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So is prostitution to be outlawed in Ireland or what?

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    #242
    Mister Vain
    Registered Users Posts: 6,055 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    No. Taking advantage is the term that comes to mind. Ungentlemanly is another.

    Even if we're both attracted to each and both want it?


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    #243
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Mister Vain wrote: »
    Even if we're both attracted to each and both want it?

    No, of course not. But you are deludung yourself if you are in that situation and handing over money.


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    #244
    Mister Vain
    Registered Users Posts: 6,055 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    No, of course not. But you are deludung yourself if you are in that situation and handing over money.

    Well I was just using that as an example, not a great one admittedly but the point is there's no coercion involved, just like there's no coercion involved in exchanging money for sex if the sex worker is doing it of their own free will.


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    #245
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Mister Vain wrote: »
    Well I was just using that as an example, not a great one admittedly but the point is there's no coercion involved, just like there's no coercion involved in exchanging money for sex if the sex worker is doing it of their own free will.

    Yip, and they are effectively both sex workers.


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    #246
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Any time you want to answer the post you ignored - - I am here for you.


    It's quite simple. There is more to prostitution and it's impact on society than your reductionist individual consenting adults scenario. It's an issue that has a negative impact on society. The State cannot afford the luxury of your perfect scenarios which ignore the negative aspects of prostitution for many people, apart from your two consenting adults. Regulation and legalisation has been tried in other countries to lessen the negative impact upon society in those countries, and it just hasn't worked, and so there is no chance of prostitution being fully legalised and regulated in this country IMO.


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    #247
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Regulation and legalisation has been tried in other countries to lessen the negative impact upon society in those countries, and it just hasn't worked.

    Have you any evidence,links that a legal regulated sex market is worse for the people who work in and use that industry than an illegal unregulated market?


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    #248
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Have you any evidence,links that a legal regulated sex market is worse for the people who work in and use that industry than an illegal unregulated market?


    I think the word I used was 'society', not just the people who work as sex workers, so your question isn't even related to what I wrote.

    Sweden btw is one of the most liberal, irreligious, progressive societies in the world, and they came up with the Swedish model, so it has nothing to do with morality or religion in Irish society.


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    #249
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I think the word I used was 'society', not just the people who work as sex workers, so your question isn't even related to what I wrote.

    So no evidence then? You stated earlier that making the purchase of sex illegal will have no effect on Irish society.


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    #250
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    RustyNut wrote: »
    So no evidence then?


    No evidence for something I never argued, no.


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    #251
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    One eyed Jack wrote: »

    Sweden btw is one of the most liberal, irreligious, progressive societies in the world, and they came up with the Swedish model, so it has nothing to do with morality or religion in Irish society.

    And the country with the highest rape rates in Europe


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    #252
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    One eyed Jack wrote: »

    Sweden btw is one of the most liberal, irreligious, progressive societies in the world, and they came up with the Swedish model, so it has nothing to do with morality or religion in Irish society.

    this is a foolish statement

    in Sweden the law was pushed by feminists, but in Ireland there are two groups behind the law, feminists and nuns, so yes it most definitely does have something to do with religion in Irish society

    and BTW its NOT a liberal law nor is it progressive


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    #253
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    RustyNut wrote: »
    And the country with the highest rape rates in Europe


    This might interest you -


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden


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    #254
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users Posts: 5,781 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    If a consenting adult wants to monetise his or her body and offer a service to another consenting adult, involving an exchange of cash, I really don't see how it's our business or the government's business.


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    #255
    Crossubrigs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 ✭Crossubrigs


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    It's quite simple. There is more to prostitution and it's impact on society than your reductionist individual consenting adults scenario. It's an issue that has a negative impact on society. The State cannot afford the luxury of your perfect scenarios which ignore the negative aspects of prostitution for many people, apart from your two consenting adults. Regulation and legalisation has been tried in other countries to lessen the negative impact upon society in those countries, and it just hasn't worked, and so there is no chance of prostitution being fully legalised and regulated in this country IMO.

