Why does a single incident on the M50 have to bring the whole thing to a standstill?

boardie100

partial rant this ... but after being stuck on the m50 northbound this morning for 90 mins due to rubber necking at the incident on the redcow southbound off ramp.... im just wondering the partitions are so low between both sides of the motorway....surely they could put some kind of higher barrier in so the whole city doesnt come to a standstill due to one accident!..

I know rubber neckers are the problem but unfortunately they are a fact of life in this country!

Alun

boardie100 wrote: »

partial rant this ... but after being stuck on the m50 northbound this morning for 90 mins due to rubber necking at the incident on the redcow southbound off ramp.... im just wondering the partitions are so low between both sides of the motorway....surely they could put some kind of higher barrier in so the whole city doesnt come to a standstill due to one accident!..

I know rubber neckers are the problem but unfortunately they are a fact of life in this country!

In some European countries they erect temporary screens around incidents to try and prevent rubbernecking. They also often have police on both sides waving cars on very aggressively to get them moving.

jobless

Alun wrote: »

In some European countries they erect temporary screens around incidents to try and prevent rubbernecking. They also often have police on both sides waving cars on very aggressively to get them moving.

perish the thought of Ireland copying something that works!

foggy_lad

Drivers are numptys when they see an accident or anything out of the ordinary, the same people can't merge into traffic properly and when they start looking at what is going on across the motorway from their position in the fast lane they slow down to a crawl and stop paying attention to their driving. this slows everything down.

Bringing a mobile camera on a tall pole to sites of incidents and recording these rubbernecking idiots would be useful and allow them to be identified and either fined and given points or offered a basic driving course at their own expense.

GTE

I have always thought that it was an oversight in the new motorway designs, as opposed to the ones with high hedges between the carriage ways. Fair enough, they are less maintenance but they can be low enough to facilitate some idiots curiosity about an incident on the other side of the road.

ohnonotgmail

Alun wrote: »

In some European countries they erect temporary screens around incidents to try and prevent rubbernecking. They also often have police on both sides waving cars on very aggressively to get them moving.

given the number of traffic corp members standing around on the exit ramp this morning ( i counted 8 of them) i dont see why they couldnt be doing something useful like this.

Carawaystick

Traffic on the m50 jams up even without crashes...

my friend

The responders should be equipped with bean bag and paint guns, any vehicle not briskly moving on should be pelted

Ronan|Raven

it was a joke this morning. Over an hour from J15 to J7.
As soon as we pass the crash traffic magically speeds up.

VisibleGorilla

M50 is just insane, boggles my mind why they don't have a partition that will block the view of the other side, no reason at all to see the opposite flow of traffic.

It seems to me the majority of drivers either don't know or care how to drive on a motorway, constantly in the wrong lanes, driving too slow, not merging correctly, braking unnecessarily, etc..

mahoganygas

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

given the number of traffic corp members standing around on the exit ramp this morning ( i counted 8 of them) i dont see why they couldnt be doing something useful like this.

Found a culprit.
:pac:

ohnonotgmail

mahoganygas wrote: »

Found a culprit.
:pac:

well i can only go as fast as the car in front of me. I had plenty of time to look. or are you suggesting i barge the cars in front of me out of the way Mad Max style?

The boarder

VisibleGorilla wrote:

It seems to me the majority of drivers either don't know or care how to drive on a motorway, constantly in the wrong lanes, driving too slow, not merging correctly, braking unnecessarily, etc..

The exact same when driving on the m1. Drivers randomly braking for no reason. Driving at 100km in the over taking lane with no traffic on the inside lane.

jobless

so there is no actual reason for the low partitions?.... surely they werent design that stupidly! ... even now they could but up some sort of partition

magicbastarder

traffic jams appear spontaneously; it's a result of human reaction time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suugn-p5C1M

jobless

magicbastarder wrote: »

traffic jams appear spontaneously; it's a result of human reaction time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suugn-p5C1M

dunno what that has got to do with rubber necking?

sparrowcar

jobless wrote: »

dunno what that has got to do with rubber necking?

