We should support whistleblowing doctor!

steddyeddy

Whistle blower and excellent emergency medical doctor (by all accounts) has been involved in exposing the quality or lack of patient care in Tallaght hospital. He describes 90 year old patients being left left on trolleys for 24 hours and even a 101 year old patient who spent a night on a trolley. We should be thanking this guy for exposing the faults in our health care system. Doctors in this country, especially junior doctors get treated like crap for years on end for relatively little money. Doctors are also working unworkable hours in extremely high stress jobs. Barely a year goes by that we don't hear about the horrible working conditions doctors have to face.

For more than six years, emergency medicine doctor James Gray has been a thorn in the side of the management of Tallaght Hospital.
Gray’s repeated and outspoken criticisms of the way patients are treated in his overcrowded emergency department have made Tallaght a byword for the problems of the Irish health system and its inability to raise its game.
It’s a fair guess that the knives have been sharpened for the fearless doctor for some time, but it was only this week that hospital management got the opportunity to put a stop to his gallop. The latest exemplar for what Gray refers to as the “torture” of patients in overcrowded emergency departments – a 91-year-old man who spent more than 24 hours on a trolley – was less than pleased to see his case highlighted in the media.

Actively advised by its public relations consultants Drury Communications (paid for by the taxpayer), the hospital seized its opportunity by announcing an inquiry into the leaking of the patient’s details. A story about the mistreatment of older people and the shambles in the health system was turned, in the blink of a spin-doctor’s eye, into an interrogation of the whistleblower.
Never mind that Gray copied his memo about the case to numerous parties, including Minister for Health Leo Varadkar, so anyone could have leaked the details. Or that his email contained next to no personal details about the patient, other than the fact his wife also languished on a trolley in the hospital.
Taoiseach Enda Kenny could see the wrong involved in allowing a 91-year-old to languish so long in a corridor, but the hospital’s main concern was to staunch the flow of negative coverage. Once again, a health-service dispute pitted managers with a control agenda against doctors fighting for patients’ rights.
Gray trained at Trinity College, Dublin and cut his medical teeth in the UK before returning to Ireland and a post in Tallaght in 2006. He lectures in Trinity, serves as an examiner for the College of Emergency Medicine in London and works as an expert witness, in addition to his work at the emergency department.

Outspoken advocate

As whistleblowers go, Dr Gray is a modern form of the species, frequently resorting to social media to vent his anger at the failings of the health service. A favourite medium is Twitter, where he describes himself as an “outspoken advocate” and the father of two daughters, “so seriously outnumbered”. Earlier this year, while sitting at home watching the news, he sent Varadkar a tweet asking whether it was possible his Cabinet colleague, Minister for Finance Michael Noonan, who was on film attending an EU meeting, had an eye problem.
As it happened, Noonan had already noticed the bulging of his eye and made an appointment with a specialist. He was operated on and made a full recovery.

Landmark investigation

Gray was partly responsible for triggering the landmark investigation by the Health Information and Quality Authority into Tallaght hospital. Giving evidence in 2011 at the inquest of a Dublin man who died at the hospital while on a trolley, he criticised the “appallingly poor standards of sanitation” in his department due to overcrowding; the coroner remarked that Tallaght sounded like “a dangerous place”. That report was critical of standards and governance at Tallaght and other emergency departments, prompting major reforms in the way the hospital was run. The board was pared down and a new management team put in place.
Tallaght has made strides since that low point and its trolley figures are far from the worst. But unlike other hospitals, Tallaght has emergency department staff who actively complain when things go wrong. Earlier this year, the hospital was again in the news when a 101-year-old patient spent a night on a trolley, the publicity again arising from Gray’s complaints to management.
He has been inundated by expressions of support from colleagues and others since he ended up in the spotlight this week. Despite being on the receiving end of an internal inquiry, he shows no signs of going quiet.
Perhaps the best way to understand his frustration can be gauged from this hopeful line from a letter he and colleagues penned to The Irish Times three years ago: “We welcome the current Minister’s [James Reilly’s] public promise to end emergency department overcrowding nationwide by year’s end 2012.”

NachoBusiness

Nobody cares for too long about these things.

When Brendan Gleeson raised similar issues on TLLS everyone said it would lead to mass support but soon it was forgotten about.

In 2012 this doctor raised issues about Ryanair's lack of medical suppplies on short-haul flights and again it was the talk of the airwaves for 10 mins and zilch was done in response. The following year this happened and earlier this year this incident occurred.

Not saying any of these people would have lived if better medical equipment was on board short-hail flights, but they might have and that was the doctor's point at the time. Whistle blowers should be listened to for sure but it's really down to the public to support them as otherwise people very quickly move on.

