ESB public charging plans

Hector Mildew

I got a copy of the ESB charging plans today, confirming €16.99 per month for access to public charging.

If I'm reading it correctly, it looks like there'll be a charge per use for fast charging, in addition to the monthly charge, after April 2016.

I'm not an EV owner yet - still thinking about it, but this is food for thought as based on my driving I would only be an occasional user of fast charging (but wouldn't like to be without it) ..

Padraig Mor

Hector Mildew wrote: »

I got a copy of the ESB charging plans today, confirming €16.99 per month for access to public charging.

If I'm reading it correctly, it looks like there'll be a charge per use for fast charging, in addition to the monthly charge, after April 2016.

I'm not an EV owner yet - still thinking about it, but this is food for thought as based on my driving I would only be an occasional user of fast charging (but wouldn't like to be without it) ..

So, €17 a month just for the privilege of accessing the public network - even if you rarely use, or plan never to use, it? Plus extra charges for fast chargers? Ridiculous! This could kill EVs stone dead, just as they're gaining in popularity.

Benny_Cake

Padraig Mor wrote: »

So, €17 a month just for the privilege of accessing the public network - even if you rarely use, or plan never to use, it? Plus extra charges for fast chargers? Ridiculous! This could kill EVs stone dead, just as they're gaining in popularity.

Pretty dumb alright. I rarely use the public network but I would still need to be able to access it in case I was making a longer trip. Per unit charging would make a lot more sense for me, at least give people a choice between paying a monthly subscription and a low per unit rate, or no subscription and a higher per unit rate.

TBi

If this is true then I definitely won't be going electric. Per unit charging is the only way to go.

stesaurus

That is ridiculous if true. All it will do is make people use a fast charge regularly when they don't need it so that they're getting their moneys worth.
Absolutely stupid.

Villain

This would be crazy, starting to charge for an unreliable system is one thing but charging you simply to have the option of using charge points along with charging for any usage is insane.

Op where did you get that leaflet?

The communication of ESB ecars is beyond embarrassing now.

Hector Mildew

Villain wrote: »

This would be crazy, starting to charge for an unreliable system is one thing but charging you simply to have the option of using charge points along with charging for any usage is insane.

Op where did you get that leaflet?

The communication of ESB ecars is beyond embarrassing now.

A colleague of mine got it from a Nissan dealer earlier this week.

I'm having second thoughts about getting an EV now as I would be mostly be charging at home - my work round trip is well within range. 17 pm will work out expensive for my occasional cross country trips, should I need a fast charge. Hopefully they'll add a pay per charge option..

homer911

Doesn't make any allowance for overseas visitors - maybe they are only running up a flag and seeing how people react?

Villain

Hector Mildew wrote: »

A colleague of mine got it from a Nissan dealer earlier this week.

I'm having second thoughts about getting an EV now as I would be mostly be charging at home - my work round trip is well within range. 17 pm will work out expensive for my occasional cross country trips, should I need a fast charge. Hopefully they'll add a pay per charge option..

I have a leaf one year now and 99% of the charging for the 15k I have up was done at home but having to pay €17 a month to have the option to pay for public charging points?? Crazy

I'm just glad I know the min value of my car with PCP so I can start planning to walk away if this comes in.

Benny_Cake

homer911 wrote: »

Doesn't make any allowance for overseas visitors - maybe they are only running up a flag and seeing how people react?

Very true, I don't know if anyone has seen Kiwi EV's videos but his experience of driving across European borders is an example of how important it is that someone should be able to pay for a charge at the point of use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j941UIWlLPY

Hector Mildew

Villain wrote: »

I have a leaf one year now and 99% of the charging for the 15k I have up was done at home but having to pay €17 a month to have the option to pay for public charging points?? Crazy

I'm just glad I know the min value of my car with PCP so I can start planning to walk away if this comes in.

It sounds crazy alright, imagine if Topaz required a subscription just to use their filling services, in addition to 1.30 per litre? Well the competition would kill them, maybe that's whats needed.

The ESB seem to be following the mobile phone network subcription model with this, hopefully they'll have a pre-pay alternative at the very least - if pure pay per charge isn't an option.

Lutecia

Do we have any anti-monopoly law in this country ?
Cause this is what it looks like. They can put the price they want : if you don't pay, you're stuck in a radius of 100ish km around your house

BoatMad

17 euros , PLUS a yet to be determined fast charge fee , that's nuts. Time to pile into the ecar Facebook page and register howls of protest.

The fast charger network , should simply be on a KWh unit basis.

