.R

R.O.R wrote: »

Volvo are still having a go at Diesel/Electric Hybrids. V60 is available as a D6 AWD Geartronic plug in Hybrid.

48g of Co2 = 1.8L/100km = 156.9 mpg
2.4 Diesel engine giving 220ps, with electric motors adding 68 electrical horsepower.

At €15,000 more than the next most expensive V60, we're highly unlikely to see any on Irish roads.

Well plug ins are different, because you got a larger battery to begin with you can drive around in electric more reducing emissions but the diesel will have to run a hell of a lot longer to warm up especially the more you drive on electricity and the Prius from 2009 (MK III) uses the exhaust gases to warm up quicker, much quicker so I would say the Diesel plug in would be even less suitable as plug ins , unless they have an electric heater to warm the coolant which which would warm the engine but I can't see how this would work and heating a big lump of a diesel ? no, just no need for diesel plug ins. Electric is so cheap just add a bigger battery. The average Irish commute is 16 Kms a day , I drive 134 in the Leaf !

Plug ins cost a lot more then A Leaf for instance all for what , driving more than 80 miles a day ? no one would buy them, just too expensive even petrol plug ins, look at the Prius plug in, costing 38K or there abouts for 12 miles ev range and not sold in Ireland anyway because it would be subject to VRT,

The Opel Ampera was also not sold in Ireland due to the cost.

So the Leaf works for me, an excellent car and the 2016 30 Kwh would mean I could drive my 84 mile commute without charging, I don't need more than this if I do I fast charge 25 mins will get me another 50 miles easily. But I have work charging now so my commute costs about the cost of a bag of chips a day !!!

Leaf can be bought for 21,500 - 27K V 38-45 K for a plug in all to carry around an engine for piece of mind you don't run out of electricity ? I haven't ran out yet but we do have the diesel for the really long once or twice a year trip but in reality the leaf can do it but I need to keep miles off the leaf for the lease for the MK II or whatever is around in 2018 that I like.

There's also the more expensive E-Golf so anyone buying a VW should consider this, the usual price premium shouldn't come as a shock.

The E-Golf makes much less sense with the 30 Kwh 2016 Leaf on the way.

Toyotafanboi

Deleted User wrote: »

...electric car rant...

i do 180 miles a day, costs around €30 per day, i emit a shade over 200g/km, i have to fill my tank 3-4 times a week, my tax is €640 p/a and my car is as noisy, unrefined and quick as you like.

i love it

JohnBoy26

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Ev's aren't a good alternative to petrol/diesel at the moment. Ev's just aren't at the stage yet where they are suitable for everyday driving. Even with a 200 mile range they still won't be. They are grand if you are doing short distances but after that a diesel or a petrol is a much better and more viable option.

200 miles not suitable, now you're just taking the piss, if you drive 200 miles regularly so be it, but I'm sure you stop in 200 miles for rest , you'll always find an excuse to say something is bad.

I for one see no value in having a 500 mile soot box diesel when my 134 km commute can be covered easily in the EV especially with the 30 kwh leaf.

But no one is suggesting for a minute you buy an EV ,if you want petrol diesel plenty of choice for you.


They are however more than suitable for the majority, people don't see the cash they hand out a month never mind 2 months now for petrol/diesel. I guarantee if people got a bil every two months like they do for electricity/gas then a lot more people would change but they are willing to fill the tank with all that money and good for them, I spend it on other things. Not saying electrics are suitable for all.

Tesla promise 720 miles range by 2020 and 600 by 2018. Again I don't need this so it's a waste for me a big battery going to waste that I have to pay for.

josip

@Madlad did I read on another thread somewhere that you have a second car for longer journeys?
Or am I mixing you up with someone else?
Edit: Think I am, no offence intended

JohnBoy26

Deleted User wrote: »

200 miles not suitable, now you're just taking the piss, if you drive 200 miles regularly so be it, but I'm sure you stop in 200 miles for rest , you'll always find an excuse to say something is bad.

No actually I'm not taking the piss. 200 miles is just too small to suggest an Ev as a good alternative to diesel or petrol. 200 miles may look like a lot on paper but for anyone living outside of a city they'll know that 200 miles can be racked up in no time at all.