Did you watch the video?
It's a very well known fact that many traffic jams are caused by the effect shown in the video and not just rubber necking.

mel123

I travel the M50 every morning and i'm losing patience. Its every morning now. Someone just has to be broken down at the side of the road doing NOTHING and it slows the whole motorway down.
You would think there could be even ONE traffic cop on the motorway every morning trying to speed things along when they get jammed up, but that would just make too much sense in this country.

jobless

sparrowcar wrote: »

Did you watch the video?
It's a very well known fact that many traffic jams are caused by the effect shown in the video and not just rubber necking.

i did watch the video and while it demonstrates how traffic jams can be caused it has nothing to do with how to prevent rubber neckers causing the jam as discussed in this thread..
this incident was caused by people slowing down to have a good look across the motorway

jobless

mel123 wrote: »

I travel the M50 every morning and i'm losing patience. Its every morning now. Someone just has to be broken down at the side of the road doing NOTHING and it slows the whole motorway down.
You would think there could be even ONE traffic cop on the motorway every morning trying to speed things along when they get jammed up, but that would just make too much sense in this country.

Glad im not the only one! .. its gotton to the stage now where someone in the hard shoulder with their hazards on will cause tail backs...
also the amount of articulated lorries cruising along slowly in the middle lane is a major bugbear

Jellybaby1

I keep hearing this from others who have to travel on the M50. If an accident happens on one side, the other side also backs up due to rubberneckers. That should not happen, but there should be traffic guards moving them on. That would be the sensible and logical thing to do, wouldn't it. :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I keep hearing this from others who have to travel on the M50. If an accident happens on one side, the other side also backs up due to rubberneckers. That should not happen, but there should be traffic guards moving them on. That would be the sensible and logical thing to do, wouldn't it. :rolleyes:

Where would you suggest these Garda stand move people on? 4/5 lanes wide in places and behind the crash barrier on the side is only marginally safer than in front of it

suicide_circus

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

M50 is just insane, boggles my mind why they don't have a partition that will block the view of the other side, no reason at all to see the opposite flow of traffic.

It seems to me the majority of drivers either don't know or care how to drive on a motorway, constantly in the wrong lanes, driving too slow, not merging correctly, braking unnecessarily, etc..

Motorway driving forms neither part of the mandatory lesson syllabus or driving test.

Jellybaby1

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Where would you suggest these Garda stand move people on? 4/5 lanes wide in places and behind the crash barrier on the side are marginally safer than in front of it

Well, as the traffic would be either stopped or moving at a snail's pace I don't think the guards would be in much danger of being run down. They have the legal power to stop and direct traffic anywhere.

sKeith

suicide_circus wrote: »

Motorway driving forms neither part of the mandatory lesson syllabus or driving test.

The same rules apply.
Keep left. Use extra lanes for overtaking. not crusing.
Right have way. Drivers on your right have priority.

I was asked questions about moterway driving for my test.
Instructor asked me when it was okay to stop in hard sholder of moterway.
Answer was never, unless your machine breaks down.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

FarmerBren

Alun wrote: »

In some European countries they erect temporary screens around incidents to try and prevent rubbernecking. They also often have police on both sides waving cars on very aggressively to get them moving.

That would mean the Gardai being pro-active in trying to resolve a problem. That's not there style.
Seen Spanish Police actually trying to keep traffic moving on several occasions while on holiday. The Gardai approach is more reactive, shudder the thought of getting off their ass's and actually directing traffic!!

magicbastarder

jobless wrote: »

this incident was caused by people slowing down to have a good look across the motorway

I think you're mixing cause and correlation here. a simple act of braking slightly too hard causes the accordion effect to kick in - which causes the jam to develop *behind* the initial point. people are not driving slowly due to rubbernecking, they're driving slowly because there is a jam.

so I suspect that all it can take is an incident in the other lane - which causes one driver to brake out of alarm/caution, and you have a jam. which will take ages to clear, even if no-one is rubbernecking.

MarkR

Sure how can you take a picture to share on social media if you don't slow down? And you need to get the selfie action in too.

jobless

magicbastarder wrote: »

I think you're mixing cause and correlation here. a simple act of braking slightly too hard causes the accordion effect to kick in - which causes the jam to develop *behind* the initial point. people are not driving slowly due to rubbernecking, they're driving slowly because there is a jam.

so I suspect that all it can take is an incident in the other lane - which causes one driver to brake out of alarm/caution, and you have a jam. which will take ages to clear, even if no-one is rubbernecking.

point still stands, one car braking isnt going to cause a 90 minute tail back.... its numerous cars slowing down that starts it.... if there was a barrier there, there would be no slowing down then no tail backs

Carawaystick

Unless it was an invisible barrier that no driver could see to slow down to have a look at,
people will slow down to look at it.

GreeBo

jobless wrote: »

point still stands, one car braking isnt going to cause a 90 minute tail back.... its numerous cars slowing down that starts it.... if there was a barrier there, there would be no slowing down then no tail backs

Except that it does cause this.

once person breaking causes someone behind to have to stop, this then causes a tailback and if it happens at rushhour you get a whole heap of cars at a dead stop, with cars behind approaching at 100KM/h.

