Lowered vans (Caddy) CVRT

Ross95

Has anyone ever got a doe or cvrt on a van when it's lowered? I've a 2012 caddy with coilovers up front and axle flip on the rear. I had an 05 one with the same setup and the man doing the doe went ape and said the van shouldn't be on the road. CVRT isn't out until February but the effort of un-lowering and then lowering again!

Yogi81

I have a lowered 2009 Caddy and recently put it through the CVRT.
It passed on everything but they would not issue the cert until I got an assessors certification to say that my modifications were ok.
I have Seat Leon Cupra seats on Touran subframes, and lowered on Eibach pro kit front & back.

The seats were ok with the assessor as they are genuine VAGE parts, but I had to produce certification for the Eibach kit, which was thankfully available on line. The assessor cost €180 just to produce the cert, which is mad money, but it was cheaper than putting back in my stock suspension and sourcing original seats again.

Once I produced the cert to the CVRT centre they sent the disc out in the post.

It is basically all passing the buck, The test centre don't want to be responsible for the changes, they get an assessor to stand over it, who in turn covers his ass by manufacturer certification.

Youngblood.III

"It is basically all passing the buck, The test centre don't want to be responsible for the changes"

Why would a TEST centre be responsible for changes to the vehicle? The person making the changes should get it certified by a competent Engineer.

Yogi81

They would be signing off on the van, declaring that it is fit for use. Without paperwork, the test centre said they could be held accountable for it in the event of an accident or failure.

The insurance assessor provided the certification to cover it, so everyone was happy

Ross95

Thanks for the replies lads. Yep I was the same for my old van but the assessor would only sign off on the front not the rear flip and still had to give him €120 for it and put the rear end back to normal for the test.

I put mk4 gti seats in mine best thing I ever done to the van! 👠the standard seats are brutal.

Youngblood.III

Yogi81 wrote: »

They would be signing off on the van, declaring that it is fit for use.

Yes..but they are not responsible for certifying any changes to your vehicle. Their job is to check it complies and paperwork too.

Yogi81

Youngblood.III wrote: »

Yes..but they are not responsible for certifying any changes to your vehicle. Their job is to check it complies and paperwork too.

Which is why i needed to get a certificate.

Youngblood.III

Yogi81 wrote: »

Which is why i needed to get a certificate.

Yes...but you're saying the test centre is passing the buck...its not their job to "certify" changes to vehicles, it their job to certify the road worthiness of the vehicle.

JC01

Youngblood.III wrote: »

Yes...but you're saying the test centre is passing the buck...its not their job to "certify" changes to vehicles, it their job to certify the road worthiness of the vehicle.

Which they cannot do unless any modifications are "certified" by a qualified individual

selectamatic

Yogi81 wrote: »

I have a lowered 2009 Caddy and recently put it through the CVRT.
It passed on everything but they would not issue the cert until I got an assessors certification to say that my modifications were ok.
I have Seat Leon Cupra seats on Touran subframes, and lowered on Eibach pro kit front & back.

The seats were ok with the assessor as they are genuine VAGE parts, but I had to produce certification for the Eibach kit, which was thankfully available on line. The assessor cost €180 just to produce the cert, which is mad money, but it was cheaper than putting back in my stock suspension and sourcing original seats again.

Once I produced the cert to the CVRT centre they sent the disc out in the post.

It is basically all passing the buck, The test centre don't want to be responsible for the changes, they get an assessor to stand over it, who in turn covers his ass by manufacturer certification.

Was your caddy lowered by means of an axle flip at the back? I'm just curious as I love the look of lowered vans but the hastle of swapping axle setup a for the test always put me off. Most of the people I knew with older style caddys had two axles their flipped one for using and then they'd swap in a standard setup for the test but I always seen it as more than it was worth

hi5

If you went in with a van that they've never seen before, how would they know what was stock and what wasn't, for instance an American or australian pickup.
They should know what's safe or not by just looking at it.