Deleted User wrote: »

I for one see no value in having a 500 mile soot box diesel when my 134 km commute can be covered easily in the EV especially with the 30 kwh leaf.

Maybe you're commute is covered and maybe you prefer an ev to a diesel and that's fair enough but tbh unless someone is just using the car to go straight to and from work then really the petrol/diesel option is much more convenient for most people as the car is usually used for more than just commuting to work. So while you might not see an advantage in a 500 mile range, it doesn't mean it's like that for everyone.

Deleted User wrote: »

But no one is suggesting for a minute you buy an EV ,if you want petrol diesel plenty of choice for you.

True there is plenty of choice but didn't you suggest it as an alternative to diesel?

Deleted User wrote: »

They are however more than suitable for the majority, people don't see the cash they hand out a month never mind 2 months now for petrol/diesel. I guarantee if people got a bil every two months like they do for electricity/gas then a lot more people would change but they are willing to fill the tank with all that money and good for them, I spend it on other things. Not saying electrics are suitable for all.

I really don't think a 200 mile range makes them suitable for the majority. Some yes, but at the moment not for most. Charging times and not enough charging points are also a hinderance

Deleted User wrote: »

Tesla promise 720 miles range by 2020 and 600 by 2018. Again I don't need this so it's a waste for me a big battery going to waste that I have to pay for.

But were you not suggesting these electric vehicle as alternatives to more traditionally powered cars? You seem to be taking your needs as if they are everyone's needs.

Toyotafanboi

Deleted User wrote: »

200 miles not suitable, now you're just taking the piss, if you drive 200 miles regularly so be it, but I'm sure you stop in 200 miles for rest , you'll always find an excuse to say something is bad.

I for one see no value in having a 500 mile soot box diesel when my 134 km commute can be covered easily in the EV especially with the 30 kwh leaf.

i do 90 miles out and 90 miles back, for work, the last thing i want to do on the way to work is pull in for a rest, that's what i slept the night before for.

the value of my car is that i can go 2-3 days, 350-400 miles without having to stop and refuel. pulling off the "motorway" for 10 minutes once every 3 days to refuel on my way home genuinely puts a dampner on my evening. it messes with the workflow of my life, it's a pain in the bollocks. it's the same level of inconvenience as going to make tea, realising you have no milk and having to pop to the shops to buy some, you're pissed off and you don't even want the tea anymore.

having to pull in, on my way home every day just to ensure i get home = hell.

JohnBoy26

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

i do 90 miles out and 90 miles back, for work, the last thing i want to do on the way to work is pull in for a rest, that's what i slept the night before for.

the value of my car is that i can go 2-3 days, 350-400 miles without having to stop and refuel. pulling off the "motorway" for 10 minutes once every 3 days to refuel on my way home genuinely puts a dampner on my evening. it messes with the workflow of my life, it's a pain in the bollocks. it's the same level of inconvenience as going to make tea, realising you have no milk and having to pop to the shops to buy some, you're pissed off and you don't even want the tea anymore.

having to pull in, on my way home every day just to ensure i get home = hell.

And that's only 10 minutes. Imagine having to stand around for hours waiting for the thing to charge :eek:

Toyotafanboi

yeah, it'd really have me bent out of shape sitting on a forecourt of a damp evening waiting for it to charge up.

i thought the mammy should look at an EV before she got the 500, she only works 5 miles from the house, rarely goes outside the town and was already in a decent car so cost to change to buy an EV wouldn't have been huge, so she stood to gain a small amount by getting rid of petrol costs. after having a bit of a look around there really weren't any viable options for her. the Twizy is weird as is the i-Miev, the Zoe actually undoes most of the saving when we took battery rental into account and that's pretty much it unless you want to buy a Leaf, but then you can get a 40+mpg Fiat 500 with a 5-600 mile (€50) range for the better part of €10k less.

JohnBoy26

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

And that's only 10 minutes. Imagine having to stand around for hours waiting for the thing to charge :eek:

Hours ? Tesla supercharger 200 miles 30 mins.

Sabre Man

Deleted User wrote: »

Hours ? Tesla supercharger 200 miles 30 mins.