    Would you care to elaborate on the negative impact on society you think legalised prostitution has?


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    #256
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Crossubrigs wrote: »
    Would you care to elaborate on the negative impact on society you think legalised prostitution has?


    Here's a good article on the matter as I don't have all day myself -


    http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/the_real_harms_of_prostitution


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    #257
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Here's a good article on the matter as I don't have all day myself -

    before you go Jackie :rolleyes: any chance of getting your definition of consent, I only asked you about 5 times now, its not a difficult word to define


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    #258
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    nokia69 wrote: »
    before you go Jackie :rolleyes: any chance of getting your definition of consent, I only asked you about 5 times now, its not a difficult word to define


    Actually, it is -


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/new-sex-offences-legislation-lacks-definition-of-consent-1.2186830


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    #259
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Actually, it is -


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/new-sex-offences-legislation-lacks-definition-of-consent-1.2186830


    actually its not

    just because you and some other people have serious problems with the word, does NOT make it hard to define

    go on Jackie give it a go, define consent please


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    #260
    Crossubrigs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 ✭Crossubrigs


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Here's a good article on the matter as I don't have all day myself -


    ww.mercatornet.com/articles/view/the_real_harms_of_prostitutiol]

    The only negative impact of legalising prostitution in that article was regarding issues of zoning and permits .

    It states that "prostitution removes a person's humanity". Prostitutes are still human beings so no its doesn't remove their humanity. That's such an insulting generalisation to prostitutes who enjoy their job.


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    #261
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Crossubrigs wrote: »
    The only negative impact of legalising prostitution in that article was regarding issues of zoning and permits .

    It states that "prostitution removes a person's humanity". Prostitutes are still human beings so no its doesn't remove their humanity. That's such an insulting generalisation to prostitutes who enjoy their job.


    Yes, I suppose it's an equally insulting generalisation to people who campaign against prostitution to assume that they are motivated by feminism, or religion, or morality, or any of the rest of that crap that defies some people's ideas of logic, but hey, that doesn't seem to prevent some people from still throwing it out there as if they think it's going to make any difference to those people's opinions.


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    #262
    Crossubrigs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 ✭Crossubrigs


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Yes, I suppose it's an equally insulting generalisation to people who campaign against prostitution to assume that they are motivated by feminism, or religion, or morality, or any of the rest of that crap that defies some people's ideas of logic, but hey, that doesn't seem to prevent some people from still throwing it out there as if they think it's going to make any difference to those people's opinions.

    I haven't made any points about feminism or religion, if you want to discuss that then address it to someone who brought it up.


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    #263
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Crossubrigs wrote: »
    I haven't made any points about feminism or religion, if you want to discuss that then address it to someone who brought it up.


    I could easily say the same then to you about your taking offence to what you see as the insulting generalisations written in that article by that author who has 45 years experience working with women who are sex workers (check the SWAI site for why calling sex workers 'prostitutes' is insulting to them) - take it up with the author.

    I was agreeing with the point you made btw with regard to people who want to work in the sex industry, and I have many friends who still work in the sex industry and we have great respect for each other, but there aren't too many of them, and they can certainly understand where I'm coming from, because they too see the damage done to many people who enter into prostitution. It's not enough for them though to campaign for it to be made illegal, but they understand why I do.


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    #264
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    still here Jackie, I thought you had stuff to do

    and still not answering simple questions


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    #265
    Crossubrigs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 ✭Crossubrigs


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I could easily say the same then to you about your taking offence to what you see as the insulting generalisations written in that article by that author who has 45 years experience working with women who are sex workers (check the SWAI site for why calling sex workers 'prostitutes' is insulting to them) - take it up with the author.