Rippy

If you have your back axle the right way round for the test , then flip it , surely the vehicle is not complying with the standards of roadworthyness required for the test . Wondering whether insurance company could refuse a claim on that basis ? Be careful!

thadg

what is it with people lowering vans.

the manufacturer spent millions designing them, why would you try to beat the maker

put it back to standard and enjoy the comfort

selectamatic

Ya if the flip isn't declared on insurance then your not covered same as any mid really, it's all down to whether the accessor will notice the mods but they'll definitely spot a flipped axle.
However Flipped axles aren't unsafe as long it's done correctly. all cars with rear leaf springs have the axle the top side of the springs it's just for vans the axle is normally on the bottom of the leaf spring as this increases ride height and aids in load bearing capacity.

5W30

thadg wrote: »

what is it with people lowering vans.

the manufacturer spent millions designing them, why would you try to beat the maker

put it back to standard and enjoy the comfort

The question is why would you lower a van or more importantly what do you do with a lowered van?

Is it because van insurance is cheaper than insuring a felt spec Passat?

selectamatic

thadg wrote: »

what is it with people lowering vans.

the manufacturer spent millions designing them, why would you try to beat the maker

put it back to standard and enjoy the comfort

You could say the same about cars but generally vans aren't too comfortable to start with so the difference isn't as bad. With regards to lowering it's all down to aesthetics and slightly increased road holding capabilities.

thadg

I have a caddy with nearly 7 years, It would be driven on most of the time, never had a problem with road holding with it.

I would have thought the sump would be the biggest problem in a standard one, not to mind a lowered 1

5W30

selectamatic wrote: »

You could say the same about cars but generally vans aren't too comfortable to start with so the difference isn't as bad. With regards to lowering it's all down to aesthetics and slightly increased road holding capabilities.

I'm sorry but slamming a car or van won't make it handle better. It will be even worse than stock.

I remember coming out of Mondello Park during the summer and a guy in front of me did a wheel spin out of Mondello in a slammed Civic.

You should see the pace he was doing to climb over the speed bumps. I was literally being slowed down in a 1.0 Yaris.

Now tell me, why would you go to the bother of dropping a B16 VTEC engine into a 1.4 Civic chassis and then lower it? I'm pretty sure the stock 1.4 Civic was faster before the dude messed with it.

Depends of course on how much lower the van is now though.

selectamatic

5W30 wrote: »

I'm sorry but slamming a car or van won't make it handle better. It will be even worse than stock.

I remember coming out of Mondello Park during the summer and a guy in front of me did a wheel spin out of Mondello in a slammed Civic.

You should see the pace he was doing to climb over the speed bumps. I was literally being slowed down in a 1.0 Yaris.

Now tell me, why would you go to the bother of dropping a B16 VTEC engine into a 1.4 Civic chassis and then lower it? I'm pretty sure the stock 1.4 Civic was faster before the dude messed with it.

Depends of course on how much lower the van is now though.

No one said anything about slamming or stancing, we're talking about lowering so probably a 50mm drop max. Civics share the same chassis so your point about the 1.4 vs 1.6 dohc vtec makes no sense obviously a civic that's slammed will be less useful day to day but it will still be fast on the right surface.
With regards to road holding a slight drop in ride height will improve this it's only when it's taken to extremes like the hellaflush era in America that the effects are negative.

JBokeh

I had a lifted land rover go through the test a few times with no questions asked, and the thing was shocking, the steering geometry got put out by the lift so the wheel wouldn't self centre. I'd to put different wheels on it because they poked out past the bodywork.

I've a caddy at the minute, it's slightly lowered, mapped with a gutted DPF, and clearly is used as a car not a van, and it got through the test without any problem. I'd suggest going through a slightly country centre rather than a one in the city, where they tend to be tighter on the paperwork

selectamatic

JBokeh wrote: »

I had a lifted land rover go through the test a few times with no questions asked, and the thing was shocking, the steering geometry got put out by the lift so the wheel wouldn't self centre. I'd to put different wheels on it because they poked out past the bodywork.

I've a caddy at the minute, it's slightly lowered, mapped with a gutted DPF, and clearly is used as a car not a van, and it got through the test without any problem. I'd suggest going through a slightly country centre rather than a one in the city, where they tend to be tighter on the paperwork

Has it a flipped rear axle though?
Or did you just get slightly shorter shocks for the back? From what I understand the leaf springs stop the shorter shocks from lowering the rear ride height by an noticeable amount hence why people go with the axle flip method.