Wibbs

Fair play to him and others like him. I've seen how conditions can be in casualty depts for myself and it's a situation in need of as much whistle blowing as possible. Goes triple for elderly patients I've found. They tend to be quieter for a start so the squeaky wheel tends to get the oil.

Eugene Norman

There was a thread here blaming the doctors and nurses for the Tipperary assault issue just a while back.

It's management at the hospital and higher HSE level who should be held to account. What else do they have to do but manage. Instead of acting on information that trolleys are being used, instead of working out ways to solve this its attack the whistle blowers.

steddyeddy

Eugene Norman wrote: »

There was a thread here blaming the doctors and nurses for the Tipperary assault issue just a while back.

It's management at the hospital and higher HSE level who should be held to account. What else do they have to do but manage. Instead of acting on information that trolleys are being used, instead of working out ways to solve this its attack the whistle blowers.

This sums up the HSE for me:

There was fury during the summer after it emerged that the children and spouses of senior HSE staff were taken on, mostly in Cork and Limerick, to help speed up the payment of the Back to School Clothing and Footwear Allowance, which is provided by the HSE.
It led to former HSE chief Brendan Drumm ordering an internal inquiry to find out if normal recruitment codes had been breached.
The review was set up to probe the hiring of the summer staff for posts worth around €23,000-€29,000 a year to work as community welfare officers and clerical officers in the south and mid-west regions.
The recruitment bypassed many of the existing formalities and drew from a list of CVs on file, several of which were unsolicited and belonged to relatives of HSE staff.
The summer workers were needed because applications for the allowance had soared during the economic crisis and there was considerable paperwork to be done.
At least seven of the jobs -- four in Co Cork and three in Co Limerick -- were filled by spouses and children of existing HSE staff.
None of the 13 temporary jobs as grade three clerical officers in the HSE South region were advertised, and the posts in Limerick were only advertised to existing staff.
Guidelines
The Irish Independent understands that the inquiry report has now been sent to the Commission for Public Service Appointments, which is to draw up new guidelines.
The report found that the human resources managers who hired the workers used the existing code of practice in the public service, which allows for short cuts to be taken in the hiring of staff for critical, unplanned and short-term service needs.
This code, which allows managers to examine existing CVs on file and recruit without advertising, should only be called in when critical staff such as doctors or nurses are needed.
The inquiry team said it should not have been used to recruit managerial, administrative or clerical staff.
The fault appeared to be one of interpretation of the code rather than a breach.
It has also outlawed the practice of local regional health offices holding on to "unsolicited" CVs from job applicants who send in their documentation even though no immediate job is available.
The managers argued that they were under pressure to ensure that no backlog of applications from needy parents arose between June and October, when the back to school allowance is sent out.
They said they already had a bank of CVs on file and recruited from their ranks in the interest of time and efficiency.
However, the inquiry team said this must not be repeated and a directive has now been sent to all regional health offices saying proper procedures must be followed in future.
The inquiry said the HSE managers were not guilty of nepotism, adding all candidates had been interviewed.
If nepotism was involved, it would have had to include collusion from recruitment officers and interview boards, the report said.
Irish Independent

Un-fireable prats who hire their own family members because no one else would take them.

mzungu

Wibbs wrote: »

Fair play to him and others like him. I've seen how conditions can be in casualty depts for myself and it's a situation in need of as much whistle blowing as possible. Goes triple for elderly patients I've found. They tend to be quieter for a start so the squeaky wheel tends to get the oil.

The conditions of casualty departments, people on trolleys etc. was happening back in the cash plenty celtic tiger days. I think the public have gotten used to HSE mismanagement and incompetence over the years that there is a sense of apathy ingrained around the whole thing now. As a previous poster was saying, this stuff makes for one or two days of big headlines and Liveline calls and then is forgotten about. It seems to be customary in Ireland that we wait until something really awful happens and then moves are made to rectify it. If having people on trolleys for 29 hours and elderly patients being sexually assaulted does not spring relevant authorities into action, then you can be sure this is not an issue that will be tackled in any meaningful way anytime soon.

steddyeddy

mzungu wrote: »

The conditions of casualty departments, people on trolleys etc. was happening back in the cash plenty celtic tiger days. I think the public have gotten used to HSE mismanagement and incompetence over the years that there is a sense of apathy ingrained around the whole thing now. As a previous poster was saying, this stuff makes for one or two days of big headlines and Liveline calls and then is forgotten about. It seems to be customary in Ireland that we wait until something really awful happens and then moves are made to rectify it. If having people on trolleys for 29 hours and elderly patients being sexually assaulted does not spring relevant authorities into action, then you can be sure this is not an issue that will be tackled in any meaningful way anytime soon.

