WADA/IAAF corruption report ... mod post #2 and again #1283

Notwork Error

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2015/11/its-worse-than-we-thought-lrc-reacts-to-wada-russian-doping-report/

A quick Summary of the report from letsrun.

At least three Olympic track gold medallists in 2012 – Turkey’s Asli Cakir Alptekin (w1500), Russia’s Mariya Savinova (w800) and Russia’s Sergey Kirdyapkin (m50k racewalk) – were dopers and two of them – Alptekin and Kirdyapkin – definitely shouldn’t have even been at the Games. Eight of the nine abnormal biological passport readings for Turkey’s Asli Cakir Alptekin were recorded before the Olympics but the IAAF didn’t act until after she won gold. In the case of Kirdyapkin, the IAAF told Russia his biological passport was positive in November of 2011 – yet the Russia did nothing until after the Games. 2:18 marathoner and two-time World Marathon Major champ Liliya Shobukhova also shouldn’t have competed at the Games due to her biological passport.

Corruption went high up in Russia – the Russian FSB (CIA) had people in the Moscow lab and Sochi Olympic lab.

The cover up in Russia has continued well into 2015. The head of the Russian lab admits to destroying 1,417 samples in December 2014 after WADA specifically told to preserve them for this investigation.

Athletes in Russia were still doping this spring and summer and thought they could get away with the old way of doing business.

The Moscow anti-doping lab covered doping positives in return for cash payments.

A second “shadow” lab in Moscow, paid for by the city, helped athletes not test positive.

Coaches in Russia actively doped athletes and then at the same time demanded payments so these athletes they were doping did not test positive.

Athletes were tipped off in advance about out-of-competition testing.

Just as we’ve all expected, athletes expected they could compete dirty at the Russian National Championships.
Details on how Olympic 800m champ Mariya Savinova and World Marathon champ Liliya Shobukhova doped.

Athletes jotting down the numbers on their anonymous drug samples, and then getting those numbers to the lab so they wouldn’t test positive. Subsequently if someone wanted to spike a sample we assume the observers could just note the numbers and send them to the lab.

A WADA lab in Switzerland even destroyed samples they were not supposed to, yet we are supposed to believe in WADA’s ability to lead this fight.

Two gold medallists in the racewalk, Valeriy Borchin and Sergey Kirdyapkin continued to compete when they should have been banned.

Olympic silver medallist in the discus (since stripped) Darya Pishchalnikova paid her 30,000-ruble ($464) bribe to not test positive, but did end up testing positive and was so pissed that she contacted WADA about the whole scheme in 2012. Sadly nothing came out of her whistleblowing as she eventually retracted the claim. Then ARD aired its documentary and WADA took it more seriously.

This report is the way to protect athletes in the long-term. Russian athletes were forced to dope by coaches and the national federation and then extorted by the same people to cover up tests.

Athletes who should not have been allowed to compete in major championships because they had tested positive before were allowed to compete. Proven faked races took place to cover up the participation of athletes who were banned.

It was a full on state sponsored doping program and there is no doubt about it. WADA has it's issues but the Russians were exploiting the gaps. It's like saying it's the bank's fault that it got robbed because it left the safe open. If Russia didn't do any wrong, they wouldn't have to deal with this. The obvious truth is that the Russian federation, coaches and athletes were playing by their own rules and not of that in the interest of fairness in the sport. They have been doing much more damaging things to the sport than this scandal is. If they played by the rules in the first place, this whole episode would''ve never happened and pawning the blame on WADA is the easy option instead of facing up the problems the sport has. The UCI avoided when they had a chance after the festina affair and look what happened.


We can say this country or that country was at it too but the simple fact remains that the Russians have to be punished for their misdoings and some sort of marker has to be laid down that corruption and systematic doping will not be tolerated. The Russian anti-doping authority and the national federation have already let down clean Russian athletes by their actions and have done huge damage to the sport.

I feel sorry for any clean athletes who might miss out on the Olympics if they get banned but that's not WADA's fault, it was their own country that let them down and put them in that position and all the anger for that happening should be directed at no one but the Russian governing bodies and officials.

