Future in farming

djmc

While some spa rules I am happy enough with others and some notifiable actions I think should be questioned.
I can understand why reclaiming heath or bog and even planting forestry could be damaging to the hen harrier
It's the restrictions on green areas I have a problem with.
This land was always worked on for donkey's years old lads built lime kilns by hand and spread lime by hand and ploughed fields with a horse.
Also problems with weeds like rushes and ragworth that can't be sprayed.
I wish future schemes like glas would advise what to do with such problems.
Other issues like local authorities and planning should be looked at also for example some agricultural buildings are planning exempt unless you're in a Spa
It's also harder to get permission to build a house or a wind turbine in these areas all of which has had a knock on effect on land value.
The biggest threat to the hen harrier in spa areas is mature forestry mostly owned by the state body coilte yet the ones who have to pay the highest price are the farmers who didn't sell their land to them.

Dawggone

kowtow wrote: »

Agree completely - only to add that it is the complexity of the processing chain and commodity grade food from the farm that gives such a big inroad into the market to produce originating in other countries / continents.

If we allow the processing industry to persuade our local consumers that chicken nuggets are food, we can hardly blame the consumer for caring too much whether the corn which goes into them came from Offaly or Iowa.

Sadly true. The provenance of our food is way down the list of the housewife doing her weekly shop. Food has become a commodity...

I think that the Italians and the French etc.are more concerned about what they actually eat.

Big industry equals bad food.

Capercaillie

rangler1 wrote: »

It's a long time ago, but I do remember the urgency for getting it spent.

Was coveney in power when it was going on

Nothing was said, the money was diverted without revealing anything. An Taisce raised the question with Coveney recently and only under pressure did he divulge what happened the money.

djmc wrote: »

It's the restrictions on green areas I have a problem with.

Hen Harrier would use these areas as foraging area. Improved grasslands are of limited use for them

It's also harder to get permission to build a house or a wind turbine in these areas all of which has had a knock on effect on land value

Wind turbines are a huge risk to Hen Harriers. Since they glide low above ground, they are prone to getting caught in the turbines. There should be some relaxation on houses though. It only turns people against the Harriers. My neighbor tried to get permission to build a house but found it difficult due toit being in the SPA.

The biggest threat to the hen harrier in spa areas is mature forestry mostly owned by the state body coilte yet the ones who have to pay the highest price are the farmers who didn't sell their land to them

It is unfair. Coillte should be forced to fell areas of forestry within the SAC/SPA. The burden should not solely be put on the upland farmers. The 530 million euros was earmarked to compensate farmers in the Natura 2000 sites, but devious Coveney diverted the money. Shafting both the farmers and hen Harriers.

Bullocks

rangler1 wrote: »

It's a long time ago, but I do remember the urgency for getting it spent.

Was coveney in power when it was going on

I don't know but hopefully it will all be in the paper about who did what

djmc

Hen Harrier would use these areas as foraging area. Improved grasslands are of limited use for them

These area would have been improved in the past
Even to reseed with old conservation seed types and control the spread of weeds
Without lime that would have been always used in these areas as they are mostly acidic soil types and weed control it will lead to more land abandonment.
I know that they don't want fields of perennial ryegrass silage but surely there could be some happy medium to make it worth while grazing as it was for hundreds of years.

Wind turbines are a huge risk to Hen Harriers. Since they glide low above ground, they are prone to getting caught in the turbines. There should be some relaxation on houses though. It only turns people against the Harriers. My neighbor tried to get permission to build a house but found it difficult due toit being in the SPA

I can't agree or disagree about wind turbines until some proof or study on it is available.
I haven't heard of a single case of a hen harrier colliding with a wind turbine.
A recent case in the high Court gave permission but again it was to another state body the esb . If it was any ordinary Joe soap it wouldn't have got past planning.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/proposed-16-turbine-tipperary-wind-farm-given-go-ahead-1.2375201

_Brian

This thread sure is bleak reading


Modern living expectations have well outpaced the notion of a family living of farming income from all but very large holdings. I'm sure some posters here will remember a time when the family income was derived wholly of the farm and no need for a second income..