Villain

The ESB Ecar Facebook page is now showing what happens when you fail to communicate and vacuum is created. But as usual with semi state bodies it's very unlikely anyone is actually responsible here.

heliguyheliguy

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories but this is either utter ignorance or a plot to kill ev's in Ireland. it is way to early / numbers are way to low for charging of any kind let alone this subscription bullsxxt. Where is tesla? we need Elon Musk in this fight.

thierry14

:-) That's unbelievable

All Ev owners at the mercy of the Esb who's profits were up 23% last year.

That's just greddy.

The likes of topaz, texaco, tesco etc might set up there own electric charging network now on site and join in the fleecing of Ev owners until they are extinct.

I am shocked, feel bad for all Ev owners and Mad Lad

heliguyheliguy

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1602716789969603/permalink/1615564008684881/

https://www.facebook.com/ESBecars/?fref=ts

I am in favour of paying for electricity because the current system promotes abuse because it's free but I believe a flat monthly charge will promote even more abuse as people get value for their monthly charge.

I don't use the public chargers much so I don't think it's fair I am locked into a monthly charge for the odd time I need the fast chargers.

I would pay a higher Kwh cost with no monthly charge and for those regular users they could pay a monthly charge and less per kwh.

I accept charging for free can't continue but the system needs to be fair.

Dexter1979

No person who drives a conventional ICE car has to pay upfront for fuel they may not use. Not every EV driver should be expected to do this either.

So here's how I see this working the best.

Per minute charge for the FCPs to stop people over staying. Per kWh price for the rest. You can vary these costs based on your plan. PAYG with higher rates for occasional users, monthly subscription with lower rates for the heavier users. Switch online with a few clicks.

It's similar to what FastNed have. They also have a higher monthly flat rate for the really heavy users which could also be considered.

Depending on the location of the FCP you could have ones with a per kWh price if they are at service stations. Places like Blanchardstown, Naas, Portlaoise, etc need a per minute rate to keep them free of campers.

I really hope ESB Ecars will think this through before alienating their customers even further and potentially killing or delaying the adoption of electric vehicles.

And on a personal note, I'm not against paying for my fuel. I welcome it but it will have to be fair.

DrPhilG

Just a thought, but do any of the EV hardcore early adapter types around here have any contacts within Renault or Nissan?

Surely they stand to lose out a lot more than individual owners like us if the ESB succeed in halting the EV revolution in it's tracks?

heliguyheliguy

Charging for charging will not benefit the uptake of ev's. If your only goal is to ensure there is a space available when you need one then go ahead support charging. But I ask what will you do when the service is abandoned due to lack of interest! where will you charge then? Big picture guys we need lots more free of charge evse's if the network is to grow and become a viable alternative.

Think bigger than yourself and you will benefit yourself and those around you.

pwurple

If this was the only model, then I'd say it is a failure off the blocks for several reasons:

1) Charging people for points which are blocked. Can you imagine the frustration levels of paying 17 euro a month for a point which always has a petrol/diesel car parked in it?
2) Visitors from outside the jurisdiction. How do they use it?
3) Abuse. Flat rate will cause people to drive off to their nearest charger and leave it there overnight rather than use their home charger.

I'd be open to a card which debits my account as I use it, or a card which I top up. But flat rate for what is currently available? No way.

Villain

So despite several people posting to their Facebook page and tweeting etc there has been no response from ESB Ecars, I called their number and the call center know as much as the users, nothing.

How an organisation can have such poor communication skills is beyond me. You can't even speak with them the call center can't transfer you and they never call back!

heliguyheliguy

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

Charging for charging will not benefit the uptake of ev's. If your only goal is to ensure there is a space available when you need one then go ahead support charging. But I ask what will you do when the service is abandoned due to lack of interest! where will you charge then? Big picture guys we need lots more free of charge evse's if the network is to grow and become a viable alternative.

Think bigger than yourself and you will benefit yourself and those around you.

Billing for electricity used will encourage more people to charge at home freeing up the chargers.

Flat rate will encourage abuse just like free usage already does.

Electric car sales in Ireland are nothing, they are 0.4% of the market or something like that. Petrol and diesel is too cheap and people are willing to throw money into the tank and because it doesn't arrive as a few hundred 2 monthly bill like the electric or Gas bill, it gets forgotten about.

nokia69

I really thought the ESB would be clever with this and run the network at break even or just a small profit, that way they support EV sales and make the money on home charging

looks like I was a fool, this is Ireland nothing really changes

If there are currently 1000 users in ireland and everybody pays 16.99 a month that's €200000 a year for the standing charges. That will buy two rapid chargers a year to replace broken ones.