To say that Russia are the only ones who are knee deep in this is also untrue anyway, Isiah Kiplagat who is the head of athletics Kenya came out last week and said he thinks there is a good chance that Kenya will not be allowed in Rio.

TFBubendorfer

<mod>
I've closed the old thread as real-life events have moved on since the first post and the thread title no longer reflected the discussed topic.

Keep in mind the following rules, though:

- no doping speculation
- no "they're all at it" posts
- please try and remain on topic rather than get sidetracked into a slagging match
</mod>

Anyone interested in the actual text of the latest independent commission report, it's available here:
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2015/11/full-wada-independent-commission-report-on-russian-doping-scandal/

robinph

Can't see there being an equivalent state sponsored setup in the USA, they don't care enough to go to the bother. Corporate teams yes, along the same lines as cycling, but the state doesn't care.

It's not that hard to see how WADA missed what was going on, although they now have to tighten up how they authorise their labs in each country. WADA doesn't have the capacity to setup a lab in each member country so they have to get someone else to do the work, that someone else they have to trust to be doing what they are claiming to do.

What is so hard to believe that a lab in Moscow, with WADA accreditation, was able to do tests, find they were +ve, throw them in the bin and then send WADA results saying it was actually a -ve "honest guv". WADA had to take the word of the labs they had licensed to do their testing for them, but when you have a lab in Russia with Russian staff and FSB agents hanging around the doors probably helping to cover any tracks it was obviously fairly easy to get away with not letting on to their bosses at WADA what was going on.

WADA now has to tighten up how they authorise all of their licensed labs around the world as there was a gaping hole there. Were they guilty of anything themselves? Not sure. Ignorant and naive, yes. But they have only been around for a relatively short time and have been figuring out how to run these kind of anti doping systems as they go along, but are fighting against doping systems that have been in place for decades.

Clearlier

WADA could have done better but they aren't the problem, the IAAF are the problem (and Russia of course).

It's terrible for athletics that this corruption took place - it's good for athletics that this corruption has been discovered.

Given the credibility that this confers on the German documentary makers I'm hoping to see a further specific investigation into Kenyan athletics. I'm also expecting to see further investigations into those involved in the corruption. If (as seems likely) the corruption was more widespread than just Russian then I hope that those investigations will bring it to light.

dekbhoy

first things first Coe needs to resign just as FIFA needs to rid itself of Platini.

ThisRegard

Notwork Error wrote: »

To say that Russia are the only ones who are knee deep in this is also untrue anyway, Isiah Kiplagat who is the head of athletics Kenya came out last week and said he thinks there is a good chance that Kenya will not be allowed in Rio.

Pound himself mentioned that they may have issues with Kenya.

Sandwell

Here's Jon Snow's savaging of the either extremely gullible or extremely corrupt Lord Coe. Dude needs to resign if the IAAF is to have any chance of regaining some credibility.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBg6-_wrsOQ&feature=youtu.be

walshb

Root out the bad apples in Russia and elsewhere and move on. Replacing Coe will amount to fook all. He's a good man. Wants the best for athletics. He's a huge sports fan that was a clean athlete himself. It was a shock to him as much to us. VP of IAAF says he should have known, but that's too simplistic. His comparison to FIFA is laugabale, even if he was on their ethics committeee at some stage.

ultrapercy

walshb wrote: »

Root out the bad apples in Russia and elsewhere and move on. Replacing Coe will amount to fook all. He's a good man. Wants the best for athletics. He's a huge sports fan that was a clean athlete himself. It was a shock to him as much to us. VP of IAAF says he should have known, but that's too simplistic. His comparison to FIFA is laugabale, even if he was on their ethics committeee at some stage.

He is either complicit or incompetent (I fear the former)therfore unfit for office. If he is outed and replaced after root and branch reform it will do some good if not he is as well there as the next. Athletics is damaged to the point of cycling and there is no quick fix. Rightly or wrongly this looks like Russia has been thrown under the bus to save the sport as a whole.

robinph

Why is Coe gullible if he's not in on the corruption?

If the bribery is happening properly then the whole point is that you don't let other people in on it surely? That's why you bribe people.

menoscemo

robinph wrote: »

Why is Coe gullible if he's not in on the corruption?