Yogi81

This is a new regulation, according to the test centre.
I had put the same van with the same modifications through the test twice before with no issues at all.

My Caddy is only lowered 45mm, so not very much.
The reason I changed it is that my rear shocks were blown and the front was a bit soft. I decided to get the Eibach adaptor plates for the back, and Eibach front shocks and springs. Seeing that I was going to need to replace the standard stuff I decided to make it look a bit better as they sit high in standard setup and I don't carry anything heavy in it.

ianobrien

selectamatic wrote: »

....With regards to lowering it's all down to aesthetics and slightly increased road holding capabilities.

Don't make me laugh! Given the state of our roads, its more suspension travel you need to soak up the bumps. If the vehicle can soak up the bumps, you are maintaining more control over the tyre contact area with the road, increasing grip. A lowered vehicle on Irish roads doesn't have enough suspension travel, meaning you get a bouncy ride or the wheels not in full contact with the road (reducing grip). Lowering may work on French/Belgian/Spanish tarmac where the roads are billiard table smooth, but not where you need suspension travel.

Having driven a few lowered cars, most were horrid on the typical Irish R and L road. The ones that were bearable were only slightly lowered and had matching shocks.

Just think, why when the World Rally teams come to rally in Ireland on Irish Tarmac that they raise the car?

selectamatic

ianobrien wrote: »

Don't make me laugh! Given the state of our roads, its more suspension travel you need to soak up the bumps. If the vehicle can soak up the bumps, you are maintaining more control over the tyre contact area with the road, increasing grip. A lowered vehicle on Irish roads doesn't have enough suspension travel, meaning you get a bouncy ride or the wheels not in full contact with the road (reducing grip). Lowering may work on French/Belgian/Spanish tarmac where the roads are billiard table smooth, but not where you need suspension travel.

Having driven a few lowered cars, most were horrid on the typical Irish R and L road. The ones that were bearable were only slightly lowered and had matching shocks.

Just think, why when the World Rally teams come to rally in Ireland on Irish Tarmac that they raise the car?

You're debating which setup suits different road surfaces though not how a lowered suspension setup improves road holding. What I said was perfectly correct you just tried to twist it to suit your pointless counter argument. Ask anyone who knows any thing about cars and they'll tell you decreasing body roll increases road holding capabilities obviously this increase is affected by road surfaces but a slighter lower more rigid than factory setup is nearly always better, in fact I'd go so far as to say always better.
On rally cars yes they have suspension set ups to deal with the road conditions however these are fully adjustable in both rigidity and ride height and even at high settings they are generally lower than factory settings. The international rally driver raise their cars from what they had them set at in France and the likes they don't take the factory ride height and say oh I'll raise the car up even higher because I'm going to Ireland.
Go and stand beside Declan Gallaghers starlet, frank Kelly's escort or Donagh Kelly's focus and 9 times outta ten they'll be lower than standard cars even if they're rallying the bog roads of Sligo. Perhaps you're confusing Tarmac with forestry rally cars and yes some of them are higher than factory settings but if you're gonna try and say that all of Ireland's roads are akin to forestry tracks then I'm wasting my time responding to your post.
Further more if you're that much against lowered vehicles I fail to see why you were compelled to click on a thread about lowered vans, it's like someone who doesn't like violence sitting down to watch one of the Saw films.

Ross95

I lowered my van because I like the look of modified caddys and another benefit is it does handle a bit better (not my main reason for doing it, its a diesel van not a race car) around bends (less roll) especially if you upgrade wheels and tires. It doesn't bother me that it's lowered because I carry little if any weight 9 times out of 10 and I don't mind slowing down on bad roads to avoid pot holes because it is illegal to "rally" on public roads after all, but whatever your into, you'll be the first one to call us boy racers!

mullingar

I had to google "axle flipping", my god what a waste of time and effort and borderline dangerous as you are drastically limiting your suspension travel.



There is a much simpler option. Keep it standard.

selectamatic

To be fair most cars with leaf springs have the axle above the springs so it's not exactly dangerous when done right. It lowers suspension travel alright but it's not like it gets rid of it completely.

millington

Some criers on here :eek: god forbid someone doesn't conform with the norm

Anyway back on topic, I've seen flip axle vans pass tests many times but it's luck of the draw, some testers will pull you up on it but chance your arm!

selectamatic

Best thing to do is run the van through next February when it's testing time and if ya pass good and well and if they pull ya up you will probably have to get an engineers report to declare whether the mod is safe. I can't see them making you return it to standard if you get a report on it.