Doesn't sound a lot tbh.

Villain

samih wrote: »

If there are currently 1000 users in ireland and everybody pays 16.99 a month that's €200000 a year for the standing charges. That will buy two rapid chargers a year to replace broken ones.

Doesn't sound a lot tbh.

You are assuming all will play, I don't think I will.

You also aren't looking at how it will impact the future sales and growth.

stesaurus

samih wrote: »

If there are currently 1000 users in ireland and everybody pays 16.99 a month that's €200000 a year for the standing charges. That will buy two rapid chargers a year to replace broken ones.

Doesn't sound a lot tbh.

It's not the overall price that's wrong. I think most people would be happy to pay over €200 per year. It's the way it's structured that's wrong. It will reward people who hog the chargers and punish those that use it infrequently.
Nobody will be able to manage without fast charging at some point so it's not like we'd have a choice, it's really punitive.
Just put a per kw charge on them and be done with it. It's so simple but they are really making a mess of it.

Also this probably goes without saying but at the moment because it's free I'm happy enough with the service. If I was paying for it then they had better improve things a lot.
It takes ages to get through to report anything. Units are down for weeks on end and no way of knowing when they'll be back. Lack of realtime info, stupid app defaulting to poxy leaf chargers , so many things they need to get right if they want to start charging.

nokia69

samih wrote: »

If there are currently 1000 users in ireland and everybody pays 16.99 a month that's €200000 a year for the standing charges. That will buy two rapid chargers a year to replace broken ones.

Doesn't sound a lot tbh.

thats 1000 users today

there are better EVs on the way IMO if the ESB give people a fair deal on charging, EVs will slowly become a significant % of cars on the road, if that happens they will make plenty on the home charging, most of which happen at night and is perfect for the grid

they are being very short sighted

stesaurus

Villain wrote: »

You are assuming all will play, I don't think I will.

You also aren't looking at how it will impact the future sales and growth.

You will, you know you will. Unless you plan on keeping your car to a ~120km radius which is just silly.

Villain

s.welstead wrote: »

You will, you know you will. Unless you plan on keeping your car to a ~120km radius which is just silly.

Well I have it a year with 15,000km done and 99% of that was done from home charging.

stesaurus

Villain wrote: »

Well I have it a year with 15,000km done and 99% of that was done from home charging.

Are you trying to avoid public charging for some reason? Seems odd.

Anyway the 1% was that any kind of emergency or otherwise avoidable?

Villain

s.welstead wrote: »

Are you trying to avoid public charging for some reason? Seems odd.

Anyway the 1% was that any kind of emergency or otherwise avoidable?

No I just charge each night at home on night rate, daily commute is under 50km and wife has a diesel car for longer journeys, the 1% was to try it out or grab free charge while bored.

BoatMad

Villain wrote: »

No I just charge each night at home on night rate, daily commute is under 50km and wife has a diesel car for longer journeys, the 1% was to try it out or grab free charge while bored.

The ESB knows that virtually every EV will sign up. It's a captive market and they are gouging it.

It's that simple

Villain

BoatMad wrote: »

The ESB knows that virtually every EV will sign up. It's a captive market and they are gouging it.

It's that simple

Or killing the market before it gets going......

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

The ESB knows that virtually every EV will sign up. It's a captive market and they are gouging it.

It's that simple

not really

BMW will be building millions of plug in hybrids in the next few years and they will sell very well in Ireland, but the owners will stay away from the public chargers to avoid the rip off fees, and its not just BMW, after the Diesel scandal I expect VW to go down the same route

then there is the next gen electrics, my plan is to buy the Model 3 with a 200 mile range, I will never give the ESB a penny of my money if they try to rip me off

as range increases the need for public chargers gets smaller

heliguyheliguy

Villain wrote: »

No I just charge each night at home on night rate, daily commute is under 50km and wife has a diesel car for longer journeys, the 1% was to try it out or grab free charge while bored.

I'm the same, daily commute is within range, And street parking fees in dublin are outrageous, so it works out way easier and cheaper to just charge at home.
I most likely will not be signing up to pay for a service I might use and would have the added parking fee €2.90 \ hour + €200 per year and what ever rate they decide to charge per unit, the whole thing is a bit rip off Ireland.
But when ev users are asking for charging what are u gonna do.

An example of an exception is I need to go to Dundalk from Dublin this week so topping up while in Dublin would make sense but its just a hassle so I will most likely pop home for the ice car and head to Dundalk in that. Consider that is without having to pay a fee for charging access.

