Would you report a serial fare evader

Pipmae

Just wondering if as a fellow commuter you would report a serial fare evader. I am 100% certain the person is fare evading and I'm 100% certain it isn't a one off.

Just curious to see what others would do.

sonny.knowles

You will get the usual 'None of your business', 'Snitches get stitches', 'Victimless crime' etc, but ultimately the more fare evasion there is, the more you pay, either directly or through increates in subvention to make up the shortfall.

If someone is consistently fare evading (i.e. stealing) then he / she deserves to be caught and punished and billed.

Is there a mechanism to report suspected fare evasion? How would they catch the person?

Louche Lad

Pipmae wrote: »

Just wondering if as a fellow commuter you would report a serial fare evader. I am 100% certain the person is fare evading and I'm 100% certain it isn't a one off.

Just curious to see what others would do.

Yes.

howiya

Pipmae wrote: »

Just wondering if as a fellow commuter you would report a serial fare evader. I am 100% certain the person is fare evading and I'm 100% certain it isn't a one off.

Just curious to see what others would do.

No

feargale

howiya wrote: »

No

Why not?

Pipmae wrote: »

Just curious to see what others would do.

Report, but be mindful of the defamation laws.

howiya

feargale wrote: »

Why not?




Report, but be mindful of the defamation laws.

One, it's none of my business. Two, what's in it for me? You're second sentence is a fairly good reason not to get involved.

I pay my fare for every journey but there are always going to be people who don't. It's not my job to report people for fare evasion. Dublin Bus/Luas/Irish Rail all employee revenue protection officers. Let them deal with it. Whether or not they employ enough of them is another issue but I don't offer to drive the bus if there's a shortage of drivers.

And before someone says its my business because if more people paid the right fare, fares will be lower for everyone, how many times was fare evasion mentioned in the recent NTA fare determinations? I can't find it once in the Dublin Bus determination.

schemingbohemia

feargale wrote: »

Why not?




Report, but be mindful of the defamation laws.

No defamation if you just mention that there's a person getting off the 0840 Dart into Lansdowne Road without paying and it would be worth checking the station out.

I would report.

cython

howiya wrote: »

One, it's none of my business. Two, what's in it for me? You're second sentence is a fairly good reason not to get involved.

I'd report it if there were a clear and trustworthy channel for doing so, but this being Ireland, if you search for it, this thread is the third result, and the two before are no better

howiya wrote: »

I pay my fare for every journey but there are always going to be people who don't. It's not my job to report people for fare evasion. Dublin Bus/Luas/Irish Rail all employee revenue protection officers. Let them deal with it. Whether or not they employ enough of them is another issue but I don't offer to drive the bus if there's a shortage of drivers.

I take it by logical extension that welfare fraud is also A-ok with you if someone gets away with it, because the state employs people to monitor that too? It's not a huge leap to conclude this, by the way. I'm (now - I used to commute with Irish Rail, but have since switched to cycling) an infrequent user of public transport, but it still irks me to have people sauntering through on the rare occasions I do travel and thus pay for a ticket.

howiya wrote: »

And before someone says its my business because if more people paid the right fare, fares will be lower for everyone, how many times was fare evasion mentioned in the recent NTA fare determinations? I can't find it once in the Dublin Bus determination.

DB are probably much less prone to fare evasion than Luas or IE due to having to pass a driver and thus have/purchase at least some form of ticket, so possibly not a great example. I'm not going to trawl through all the determinations to prove your point either, but even then since the companies do have a responsibility to prevent fare evasion, I'm not sure that they'd realistically use a failure to do so as basically justification for asking for more money.

Pipmae

Thanks folks. I'm still thinking about what I'll do.

In the meantime the fact this thread is showing up so fast on a Google search :eek: has prompted me to contact a mod to request it to be deleted.

howiya

cython wrote: »

I take it by logical extension that welfare fraud is also A-ok with you if someone gets away with it, because the state employs people to monitor that too? It's not a huge leap to conclude this, by the way. I'm (now - I used to commute with Irish Rail, but have since switched to cycling) an infrequent user of public transport, but it still irks me to have people sauntering through on the rare occasions I do travel and thus pay for a ticket

I never said I was ok with it. I simply stated that it happens. Would I report it? No.