Hapana mzungu!!

Yea you're dead right though. The problem is that our doctors never get the chance to forget it. They're fighting a battle against incompetent management day in and day out. These aren't one off instance but happen regularly.

Son Of A Vidic

I have to laugh at this term - whistleblower, the implication being such an individual is doing something wrong or immoral (I'm not directing that at you OP). Let's call such individuals what they really are - a truth speaker. The Doctor is pulling back the curtain and speaking the truth about what's really going on. In doing so he is doing all of us, especially us taxpayer who fund the system, a great service. As a Medical person myself, I am all to acutely aware of what goes on in the HSE. I've been uniquely positioning having worked in several clinical front line environments and then having worked as a medical manager for a private healthcare company, that had the HSE as its main client. So I have a very in-depth knowledge RE:the level of waste and managerial incompetence going on in the HSE.

I have written to three Ministers Of Heath outlining this shocking level of waste and management inefficiencies. I outlined several product sample areas, where procurement managers were vastly overspending on products. When cheaper and better quality alternatives were available on the market. Bribes and backhanders are alive and doing very well in the healthcare market and companies have become very clever in how they disguise it. Meanwhile front line services are starved of resources & staff and they continue to take the brunt of the incompetent/corrupt scumbags operating further up the chain.

I know of one HSE manager who was so incompetent, even the crooks above her had to act. They couldn't sack her because she was An Officer of The Board. So they pushed her sideways and created a position for her. Oh and her salary went from €65K to €120, not bad going for a useless gobshyte. Meanwhile the area she reigned over, remained short of newly qualified nurses & junior doctors. But that's the HSE for you and that's how they do things. Next time you're stuck in A&E or are unhappy with the service, spare a though for the doctors & nurses who have to live, work and deal with it every single day. It is their dedication and sense of duty which keeps the ship running.

Meanwhile, never mind a reply, I have yet to receive even an acknowledgement from any of those Ministers of Heath that I wrote to. In 2004 when I worked in St. James, a senior hospital manager had the gall to go on RTE and deny that the A&E department was closed due to overcrowding. Yet that very day, myself and some colleagues had to take a detour around the department because the corridors were wedged with patients sitting on the floor waiting for treatment. Thankfully a member of staff took several photos of the overcrowding which made the Evening Herald the next day. That was 11 years ago, the liar who went onto RTE and denied their was a problem is now a senior clown in the HSE. That's the calibre of the idiots you have running the show. So to answer your question OP, of course people should support a truth speaker. But this being Ireland, a supportive grumble is about all he'll get for his trouble.

My name is URL

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I have to laugh at this term - whistleblower, the implication being such an individual is doing something wrong or immoral

The term was coined specifically to avoid that implication. Before, such people were called informers and snitches etc

Ghost Buster

steddyeddy wrote: »

This sums up the HSE for me:

My wife is a low/middle grade admin worker in the HSE and sees things in her day to day life which absolutely infuriates her and all coming from upper management.
Im trying to convince her to make it public but the consequences for her would be hellish.

One eyed Jack

I've never been a fan of "whistleblowers" myself (I've never liked that term, but it is what it is). I understand why they do it and all, to highlight injustices and incompetency within a system, but I've just never been a fan of someone who would do something like that and I couldn't support their efforts because I could never be sure with them when they might turn on me and put my head on the chopping block.

Tasden

I think it was said on the radio that one of the patients involved and their family weren't all that happy about the details being made public. Maybe I'm wrong, I was only half listening at the time.

opiniated

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I have to laugh at this term - whistleblower, the implication being such an individual is doing something wrong or immoral (I'm not directing that at you OP). Let's call such individuals what they really are - a truth speaker. The Doctor is pulling back the curtain and speaking the truth about what's really going on. In doing so he is doing all of us, especially us taxpayer who fund the system, a great service. As a Medical person myself, I am all to acutely aware of what goes on in the HSE. I've been uniquely positioning having worked in several clinical front line environments and then having worked as a medical manager for a private healthcare company, that had the HSE as its main client. So I have a very in-depth knowledge RE:the level of waste and managerial incompetence going on in the HSE.

I have written to three Ministers Of Heath outlining this shocking level of waste and management inefficiencies. I outlined several product sample areas, where procurement managers were vastly overspending on products. When cheaper and better quality alternatives were available on the market. Bribes and backhanders are alive and doing very well in the healthcare market and companies have become very clever in how they disguise it. Meanwhile front line services are starved of resources & staff and they continue to take the brunt of the incompetent/corrupt scumbags operating further up the chain.