Its important to point out that for PAYE workers the same erosion of income/affordability has happened. There was a time when a man earning the standard industrial wage could support his family easily. However, this has become impossible now too with it being essential for a second PAYE income into households to maintain a reasonable standard.

When we look back to say the 1970's, a 50 Acre farm or a regular factory job both supported families with a basic standard of living, no luxuries, but they survived. Neither will now come any way close to maintaining a family.

So, to continue farming for most, the second household income is absolutely essential. This isn't just a failure of farming but an overall erosion in the affordability of family life. I know lads who feel a certain amount of failure because they cannot raise a family on the very farm on which their fathers did, but this is a society change rather than a failure to farm correctly.

Farm life provides a great lifestyle, supplement it with a decent off farm income and I see few nicer ways to raise a family, that's where I see the future of farming, particularly in marginal areas where land is heavy and winters long.

djmc

Unfortunately Brian I would have to agree with you and what's more investing heavy in small farms in marginal areas to expand in dairying renting ground etc. is probably only going to get lads in financial trouble going forward.

Yaa just hit 1000 posts after 10 years ☺

MF290

Some really interesting reading there. At the end of the day the public want cheap food and subsidies allow that.
I'd be in the same boat as op minus a few acres and don't think it would provide a comfortable lifestyle, bar if you're at dairying and that's assuming the milk price remains good. There's a lot of variables as well, would you be starting debt free with well managed land, good stock, do you plan on expanding rapidly or at all, what infrastructure is in place already? etc.. Very few farming that amount of land around here full time and I don't think you'd really need to be full time to farm that amount of land. Anyone in my area who has a nice set up either started farming with money or have another business or job like a butchers, cattle dealing, mixing their own rations etc. Full time farming can also be a lonely job too. Get a trade or degree, set up a business, travel and see if there's a niché or way of adding value to your produce or cutting costs. Myself, I hope to keep building up the farm until it gets to a stage where I think I could make a comfortable living off it.
On another note I remember Matt Dempsey writing an article on how part time farmers/ hobby farmers are effectively subsidising food production, what do ye make of that?

_Brian

MF290 wrote: »

Some really interesting reading there. At the end of the day the public want cheap food and subsidies allow that.
I'd be in the same boat as op minus a few acres and don't think it would provide a comfortable lifestyle, bar if you're at dairying and that's assuming the milk price remains good. There's a lot of variables as well, would you be starting debt free with well managed land, good stock, do you plan on expanding rapidly or at all, what infrastructure is in place already? etc.. Very few farming that amount of land around here full time and I don't think you'd really need to be full time to farm that amount of land. Anyone in my area who has a nice set up either started farming with money or have another business or job like a butchers, cattle dealing, mixing their own rations etc. Full time farming can also be a lonely job too. Get a trade or degree, set up a business, travel and see if there's a niché or way of adding value to your produce or cutting costs. Myself, I hope to keep building up the farm until it gets to a stage where I think I could make a comfortable living off it.
On another note I remember Matt Dempsey writing an article on how part time farmers/ hobby farmers are effectively subsidising food production, what do ye make of that?

Hobby farmers don't produce enough volume to distort the market in any meaningful way...

As for Part time farmers... How to we classify that ??
How many farm households rely solely on farming for their complete income, They are the only true full time farms. Definitely in this area its only a handful, I'd say maybe 5%. The rest are essentially part time farms as there is significant off farm income entering the farm.

EDIT:
79% of Irish farms are part time, i.e have on off farm income. from HERE

alps

[QUOTE=MF290;9767377
On another note I remember Matt Dempsey writing an article on how part time farmers/ hobby farmers are effectively subsidising food production, what do ye make of that?[/QUOTE]

Oh No!!!!!!!!

Look at the argument you'll start now.....

MF290

alps wrote: »

Oh No!!!!!!!!

Look at the argument you'll start now.....