Hilly Bill

If anyone is concerned about serial fare evaders, all it takes is an anonymous call to the Rpu.

laoch na mona

no I wouldn't, call it a healthy disrespect for authority or just plain lack of interest in what someone else does, but I just don't see why you would

n97 mini

Would you report a serial shop lifter? It amounts to the same thing, stealing.

howiya

Pipmae wrote: »

Thanks folks. I'm still thinking about what I'll do.

In the meantime the fact this thread is showing up so fast on a Google search :eek: has prompted me to contact a mod to request it to be deleted.

Why are you worried about it showing up on google?

questionmark?

Would the posters that are saying don't report it say the same thing if they saw a burglary in progress? Ah well it's nothing to do with me and sure aren't the Guards paid for looking into that type of thing. Theft is theft. Report it OP especially if that person is doing it everyday.

Jamie2k9

IE will look into it if you report them and usually quiet quickly as well.

If you don't want to report it directly then just post the train service and where they get on/off here and IE read this often or I'm sure another poster might drop them a link.

howiya

questionmark? wrote: »

Would the posters that are saying don't report it say the same thing if they saw a burglary in progress? Ah well it's nothing to do with me and sure aren't the Guards paid for looking into that type of thing. Theft is theft. Report it OP especially if that person is doing it everyday.

Using your theft is theft logic should fare evasion also be reported to the Gardaí?

To answer your question if I saw a burglary in progress I would call the Gardaí as I would be worried for the safety of the property's occupants.

The OP is worried about this thread appearing on google. Other's have said it can be reported anonymously. If people want to report others to the relevant authority in whatever example you produce, they should at least have the courage to be open and honest about it.

magicbastarder

howiya wrote: »

Using your theft is theft logic should fare evasion also be reported to the Gardaí?

the difference being that IE have their own staff specifically for dealing with these issues. the people specifically tasked with investigating burglaries are the gardai.

questionmark?

howiya wrote: »

Using your theft is theft logic should fare evasion also be reported to the Gardaí?

To answer your question if I saw a burglary in progress I would call the Gardaí as I would be worried for the safety of the property's occupants.

The OP is worried about this thread appearing on google. Other's have said it can be reported anonymously. If people want to report others to the relevant authority in whatever example you produce, they should at least have the courage to be open and honest about it.

OK using your logic and take away the safety of the occupants part. If you saw someone nicking a bike on the street that was chained up but they cut through it. The owner isn't around. What do you do? Shrug your shoulders???

Look fair evasion is not acceptable. Everyone pays for it in higher ticket prices. It's the same in shops, they factor in theft to the prices in order to cover the fact they know some stock will be nicked. It's pretty simple, you want a service, you pay for the service. It's not rocket science.

howiya

questionmark? wrote: »

OK using your logic and take away the safety of the occupants part. If you saw someone nicking a bike on the street that was chained up but they cut through it. The owner isn't around. What do you do? Shrug your shoulders???

Look fair evasion is not acceptable. Everyone pays for it in higher ticket prices. It's the same in shops, they factor in theft to the prices in order to cover the fact they know some stock will be nicked. It's pretty simple, you want a service, you pay for the service. It's not rocket science.

I'd ring the Gardaí as per previous example. Any more of these you want to trot out?

I haven't once said fare evasion is acceptable btw

kidneyfan

questionmark? wrote: »

Look fair evasion is not acceptable. Everyone pays for it in higher ticket prices.

That's a childish thing to say. The mechanism by which ticket prices are set is far more complex than you affect to believe.

OP I am sure you can report anonymously. For your own sake name the train but not the passenger.

goingnowhere

kidneyfan wrote: »

That's a childish thing to say. The mechanism by which ticket prices are set is far more complex than you affect to believe.

No its not its an entirely reasonable thing to say

1. If fare evaders all paid, revenue up, loss down justification to increase fares reduced

2. If fare evaders no longer travel, less crowding new passengers travel so revenue goes up, or Irish Rail can get away with shorter trains and cuts costs

questionmark?

kidneyfan wrote: »

That's a childish thing to say. The mechanism by which ticket prices are set is far more complex than you affect to believe.