This is how you cause a 90 minute tailback by 1 person tapping their brakes.

jobless

GreeBo wrote: »

Except that it does cause this.

once person breaking causes someone behind to have to stop, this then causes a tailback and if it happens at rushhour you get a whole heap of cars at a dead stop, with cars behind approaching at 100KM/h.

This is how you cause a 90 minute tailback by 1 person tapping their brakes.

i disagree, maybe on a single laned road but this section has three lanes so someone slowing down in the fast lane isn't going to cause the motorway to come to a halt.... it needs a few cars doing this to slow traffic down.... and thats because they are all rubber necking...

Alun

And once again, at least according to Google Maps traffic, the M50 is backed up northbound up until J7, where the accident occurred this morning on the southbound carriageway, as far as back as Sandyford. After J7 it's flowing freely again.

seamus

Alun wrote: »

And once again, at least according to Google Maps traffic, the M50 is backed up northbound up until J7, where the accident occurred this morning on the southbound carriageway, as far as back as Sandyford. After J7 it's flowing freely again.

That's probably more than the rubberneckers. The southbound traffic is all being diverted to the N4 westbound to take the ORR. So congestion is probably affecting anyone coming off the M50 northbound at J7.

jobless

Alun wrote: »

And once again, at least according to Google Maps traffic, the M50 is backed up northbound up until J7, where the accident occurred this morning on the southbound carriageway, as far as back as Sandyford. After J7 it's flowing freely again.

looked like a serious incident, hope the woman is ok!..

I did notice one guard waving north bound traffic on as i passed, maybe he was reading this thread

mcgovern

Alun wrote: »

And once again, at least according to Google Maps traffic, the M50 is backed up northbound up until J7, where the accident occurred this morning on the southbound carriageway, as far as back as Sandyford. After J7 it's flowing freely again.

Came on at J9 heading southbound (after cross country diversion as normally join at J7). I can confirm it was backed up northbound to just before J14 and wasn't moving so looked like it was only going to get worse.

Dyr

Big shout out to dublin for the ability to make a crisis worse today, rerouting buses away from their normal routes but the drivers deciding they weren't going to stop at any bus stops on the alternate route.

Dravokivich

Bambi wrote: »

Big shout out to dublin for the ability to make a crisis worse today, rerouting buses away from their normal routes but the drivers deciding they weren't going to stop at any bus stops on the alternate route.

Why are you blaming the drivers? Surely you are angry at Dublin Bus for not telling them to pick up along the alternate route?

mel123

Im not going to give out too much, because mother of God did you see the car that poor woman was in?!

BUT, the accident happened at 5/5.30am, and I understand they need to do forensics etc, but closed till 12?!?!? The whole of Dublin has come to a standstill, its crazy.

Alex Meier

Presumably the bus lanes are still closed to traffic.

Screw the motorist trying to get to work to keep the country going.

markpb

Alex Meier wrote: »

Presumably the bus lanes are still closed to traffic. Screw the motorist trying to get to work to keep the country going.

There are no passengers on the buses trying to get to work?

More people travel into the city centre by bus than by car. Opening the bus lanes to all traffic would mean that the minority are disrupting the majority.

plodder

Worst traffic I've ever seen on the Clontarf road this morning. It seemed to be backed up all the way along Alfie Byrne rd - so just turned around after moving one mile in one hour. It's hard to see how this would be related to the M50 crash.

VisibleGorilla

Closing off the M50 southbound is going to trickle down across the entire city.

Couple that with the rain and people dropping their children to school, you have the chaos of this morning.

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

Worst traffic I've ever seen on the Clontarf road this morning. It seemed to be backed up all the way along Alfie Byrne rd - so just turned around after moving one mile in one hour. It's hard to see how this would be related to the M50 crash.

It would be caused by large amounts of traffic taking the eastlink route from north Dublin instead of the M50. Knock-on effect all over the city.

All of the traffic that normally uses the M50 is having to re-route all across the city.

esforum

FarmerBren wrote: »

That would mean the Gardai being pro-active in trying to resolve a problem. That's not there style.
Seen Spanish Police actually trying to keep traffic moving on several occasions while on holiday. The Gardai approach is more reactive, shudder the thought of getting off their ass's and actually directing traffic!!

The Spanish have in excess of 200,000 sworn police officers. Included in this number is about 35 - 40,000 Policia Local and Policia Urbano who deal solely with local issues and traffic enforcement.