If the bribery is happening properly then the whole point is that you don't let other people in on it surely? That's why you bribe people.

I think the magness article explains it best: http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2015/11/7-quick-thoughts-on-iaaf-corruption-and.html?m=1

SteveMagness wrote:

1. Seb Coe needs to answer questions.

Let's start with the obvious:
-He's been a part of the IAAF since 2003, a VP since 2007.
-He lavished praise on Diack, a man who has shown to have run perhaps the most corrupt regime in Sports, which is saying something.
-He was the head of the FIFA ethics division while vast corruption was going on and reported nothing.
-He has refused to give up his Nike consulting agreement and somehow has convinced himself it's not a Conflict of Interest, despite the entire world, cognitive behavior research, and anyone with a half a brain telling him that is not the case.
-When faced with the reality of these allegations, he initially blamed the journalist, trying to take a holier than thou approach of defending his sport, when the reality is that the regime he was a part of may have single handily killed his sport...for good.

So....

Either:
A. Seb Coe is the unluckiest man in the world and just happens to find himself surrounded by corruption. Which if that's the case, I'd suggest Seb do a better job of picking friends...
B. He is a horrible employee and the absolute worst person in the world to judge character, determine ethical violations, and should never have a job related to ethics ever again for the simple fact of so many scandals going on without him even sniffing a hint of it.
C. He has a lot of explaining to do.

It seems extreme, but read the above and ask if you can come to any other conclusion?

How in the world did Seb Coe find himself working with two of the most corrupt and scandal ridden leaders in the history of sport, Diack and Sepp Blatter??? That's impressive that he was able to cosy up to both, have high ranking jobs under both, and find out nothing while there...

It may seem like I'm being harsh, but if Coe truly cares about the sport as much as he says, then he owes the sport answers. He needs to admit to mistakes in judgement, apologize to athletes to journalist, to everyone involved.

The public, and the athletes he is now head of deserve an explanation.

Notwork Error

Looks like Rob Heffernan is going to be awarded Olympic bronze from London 2012.

The winner of the 50km walk Sergey Kirdyapkin has had all his times scratched and been retrospectively banned from 2009 to 2012 which will move Rob into the medals.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/athletics/am-i-dreaming-irelands-rob-heffernan-expected-to-be-upgraded-to-olympic-bronze-34184919.html

Sandwell

Leaving aside whether or not he should have had suspicions about his long-term colleague, Coe's reaction to the Sunday Times revelations in the summer suggested he believes that whistleblowers and journalists are attacking athletics for the sake of it - 'A declaration war on my sport'. If that's what he believed then he's clearly an idiot. On the other hand, if that was just bluster and spin, then he's probably complicit.

Of course there's also his time on the FIFa ethics committe where he clearly did the square root of feck all. Yes, he's either dumb or crooked. And he's a Tory so most likely both.

ThisRegard

walshb wrote: »

Root out the bad apples in Russia and elsewhere and move on. Replacing Coe will amount to fook all. He's a good man. Wants the best for athletics. He's a huge sports fan that was a clean athlete himself. It was a shock to him as much to us. VP of IAAF says he should have known, but that's too simplistic. His comparison to FIFA is laugabale, even if he was on their ethics committeee at some stage.

He worked in the FIFA ethics group during the height of FIFAs corruption, and he worked as VP for 7 years in the IAAF during this scandal. He took the McDaid stance of attacking everyone who even hinted at there being a problem.

He's either incredibly naive, useless or as bad as the rest.