OP I am sure you can report anonymously. For your own sake name the train but not the passenger.

Am no its not. What planet are you on. There is a lot of factors put into goods/service prices and theft is just one them.

howiya

goingnowhere wrote: »

2. If fare evaders no longer travel, less crowding new passengers travel so revenue goes up, or Irish Rail can get away with shorter trains and cuts costs

What percentage of people travelling do you think evade the fare? I highly doubt it's enough to reduce crowding

Plus why would they stop travelling? I assume their journey is necessary so if they're caught they'll remain on the service after being issued with a standard fare and hopefully pay their fare the next time they travel

howiya

questionmark? wrote: »

Am no its not. What planet are you on. There is a lot of factors put into goods/service prices and theft is just one them.

I would imagine fare evasion doesn't happen on services like the Swords Express or Aircoach. Are their prices lower because of this?

bk

howiya wrote: »

I would imagine fare evasion doesn't happen on services like the Swords Express or Aircoach. Are their prices lower because of this?

Yes, of course their prices are lower.

If they had people stealing from them, then of course they would have to charge everyone more, just like all companies who suffer from theft do.

Honestly too many people seem to think fare evasion isn't a crime and that it is ok.

It really isn't, it is a crime, theft, no different then someone walking into a shop and shop lifting.

The people who fare evade are absolutely criminals and should frankly be ashamed of themselves.

kidneyfan

bk wrote: »

Yes, of course their prices are lower.

If they had people stealing from them, then of course they would have to charge everyone more, just like all companies who suffer from theft do.

Honestly too many people seem to think fare evasion isn't a crime and that it is ok.

It really isn't, it is a crime, theft, no different then someone walking into a shop and shop lifting.

The people who fare evade are absolutely criminals and should frankly be ashamed of themselves.

I agree with everything you say apart from the first two sentences.

6541

Irish people using Bondi Junction train station in Sydney normally either get OAP tickets or Student Tickets from the automated ticket dispensing machine located in the station. This is fraud on a national level. The Train conductors usually ask for names and there seems to be a lot of John and Mary Murphy's using that line for some reason !

Idbatterim

probably not, there are hundreds of thousands doing it on a daily basis and the government say it is legal for them...

Banjoxed

If there was a concerted effort at Revenue protection by the CIE group then this wouldn't have to arise.

Kev W

Idbatterim wrote: »

probably not, there are hundreds of thousands doing it on a daily basis and the government say it is legal for them...

Who are you referring to?

LXFlyer

Banjoxed wrote: »

If there was a concerted effort at Revenue protection by the CIE group then this wouldn't have to arise.

To be fair - Dublin Bus and Irish Rail have both stepped up the levels of RPU checks in 2015 and they are far more visible than before.

Banjoxed

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair - Dublin Bus and Irish Rail have both stepped up the levels of RPU checks in 2015 and they are far more visible than before.

I believe the roll out of the chipped FTP will help as well.

kidneyfan

Banjoxed wrote: »

I believe the roll out of the chipped FTP will help as well.

What is an ftp?

howiya

bk wrote: »

Yes, of course their prices are lower.

If they had people stealing from them, then of course they would have to charge everyone more, just like all companies who suffer from theft do.

Honestly too many people seem to think fare evasion isn't a crime and that it is ok.

It really isn't, it is a crime, theft, no different then someone walking into a shop and shop lifting.

The people who fare evade are absolutely criminals and should frankly be ashamed of themselves.

Lower by how much? What percentage? If I changed my mind about reporting fare evasion in the morning how much would my fare drop by?

Out of interest how many people have you reported for fare evasion?

Losty Dublin

kidneyfan wrote: »

What is an ftp?

Free Travel Pass.

howiya

Banjoxed wrote: »

If there was a concerted effort at Revenue protection by the CIE group then this wouldn't have to arise.

This is essentially why I have no interest in reporting fare evasion. If the companies were interested in revenue protection there'd be less of a problem. In other countries you see a much higher presence of RPU officers.

