Call yourself a Christian??

homer911

Whether for the topic or the animation, this is worth watching..

https://youtu.be/HChfCFT3GW0

Dont know if this will embed as an iframe..
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HChfCFT3GW0&quot; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HChfCFT3GW0

cattolico

Christianity is so watered down in Great Britain that you would be hard put to find 41,000,000 christians. the largest Christian group that attends church in Great Britain are Catholics. (Roman, Greek Catholic, Melkite, Anglican Ordinate).

brian_t

homer911 wrote: »

Whether for the topic or the animation, this is worth watching..

Fyp

La Fenetre

Nice video homer, more of this is needed on the forum, instead of some of the usual suspect posters using the forum to be as unchristian as possible about other christian denominations.

katydid

cattolico wrote: »

Christianity is so watered down in Great Britain that you would be hard put to find 41,000,000 christians. the largest Christian group that attends church in Great Britain are Catholics. (Roman, Greek Catholic, Melkite, Anglican Ordinate).

Er, Anglicans are Catholics too...


Watered down in what way? The Christian message is the Christian message, it doesn't change.

cattolico

katydid wrote: »

Er, Anglicans are Catholics too...


Watered down in what way? The Christian message is the Christian message, it doesn't change.

I was talking about the Anglican Ordinate in communion with Rome. The Catholic or Catholics are generallg understood as the church in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

katydid

cattolico wrote: »

I was talking about the Anglican Ordinate in communion with Rome. The Catholic or Catholics are generallg understood as the church in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

I know you were. But all Anglicans are Catholics, whatever is "generally understood".

Anyway, back to my original question...

Day Lewin

Those are "Christians" who try to follow Christ.

As far as I know, he didn't name any persuasions or denominations: only appealed to the followers to live as He would have wished, etc. To be like Him, as best they could. You could do worse.

cattolico

katydid wrote: »

I know you were. But all Anglicans are Catholics, whatever is "generally understood".

Anyway, back to my original question...

The Anglican church in England is dying. Of the 41 million anglicans in Great Britian, there is barely a million who go weekly to service and falling.

There are now about as many Catholics in GB that go to weekly mass as protestants, and Catholics are a minority.

Nothern Ireland is better, the bible belt.

katydid

cattolico wrote: »

The Anglican church in England is dying. Of the 41 million anglicans in Great Britian, there is barely a million who go weekly to mass and falling.

There are now about as many Catholics in GB that go to weekly mass as protestants, and Catholics are a minority.

Nothern Ireland is better, the bible belt.

You mean Roman Catholics. Catholics are not in a minority.

But yes, as the video says, the difference between those who claim to be Christians and those who are committed to attend church is huge.

That doesn't answer my question - what do you mean by "watered down"? How is the Christian message watered down?

cattolico

katydid wrote: »

You mean Roman Catholics. Catholics are not in a minority

No i don't mean Roman Catholics, you have the Anglican Ordinate which is not Roman, you also have greek Catholics from Ukraine and eastern europe, melikites, etc and others of the 24 churchs that form part of the Catholic church. However we are a minority, compared to the protestant anglican church ( the one which broke away from Rome )

cattolico

What does Christianity stand for in the UK? The new temples on a sunday are shopping centres. ( not that ireland is much better ) dozens of anglican churchs have been sold to be make into,houses, bars and even night clubs.

katydid

cattolico wrote: »

No i don't mean Roman Catholics, you have the Anglican Ordinate which is not Roman, you also have greek Catholics from Ukraine and eastern europe, melikites, etc and others of the 24 churchs that form part of the Catholic church. However we are a minority, compared to the protestant anglican church ( the one which broke away from Rome )

Ok, Roman Catholics, and the other you mentioned. But since all Anglicans are Catholic, I don't see where you're going with this. Connection with Rome is not the measure of Catholicism.