I know of one HSE manager who was so incompetent, even the crooks above her had to act. They couldn't sack her because she was An Officer of The Board. So they pushed her sideways and created a position for her. Oh and her salary went from €65K to €120, not bad going for a useless gobshyte. Meanwhile the area she reigned over, remained short of newly qualified nurses & junior doctors. But that's the HSE for you and that's how they do things. Next time you're stuck in A&E or are unhappy with the service, spare a though for the doctors & nurses who have to live, work and deal with it every single day. It is their dedication and sense of duty which keeps the ship running.

Meanwhile, never mind a reply, I have yet to receive even an acknowledgement from any of those Ministers of Heath that I wrote to. In 2004 when I worked in St. James, a senior hospital manager had the gall to go on RTE and deny that the A&E department was closed due to overcrowding. Yet that very day, myself and some colleagues had to take a detour around the department because the corridors were wedged with patients sitting on the floor waiting for treatment. Thankfully a member of staff took several photos of the overcrowding which made the Evening Herald the next day. That was 11 years ago, the liar who went onto RTE and denied their was a problem is now a senior clown in the HSE. That's the calibre of the idiots you have running the show. So to answer your question OP, of course people should support a truth speaker. But this being Ireland, a supportive grumble is about all he'll get for his trouble.

That post makes for very sad reading, because it is not at all surprising to someone who has reason to be around hospitals regularly.

My local hospital is chronically short-staffed, so much so that it also has a problem both recruiting, and retaining, staff.

Doctors are recruited, quite simply can't take the pressure, and move on.
I've spoken to a Consultant on his last day and he was positively beaming from ear to ear at the thought of working in what he described as "someplace sane!"

Yet management at that same hospital have publicly denied being underfunded, despite that Hospital having the lowest level of funding per patient in the Country, and despite a rather damning HIQA report that roundly criticised out of date equipment, and parts of the building being in urgent need of renovation to enable adequate hygiene practices to be maintained, as well as a shortage of basic cleaning supplies.

HSE management seem to have a routine response to problems encountered by their staff.... They invariably deny that any problems exist!
Any staff that protest are invariably removed from their posts, one way or another.

At the end of the day, nothing is going to change, unless it happens at a political level, and I can't see that happening anytime soon, unfortunately.
Even if people protest to TDs who are on the campaign trail in the upcoming election, we are likely to hear promises about how their party will change the system - until it's all quietly brushed under the carpet after the election - again!!

I don't know what the answer is, short of recruiting some NEW senior managers, with authority to go round individual hospitals (unannounced), and access all files on demand, and demand change where problems are found. Needless to say, said managers would also need authority to dismiss non-performing managers.
I doubt if it will ever happen, though.

Tasden wrote: »

I think it was said on the radio that one of the patients involved and their family weren't all that happy about the details being made public. Maybe I'm wrong, I was only half listening at the time.

As far as I understand it, the patient wasn't named, nor was his medical condition described. Accordingly, I can't see why he has any grounds for complaint, in all honesty.

Tasden

opiniated wrote: »

As far as I understand it, the patient wasn't named, nor was his medical condition described. Accordingly, I can't see why he has any grounds for complaint, in all honesty.

Afaik it wasn't but from what i heard they're not happy, whether he has grounds for complaint or not.

One eyed Jack

opiniated wrote: »

As far as I understand it, the patient wasn't named, nor was his medical condition described. Accordingly, I can't see why he has any grounds for complaint, in all honesty.

There were enough details released to the public to identify the man. That's an invasion of his privacy and it highlights incompetence in the person doing the whistleblowing that they hadn't considered the people they put at risk in order to further their own agenda.

Eugene Norman

Tasden wrote: »

I think it was said on the radio that one of the patients involved and their family weren't all that happy about the details being made public. Maybe I'm wrong, I was only half listening at the time.

The only people who could work anything out would know them.

That's the kind of propaganda that all whistle blowers deal with, however.

opiniated

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There were enough details released to the public to identify the man. That's an invasion of his privacy and it highlights incompetence in the person doing the whistleblowing that they hadn't considered the people they put at risk in order to further their own agenda.

Whose agenda? The doctor who is fighting for a better service for his patients?

That man isn't incompetent, imo.
He's a modern day hero.

One eyed Jack

opiniated wrote: »

Whose agenda? The doctor who is fighting for a better service for his patients?

The doctor who neglects to consider the consequences of his actions for other people.

That man isn't incompetent, imo.
He's a modern day hero.

