Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Does this make sense?

Options
1246

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Absolam wrote: »
    Crucifixion is a relatively mild torture? I'd heard it was a doddle but.....

    Did you now? Likely you heard wrong. I imagine it is quite awful. Do not make the linguistic error of jumping from "relatively mild" to "mild". The key word being "relatively". Relative to some of the tortures our species has invented to visit upon other members of our species, the torture described in the story of Jesus is very much RELATIVELY mild.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    He doesn't display any greater faith or certitude, or any greater miracle-working agency, than many other characters in scripture

    If I was going around achieving "faith healing, exorcisms, resurrection of the dead and control over nature" I am certainly going to start going around thinking I am something more than human.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Plus he displays distinctly undivine human weaknesses

    Not relevant to what I am saying at all. Even if I was certain of an after life of bliss and dominion, I would still have human responses to my impending discomforts. Biology would demand little else. I still would not presume to call my transition from one life to the next a "sacrifice" of my life, or a "death" however.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Besides, as I've pointed out already, for a critique of Christian beliefs to be meaningful, it has to be a critique of what Christians actually believe

    Yea cause they are one ubiquitous group who only believe one thing. That is why there is over 33000 branches and sects and offshoots of it. Perhaps you mistake, as has been done on this forum many times in the past, what individual doctrines suggest groups should believe, and what they actually do. Like Transubstantiation for a useful example to highlight my point here.... as a good example of this error on the forum before. Clearly Catholic Doctrines say one thing. What Catholics on the ground believe however can be quite different.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Perhaps so, but that's a different point from the one the OP raises.

    Lucky then I was not replying to the OP, but something _you_ said.


  • Options
    #93
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,087 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    If I was going around achieving "faith healing, exorcisms, resurrection of the dead and control over nature" I am certainly going to start going around thinking I am something more than human.
    Well, but that might partly be because your atheism precludes you from thinking that there might be a God who is working through you. We can't assume that a theist would come the same conclusions as you would.

    The question of what you would believe in this circumstance isn't strictly relevant. The question is whether Jesus knew, or believed, that he was the Incarnation of God. If he didn't, or mightn't have, then arguments which presume that he must have found himself to be omniscient and omnipotent don't stand up.
    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Yea cause they are one ubiquitous group who only believe one thing. That is why there is over 33000 branches and sects and offshoots of it. Perhaps you mistake, as has been done on this forum many times in the past, what individual doctrines suggest groups should believe, and what they actually do. Like Transubstantiation for a useful example to highlight my point here.... as a good example of this error on the forum before. Clearly Catholic Doctrines say one thing. What Catholics on the ground believe however can be quite different.
    On that view, an argument which presumes' Jesus omniscience and shows it to be inconsistent with his claims about dying and about viewing his death as a sacrifice doesn't achieve much. At most, it shows that those Christians who do believe that Jesus was omniscient might have a hard time justifying that belief, based on what it says in the scripture. Which is basically an argument entirely consistent with the orthodox Christian belief, which is that Jesus was not omniscient.

    Could there be Christians who think that Jesus was omnipotent and omniscient? Yes, there could. Are they wrong, by reference to their own sources of authority (like the scripture, church teaching)? Yes, and this argument shows why. But it doesn't, I think, do any more than that.
    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Lucky then I was not replying to the OP, but something _you_ said.
    I think you're referring here to what I said to Saipanne back in post 88? What I said there is that the scriptural accounts do not present Jesus as either omniscient or omnipotent. And I think what you're saying here tends rather to back me up. If he were omniscient and omnipotent, why would he say the things he is supposed to have about his death, sacrifice, etc? (As you say yourself, you wouldn't.) If his followers or those around him or who, after his death, commented on these events thought he was omniscient or omnipotent, how could they have said the things they are supposed to have said? The parsimonious explanation for all this is that he didn't consider himself to possess these attributes, his immediate followers didn't consider him to, and the likes of Paul, writing afterwards, didn't consider him to. And the parsimonious explanation for all that is that he didn't, in fact, have these characteristics.