JBokeh

selectamatic wrote: »

Has it a flipped rear axle though?
Or did you just get slightly shorter shocks for the back? From what I understand the leaf springs stop the shorter shocks from lowering the rear ride height by an noticeable amount hence why people go with the axle flip method.

Yeah, it has a spring under axle conversion, with the plates to mount the leaf under the axle, and different shackles, I painted the whole lot with the hammerite/waxoyl aerosol when I did it, and it is pretty dirty so it doesn't look out of the ordinary.

Best put it through and see what they say, you'll get 3 weeks to sort it, which isn't so bad, worst thing about doing the job is you might have to bleed the brakes

ianobrien

selectamatic wrote: »

You're debating which setup suits different road surfaces though not how a lowered suspension setup improves road holding. What I said was perfectly correct you just tried to twist it to suit your pointless counter argument. Ask anyone who knows any thing about cars and they'll tell you decreasing body roll increases road holding capabilities obviously this increase is affected by road surfaces but a slighter lower more rigid than factory setup is nearly always better, in fact I'd go so far as to say always better.
On rally cars yes they have suspension set ups to deal with the road conditions however these are fully adjustable in both rigidity and ride height and even at high settings they are generally lower than factory settings. The international rally driver raise their cars from what they had them set at in France and the likes they don't take the factory ride height and say oh I'll raise the car up even higher because I'm going to Ireland.
Go and stand beside Declan Gallaghers starlet, frank Kelly's escort or Donagh Kelly's focus and 9 times outta ten they'll be lower than standard cars even if they're rallying the bog roads of Sligo. Perhaps you're confusing Tarmac with forestry rally cars and yes some of them are higher than factory settings but if you're gonna try and say that all of Ireland's roads are akin to forestry tracks then I'm wasting my time responding to your post.
Further more if you're that much against lowered vehicles I fail to see why you were compelled to click on a thread about lowered vans, it's like someone who doesn't like violence sitting down to watch one of the Saw films.

I had a big long reply written, including the amount of rear suspension travel in the rear of Escorts (5 inches in my road one against 8 to 10 in tarmac rally ones running 15" rear tubs). I had sill height comparisons for the rear of S11 Impreza's against road STI's but you know what, I deleted it. I've learned in my time in Motorsport that suspension travel is key and if you think reducing it on our crap roads improves things, we will just have to disagree.

It's the ignorance in "The Fast and the Spurious" generation that think lowering is automatically better that I was going against and pointing out the folly of reducing suspension travel.

selectamatic

But now you've moved onto talking about suspension travel whereas my point was about ride height and reducing body roll while indirectly lowering the vehicles center of gravity. You talk as if all irish roads are single lane bog roads with sharp crests however this isn't true, there's plenty of such roads about however the majority of everyday driving and the occasional hoon or spirited drive is done on double lane roads some may not have markings but their still not bog roads with ridiculous crests and potholes that'd buckle a steelie never mind an alloy. Everyone know's the need for extreme suspension travel in rally cars is due to the fact that going airborne or pretty close to it is a fact of rally life if ya want to win, hence the suspension need's to deal with the landing. This speed and need to go absolutely flat out over a sharp crest cannot be matched in every day life that's just madness, (and considering the op was about a lowered caddy it's all the more perplexing as to why you are bringing these points up). You went straight for 4wd Subaru's to try and prove a point on ride height however subaru's are generally always the highest riding cars in rallying however to say they all ride higher than factory subaru's isn't true (greater suspension travel yes however I never said anything about suspension travel). Subaru's along with all rally cars use extremely rigid arb's and struts to ensure body roll is kept under control the inclusion of full weld in roll cages also add's to the body's structural rigidity allowing the suspension to do the work whilst eliminating actual body flex. My point still stands that nearly all tarmac rally cars have ride heights below factory specifications sure they generally have more suspension travel however I never said they didn't that was you putting words in my mouth. In everyday cars which have normal suspension setups the use of slightly lower and more rigid springs coupled withe the slight drop in ride height reduces body roll which at the back of an unladen caddy can be very noticeable. If you're going to continue to argue that a slightly lower more rigid caddy isn't going to handle better than factory than it is I who will have to give up on this debate. Also appearing to try and take some sort of moral high ground is pretty hypocritical considering it was you in the first place who felt the need to shower the op with your unwanted knowledge in a post that offered nothing to the question posed by his original question. I also don't appreciate you insinuating I am a person who takes my understanding of vehicles from hollywood films I have an adept understanding of the mechanics of cars however since you seen me posting on a thread about a lowered caddy you assumed I'd be a person who drive's up and down the mainstreet of my local town playing dj cammy songs on the radio. Also most of the cars depicted in the fast and the furious were sheeted to ground with fiber glass bodykits rather than lowered, hows that for ignorance.
I can just accept that there are many motoring/car culture's and I'm perfectly fine leaving each to their own but you couldn't do that hence why we are having this prolonged debate that really offer's little to no help regarding the op.