Either way, he should step out of the IAAF.

walshb

Well, if some of you guys are looking for these organisations to be run like Carlsberg you will be waiting a fooking lifetime. Remove Coe and replace him won't stop athletes/organisations/countries/public firms/private firms or others trying to win via cheating. Like I said, remove this silly PED ban. Bring it in and regulate it.

robinph

menoscemo wrote: »

I think the magness article explains it best: http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2015/11/7-quick-thoughts-on-iaaf-corruption-and.html?m=1

SteveMagness wrote:

1. Seb Coe needs to answer questions.

Let's start with the obvious:
-He's been a part of the IAAF since 2003, a VP since 2007.
-He lavished praise on Diack, a man who has shown to have run perhaps the most corrupt regime in Sports, which is saying something.
-He was the head of the FIFA ethics division while vast corruption was going on and reported nothing.
-He has refused to give up his Nike consulting agreement and somehow has convinced himself it's not a Conflict of Interest, despite the entire world, cognitive behavior research, and anyone with a half a brain telling him that is not the case.
-When faced with the reality of these allegations, he initially blamed the journalist, trying to take a holier than thou approach of defending his sport, when the reality is that the regime he was a part of may have single handily killed his sport...for good.

The points there that need answering is what was he doing at FIFA Ethics, and to break with Nike.

Although I'm not certain what the "Ethics" division was meant to be doing, it probably wasn't meant to be investigating FIFA itself. If that role was to do with ensuring that FIFA was ethical, rather than maybe that the shirts that clubs sold were not made in sweatshops for instance, then he's missed a biggy. Other than us all knowing now that FIFA was corrupt and Coe had a job title with "Ethical" in it do we know what that actually was to do?

The IAAF president having deals with the commercial side of things is dodgy regardless of anything else and he should have dropped any of that type of thing on becoming the figurehead of the sport.

That he praised the former IAAF president isn't evidence of guilt, or even of being that gullible. Just that Diack was doing what the bribes were paying him to do. Were there any other voices coming out over the years against Diack? There certainly have been against Blatter for a while now, but until relatively recently there hasn't been a whole lot of murmurings about the IAAF.


Not saying that I believe Coe to be innocent, but there isn't actually anything come out against him yet other than the line of "well everyone else was at it so therefore you must have been too". I certainly don't believe that him not knowing about what was going on makes him guilty or the wrong person to now bring the IAAF back into order. Coe didn't know, but then neither did anyone else and it's taken this investigation to bring up all these details.

ultrapercy

walshb wrote: »

Well, if some of you guys are looking for these organisations to be run like Carlsberg you will be waiting a fooking lifetime. Remove Coe and replace him won't stop athletes/organisations/countries/public firms/private firms or others trying to win via cheating. Like I said, remove this silly PED ban. Bring it in and regulate it.

What will that achieve? If you legalise one form of cheating the cheaters will resort to some other form. It's not about drugs it's about gaining an advantake.

walshb

ultrapercy wrote: »

What will that achieve? If you legalise one form of cheating the cheaters will resort to some other form. It's not about drugs it's about gaining an advantake.

Like what? Getting on motorbikes?

The whole ethos of sport is to gain an advantage. It's already legally happening.

ultrapercy

walshb wrote: »

Like what? Getting on motorbikes?

The whole ethos of sport is to gain an advantage. It's already legally happening.

I think your just pretending to be stupid, hope so anyway.

walshb

ultrapercy wrote: »

I think your just pretending to be stupid, hope so anyway.

Keep hoping.

Your post was somewhat stupid. Of course sport is all about gaining an advantage, and right now PEDs is what they are using. If they can get away with using bikes or cars in the future, no doubt they will use them. As you said it's all about gaining an advantage.

shels4ever

walshb wrote: »

Well, if some of you guys are looking for these organisations to be run like Carlsberg you will be waiting a fooking lifetime. Remove Coe and replace him won't stop athletes/organisations/countries/public firms/private firms or others trying to win via cheating. Like I said, remove this silly PED ban. Bring it in and regulate it.

Sad to say but actually agree with some of that . Only way to reduce drugs in sports is to remove all money from sport. This would reduce but not get rid of cheating.

That been said Coe been allowed to be a Nike ambassador while VP of the IAAF and president is just crazy. Things are going on that you wouldn't get away with in any other business. Valentin been the IAAF treasurer and also head of Russian athletics these things just wouldn't wash in any other business. Coe was at the heart of this organization so shouldn't be involved in fixing it. Its upto each country to sort this our and I hope that Athletics Ireland have the balls to vote against this if asked.

ultrapercy

walshb wrote: »

Keep hoping.