    And I imagine you wouldn't quarrel with that last point. If Jesus existed at all, he was not omnipotent or omniscient.


  • Options
    #94
    Second Toughest in_the Freshers
    Site Banned Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Second Toughest in_the Freshers


    Didn't he say something about rebuilding a temple in three days?


  • Options
    #95
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,087 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yes, reportedly. If you take the scriptures as accurate reportage, then he seems to have prophesied his own resurrection. But prophesying that something will happen is not at all the same as knowing that it will happen, still less as knowing that it will happen because you are omniscient. The scriptures are full of prophets. Nobody thinks that this means they are omniscient or divine, and they certainly don't behave as if they thought so themselves.


  • Options
    #96
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Well, but that might partly be because your atheism precludes you from thinking that there might be a God who is working through you.

    You just made my point for me, thanks. That is basically exactly what I have been saying. The capability to perform those miracles is likely to offer one a level of certitude not available to others as to the existence of this god and after life. And proportionally the more certain this person is that there is an after life, the less meaningful becomes calling anything he did a "sacrifice". And certainly lines like "God gave us his only son", which I have heard often, become a frankly insulting mockery of anyone who actually has lost a child.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I think you're referring here to what I said to Saipanne

    I was referring specifically to the line "Find the whole thing a bit less than plausible? Very possibly.". I think calling it "less than plausible" does not go far enough. It is entirely unsubstantiated fantastical nonsense for which we have not a shred of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to support it. Certainly none from you.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Did you now? Likely you heard wrong. I imagine it is quite awful. Do not make the linguistic error of jumping from "relatively mild" to "mild". The key word being "relatively". Relative to some of the tortures our species has invented to visit upon other members of our species, the torture described in the story of Jesus is very much RELATIVELY mild.
    I did yes. Though I don't think I heard wrong... he said it quite clearly. As to how awful it is, I thankfully can only imagine. Given the prolonged and agonising death it involved, I suspect it's sufferers wouldn't be greatly comforted by the notion that it was "relatively mild" though.


  • Options
    #98
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Not a suspicion I share, expressed, or implied however. You appear to hitting reply to my posts but going off on wild tangents without replying to anything actually said in them. My only point was, and remains, that relative to the wealth of tortures our species has devised, what we read of in the Bible is quite mild. That says absolutely nothing about what it was, or would be, like to endure.


  • Options
    #99
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Perhaps it's a matter of perspective then. I think I can confidently say that were I subjected sequentially to every one of the the wealth of tortures our species has devised, no matter where placed in the order I think I would be unlikely to describe being crucified as quite mild. Or even relatively mild. Maybe it's just me though.


  • Options
    #100
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Then we are in agreement it seems given I never described it as "mild" either.


  • Options
    #101
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Then we are in agreement it seems given I never described it as "mild" either.
    We're certainly in agreement that you never described it as mild... that's true :D
    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    a death with relatively mild torture


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Good, because I never did. So if you have any other questions about my opinion on the matter, do feel free to ask.


  • Options
    #103
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    What doesn't make sense to me is athiests fascination with a God who all keep insisting doesn't exist and is in the same realm as the Flying Spaghetti Monster who also doesn't exist.

    If He doesn't exist,why can't you just ignore Him and get on with your lives or is it a case you all secretly believe in the possibility of His existence and keep trying very hard to quieten that little doubt in your heads as to His existence by your constant denials.


  • Options
    #104
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Matias Cold Valor wrote: »
    why can't you just ignore Him religion and get on with your lives

    Slight adjustment to above, but honestly, if you can't answer that by now, having read of how frustrating the lack of church/state separation is to the lives of a large number of Irish people, then I suggest that there may be some sort of comprehension problem.

    Besides, if the study of religion was left solely up to religious people, who would they answer to? Who would be equipped to call out the outrageous discrepancies between bible quotes, used willy nilly to illustrate the various "moral" standpoints that they have been bashing people with for centuries?