Then you have a dedicated Guardia Civil unit dedicated to just motorway policing.

Comparing it to Ireland is a laughable comparison, the amount of Gardai in total is less than their local police. Numbers wise Spain has 60 million people compared to Irelands roughly 5 1/2 to 6 million. 12000 Gardai equates to roughly 120,000 police for Spains population. See any issue here? Your talking about deleting the entire Guardia Civil and stretching the Policia National to now cover rural policing, sea and mountain rescue, maritine and motorway policing. Suggest that to a Spanish person and see what they say.


Besides all that, have you actually seen how the Spanish drive and park??? I wouldnt be using them as an example for anything driver related.

jobless

mel123 wrote: »

Im not going to give out too much, because mother of God did you see the car that poor woman was in?!

BUT, the accident happened at 5/5.30am, and I understand they need to do forensics etc, but closed till 12?!?!? The whole of Dublin has come to a standstill, its crazy.

yeah looked a very bad smash.... not sure why they have to close it for so long... maybe they had to wait for forensics to come...
thats two accidents involving heavy vehicles in two weeks...cant say im surprised the way some of them drive

im assuming there are cameras on this stretch and they can see what happened

esforum

FarmerBren wrote: »

That would mean the Gardai being pro-active in trying to resolve a problem. That's not there style.
Seen Spanish Police actually trying to keep traffic moving on several occasions while on holiday. The Gardai approach is more reactive, shudder the thought of getting off their ass's and actually directing traffic!!

The Spanish have in excess of 200,000 sworn police officers. Included in this number is about 35 - 40,000 Policia Local and Policia Urbano who deal solely with local issues and traffic enforcement.

Then you have a dedicated Guardia Civil unit dedicated to just motorway policing.

Comparing it to Ireland is a laughable comparison, the amount of Gardai in total is less than their local police. Numbers wise Spain has 60 million people compared to Irelands roughly 5 1/2 to 6 million. 12000 Gardai equates to roughly 120,000 police for Spains population. See any issue here? Your talking about deleting the entire Guardia Civil and stretching the Policia National to now cover rural policing, sea and mountain rescue, maritine and motorway policing. Suggest that to a Spanish person and see what they say.


Besides all that, have you actually seen how the Spanish drive and park??? I wouldnt be using them as an example for anything driver related.

mel123 wrote: »

I travel the M50 every morning and i'm losing patience. Its every morning now. Someone just has to be broken down at the side of the road doing NOTHING and it slows the whole motorway down.
You would think there could be even ONE traffic cop on the motorway every morning trying to speed things along when they get jammed up, but that would just make too much sense in this country.

Theres probable more than one but its a long road both ways and all it takes is 1 incident or stupid driver and that Garda is now out of action

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I keep hearing this from others who have to travel on the M50. If an accident happens on one side, the other side also backs up due to rubberneckers. That should not happen, but there should be traffic guards moving them on. That would be the sensible and logical thing to do, wouldn't it. :rolleyes:

Whats sensible is for the very drivers that are effected byb rubbernecking to actually stop rubbernecking. What do you want the Garda to do? Drag every rubbernecker out through the window and physically remove the car from the road? Its rubbernecking, all the Gardai can do without making things worse is wave and shout at a driver thats obviously not paying attention!

Dyr

Dravokivich wrote: »

Why are you blaming the drivers? Surely you are angry at Dublin Bus for not telling them to pick up along the alternate route?

Yeah I am blaming the driver. I know most of them have'nt the wit to bless themselves but some cop on required instead of the usual jobsworth carry on

larchill

mel123 wrote: »

Im not going to give out too much, because mother of God did you see the car that poor woman was in?!

BUT, the accident happened at 5/5.30am, and I understand they need to do forensics etc, but closed till 12?!?!? The whole of Dublin has come to a standstill, its crazy.

Worst I've seen to date. I also ask why the busiest road in the country has to be closed for hours because of this? No fatalities, just 3 vehicles - this is surely Paddyland stuff. On the way in this morning, it was going to be lunch time @ least before reopening. How necessary/avoidable is this? What are the international norms for handling this type of situation I wonder?

plodder

lxflyer wrote: »

It would be caused by large amounts of traffic taking the eastlink route from north Dublin instead of the M50. Knock-on effect all over the city.

All of the traffic that normally uses the M50 is having to re-route all across the city.

Duh, good point! Makes the case I think for the eastern bypass.

They need (properly enforced) variable speed limits on the M50. If traffic trundles along at peak times consistently at 60-70 km/h, it will avoid a lot of accidents and improve throughput.