Your post was somewhat stupid. Of course sport is all about gaining an advantage, and right now PEDs is what they are using. If they can get away with using bikes or cars in the future, no doubt they will use them. As you said it's all about gaining an advantage.

Must the context of every post be spelled out to you ? Was it necessary for me to state that I meant an illegal advantage when that was what was being discussed ? I know you can read because you can certainly Wright.

walshb

ultrapercy wrote: »

Must the context of every post be spelled out to you ?.

Well, I guess so. That's how conversations and clarity usually work via online chat!

libelula

Don't feed the trolls boys and girls

Colonialboy

walshb wrote: »

Keep hoping.

Your post was somewhat stupid. Of course sport is all about gaining an advantage, and right now PEDs is what they are using. If they can get away with using bikes or cars in the future, no doubt they will use them. As you said it's all about gaining an advantage.

If sports is all about gaining an advantage then
Sports governing bodies is all about making it a level playing field.

both have failed in this instance

never liked coe, was always an Ovett man myself

walshb

Colonialboy wrote: »

If sports is all about gaining an advantage then
Sports governing bodies is all about making it a level playing field.

It is not all about making it a level playing field.

If they or any organisations really want to make it a level playing field then they have absolute no chance whatsoever. Unless they can make all the countries and federations and clubs equal as regards access to training and technology and equipment and resources and funds.....?

Colonialboy

walshb wrote: »

It is not all about making it a level playing field.

If they or any organisations really want to make it a level playing field then they have absolute no chance whatsoever. Unless they can make all the countries and federations and clubs equal as regards access to training and technology and equipment and resources and funds.....?

you just contradicted yourself.

walshb

Colonialboy wrote: »

you just contradicted yourself.

No, I did not. I don't make silly mistakes.

Colonialboy

walshb wrote: »

No, I did not. I don't make silly mistakes.

you did it again ...

walshb

Colonialboy wrote: »

you did it again ...

Let's move on then!

youngrun

I dispute this report and most of it contents as a politically driven whitewash of a report bar any athlete already proven to have doped and banned
Some questions
What is the definition of state sponsored doping ,and how can it be proved legally
What specific new allegations that can result in charges have arisen as a result of this report
Why did wada or iaaf not pick up these issues in 2012 and before ? Were the london testers asleep ?
Were those who supposedly blew the whistle in the German documentary paid and what is their motive
Wada suggest life bans yet this has been ruled out legally why bring it up again
Presence of security services would this not be expected in a high security area and sensitive visit
Were samples destroyed old ones of no value
What is the Russian response ? Total denial or part
Why do the media and others not take account of the response from Russia etc before judgement passed

ThisRegard

What part of the fact that there has been admission of items within the report do you not understand?

robinph

youngrun wrote: »

I dispute this report and most of it contents as a politically driven whitewash of a report bar any athlete already proven to have doped and banned
Some questions
What is the definition of state sponsored doping ,and how can it be proved legally
What specific new allegations that can result in charges have arisen as a result of this report
Why did wada or iaaf not pick up these issues in 2012 and before ? Were the london testers asleep ?
Were those who supposedly blew the whistle in the German documentary paid and what is their motive
Wada suggest life bans yet this has been ruled out legally why bring it up again
Presence of security services would this not be expected in a high security area and sensitive visit
Were samples destroyed old ones of no value
What is the Russian response ? Total denial or part
Why do the media and others not take account of the response from Russia etc before judgement passed

State sponsored - a lab funded by the Moscow city government that was testing samples before passing them onto the proper WADA lab not good enough? The FSB ( read KGB ) being present certainly suggests interest from high levels of national government.

Things should have been picked up previously, but those who were going to fail tests were not sent to London 2012 presumably so not much the London Olympic labs could find then.

Delays being put on failed tests being disclosed for athletes that were in London, so that they could compete and win medals, then to try and make out that RUSADA were banning people they then banned those people from competing for two year, except for the middle of 2012 where for some reason the ban didn't apply?!?!?!

Not sure if the destroyed samples were of value or what date they were from, but destroying everything that you've held for years on the weekend before WADA turn up on your doorstep is exceedingly suspicious.