Unfortunately they're rather scarce in Ireland at the moment.

JohnBoy26

Deleted User wrote: »

Hours ? Tesla supercharger 200 miles 30 mins.

ok now this is starting to get a bit ridiculous. How many of those stations are in Ireland? And how many golf/Passat drivers are going to be able to afford a telsa to avail of this high speed charging system?

josip

Volkswagen hasn't been great recently at backing future technologies.

It backed PD and CR turned out to be superior.
It backed diesel in general and now diesel's limitations are becoming painfully obvious.
If that trend continues, could Volkswagen's conversion to EV mean that Hydrogen Fuel Cells will turn out to be the superior technology?

JohnBoy26

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

ok now this is starting to get a bit ridiculous. How many of those stations are in Ireland? And how many golf/Passat drivers are going to be able to afford a telsa to avail of this high speed charging system?

You don't need a Tesla to use their super chargers, all the manufacturers need to do is make an ev with a battery large enough and capable of taking the power.

JohnBoy26

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

ok now this is starting to get a bit ridiculous. How many of those stations are in Ireland? And how many golf/Passat drivers are going to be able to afford a telsa to avail of this high speed charging system?

There are 4 due to be installed in 2016.

Dublin, Cork, Belfast and I think Galway. And there are usually about 7 on site.

JohnBoy26

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't need a Tesla to use their super chargers, all the manufacturers need to do is make an ev with a battery large enough and capable of taking the power.

Yeah but it's a case of them needing to make this and that which kind of proves my point about this technology just not being ready yet to rival diesel or petrol.

Toyotafanboi

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

yeah, it'd really have me bent out of shape sitting on a forecourt of a damp evening waiting for it to charge up.

You can have the heat on while you charge !

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

i thought the mammy should look at an EV before she got the 500, she only works 5 miles from the house, rarely goes outside the town and was already in a decent car so cost to change to buy an EV wouldn't have been huge, so she stood to gain a small amount by getting rid of petrol costs. after having a bit of a look around there really weren't any viable options for her. the Twizy is weird as is the i-Miev, the Zoe actually undoes most of the saving when we took battery rental into account and that's pretty much it unless you want to buy a Leaf, but then you can get a 40+mpg Fiat 500 with a 5-600 mile (€50) range for the better part of €10k less.

You could get a fiat 500 starting at 19,500 V 21,500 for the Leaf but the depreciation will be worse than the leaf and depending on mileage the leaf would cost about 300 Euro's per 20,000 Kms on night rate electricity.

The leaf is holding it's value pretty well.

La Fenetre

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

i thought the mammy should look at an EV before she got the 500, she only works 5 miles from the house, rarely goes outside the town and was already in a decent car so cost to change to buy an EV wouldn't have been huge, so she stood to gain a small amount by getting rid of petrol costs. after having a bit of a look around there really weren't any viable options for her. the Twizy is weird as is the i-Miev, the Zoe actually undoes most of the saving when we took battery rental into account and that's pretty much it unless you want to buy a Leaf, but then you can get a 40+mpg Fiat 500 with a 5-600 mile (€50) range for the better part of €10k less.

That's a classic example why people who very short 10-15 mile runs to work don't buy EV's either. Your Mammy probably spends less than €15 a week on petrol. That €10,000 saving over the purchase cost of the EV would buy her enough petrol for about 10 years, and she doesn't have to mess about with leads, cables, chargers, small range, and long runs having to be carefully planned and mapped in advance.

colm_mcm

Deleted User wrote: »

You can have the heat on while you charge !



You could get a fiat 500 starting at 19,500 V 21,500 for the Leaf but the depreciation will be worse than the leaf and depending on mileage the leaf would cost about 300 Euro's per 20,000 Kms on night rate electricity.

The leaf is holding it's value pretty well.

500s start at €13,400 though.

josip

La Fenetre wrote: »

That's a classic example why people who very short 10-15 mile runs to work don't buy EV's either. Your Mammy probably spends less than €15 a week on petrol. That €10,000 saving over the purchase cost of the EV would buy her enough petrol for about 10 years, and she doesn't have to mess about with leads, cables, chargers, small range, and long runs having to be carefully planned and mapped in advance.