    I was agreeing with the point you made btw with regard to people who want to work in the sex industry, and I have many friends who still work in the sex industry and we have great respect for each other, but there aren't too many of them, and they can certainly understand where I'm coming from, because they too see the damage done to many people who enter into prostitution. It's not enough for them though to campaign for it to be made illegal, but they understand why I do.

    I didn't take offence. You posted it, so it would make sense to take it up with you.


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    #266
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    nokia69 wrote: »
    still here Jackie, I thought you had stuff to do

    and still not answering simple questions


    I already answered your question nokia and I gave you a definition of consent, but I'll go with this one then if it will finally get you to stop bitching -

    The organisation was advocating for a positive definition of consent to sexual activity similar to that adopted in England and Wales in a 2003 law.

    This definition reads: “A person consents if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice.”


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    #267
    Mister Vain
    Registered Users Posts: 6,055 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    It sure has, we agree on that much. It's making prostitution less and less relevant in society all the time with instant hook-up apps like tindr and grindr and social media and so on. Nobody really actually needs prostitution any more.

    Just wondering if you've ever used those apps yourself? I don't think there are as many people hooking up as you'd like to believe. They're certainly not going to put sex workers out of business anyway.


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    #268
    Canterelle
    Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭Canterelle


    I think the consent thing is more complicated in this context. It is not simply that the sex worker is agreeing to sex full stop. They would definitely not agree to it unless they were being paid. And this notion of the happy sex worker is perpetuated by those who want to assuage their guilt. They are being paid to 'like' it and of course are not going to put a customer off by saying they are just doing it cos they feel they have to. Honestly, do customers really delude themselves that the sex worker likes them?


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    #269
    Mister Vain
    Registered Users Posts: 6,055 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    Canterelle wrote: »
    I think the consent thing is more complicated in this context. It is not simply that the sex worker is agreeing to sex full stop. They would definitely not agree to it unless they were being paid. And this notion of the happy sex worker is perpetuated by those who want to assuage their guilt. They are being paid to 'like' it and of course are not going to put a customer off by saying they are just doing it cos they feel they have to. Honestly, do customers really delude themselves that the sex worker likes them?

    Unlikely unless they're seriously naive. Sex workers may not enjoy their work but then neither do a lot of other people working 9-5 jobs.


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    #270
    Canterelle
    Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭Canterelle


    Mister Vain wrote: »
    Unlikely unless they're seriously naive. Sex workers may not enjoy their work but then neither do a lot of other people working 9-5 jobs.

    I don't enjoy my work. But I would never compare my situation to that of a Sex worker who doesn't "enjoy their work". I don't think it's right to consider sex work as just another job either. In no other job would u have such a high risk of physical and sexual violence being visited on you, or being looked down upon as scum by a lot of society, or contracting nasty infections or diseases, or emotional abuse. I am sure there are more disastrous downsides too. I'm not saying that there aren't sex workers who willingly take up this lucrative work and even come away relatively unscathed but imo they are the minority. However, I don't know what the solution is, there will always be a need and demand for sex. I don't think criminalising the purchaser is right.


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    #271
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Mister Vain wrote: »
    Just wondering if you've ever used those apps yourself? I don't think there are as many people hooking up as you'd like to believe. They're certainly not going to put sex workers out of business anyway.


    I haven't, tbh (I don't even have a Facebook account), but my friends have used them and definitely it's a case of "your mileage may vary". There are tons of other websites too where like-minded people can indulge in all sorts of kink, or just the vanilla variety missionary stuff if they want, and they can do it for free, with people who are only too willing to fulfill their every fantasy.

    I know none of these sites or apps or anything else are going to put sex workers out of business, nor are they going to prevent people from visiting sex workers should they choose to do so. But the difference between the two (not just in terms of the fact that one is free and the other isn't, or the fact that one is more convenient than the other), is the fact that all those other options are completely legal, no legal restrictions whatsoever and no need to worry about any possible legal repercussions... whereas the other, sex work?

    Well, you get the idea.


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