I would totally not be expecting a national security presence at a drug testing lab. There is a security issue around labs, but not in terms of getting the equivalent of Mi5/ CIA/ James Bond involved. It's high security in that they need to keep good tabs on the work that they are doing and ensuring the trace-ability of the samples taken. There is not a threat of terrorists or even burglars at the lab (other than the same at any other office block). Even a couple of cops stood outside would be weird and totally unnecessary, it's an office where they test urine.

walshb

John Treacy on RTE now. Asked how secure we are as a nation...who cares? Maybe less secure might see us a little closer to medals.🤓

Beasty

"State sponsored" also suggests that officials within the Russian Government knew what was going on and actively encouraged it or turned a blind eye. In particular in this case Dick Pound stated in connection with the Russian Sports Minister "It was impossible for him not to be aware of it. And if he’s aware of it, he’s complicit in it"

I do think that differentiates this situation from most if not all others since the goings on in East Germany 30+ years ago

Pherekydes

The IAAF never bothered about state-sponsored doping before. Several world records are still on the books from state-sponsored regimes.

Can't they just issue some TUEs after the fact and give the Rooskies a 'stern' warning?

Monty Python voice: Now don't do that again!

Beasty

Pherekydes wrote: »

The IAAF never bothered about state-sponsored doping before. Several world records are still on the books from state-sponsored regimes.

Can't they just issue some TUEs after the fact and give the Rooskies a 'stern' warning?

Monty Python voice: Now don't do that again!

The World has moved on. Things that were brushed under the carpet a few years ago are now subject to a lot more scrutiny. People are now expecting more action and the relevant governing bodies (UCI, FIFA, IOC, IAAF just to mention a few of the higher profile ones) now know their sponsors will not stand behind them if they continue to allow certain practices to continue. They all have had, or are having, wake-up calls and now face isolation and possible disintegration/replacement if they do not get their acts together. For those reasons I have little doubt this is the beginning of the end for those practices that the typical man on the street will find unacceptable.

Yes some individuals will continue to try and hold out, hoping they can bluff their way through to a prosperous retirement. However the problems across some of these organisations have now reached such a scale some very serious law enforcement agencies are getting involved and to be frank, they will not accept some of the crap some of these big players have to date got away with. So the gravy train is drying up. The law enforcement agencies are bearing their teeth, and a few of those who know a lot of what has gone on are seeking clemency by spilling the beans. The writing is well and truly on the wall.

clear thinking

I think youngrun raises some good points and I dont think the core cheating issue can be limited to one country.

in the case of russia, there was a clear motivational factor that may have influenced higher level support for doping, pressure as host of the world athletics champs and ditto sochi. Even if not centrally organised there would have been serious pressure to perform given the events that were on. It is also a cheap way to get good news nationalist stories.

These, however are not high security installations, its a cheapo lab in shytetown (in any country) and if I'm a scientist (in any country) and somebody rocks up with an envelope or gun there is a good chance I will do as asked. Chuck that in the bin, here's a grand - ok, chuck that in the bin, or we'll shoot you - ok.

Whats gas is there is comparatively f-all money in athletics so I can only imagined the ingrained doping in money sports - the most obvious being American football with consistent short bans, or stories of premier league players playing hide & seek with testers.

rom

Ok so in Russia its state involvement but to think that because a national body is not much good in a western society to organise this that its not going on is silly. Its just that in Russia that the governing body had the most control. In Japan that may be the company that has a corporate team, in Kenya the agent that gives the dream of riches, or in the US the shoe company that give the possibility of wealth. In all places if corruption is going on then its the group that has the most power as they have the most to gain.

Beasty

Bottom line on all of this is you need proof that stands up to legal scrutiny. There's no point in seeking to ban nations (or indeed individuals) because of strong suspicion. They will be straight to the Court of Arbitration in Sport to get it overturned and the banning organisation loses more credibility. In the current case it looks like there may be sufficient evidence to get something to stick. However I'm sure the lawyers from both sides are currently crawling all over this. These things take time to work through. There's no point in criticising people for inaction if any action they do take is likely to be overturned in due course. I seriously doubt whether any of us are close enough to what's going on to have a properly informed opinion on what should happen next (even if any of us are legal experts I seriously doubt we are in possession of all relevant facts).

wrstan

To say this is a politically driven whitewash of a report, to serve no purpose other than unfairly target Russia is just not a credible view in my opinion.