Edit: I believe kygo is the music artist of choice nowadays.

J.pilkington

Cases such as where keltank DOE centre were successfully prosecuted for the 08 Navan bus crash and tighter regulations are the reasons the DOE centres are tightening up and giving no leeway on the regulations.

Special Circumstances

Jaysis... lowered leaf sprung caddy sparks war of words on how low is too low for ultimate handling and comparisons to performance cars.

There's no winner to be found here!

A caddy race series is probably the only way to solve this, if anyone could take it seriously.

5W30

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Jaysis... lowered leaf sprung caddy sparks war of words on how low is too low for ultimate handling and comparisons to performance cars.

There's no winner to be found here!

A caddy race series is probably the only way to solve this, if anyone could take it seriously.

All hope in humanity is lost. Why would anyone do this to a van I've no idea...











Better "road holding" my a$$. People who claim these cars have better road holding obviously haven't drove them over 40 km/h because otherwise they'd be driving sumpless.

Toyotafanboi

Personally, I just don't get why any young man would want to drive a car derived van type thing, but each to their own.

I'l probably be driving a van for the rest of my career and I see my youth as a great oppertunity to drive sone half exciting stuff. I'l always look back fondly on the likes of my Glanza, loaded with extras, 130bhp in something the weight of a biscuit tin that handled like a go cart.

Couldn't ever see myself looking back at a caddy and thinking 50+mpg, saved a fortune, no buttons on the dash, couldn't recline the seats, only needed to do the DMF once and enough room to carry a 3 piece suite :pac:

millington

All of the above Caddys look the part to me. I wouldn't buy one either way to be honest but I don't see whats so shocking about people doing them up a bit.

It's better looking than agri spec ones

5W30

millington wrote: »

All of the above Caddys look the part to me. I wouldn't buy one either way to be honest but I don't see whats so shocking about people doing them up a bit.

It's better looking than agri spec ones

It's as daft as slamming a motorbike really. A van is a van.

selectamatic

@5W30
Posting up pictures of vans that are literally left on the ground and most likely on airbags just proves that you haven't read anything I've written I already said in my first response to ya that such practices have a negative effect. But if you want to continue ignoring that be my guest.
Vans like the old caddies and partners handle terribly and borderline dangerously when un laden as the rear is designed to take weight rather than iron out lateral movement. Why some on here persist in saying that a slightly lower more rigid caddy won't handle better is just ignorance. The drop in question has always been minimal 40-50mm not stanced or hellaflush or whatever else it's called so posting up pictures relating to such practices is pointless.
A caddy will always have pretty poor handling characteristics due to its weight distribution however the fact remains that a slightly lower more rigid setup will be an improvement over the factory setup.

5W30

selectamatic wrote: »

@5W30
Posting up pictures of vans that are literally left on the ground and most likely on airbags just proves that you haven't read anything I've written I already said in my first response to ya that such practices have a negative effect.

Yeah exactly, being on airbags is still better than a flipped axle!!!

selectamatic wrote: »

Vans like the old caddies and partners handle terribly and borderline dangerously when un laden as the rear is designed to take weight rather than iron out lateral movement.