Considering your logic though about a mammy who only spends €15 a week on petrol.

• Are leads and cables not the same thing?
• She won't be worrying about range if she's driving that little.
• She doesn't do any long runs at that level of fuel consumption
• Her servicing costs are lower and there are fewer things that can go wrong

I'm not an EV head by the way although I hope to be some day.
We own a VAG E288 2.0TDi that we do need. 800km /week and this summer we drove to Greece.
I'd have needed a 4,500km extension reel to do that in an EV.
But I am concerned about all the European kids I've given asthma to.

La Fenetre

josip wrote: »

Considering your logic though about a mammy who only spends €15 a week on petrol.

• Are leads and cables not the same thing?
• She won't be worrying about range if she's driving that little.
• She doesn't do any long runs at that level of fuel consumption
• Her servicing costs are lower and there are fewer things that can go wrong

I'm not an EV head by the way although I hope to be some day.
We own a VAG E288 2.0TDi that we do need. 800km /week and this summer we drove to Greece.
I'd have needed a 4,500km extension reel to do that in an EV.
But I am concerned about all the European kids I've given asthma to.

I'm not anti-EV either, I like them alot, they just don't make any economic, or convenient sense for a lot of people. She saves € 10,000 straight off the bat by not buying an EV, that in itself will pay her petrol costs for 10 years. If she buys an EV she's out 10,000 extra, still has to buy extra electricity every week, (granted only a few euro's worth), she'll have to spend a few hundred gettting the cabling/ wiring done by an electrician, then has to feck about outside in the wet with leads etc., trip hazards in the dark etc. and in the end the whole thing costs her money. And after all that, her petrol car will be a lot easier to sell on and trade in than any EV. I can't see what logic your using ?

Toyotafanboi

colm_mcm wrote: »

500s start at €13,400 though.

And are actually fantastic at holding value, depreciation is quite low.

JohnBoy26

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Yeah but it's a case of them needing to make this and that which kind of proves my point about this technology just not being ready yet to rival diesel or petrol.

Oh the technology is there, not for 500 miles in a hatch but 200 miles is about there and coming next year in the GM Bolt but sadly not to the U.K or Ireland.

As usual it will take Nissan to lead the way in 2018 while they leave the E.U car makers in the dark ages. But China want's a lot of electric cars to help reduce their clouds of smog from ICE cars and China is a huge market so this could change car makers minds.

The 30 Kwh leaf will cost 3 K extra but it will still be cheaper than when the Leaf was released in 2011.

Car makers will decide for us what we will drive at the end of the day and it will be legislators that make them switch to ev when ICE cars can no longer meet emissions regulations or afford to .

Sadly though the E.U car makers are trying to get the Euro 6 Nox emissions levels increased to more than today's Euro 5 standards and I think this should not be allowed to happen and it's not because they can't make EV it's because they don't want to but because for the beginning they won't make huge profits as they do now.

It's actually sad ,the 30 Billion Euro's or more VW will have to pay to fix the emissions in their diesels, they could have some damn good EV tech with 30 billion !

josip

josip wrote: »

Volkswagen hasn't been great recently at backing future technologies.

It backed PD and CR turned out to be superior.
It backed diesel in general and now diesel's limitations are becoming painfully obvious.
If that trend continues, could Volkswagen's conversion to EV mean that Hydrogen Fuel Cells will turn out to be the superior technology?

We have an electric infrastructure everywhere and no hydrogen infrastructure, And while Hydrogen can be refilled in a much shorter time in reality for most people 200 miles range is enough, charge times for EV won't ever be as fast as petrol/diesel or Hydrogen, it's possible but it could require massive upgrade to the electrical infrastructure.

The best thing about EV is you can charge at home and the car is ready over a few days for that 300+ mile drive people keep talking about then use super chargers for another 200 miles after a 30 min stop, this is what tesla owners enjoy already.

Most trips are less than 50 miles a day so most of a 300 mile range ev battery will lie idle most of the time and ready if you need it but I think most people will have the choice of different battery options.