  • Options
    #105
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Matias Cold Valor wrote: »
    What doesn't make sense to me is athiests fascination with a God who all keep insisting doesn't exist and is in the same realm as the Flying Spaghetti Monster who also doesn't exist.

    If He doesn't exist,why can't you just ignore Him and get on with your lives or is it a case you all secretly believe in the possibility of His existence and keep trying very hard to quieten that little doubt in your heads as to His existence by your constant denials.

    You know well how to answer all of those points yourself.


  • Options
    #106
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Matias Cold Valor wrote: »
    What doesn't make sense to me is athiests fascination with a God who all keep insisting doesn't exist and is in the same realm as the Flying Spaghetti Monster who also doesn't exist.

    That has probably not got much to do with this thread, and it is actually something that has been brought up many times before on this forum, but I am happy to answer it. Actually another atheist discussed something similar along the lines of "Is atheism not a bit like not collecting stamps".

    But in general atheists do not have a fascination with "A god they insist does not exist", but they are concerned with the activities and impacts of people who do think there is one.

    That said however most atheists around here do not appear to be insisting no god exists, but that there is no reason to think one does. And I do not think there is any reason to believe that atheists are invested in there being no god either. They would happily acknowledge there is one should substantiation be offered. They are not atheists because they do not want there to be a god, but because there is no reason to think there is one.

    On threads like this however it can be useful to engage with genuinely interesting thought experiments that allow us to explore subjects related to truth and morality and so forth. And well known cultural memes, such as Biblical stories, can be useful ways to do that.
    Matias Cold Valor wrote: »
    If He doesn't exist,why can't you just ignore Him and get on with your lives

    I would genuinely like to myself. My real interests lie elsewhere. Science. Government. Children. Education. Human Rights. Sex. Art. Psychology. Medicine.

    These are the things I have genuine interest in in my life. Yet in every single one of those realms the believers in god show up touting their religion in attempts to influence those realms of discourse and society. The issue many people have here with religion is not due to them failing to ignore it, but them failing to be LET ignore it.
    Matias Cold Valor wrote: »
    is it a case you all secretly believe in the possibility of His existence and keep trying very hard to quieten that little doubt in your heads as to His existence by your constant denials.

    That is a canard that I have seen sold on a few occasions for sure. Theists of a certain ilk sometimes like to sell the idea that all atheists are believers deep down just practicing some level of denial at some level.

    But I see little to warrant buying into that canard. I currently have no doubts for example. I have not once, in my entire life, been shown a single shred of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to lend even the most basic modicum of credence to the claim there is a god.... or as we have seen on this thread to substantiate most of the things people claim about Jesus.

    So there is simply no grounds for me to be suffering any inner doubts on the issue at all. And I see no reason why people who identify as "atheist" would be any different. The canard appears to be little more than a "head in the sand" tactic by people who do not want to enter into genuine discourse.... but feel they need to say SOMETHING all the same.

    The claims there is a god is not just a little, but entirely and completely unsubstantiated in any way. And people who do not like to admit that will indeed be tempted to resort to head in the sand tactics of pretending that even people who do not believe this crap.... secretly do believe that crap. As the old saying goes "Whatever helps you sleep at night".


  • Options
    #107
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Matias Cold Valor wrote: »
    If He doesn't exist,why can't you just ignore Him [...]
    As you ask - apart from having an organization with the childcare record of the RCC controlling the country's primary schools, what I find most objectionable is that every time certain family relatives show up, I receive long, raging spiels about male on male anal sex, abortion, the decadence and gross immorality of Educate Together schools, my generation and much else besides. Religion justifies and actively encourages this deranged behaviour.

    I would dearly love never to hear another word for the rest of my life about people's religious beliefs and what these miserable memes compel vulnerable people to spend their declining years raving about.


  • Options
    #108
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    robindch wrote: »

    I would dearly love never to hear another word for the rest of my life about people's religious beliefs and what these miserable memes compel vulnerable people to spend their declining years raving about.