I strongly disagree with you there, on both counts. He's about as competent and a modern day hero as Bradley/Chelsea Manning, that is to say - not a whole lot.

pickarooney

steddyeddy wrote: »

This sums up the HSE for me:




Un-fireable prats who hire their own family members because no one else would take them.

It seems bizarre to me that they can't hire people they've already interviewed or keep CVs sent on spec. What's the logic behind that?

What percentage of the jobs went to family members of existing staff?

Superhorse

Whistleblowers are destroyed and cast out by Irish society in general. No doubt this doctor is one of the good guys but he will be destroyed for going to bat against the HSE.

opiniated

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The doctor who neglects to consider the consequences of his actions for other people.





I strongly disagree with you there, on both counts. He's about as competent and a modern day hero as Bradley/Chelsea Manning, that is to say - not a whole lot.

And what negative consequences did the elderly gentleman suffer?

I have no idea who he is - neither does anyone who didn't hear the story on the local grapevine. So, what consequences are we discussing?
The consequences to management at the hospital? The HSE? The Government?

Exactly what consequences are we discussing, that would lead you to criticise the Doctor so severely?

opiniated

Superhorse wrote: »

Whistleblowers are destroyed and cast out by Irish society in general. No doubt this doctor is one of the good guys but he will be destroyed for going to bat against the HSE.

Unfortunately, he wouldn't be the first, nor probably the last, either!

It's so wrong, though!

Son Of A Vidic

My name is URL wrote: »

The term was coined specifically to avoid that implication. Before, such people were called informers and snitches etc

And in that it has failed miserably, the expression is ridiculous and its use by the media is very often done in a negative context. As if it is somehow wrong, for an individual to reveal information that is vital to the public interest.

steddyeddy

Ghost Buster wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

This sums up the HSE for me:

My wife is a low/middle grade admin worker in the HSE and sees things in her day to day life which absolutely infuriates her and all coming from upper management.
Im trying to convince her to make it public but the consequences for her would be hellish.

The sad thing is a lot of people in this country can't see anything wrong with it. Nothing at all. "Ah sure who would you know better than your own family ect".

One eyed Jack

opiniated wrote: »

And what negative consequences did the elderly gentleman suffer?

I have no idea who he is - neither does anyone who didn't hear the story on the local grapevine. So, what consequences are we discussing?
The consequences to management at the hospital? The HSE? The Government?

Exactly what consequences are we discussing, that would lead you to criticise the Doctor so severely?

The man obviously didn't want to be involved in the doctors campaign against the hospital. If I am a patient in a hospital, I don't wish to be used in any whistleblowing campaign. If I have an issue with my treatment by the hospital staff, I can go through procedures myself. The man wasn't even asked by the doctor for his permission to use his case.

If you're in a position of trust where you have access to sensitive information like that, then IMO it's completely incompetent and irresponsible to release that information to the general public. I would be calling for the doctors resignation if he wasn't fired as whistleblowers by their very nature cannot be trusted, so it's only prudent to deny them access to positions where they cannot be trusted to do the job they're being hired to do.

No employer should have to tolerate staff that are trying to stab them in the back.

steddyeddy

opiniated wrote: »

That post makes for very sad reading, because it is not at all surprising to someone who has reason to be around hospitals regularly.

My local hospital is chronically short-staffed, so much so that it also has a problem both recruiting, and retaining, staff.

Doctors are recruited, quite simply can't take the pressure, and move on.
I've spoken to a Consultant on his last day and he was positively beaming from ear to ear at the thought of working in what he described as "someplace sane!"

Yet management at that same hospital have publicly denied being underfunded, despite that Hospital having the lowest level of funding per patient in the Country, and despite a rather damning HIQA report that roundly criticised out of date equipment, and parts of the building being in urgent need of renovation to enable adequate hygiene practices to be maintained, as well as a shortage of basic cleaning supplies.

HSE management seem to have a routine response to problems encountered by their staff.... They invariably deny that any problems exist!
Any staff that protest are invariably removed from their posts, one way or another.

At the end of the day, nothing is going to change, unless it happens at a political level, and I can't see that happening anytime soon, unfortunately.
Even if people protest to TDs who are on the campaign trail in the upcoming election, we are likely to hear promises about how their party will change the system - until it's all quietly brushed under the carpet after the election - again!!

I don't know what the answer is, short of recruiting some NEW senior managers, with authority to go round individual hospitals (unannounced), and access all files on demand, and demand change where problems are found. Needless to say, said managers would also need authority to dismiss non-performing managers.
I doubt if it will ever happen, though.





As far as I understand it, the patient wasn't named, nor was his medical condition described. Accordingly, I can't see why he has any grounds for complaint, in all honesty.