Catholics are in a majority. Numerically, at least.

katydid

cattolico wrote: »

What does Christianity stand for in the UK? The new temples on a sunday are shopping centres. ( not that ireland is much better ) dozens of anglican churchs have been sold to be make into,houses, bars and even night clubs.

And how does this mean that Christianity has been watered down?

ANY chance of an answer?

Kiwi in IE

Interesting video! So are we finally agreeing that the percentage of the Irish population who are truly RC, is closer to 30% than 84%?

Nick Park

katydid wrote: »

And how does this mean that Christianity has been watered down?

ANY chance of an answer?

I think it means quite the opposite. Nominal religion and cultural Christianity is certainly in decline. However, there is, in the UK, healthy growth among those congregations where a living faith is practiced and strong commitment to that faith is encouraged. The Anglican Church are actually heavily involved in, and in some cases have initiated, some of the best cross-denominational stuff that is going on in the UK (eg the 24/7 Prayer Movement, Alpha Courses, tens of thousands of youth attending Soul Survivor camps each year).

Christianity in the UK appears to be in a process of becoming more concentrated, rather than watered down.

Absolam

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Interesting video! So are we finally agreeing that the percentage of the Irish population who are truly RC, is closer to 30% than 84%?

I think the authors of the video are saying that in their opinion those 30% can, by God's grace, call themselves Christian

katydid

e

Nick Park wrote: »

I think it means quite the opposite. Nominal religion and cultural Christianity is certainly in decline. However, there is, in the UK, healthy growth among those congregations where a living faith is practiced and strong commitment to that faith is encouraged. The Anglican Church are actually heavily involved in, and in some cases have initiated, some of the best cross-denominational stuff that is going on in the UK (eg the 24/7 Prayer Movement, Alpha Courses, tens of thousands of youth attending Soul Survivor camps each year).

Christianity in the UK appears to be in a process of becoming more concentrated, rather than watered down.

My thoughts exactly. Which is good for those who are committed, but worrying in terms of what Christianity should be about, which is reaching out and spreading the Gospel. I've heard people talk about how it's better to have a smaller and more committed church, but I can't imagine that's what Jesus, who reached out to the marginalised and the stranger, would have wanted.

The traditional forms of Christianity suit some people, but they clearly don't suit everyone. Do wed give up and retrench, or search for a way to reach out?

My personal view is that those of us who are committed Christians should simply show by our personal lives and our attitude towards others that Christianity is about love and service. Of course, it's about more than that, but without going into the theological issues, that is the side we can show to those who are on the margins. We can lead by example and, most importantly, not be ashamed to be known as Christians.

frag420

cattolico wrote: »

What does Christianity stand for in the UK? The new temples on a sunday are shopping centres. ( not that ireland is much better ) dozens of anglican churchs have been sold to be make into,houses, bars and even night clubs.

So Christianity is measured by how many large buildings you own? Wow....how very.....Christian!?

Anyways what's wrong with buildings being sold of to be used in a different way? Why do Christians or indeed any religion need a building to pray in? Does God only listen when you are in a church? Were all my bed time prayers as a child ignored because I was not in a church when I prayed?

Nick Park

katydid wrote: »

e

My thoughts exactly. Which is good for those who are committed, but worrying in terms of what Christianity should be about, which is reaching out and spreading the Gospel. I've heard people talk about how it's better to have a smaller and more committed church, but I can't imagine that's what Jesus, who reached out to the marginalised and the stranger, would have wanted.

The traditional forms of Christianity suit some people, but they clearly don't suit everyone. Do wed give up and retrench, or search for a way to reach out?

My personal view is that those of us who are committed Christians should simply show by our personal lives and our attitude towards others that Christianity is about love and service. Of course, it's about more than that, but without going into the theological issues, that is the side we can show to those who are on the margins. We can lead by example and, most importantly, not be ashamed to be known as Christians.

Think of it this way, a smaller and more concentrated church may actually be much better placed to spread the Gospel, particularly to the poor and marginalised.