These companies are perfectly capable of helping themselves but choose not to. Granted as one poster has said Dublin Bus and Irish Rail have made improvements in this area. I have had my ticket checked once on a Dublin Bus this year as opposed to none in previous years.


Coupled with that the government ie the owner of CIE have granted free travel to almost half the population while its constituent companies are on their knees financially and won't do anything about it because it'll cost votes.

Public transport has to be paid for. I pay my way but as I said in my first post explaining why I wouldn't report, there simply isn't anything in it for me. In contrast to examples with the Gardaí a poster put to me, it could be my house, my bike on the street.

questionmark?

howiya wrote: »

I would imagine fare evasion doesn't happen on services like the Swords Express or Aircoach. Are their prices lower because of this?

We are speaking about Irish Rail here not private companies.

They don't receive government funding to make up the deficit each year. If everyone paid their way would funding still be required? Yep but it would be nice if the funding was a little smaller due to all passengers paying.

dutopia

questionmark? wrote: »

Would the posters that are saying don't report it say the same thing if they saw a burglary in progress? Ah well it's nothing to do with me and sure aren't the Guards paid for looking into that type of thing. Theft is theft. Report it OP especially if that person is doing it everyday.

That's a bit of a false analogy.

Yes, it's theft in both instances, but the level of theft and implications in both situations is vastly different.

bk

howiya wrote: »

Out of interest how many people have you reported for fare evasion?

One.

Good looking, well dressed, girl gets on the number 7 in front of me and asks for the cheapest fare. Driver looks suspiciously at her and asks where she is going, she says a street that would be within this fare.

Well she happens to sit a few seats in front of me upstairs and I notice she is still sitting there when I get off at the RDS, way beyond where she said she wanted to get off and well beyond her fare zone.

Well I told the driver when I got off and he said yup, I guess she would be and that he will pull her up when she gets off.

I know that means she probably just got a telling off rather then a €100 fine, but at least it is something.

Honestly I don't know why people think it is ok leaving people get a way with theft?

Crime is crime and we all suffer for it.

howiya

questionmark? wrote: »

We are speaking about Irish Rail here not private companies.

They don't receive government funding to make up the deficit each year. If everyone paid their way would funding still be required? Yep but it would be nice if the funding was a little smaller due to all passengers paying.

The OP never mentioned Irish Rail

magicbastarder

speaking of fare evasion, i'm always amused at the number of people who use the luas to travel between harcourt and stephen's green..

twice i've been on the luas where inspectors have gotten on at that stretch, and twice had to listen to hapless commuters explaining 'but i was only going one stop!?'

howiya

bk wrote: »

One.

Good looking, well dressed, girl gets on the number 7 in front of me and asks for the cheapest fare. Driver looks suspiciously at her and asks where she is going, she says a street that would be within this fare.

Well she happens to sit a few seats in front of me upstairs and I notice she is still sitting there when I get off at the RDS, way beyond where she said she wanted to get off and well beyond her fare zone.

Well I told the driver when I got off and he said yup, I guess she would be and that he will pull her up when she gets off.

I know that means she probably just got a telling off rather then a €100 fine, but at least it is something.

Honestly I don't know why people think it is ok leaving people get a way with theft?

Crime is crime and we all suffer for it.

Is it something? Unless she got a fine it's nothing.

I don't know how old you are but I'll assume you've been using public transport for a while and you've only reported one person. Is that the only person you've ever seen evade their fare?

I note you haven't answered my other question. Could you please back up your earlier statement about fares being cheaper on aircoach and swords express?

Maybe you can't because I highly doubt these companies allow people to travel without paying their fare. It is easier for them obviously.

questionmark?

dutopia wrote: »

That's a bit of a false analogy.

Yes, it's theft in both instances, but the level of theft and implications in both situations is vastly different.

No its not an false analogy at all. I don't know what your reading but we are not talking about private companies and any RPU they may have. If you want to talk about theft and pricing structures of these then I suggest you start a new thread.