100 miles, 200, 300 etc so you can buy what you need and use super charging for the odd times you need to travel a longer distance.

Hydrogen infrastructure will cost enormous amounts of money and it's not easy to store. You got to produce it which is hugely energy intensive and very inefficient so it's far more efficient to charge EV batteries.

You can produce your own electricity if you choose it's not easy to do that with hydrogen and storage is dangerous. Hydrogen will be taxed much more and expensive it's not so easy to increase electricity costs with the impact it would have on people and business.

Most car makers except Toyota believe hydrogen is the future. They've invested Billions and refuse to admit that they were wrong.

Toyota have absolutely 0 100% EV cars planned for the foreseeable future. And it's funny to watch Toyota adds for the Auris Hybrid "and it doesn't have to be plugged in" but they don;t advertise it costs a lot more to run and it's a lot more inefficient , Hybrids were good in their day just like diesel but there are better technologies today, if only ever car had been hybrid 10 years ago !

Perhaps hydrogen will find use in some commercial applications but unless you can make it from green energy or Nuclear then hydrogen is a complete and utter waste of energy.

Toyotafanboi

But sure isn't the sustainability factor of EV's in Ireland a bit of a joke until we start producing a meaningful amount of electricity from something other than fossil fuels?

One of the lads built his own wind turbine before, big enough yoke, can't remember the ratings tbhbut he said it was ****, he'd never get his monwy back on it and all he wanted it to do was heat the immersion, so I reckon the idea of your own personal wind turbine to power your leaf is pretty much a non runner.

mickdw

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Buy why could they get compensation ? for what ? most people don't care about emissions or they wouldn't drive diesel in the first place or burn coal in the fireplace.

"I'm entitled to compo because I thought I was driving a clean green diesel " ? lol cases should be thrown out !

This is not the EV thread.

In relation to your quote above, I think you are missing the point somewhat.
We do not know the outcome yet so there may be direct cause for compensation if the cars were altered in terms of power or cars required ad blue etc.
A more likely situation is that the dealers will see client after client referring to this scandal and even returning customers failing to do deals because they rightly or wrongly think they may be in line for compensation. That being the case, the dealers will be having crisis meetings with vw and sooner or later I think they will offer some form of trade in allowance on effected cars coming in as a goodwill gesture and to cut off numerous legal cases.
That being said, if a current owner could put together a snap shot on pricing and could demonstrate that used values have dropped, they would easily make a case for compensation. I not saying they have dropped but it's possible in the coming months. No doubt vw will keep advertised prices up but they won't be able to dictate the market price.

BoatMad

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Ev's aren't a good alternative to petrol/diesel at the moment. Ev's just aren't at the stage yet where they are suitable for everyday driving. Even with a 200 mile range they still won't be. They are grand if you are doing short distances but after that a diesel or a petrol is a much better and more viable option.

Actually not so, EV economics get even better the more miles you do. With fast charging charge delays are minimal and running costs extremely low. It's entirely feasible right now to run an EV ( I know )

BoatMad

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

And that's only 10 minutes. Imagine having to stand around for hours waiting for the thing to charge :eek:

I live 60 miles from Dublin. On my week long leaf trials I can do , the return journey that with a 15 minute fast charge in between. At a current cost of ..FREE. ( no charge at esb chargers at present )

Beat that

The chap doing 90 miles round trips would make a brilliant EV candidate , basically his inability to wait 15-20 minutes a day is costing him about 300 euros a month , or 1 euros for every minute waiting !!( week days only ) , so with an EV he could pay himself 60 euros an hour. !! Go EV

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

This is not the EV thread.

In relation to your quote above, I think you are missing the point somewhat.
We do not know the outcome yet so there may be direct cause for compensation if the cars were altered in terms of power or cars required ad blue etc.
A more likely situation is that the dealers will see client after client referring to this scandal and even returning customers failing to do deals because they rightly or wrongly think they may be in line for compensation. That being the case, the dealers will be having crisis meetings with vw and sooner or later I think they will offer some form of trade in allowance on effected cars coming in as a goodwill gesture and to cut off numerous legal cases.
That being said, if a current owner could put together a snap shot on pricing and could demonstrate that used values have dropped, they would easily make a case for compensation. I not saying they have dropped but it's possible in the coming months. No doubt vw will keep advertised prices up but they won't be able to dictate the market price.