Watered down nominal Christianity has very little to offer anyone, and surely 'spreading the Gospel' refers more to a process by which people's lives are radically altered by the message of Christ than to simply adding more diluted nominals to the census?

katydid

Nick Park wrote: »

Think of it this way, a smaller and more concentrated church may actually be much better placed to spread the Gospel, particularly to the poor and marginalised.

Watered down nominal Christianity has very little to offer anyone, and surely 'spreading the Gospel' refers more to a process by which people's lives are radically altered by the message of Christ than to simply adding more diluted nominals to the census?

Yes, indeed, IF the more concentrated church is used for this purpose. But there is a danger, which I see often in church communities, of becoming so caught up in your own world of church matters, that you forget about the wider community and what the church should be doing.

There is a danger of a smugness, an "I'm alright Jack" attitude setting in, and one must be very careful of that.

katydid

frag420 wrote: »

So Christianity is measured by how many large buildings you own? Wow....how very.....Christian!?

Anyways what's wrong with buildings being sold of to be used in a different way? Why do Christians or indeed any religion need a building to pray in? Does God only listen when you are in a church? Were all my bed time prayers as a child ignored because I was not in a church when I prayed?

No, Christians don't NEED a church to pray in. But part of Christian worship is to assemble for prayer, and for that you need some sort of space. Of course, that space can be a sports hall or a big field; but part of putting one's mind in the right mindset for prayer is to be in a space that is relaxing, calm, beautiful, and reverential, and that is why, like other religions, such places have been built.

homer911

katydid wrote: »

No, Christians don't NEED a church to pray in. But part of Christian worship is to assemble for prayer, and for that you need some sort of space. Of course, that space can be a sports hall or a big field; but part of putting one's mind in the right mindset for prayer is to be in a space that is relaxing, calm, beautiful, and reverential, and that is why, like other religions, such places have been built.

Not to mention the building itself being a testament to the Christian faith. If all Christians met in sports halls or community centres to worship, would we have the same witness?

frag420

katydid wrote: »

No, Christians don't NEED a church to pray in. But part of Christian worship is to assemble for prayer, and for that you need some sort of space. Of course, that space can be a sports hall or a big field; but part of putting one's mind in the right mindset for prayer is to be in a space that is relaxing, calm, beautiful, and reverential, and that is why, like other religions, such places have been built.

Then surely instead of building massive stone churches that cost millions you could build a giant pre fabricated building with enough room for everyone to worship in peace and warmth. It could be in a qiute part of town, nicely decorated inside to make it beautiful(although I fail to see how this impacts anything, sounds like vanity to me)

Then the money saved which would be in the millions could go towards feeding the poor, housing homeless people!

Would you agree that this would be a very Christian thing to do or not?
Would you be happy to congregate in a prefab with enough room for worship if it meant someone less well of than you could be fed or get a roof over their head?

frag420

homer911 wrote: »

Not to mention the building itself being a testament to the Christian faith. If all Christians met in sports halls or community centres to worship, would we have the same witness?

So Christians need a church to prove their belief in Christianity? How about using the money used to build such monstrosities to feed the poor and house the homeless as a testament to your Christian faith?

Can God not hear you when you pray in a sports hall? I doubt the God I was told about when I was a kid would mind if you all gathered in a sports hall to pray to him. Surely its the getting together and praying to him that is the most important thing and not where you do it............right?

Nick Park

frag420 wrote: »

So Christians need a church to prove their belief in Christianity? How about using the money used to build such monstrosities to feed the poor and house the homeless as a testament to your Christian faith?

Can God not hear you when you pray in a sports hall? I doubt the God I was told about when I was a kid would mind if you all gathered in a sports hall to pray to him. Surely its the getting together and praying to him that is the most important thing and not where you do it............right?