I do enjoy stirring the sh1t.....

mattP

I live on a small 100 odd acre suckler farm and tbh I'm not too interested in taking over it, my father puts in hours and hours for little return, although im assured by the time I get it all the loans will be paid off and everything I make will be my own. My sister definitely won't be taking over -she has plans to get far far away- and its just the two of us, I do feel pressured to take it somewhat.
I think all in all like ye've said its just not viable on a small scale anymore.

barnaman

I think future is contract rearing all round. I agree to sell 1000 in spec cattle to factory at a flat rate at certain periods. This is what some farmers already are at anyway already. Most lads use an agent to purchase for them and that will continue or lads will subcontract that this farm supplies 50 stores of certain spec so on down the way. Most larger farmers I know farming as a limited company with them employed by co,pany and also them as directors. These larger farms will form partnerships etc for tax reasons etc sure that that will come in future changes in tax/ag legislation.

Better all round as provide security empowering farmers etc will be Dept and IFA spin

Subsidies are a con no longer needed for food security detached from that anyway now. Also imo marginal land prices are set to drop alot of land out west is useless for farming you know when the English were giving it to us it was not of of kindness of their hearts. Land in tipp 4 cuts silage these year lads out west striggled to save one.

Dickie10

I just started farming at home around 115 acres sheep and beef (sucklers to finish) and some years rear 10 suck calves depending on price of calves, there is money to be made although there are no loans on the farm. its only myself and my elderly parents who are 80 and 72. i work part time as a secondary teacher, mostly subbing. at the minute since sept im working 3 days a week an odd time 3 and a half. i set up my sheep to lamb around mid feb (40) and easter holidays (60), but lucky enough my father is still able to see to them from 8-4.30 when im not there and there lambing. if you have drive and want to succeed you will make a living but it wont give you a lavish lifesyle, the frugal life suits me grand and i have no mortgage either so thats a plus.

Cassidy2

barnaman wrote: »

I think future is contract rearing all round. I agree to sell 1000 in spec cattle to factory at a flat rate at certain periods. This is what some farmers already are at anyway already. Most lads use an agent to purchase for them and that will continue or lads will subcontract that this farm supplies 50 stores of certain spec so on down the way. Most larger farmers I know farming as a limited company with them employed by co,pany and also them as directors. These larger farms will form partnerships etc for tax reasons etc sure that that will come in future changes in tax/ag legislation.

Better all round as provide security empowering farmers etc will be Dept and IFA spin

Subsidies are a con no longer needed for food security detached from that anyway now. Also imo marginal land prices are set to drop alot of land out west is useless for farming you know when the English were giving it to us it was not of of kindness of their hearts. Land in tipp 4 cuts silage these year lads out west striggled to save one.

Do you buy forward cattle and feed for 70 days

barnaman

I do but not those numbers! The I there was in hypothehical farmer sense. My forward heifers left €45 each just worked out! Stores been too expensive this year. Still trying todo a 5 year plan each time I start at it just annoys me.

I want a job bridge lad for farming! Thats one biggest probs farming is need for help I farm by myself and its brutal; now I know why lads had 15 in the family.

Miname

mattP wrote: »

I live on a small 100 odd acre suckler farm and tbh I'm not too interested in taking over it, my father puts in hours and hours for little return, although im assured by the time I get it all the loans will be paid off and everything I make will be my own. My sister definitely won't be taking over -she has plans to get far far away- and its just the two of us, I do feel pressured to take it somewhat.
I think all in all like ye've said its just not viable on a small scale anymore.

Don't be tied to the farm if you don't want it. With farming there has to be a passion for it if it's to work right. There's a couple of lads around me who started without an acre of ground . One lad runs 60 cows selling all as weanlings and the other 40 and finishing everything. Both lads are starting to make reasonably decent coin off it now and have paid for their land and buildings through the farm. They've built up assets between half a million and the other a million out of the farm and still be able to make a bit of a return. It goes to show with the right frame of mind it can be done.

Dickie10

yes it can you have to be passionate about it, i spend nearly every day looking for a way to improve or save or make money from the farm, from soil sampling to breeds of cow to breeds of ram or ewe type etc, my father was more of a hobby farmer and farmed extensivle, he gave me full control and seems delighted with the interest i have anything i put forward for plan is taken on board and advice is given if he can if not he will point me in the right direction. without such support from the mother and father i doubt i could make it work, this relationship is vital to the business imo.