I don't think there will be any case for direct compensation in the EU. As far as I see there no real effect of the software to the on road performance. So removing it will equally have no effect.

Even so , unless the power drop or consumption change was validated by NEDC tests , there would be no evidence to seek compensation for .

The us is different.

Toyotafanboi

i assume you mean me? i do 90 miles each way, 180 a day. it takes 2 hours (each way) if i get a good run at it, no way i would want to add another 30+ minutes a day (an extra 3 hours a week in the car) to that, personally.

don't get me wrong, i'd love to save €150 a week, but i'd have to spend 20k on a car that isn't as nice as my own and then extend my commute by 30 minutes a day, so the appeal really isn't there.

Toyotafanboi

the interesting thing is the tax you pay;

i know we aren't really comparing like for like here as property tax isn't based on Co2 and neither are old cars, but it would be interesting to do it with a current new build 3 bed semi vs a new 1.6 diesel something.

but my 02 car, emitting 200g/km over my 24k miles a year of driving emits 7680 kgs of Co2. my motor tax €640.

i was doing a job on what i would consider a typical enough irish building the other day, 3 bed, 2 bath, detached late 90's design, BER C3 Rated, around 200sq/m emitting 72kg/m2/year or 14400 kgs of Co2. their property tax €315, twice the emissions, half the tax.

now i know one has no bearing on another, it's just interesting to see. houses up until recently were much much MUCH higher polluters than cars, but nobody ever bats an eye.

Falcon L

Falcon L wrote: »

But... try buying a petrol, Focus size, automatic* in Ireland.

*need auto, no choice.

No Golf DSG ? 1.4 or 1.2 turbo's ?

JohnBoy26

Deleted User wrote: »

I noticed a substantial difference with the new windows and doors and the insulation in the walls and attic.

If it's sunny during the day I need very little heat, if for the night. Once the temps go below 0 for long enough then I need some heat but not a lot.

My next problem is an inefficient heating system, the boiler is about 70% efficient compared to 90 odd % for a modern one, then the lack of proper controls and individual room stats mean I have to rely on the much less but still effective normal radiator stat valve.

When the rads cool off the heating stays on and off until the time cuts off or I simply turn it off.

SO many Irish homes have no radiator stats at all and the heating is either on or off and this wastes a huge amount of oil.

If Irish people could burn Coal in their cars they would if they could and thought it was cheaper, so many people here don't even see the value of good tyres and buy cheap Chinese crap or remoulds !

We'll change to EV when car makers themselves stop making diesels and produce longer range electrics and they'll do this simply because it will be too expensive to make diesels. That day isn;t too far into the future and could happen as early as 2017 ? when Euro 6 regulations come into effect but probably 2018 before they have to comply.

After this it's AD Blue and that is expensive and can have issues, I don't think they will implement this into passenger cars in a hurry !

An ev still needs it's battery recharged every day or two (depending on you're mileage) . The power required for this is in all likelihood coming from the burning of fossil fuels.

gctest50

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

An ev still needs it's battery recharged every day or two (depending on you're mileage) . The power required for this is in all likelihood coming from the burning of fossil fuels.

but charging EV's at night is the best thing ever - saves the ESB reducing the output of the generators a bit

Toyotafanboi

and then again if we all starting charging our cars at night, the night time rate would be done away with.

gctest50

they might replace it withsome version of economy 10 ? bit more useful

3 hours in the afternoon (1.30pm - 4.30pm)
4 hours in the evening (8.30pm - 12.30am)
3 hours in early morning (4.30am - 7.30am)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_10

pablo128

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

and then again if we all starting charging our cars at night, the night time rate would be done away with.

All very well till you wake up one morning and find there's been a power outage during the night....

Toyotafanboi

pablo128 wrote: »

All very well till you wake up one morning and find there's been a power outage during the night....

sorry i'm late for work:

i forgot to plug in my car
the fuse went in the night

yeah, can't see that taking off either. not that it's the cars fault as such, but still...