Dick Pound is one of the good guys here - everything I have ever read from him or seen of him, while head of WADA or since, has been consistent. I believe he wants to see drugs based cheating removed from all sport.

From what I can see, this report, although commissioned by WADA, has under Pound's leadership, rigorously retained its independence. It has clear findings against WADA (as well as the IAAF, RUSADA, ARAF, the Russian Ministry of Sport, the Moscow lab, the Lausanne lab). Based on the crap I have heard from Craig Reedie on this matter, I suspect that the IC under Pound's leadership, has been far more thorough, independent and hard hitting than Reedie would have liked. If it had been left to WADA under Reedie's leadership to carry out an internal investigation, I have no doubt that we would have got a politically influenced fudge that would ultimately have been meaningless.

Remember that while Seb and the IAAF still refuse to acknowledge the validity of the ARF documentary, which kicked all this off, and 12 months later are merely "looking at a range of options", Pound and his team have completed a very thorough investigation, amidst some very significant opposition, producing a detailed report with very precise, broad ranging and truly shocking findings.

The fact that there are other countries with major (or minor) drugs problems is a moot point. Pound clearly highlighted this at his press conference - I'd be surprised if the IAAF or WADA were pleased that he put on record "it would appear to me that Kenya has a problem". I would like to see those countries investigated just as thoroughly.

Pound is definitely one of the good guys! You don't have to look very far to see who the bad guys are - sadly it's a long list of non-independent and compromised individuals and organisations.

average_runner

wrstan wrote: »

To say this is a politically driven whitewash of a report, to serve no purpose other than unfairly target Russia is just not a credible view in my opinion.

Dick Pound is one of the good guys here - everything I have ever read from him or seen of him, while head of WADA or since, has been consistent. I believe he wants to see drugs based cheating removed from all sport.

From what I can see, this report, although commissioned by WADA, has under Pound's leadership, rigorously retained its independence. It has clear findings against WADA (as well as the IAAF, RUSADA, ARAF, the Russian Ministry of Sport, the Moscow lab, the Lausanne lab). Based on the crap I have heard from Craig Reedie on this matter, I suspect that the IC under Pound's leadership, has been far more thorough, independent and hard hitting than Reedie would have liked. If it had been left to WADA under Reedie's leadership to carry out an internal investigation, I have no doubt that we would have got a politically influenced fudge that would ultimately have been meaningless.

Remember that while Seb and the IAAF still refuse to acknowledge the validity of the ARF documentary, which kicked all this off, and 12 months later are merely "looking at a range of options", Pound and his team have completed a very thorough investigation, amidst some very significant opposition, producing a detailed report with very precise, broad ranging and truly shocking findings.

The fact that there are other countries with major (or minor) drugs problems is a moot point. Pound clearly highlighted this at his press conference - I'd be surprised if the IAAF or WADA were pleased that he put on record "it would appear to me that Kenya has a problem". I would like to see those countries investigated just as thoroughly.

Pound is definitely one of the good guys! You don't have to look very far to see who the bad guys are - sadly it's a long list of non-independent and compromised individuals and organisations.

Thats a very good post.

wrstan

It is also worth noting that Pound states in his covering note:

This report is provided in partial fulfillment of the mandate of the Independent Commission. There will be another Report to deal with the IAAF and the extended mandate of the Independent Commission.

So clearly more to come

dna_leri

Beasty wrote: »

Bottom line on all of this is you need proof that stands up to legal scrutiny. There's no point in seeking to ban nations (or indeed individuals) because of strong suspicion. They will be straight to the Court of Arbitration in Sport to get it overturned and the banning organisation loses more credibility. In the current case it looks like there may be sufficient evidence to get something to stick. However I'm sure the lawyers from both sides are currently crawling all over this. These things take time to work through. There's no point in criticising people for inaction if any action they do take is likely to be overturned in due course. I seriously doubt whether any of us are close enough to what's going on to have a properly informed opinion on what should happen next (even if any of us are legal experts I seriously doubt we are in possession of all relevant facts).