If you flip an axle it will still be ironing out lateral movement as there still is no weight.

selectamatic wrote: »

A caddy will always have pretty poor handling characteristics due to its weight distribution however the fact remains that a slightly lower more rigid setup will be an improvement will be better than the factory setup.

Once again, flipping an axle doesn't change the fact that the back is light

selectamatic

True it will always be light at the back again I never said it wouldn't be. But with a flipped axle and shorter shocks the rear body roll will be reduced and the overall rear suspension will be slightly more rigid this is what I've always said.

5W30

selectamatic wrote: »

True it will always be light at the back again I never said it wouldn't be. But with a flipped axle and shorter shocks the rear body roll will be reduced and the overall rear suspension will be slightly more rigid this is what I've always said.

Hang on a minute, but your argument is that the Caddy is dangerous because the bag is light with no load and there is no lateral movement.

If you flip the axle it will not improve lateral movement. If you claim your van is so rigid because it's unladen then there's no point lowering it because it's... rigid.

Toyotafanboi

but lowering it reduces the center of gravity, putting whatever weight the van has closer to the road, which will increase stability.

looking to increase stability in a caddy is probably about as useless as it sounds anyway. for when TDi kicks in and you just can't keep her between the ditches.

selectamatic

I said borderline dangerous not dangerous. And that was in relation to the body roll and high center of gravity which would encourage the light back end to lose grip in a sharp fast corner. Making the back slightly lower and slightly more rigid decreases this body roll, lowers the center of gravity and makes the van handle slightly better. No one ever said a caddy would be great in the corners but the mods I've alluded to will make them better than the factory settings and more stable.

Paddy@CIRL

I used to have a Caddy 2K, which I never really had to carry any significant weight in due to the nature of my work. Great vans, but the standard ride when carrying little to zero weight was pretty, um, interesting. It would dive significantly under braking and body roll was horrific. Cross winds were a nightmare too. But of course it was like this, it was a van.

However, I wanted to tighten it up so converted it to front coilovers with an adjustable rear kit that located the axle above the leaf springs. The difference was night and day, and tightened its road holding capabilities up no end. Never had issues with DOE or insurance at the time, everything was declared and done properly. By the time I sold it, it was a properly nice van to drive and it's continued like this to this day.

Just because it doesn't suit one person, doesn't mean it's not perfect for the next guy. Each to their own and all that.

Ross95

5W30 wrote:

All hope in humanity is lost. Why would anyone do this to a van I've no idea...

Those vans are all clearly show cars (or vans, whatever). They are on airbags and can be raised up for driving with a flick of a switch, the intention is not to improve handling it's aesthetics.

Toyotafanboi

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

I used to have a Caddy 2K, which I never really had to carry any significant weight in due to the nature of my work.

genuine question, would you not have been happier with a Golf, or even a Golf van, if you had no use for the load space?

Paddy@CIRL

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

genuine question, would you not have been happier with a Golf, or even a Golf van, if you had no use for the load space?

At the time, the Caddy was perfect for what I needed as I was starting out in business on my own. The rear was often full, but it just wasn't a heavy load. Over the years, I've learned to know what I need for any given job, so don't need to bring everything with me anymore.

That's why I bought a GTI this year.

Ross95

Toyotafanboi wrote:

Couldn't ever see myself looking back at a caddy and thinking 50+mpg, saved a fortune, no buttons on the dash, couldn't recline the seats, only needed to do the DMF once and enough room to carry a 3 piece suite

Don't worry mate I'm the same! I'm 20 so insurance is a problem at the minute but fingers crossed there's glanza's, evo's etc to come the van does get boring but I'd a 180sx track car to ease the pain! It's now sold and I'm trying to get something nippy for the road.

Paddy@CIRL

Ross95 wrote: »

Those vans are all clearly show cars (or vans, whatever). They are on airbags and can be raised up for driving with a flick of a switch, the intention is not to improve handling it's aesthetics.

It's probably worth pointing out that modern air suspension systems will out perform a comparable coil-over setup on track these days along with providing comfort on the road and adjustable ride height on the fly. Not just for looks anymore, although there are a lot of cheaper / old systems about still.

Ross95

@PADDYIRL lovely van mate my old one was the very same but in white, I actually seen that pic online before. I'd post one of mine but I'm a newbie and it won't let me.