I would love if this happened. I can't see it happening though. Does the minister have any real power over the HSE?

Tasden

I wouldn't have an issue with the whistle blowing itself. I think his intentions were noble, he just went about it the wrong way by dragging an innocent patient into it who had already been through enough as it is.

steddyeddy

pickarooney wrote: »

It seems bizarre to me that they can't hire people they've already interviewed or keep CVs sent on spec. What's the logic behind that?

None but the issue relates to nepotism which is a separate issue.

What percentage of the jobs went to family members of existing staff?

My friend's a consultant in the Mater. He reports the same thing. Too high a percentage.

Eugene Norman

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The man obviously didn't want to be involved in the doctors campaign against the hospital. If I am a patient in a hospital, I don't wish to be used in any whistleblowing campaign. If I have an issue with my treatment by the hospital staff, I can go through procedures myself. The man wasn't even asked by the doctor for his permission to use his case.

If you're in a position of trust where you have access to sensitive information like that, then IMO it's completely incompetent and irresponsible to release that information to the general public. I would be calling for the doctors resignation if he wasn't fired as whistleblowers by their very nature cannot be trusted, so it's only prudent to deny them access to positions where they cannot be trusted to do the job they're being hired to do.

The man hasn't been named. Nobody knows who he is. The doctor mentioned in the OP listed a number of cases.

You, like a lot of people who worry about their own incompetence or corruption being found out ( as you admit) are quite happy for systemic corruption or incompetence to continue as long as you are all right Jack.

No employer should have to tolerate staff that are trying to stab them in the back.

Whistle blowers are essential. In fact some countries have laws protecting them. Including Ireland.

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=1e82a58d-943f-4a7b-a766-1cb5235af4ca

One eyed Jack

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The man hasn't been named. Nobody knows who he is. The doctor mentioned in the OP listed a number of cases.

You, like a lot of people who worry about their own incompetence or corruption being found out ( as you admit) are quite happy for systemic corruption or incompetence to continue as long as you are all right Jack.

Odd sort of a misinterpretation and misrepresentation of my post, and demonstrates exactly why I detest whistleblowers, because they twist and leak confidential information out of context to the general public.

I never mentioned anything about myself being incompetent or corrupt. I said that the likes of a whistleblower could have my head on the chopping block (by releasing confidential information out of context to the general public).

If there is an issue within the system, work within the system to fix it, rather than airing grievances in public.

Whistle blowers are essential. In fact some countries have laws protecting them. Including Ireland.

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=1e82a58d-943f-4a7b-a766-1cb5235af4ca

I don't agree that they are essential. I'd have much more respect for someone whom I didn't have to worry about stabbing me in the back at the first opportunity. I value loyalty and confidentiality over all else every day of the week.

opiniated

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The man obviously didn't want to be involved in the doctors campaign against the hospital. If I am a patient in a hospital, I don't wish to be used in any whistleblowing campaign. If I have an issue with my treatment by the hospital staff, I can go through procedures myself. The man wasn't even asked by the doctor for his permission to use his case.

If you're in a position of trust where you have access to sensitive information like that, then IMO it's completely incompetent and irresponsible to release that information to the general public. I would be calling for the doctors resignation if he wasn't fired as whistleblowers by their very nature cannot be trusted, so it's only prudent to deny them access to positions where they cannot be trusted to do the job they're being hired to do.

No employer should have to tolerate staff that are trying to stab them in the back.

It's a good thing that "the man" wasn't used, then.
A man, was what was quoted.
Far from being incompetent, or irresponsible, I would argue that a doctors first responsibility is to his patients (note: not one patient, but patients).
His secondary duty is to provide the best possible service to the public - who, after all, pay his wages. The HSE merely manages/mismanages the funds that are provided by Joe Public.

Hence, it was entirely responsible, and competent, for the doctor in question to release the information to the public, and far from "stabbing his employer in the back" (dramatisation, much?) - he correctly identified where his responsibilities lay, and did his best to honour them.

Had he named the patient in question, or divulged his medical history, then he would have acted improperly. Since he didn't, he has absolutely no case to answer, and your empty protests are just that - empty, and without substance.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I would love if this happened. I can't see it happening though. Does the minister have any real power over the HSE?

I doubt it. The civil service in general appear to be untouchable in this Country. Note - I am not criticising the entire civil service, but I suspect there are few people working in the civil service who don't know at least one person who is totally unsuitable for the work they (allegedly) do.

imitation

There was the statistic going around previously that the health system is down 5000 nurses since the moratorium began. We are also heading into the winter season which is a higher demand for hospitals.