This is key.
Any sanction that the IAAF takes against Russia (or anyone else) has to stand up in court (CAS). Unless the IAAF rules that Russia signed up to includes a clause that permits the banning of a country under certain specified conditions (and the IAAF can prove they meet those conditions), then they will not be able to do it. If the rules only allow for banning of individual athletes, then Russia would get reinstated by CAS. They will also need to be able to prove culpability to a very high standard (probably greater than reasonable doubt) and also justify the length of the ban.

shels4ever

wrstan wrote: »

It is also worth noting that Pound states in his covering note:



So clearly more to come

Strange as Pound publicly backed Coe even before the next report comes out, seem a bit strange.

Clearlier

dna_leri wrote: »

This is key.
Any sanction that the IAAF takes against Russia (or anyone else) has to stand up in court (CAS). Unless the IAAF rules that Russia signed up to includes a clause that permits the banning of a country under certain specified conditions (and the IAAF can prove they meet those conditions), then they will not be able to do it. If the rules only allow for banning of individual athletes, then Russia would get reinstated by CAS. They will also need to be able to prove culpability to a very high standard (probably greater than reasonable doubt) and also justify the length of the ban.

The devil may well be in the detail here but I think that I heard somewhere that in order to compete in the olympics, world championships etc. a country has to have an approved anti-doping policy. I'd imagine that that would be one possible line against Russia. I don't know how approval works or indeed how it work for stateless athletes.

wrstan

shels4ever wrote: »

Strange as Pound publicly backed Coe even before the next report comes out, seem a bit strange.

I agree with you there, although I wouldn't have described what he said in Monday's press conference as a ringing endorsement. But it was a bit strange in the light of everything.

clear thinking

This is a first - Russia admits doping problem and points finger at brits being worse.

Now I am confused!

http://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/34785562

On a slightly more serious note, they are onto a safe bet throwing mud as doping is clearly endemic.

youngrun

ThisRegard wrote: »

What part of the fact that there has been admission of items within the report do you not understand?

Admission of what items ? Specify?

youngrun

robinph wrote: »

State sponsored - a lab funded by the Moscow city government that was testing samples before passing them onto the proper WADA lab not good enough? The FSB ( read KGB ) being present certainly suggests interest from high levels of national government.

How does a lab operation equate to doping ? Totally different things ? Irish times states WADA did not know function of supposed second lab
What is wrong with FSB present ? Would security services or police not expected to be present to ensure security of the lab?

Things should have been picked up previously, but those who were going to fail tests were not sent to London 2012 presumably so not much the London Olympic labs could find then.

Delays being put on failed tests being disclosed for athletes that were in London, so that they could compete and win medals, then to try and make out that RUSADA were banning people they then banned those people from competing for two year, except for the middle of 2012 where for some reason the ban didn't apply?!?!?!

Not sure if the destroyed samples were of value or what date they were from, but destroying everything that you've held for years on the weekend before WADA turn up on your doorstep is exceedingly suspicious.

I would totally not be expecting a national security presence at a drug testing lab. There is a security issue around labs, but not in terms of getting the equivalent of Mi5/ CIA/ James Bond involved. It's high security in that they need to keep good tabs on the work that they are doing and ensuring the trace-ability of the samples taken. There is not a threat of terrorists or even burglars at the lab (other than the same at any other office block). Even a couple of cops stood outside would be weird and totally unnecessary, it's an office where they test urine.

In a high profile case surely ensuring security is essential

Also ensuring that the likes of WADA or their payees didnt tamper with the samples also perhaps??:D

youngrun

Beasty wrote: »

"State sponsored" also suggests that officials within the Russian Government knew what was going on and actively encouraged it or turned a blind eye. In particular in this case Dick Pound stated in connection with the Russian Sports Minister "It was impossible for him not to be aware of it. And if he’s aware of it, he’s complicit in it"

I do think that differentiates this situation from most if not all others since the goings on in East Germany 30+ years ago

Thats just a statement not a proof. Anyone can say that.
You could argue the same about the US being aware of Armstrong, Balco etc- also state backed so?