    Is that why you spend so much of your life discussing them on here ?


  • Options
    #109
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    Is that why you spend so much of your life discussing them on here ?
    If you took part in any of the discussions here in A+A, rather than - say - waving your fist wonkily at people, you'd see that this forum discusses far, far more than deadend religious views.

    Pizza for a start. Proper pineapple-free pizza at that.


  • Options
    #110
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    robindch wrote: »
    If you took part in any of the discussions here in A+A, rather than - say - waving your fist wonkily at people, you'd see that this forum discusses far, far more than deadend religious views.

    Pizza for a start. Proper pineapple-free pizza at that.

    I'm all relaxed reclining on the sofa you need to take a chill pill dude.
    All that junk food's bad for you, try cutting down on it, you might be happier and your health might improve.


  • Options
    #111
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    I'm all relaxed reclining on the sofa you need to take a chill pill dude.
    And if your current inability to post anything worth reading doesn't miraculously volte-face, you'll be taking a holiday from the forum.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    robindch wrote: »
    And if your current inability to post anything worth reading doesn't miraculously volte-face, you'll be taking a holiday from the forum.

    Have you tried any relaxation techniques ?


  • Options
    #113
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    robindch wrote: »
    And if your current inability to post anything worth reading doesn't miraculously volte-face, you'll be taking a holiday from the forum.
    Have you tried any relaxation techniques ?
    La Fenetre is taking a holiday from the forum.


  • Options
    #114
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Matias Cold Valor wrote: »
    What doesn't make sense to me is athiests fascination with a God who all keep insisting doesn't exist and is in the same realm as the Flying Spaghetti Monster who also doesn't exist.

    If He doesn't exist,why can't you just ignore Him and get on with your lives or is it a case you all secretly believe in the possibility of His existence and keep trying very hard to quieten that little doubt in your heads as to His existence by your constant denials.

    What really doesn't make sense to me is the apparent fascination of some theists with the discussions of non-believers.

    As soon as any suggestion of even the slightest diminution of RC hegemony in this country is mooted, they're all over the thread like they got a bat-signal.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Options
    #115
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    What really doesn't make sense to me is the apparent fascination of some theists with the discussions of non-believers.

    As soon as any suggestion of even the slightest diminution of RC hegemony in this country is mooted, they're all over the thread like they got a bat-signal.

    I'm not RC and haven't been in over 30 years. :)


  • Options
    #116
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Everything is not all about you :)

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Options
    #117
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,138 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Saipanne wrote: »
    I came up with this off the top of my head. Nonsense?


    Jesus was free of sin.

    Suicide is a sin.

    Jesus is God.

    God is omnipotent.

    Jesus was crucified and died.

    Jesus had the power to not die.

    Jesus chose to die.

    Jesus commuted suicide.

    Jesus was not free of sin.


    Probably nonsense. :-)

    Out of 9 points that you make you manage to get 7 of them wrong so I guess you could be talking nonsenses!


  • Options
    #118
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,138 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    What really doesn't make sense to me is the apparent fascination of some theists with the discussions of non-believers.

    As soon as any suggestion of even the slightest diminution of RC hegemony in this country is mooted, they're all over the thread like they got a bat-signal.

    Equally what does'nt make sense to me is the obsession that atheists have with religion.


  • Options
    #119
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,844 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    We'll leave religion alone when it leaves us alone. Unfortunately, religion fails to uphold its side of that bargain.


  • Options
    #120
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,138 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    We'll leave religion alone when it leaves us alone. Unfortunately, religion fails to uphold its side of that bargain.

    So if my kid gets half an hour or whatever of information on religion in school per week,that's it, all is lost, the kid is ruined forever!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    We'll leave religion alone when it leaves us alone. Unfortunately, religion fails to uphold its side of that bargain.
    I rather doubt religion ever agreed to that bargain, so you can't really blame it to be honest......


Advertisement