Its obvious to anybody what these facts would mean, but unfortunately Ireland runs on a reactionary system. Sensible management would dicate you carefully manage your money in the good times so you lesson the blow in the bad times. Instead we get deep cuts when its bad, and mad splurges when its good.

Now there is some kind of recovery I guess there will be HSE recruiters all over Indonesia while the natives who studied here will have stay on in their medical jobs abroad..

NachoBusiness

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Odd sort of a misinterpretation and misrepresentation of my post, and demonstrates exactly why I detest whistleblowers, because they twist and leak confidential information out of context to the general public.

Since when has out of context whistleblowing done harm?

Anyone that has done what you suggest, would lose credibility, and fast.

I never mentioned anything about myself being incompetent or corrupt. I said that the likes of a whistleblower could have my head on the chopping block..

So what. Saying you don't like whistleblowers because one day they might blow the whistle on you is as daft as it gets.

If there is an issue within the system, work within the system to fix it, rather than airing grievances in public.

LMAO. Now why didn't Frank Serpico think of that.

I value loyalty and confidentiality over all else every day of the week.

Even if it means tolerating corruption??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvCTnA-4d9A

One eyed Jack

opiniated wrote: »

It's a good thing that "the man" wasn't used, then.
A man, was what was quoted.
Far from being incompetent, or irresponsible, I would argue that a doctors first responsibility is to his patients (note: not one patient, but patients).
His secondary duty is to provide the best possible service to the public - who, after all, pay his wages. The HSE merely manages/mismanages the funds that are provided by Joe Public.

Hence, it was entirely responsible, and competent, for the doctor in question to release the information to the public, and far from "stabbing his employer in the back" (dramatisation, much?) - he correctly identified where his responsibilities lay, and did his best to honour them.

Had he named the patient in question, or divulged his medical history, then he would have acted improperly. Since he didn't, he has absolutely no case to answer, and your empty protests are just that - empty, and without substance.

A complaint was made by a patient about the doctor publicising his case without his prior knowledge or permission. That patient is now publicly identifiable, against their will. You may not wish to acknowledge that a patient should never have been put in that position, but fortunately the doctors employers disagree with you as they have grievance procedures in place for patients and patient advocacy groups already exist for patients who want to make a complaint against the hospital. The last thing anyone wants in their organisation is someone going all gung-ho and making a mess of things as the doctor has done in this case.

Put yourself in that patients shoes for a minute.

I doubt it. The civil service in general appear to be untouchable in this Country. Note - I am not criticising the entire civil service, but I suspect there are few people working in the civil service who don't know at least one person who is totally unsuitable for the work they (allegedly) do.

Dramatisation much?

opiniated

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A complaint was made by a patient about the doctor publicising his case without his prior knowledge or permission. That patient is now publicly identifiable, against their will. You may not wish to acknowledge that a patient should never have been put in that position, but fortunately the doctors employers disagree with you as they have grievance procedures in place for patients and patient advocacy groups already exist for patients who want to make a complaint against the hospital. The last thing anyone wants in their organisation is someone going all gung-ho and making a mess of things as the doctor has done in this case.

Put yourself in that patients shoes for a minute.

That patient is not now publicly identifiable.
I can't identify him. I challenge you to identify him.

I can quite easily put myself in that patients position. I'd be delighted if my doctor cared enough to fight for better services. The last one who tried, at my local hospital, was moved sideways to a position that he did not specialise in, then his department was starved of funds, until he resigned in disgust.

As to the HSE being the doctors employers, let me ask you - who employs the HSE?

opiniated

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Even if it means tolerating corruption??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvCTnA-4d9A

One eyed Jack claims to value loyalty and confidentiality above all else.
Apparently corruption or incompetence aren't at the top of his list of priorities.

Tasden

opiniated wrote: »

I can quite easily put myself in that patients position. I'd be delighted if my doctor cared enough to fight for better services. The last one who tried, at my local hospital, was moved sideways to a position that he did not specialise in, then his department was starved of funds, until he resigned in disgust.

But you're not him and hes not delighted.

steddyeddy

opiniated wrote: »

It's a good thing that "the man" wasn't used, then.
A man, was what was quoted.
Far from being incompetent, or irresponsible, I would argue that a doctors first responsibility is to his patients (note: not one patient, but patients).
His secondary duty is to provide the best possible service to the public - who, after all, pay his wages. The HSE merely manages/mismanages the funds that are provided by Joe Public.

Hence, it was entirely responsible, and competent, for the doctor in question to release the information to the public, and far from "stabbing his employer in the back" (dramatisation, much?) - he correctly identified where his responsibilities lay, and did his best to honour them.