BoatMad

Dear EV community, we are finalising details of our future payment plans and will be writing directly to each of our ESB ecars customers within the next week. Payment options for existing ESB ecars customers will not come into effect until April 2016.

Well it's official and agrees with the printed flyer.

Looks like we all going to be screwed

heliguyheliguy

I think the access card could be linked to your home account, so you pay your home provider at what ever rate you have with them, esb still gets the wholesale rate anyway so that should be enough for them. The consumer gets to choose their preferred provider (support renewable) or best rate whatever there thing is. New users get free access for a period and tourists get low cost (or free) short term access.

This would still encourage new sales.
No cost benefit to street charging prevents abuse.

heliguyheliguy

Well if there is only a thousand of us how hard would it be to organize a boycott.
If none or a very few sign up they could be forced to rethink.

Maybe we could set up a network of our own, using each others home chargers in the short term until the esb fold.
I have one in Navan if anyone wants a charge.

mr.dunkey

That flyer is not the official final prices .ESB will come out with a more definitive pay system better explained. Chill and wait for ESb proper payment system to be launched.

Villain

mr.dunkey wrote: »

That flyer is not the official final prices .ESB will come out with a more definitive pay system better explained. Chill and wait for ESb proper payment system to be launched.

How do you know?

DrPhilG

mr.dunkey wrote: »

That flyer is not the official final prices .ESB will come out with a more definitive pay system better explained. Chill and wait for ESb proper payment system to be launched.

If that flyer isn't official, then why has it been given to a dealer?

Has this all been one epic prank?

Sadly no. The statement by the ESB this evening matches up with that flyer in terms of the dates for commencement for current customers.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

You are assuming all will play, I don't think I will.

You also aren't looking at how it will impact the future sales and growth.

Having free charging has promoted abuse of the infrastructure because people are greedy and want to get as much of something free as they can and will charge at the fast chargers when they could otherwise charge at home taking up a charger for someone who needs it, this can't continue. All for the sake of less than 2 Euro's on night rate for a complete charge.

The ESB also need to make money from the whole project.

Atlantic Dawn

Looks like they just killed the electric car.

nokia69

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Looks like they just killed the electric car.

na, they have slowed it down a little but in the end electric will win

nokia69

nokia69 wrote: »

not really

BMW will be building millions of plug in hybrids in the next few years and they will sell very well in Ireland, but the owners will stay away from the public chargers to avoid the rip off fees, and its not just BMW, after the Diesel scandal I expect VW to go down the same route

then there is the next gen electrics, my plan is to buy the Model 3 with a 200 mile range, I will never give the ESB a penny of my money if they try to rip me off

as range increases the need for public chargers gets smaller

I don't think 17 Euro's PM is a rip off, especially for high mileage users it's a gift, only problem with a flat rate is it will encourage people to use them to get some of their monies worth. So we could have more of a problem with queuing than we do now. Billing per Kwh is the only really sensible move.

17 Euro's and it's still saving a lot of money over ICE.

You're quiet right that as range increases then need for the Public chargers decreases except they'll still be needed for long distance travelling, and those not allowed or not possible to have home charging will depend on the infrastructure entirely.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think 17 Euro's PM is a rip off, especially for high mileage users it's a gift, only problem with a flat rate is it will encourage people to use them to get some of their monies worth. So we could have more of a problem with queuing than we do now. Billing per Kwh is the only really sensible move.

17 Euro's and it's still saving a lot of money over ICE.

You're quiet right that as range increases then need for the Public chargers decreases except they'll still be needed for long distance travelling, and those not allowed or not possible to have home charging will depend on the infrastructure entirely.

Of course it's a rip off. 17 PLUS. A further FCP. Charge. It's a ripoff

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Looks like they just killed the electric car.

Seriously doubt it, 17 euro's PM for unlimited miles and unlimited Kwh ?

The uptake of electric cars in Ireland is pathetic anyway but maybe the 150-250 range electrics in 2018 might encourage a lot more.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

Seriously doubt it, 17 euro's PM for unlimited miles and unlimited Kwh ?

The uptake of electric cars in Ireland is pathetic anyway but maybe the 150-250 range electrics in 2018 might encourage a lot more.

Emmm I think you are mistaken, the €17 will only be for access once the program is fully implemented you will also have to pay for each kw

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Seriously doubt it, 17 euro's PM for unlimited miles and unlimited Kwh ?

I think you're missing the point.

Nobody is saying that it's just €17 for unlimited access. The alleged proposal is that €17 per month is just to access the network. You still have to pay for what you use on top of that.

Edit, Villain beat me to it.