And before you say it, I'd feel the same about theft from any company.

questionmark?

howiya wrote: »

The OP never mentioned Irish Rail

My apologies, I suppose all the posts with IR, Irish rail and revenue protection units mentioned led me astray.

Anyway back on topic
OP report it if you wish, if you genuinely suspect theft there is nothing wrong with reporting it.

On the other hand, if you think like other posters and think because the theft doesn't effect you directly so you dont mind ignoring it go ahead and do nothing.

Cienciano

questionmark? wrote: »

Would the posters that are saying don't report it say the same thing if they saw a burglary in progress? Ah well it's nothing to do with me and sure aren't the Guards paid for looking into that type of thing. Theft is theft. Report it OP especially if that person is doing it everyday.

questionmark? wrote: »

OK using your logic and take away the safety of the occupants part. If you saw someone nicking a bike on the street that was chained up but they cut through it. The owner isn't around. What do you do? Shrug your shoulders???

Look fair evasion is not acceptable. Everyone pays for it in higher ticket prices. It's the same in shops, they factor in theft to the prices in order to cover the fact they know some stock will be nicked. It's pretty simple, you want a service, you pay for the service. It's not rocket science.

I'd argue that theft is not as black and white as you make out. There's different levels of theft and the fact that the OP isn't sure should they report it or not reflects that.
For instance, taking a grape in a shop is theft, so is burglarly. The two are hardly comparible. A work mate taking a biro home from the office is theft, it hardly compares to a serial shop lifter.
Personally I wouldn't report the fair evaider, it's not worth bothering about imho.

Pipmae

Just to confirm it is Irish Rail and I have made a decision to report it.

I have seen enough to suspect this is long term fare evasion. Hopefully Irish Rail will gather enough evidence against them to prosecute for serial fare evasion through the courts rather than smacking them with a once off fine.

If the fare evader was to buy an annual ticket for their daily journey then they'd have to pay in excess €2,000.

Mahogany

questionmark? wrote: »

Would the posters that are saying don't report it say the same thing if they saw a burglary in progress?

Do not compare fare evasion to burglary. Burglary is an attack on someones personal domain, a horrific experience if people are home when it happens, an entirely different thing to fare evasion.

You have to consider why people dodge fares. Maybe they can't afford it but they need to get the the hospital/social welfare office etc and how else are they meant to get there.

Public Transport is very expensive in this country, and that's why MOST fare evasion happens.

highdef

It's still theft though

Hoboo

OP are you serious? Is your life that perfect you have nothing better to do than play transport police?

Here's an idea, do some volunteer work, make a positive contribution in someone's life rather than a negative one.

howiya

Mahogany wrote: »

You have to consider why people dodge fares. Maybe they can't afford it but they need to get the the hospital/social welfare office etc and how else are they meant to get there.

While I don't agree with not paying your fare I think there is something in this. I was tweeting to Luas the other day giving out about the service. They didn't reply but their last reply was to a lady who complained that she was late for a hospital appointment because the machine wouldn't let her pay her fare with a debit card.

They didn't apologise but simply pointed that there was a €5 minimum on transactions. The lady had read the Luas website to see if the accept card.

Under their FAQ's they say this

How can I purchase a single or return ticket?
Ticket Vending Machines are located at every stop. They accept coins, notes, laser and credit cards, and also give change. Please note that tickets may not be purchased onboard the trams. You must have a valid ticket at all times on board the tram.

In another FAQ they do mention the €5 limit. But my point is that public transport operators do make it hard for people to pay for their services. They clearly state here that you can buy a single ticket with a debit card and then you get to the platform and they don't let you. Luas also refuse to take legal tender in the form of 1c, 2c, and 5c. Again not mentioned in the quoted response.

Minimum top up of your Leap Card is €5. Nobody seems to realise that some people may not have five euro they can afford to put on a leap card for a €1.50 journey. The 50 cent saving could mean the world to that person but they're not able to access it.

And the farce that is topping up your leap card. I can't top up my card online and use the credit to get a Dublin Bus without taking a detour by a shop, luas stop or train station. In Melbourne you can top up your card by paying the driver cash and the minimum top up is a dollar.

It's almost as if they don't want your money