Had he named the patient in question, or divulged his medical history, then he would have acted improperly. Since he didn't, he has absolutely no case to answer, and your empty protests are just that - empty, and without substance.





I doubt it. The civil service in general appear to be untouchable in this Country. Note - I am not criticising the entire civil service, but I suspect there are few people working in the civil service who don't know at least one person who is totally unsuitable for the work they (allegedly) do.

I don't live in Ireland anymore but this is absolutely sickening. I was asking my colleagues in England is it the same over here I.E un-sackable incompetent employees and nepotism rife. They said it really isn't. We deserve better.

steddyeddy

Tasden wrote: »

But you're not him and hes not delighted.

Bad move by the doctor but it's not about him alone. It's about the doctors who work close to 80 hour weeks and the the effect on patients. The real crime here is how doctors and by extension patients are being treated by incompetent HSE staff.

Tasden

steddyeddy wrote: »

Bad move by the doctor but it's not about him alone. It's about the doctors who work close to 80 hour weeks and the the effect on patients. The real crime here is how doctors and by extension patients are being treated by incompetent HSE staff.

For sure. And I fully support what he was trying to do. It may very well be for the greater good but it doesn't diminish the negative impact it's had on the man. I'm not saying he shouldn't have done what he did, I just don't agree with very specific details of his experience being made public without his consent.

asherbassad

steddyeddy wrote: »

Whistle blower and excellent emergency medical doctor (by all accounts) has been involved in exposing the quality or lack of patient care in Tallaght hospital. He describes 90 year old patients being left left on trolleys for 24 hours and even a 101 year old patient who spent a night on a trolley. We should be thanking this guy for exposing the faults in our health care system. Doctors in this country, especially junior doctors get treated like crap for years on end for relatively little money. Doctors are also working unworkable hours in extremely high stress jobs. Barely a year goes by that we don't hear about the horrible working conditions doctors have to face.

Should be hung for being unpatriotic.

asherbassad

steddyeddy wrote: »

Bad move by the doctor but it's not about him alone. It's about the doctors who work close to 80 hour weeks and the the effect on patients. The real crime here is how doctors and by extension patients are being treated by incompetent HSE staff.

How come Cuban and Iranian doctors are the most amazing in the world? Their countries are "sh1tholes" after all, are they not?

What is it about Iraqi women that make them some of the worlds best surgeons?

Their crappy local HSE?

Eugene Norman

Tasden wrote: »

For sure. And I fully support what he was trying to do. It may very well be for the greater good but it doesn't diminish the negative impact it's had on the man. I'm not saying he shouldn't have done what he did, I just don't agree with very specific details of his experience being made public without his consent.

The "negative impact" is bullrap spin. Rather than apologise for leaving a 91 year old on the table the propagandists have turned the table. I can't even see what this man would be upset for.

Canis Lupus

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Nobody cares for too long about these things.

When Brendan Gleeson raised similar issues on TLLS everyone said it would lead to mass support but soon it was forgotten about.

In 2012 this doctor raised issues about Ryanair's lack of medical suppplies on short-haul flights and again it was the talk of the airwaves for 10 mins and zilch was done in response. The following year this happened and earlier this year this incident occurred.

Not saying any of these people would have lived if better medical equipment was on board short-hail flights, but they might have and that was the doctor's point at the time. Whistle blowers should be listened to for sure but it's really down to the public to support them as otherwise people very quickly move on.

I'm still focused on Kony.

maneno

Umenichekesha

steddyeddy wrote: »

Hapana mzungu!!

Yea you're dead right though. The problem is that our doctors never get the chance to forget it. They're fighting a battle against incompetent management day in and day out. These aren't one off instance but happen regularly.

foggy_lad

It says a lot about our Minister for health that he couldn't be bothered visiting this elderly man to apologise in person for his treatment but decided to ring the man, this is where the whole idea of the man being upset about the coverage comes from! Leo Vradkar says that the man was upset about the media coverage of his case but I put it to Leo that the man was more upset about being left out in the hallway - for all the world to see and hear when doctors and nurses were talking to him and treating him - than he ever was about the doctor highlighting his case without actually naming him or his wife.


As for the HSE response, the best we can expect is an inquiry and the hiring of a dozen more managers and civil servants to better cover up this and future scandals!

Seesee

Here's the latest!
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/tallaght-hospital-boss-threatens-legal-action-over-a-e-inquiry-1.2435301

What the hell?! This guy should be sacked. Of course the hospital should be put under pressure. Poor management and now they threaten to sue!

Hammer89

Is this about a doctor who moonlights as a referee?