A sports hall works for some churches, but not for others. A church is not just a gathering once a week. It is a community where there are often numerous activities taking place every day. For example, the church I lead needs not just a large space for worship on a Sunday, but also 6 or 7 other large rooms for the children and youth classes that run simultaneously with the worship. There is no community hall in our town with sufficient facilities - and even renting one of the current community halls 6 times a week for various activities would cost us more than what we spend on our own building.

Some church buildings are indeed monstrosities, but many are very attractive.

And as for feeding the poor and housing the homeless? It has been statistically demonstrated that the more people gather for worship in a religious community, the more generously they give to charities and the more they engage in community voluntary activities.

It's nice that you are feeling so exercised about the poor and homeless, but it seems peculiar that you want to use them as a stick to criticise the group of people who are actually doing most for them.

Nick Park

frag420 wrote: »

Then surely instead of building massive stone churches that cost millions you could build a giant pre fabricated building with enough room for everyone to worship in peace and warmth. It could be in a qiute part of town, nicely decorated inside to make it beautiful(although I fail to see how this impacts anything, sounds like vanity to me)

Then the money saved which would be in the millions could go towards feeding the poor, housing homeless people!

Would you agree that this would be a very Christian thing to do or not?
Would you be happy to congregate in a prefab with enough room for worship if it meant someone less well of than you could be fed or get a roof over their head?

The majority of stone church buildings in the UK and Ireland were built long ago. You would have to look very hard to find any of those things being built today.

The vast majority of buildings newly opened for churches to worship in (both in the UK and Ireland) are constructed cheaply using the same techniques as light industrial/warehouse units. Some are purpose built, but the majority are purchased second-hand or are leased. Very few churches want to overspend on a building. If prefab buildings were economically viable (we checked them out & they were too expensive for the size of our congregation) and if they were approved by the planners then I'm sure more churches would go that route.

frag420

Nick Park wrote: »

A sports hall works for some churches, but not for others. A church is not just a gathering once a week. It is a community where there are often numerous activities taking place every day. For example, the church I lead needs not just a large space for worship on a Sunday, but also 6 or 7 other large rooms for the children and youth classes that run simultaneously with the worship. There is no community hall in our town with sufficient facilities - and even renting one of the current community halls 6 times a week for various activities would cost us more than what we spend on our own building.

Some church buildings are indeed monstrosities, but many are very attractive.

And as for feeding the poor and housing the homeless? It has been statistically demonstrated that the more people gather for worship in a religious community, the more generously they give to charities and the more they engage in community voluntary activities.

It's nice that you are feeling so exercised about the poor and homeless, but it seems peculiar that you want to use them as a stick to criticise the group of people who are actually doing most for them.

Have you a link to the above part in bold?

I am not using them as a stick at all, I am just pointing out what I was led to believe Christianity is all about, helping others. Why you need a large building for this when there are cheaper and more affordable alternatives available is beyond me. Why not let homeless people sleep in the churches and use them for shelter when they are not in use?

Besides Jesus didn't live in a large house did he yet he managed to congregate his followers and help those less fortunate than him?

As a side I was walking into Kings Cross station in London a couple of months ago and there were a couple of Christian noise makers(not intended to offend but that's what they were doing) who were telling everyone via a microphone and speaker system how great it is to be Christian, why its important to follow the teaching of Jesus etc etc etc.

So when I questioned why they are happy to stand there shouting down a microphone while ten feet from them there was a homeless guy with no shoes, sitting on cold concrete, hungry and yet they would not help him!! I asked if they were Christians and they said they were but they were not willing to help this guy sitting beside them!!

Several days later outside of Kings Cross station I saw a bunch of people in their early twenties who were obviously into the dark side of life (I could tell from the emblems on their shirts,COS) and guess what...........they bought the guy a mcdonalds and one took spare clothers from their bag (pair of socks and a tshirt) and gave it to the homeless guy.

Those Church of Satan folks (I did confirm this with them, very well mannered too unlike the bat with the microphone) were more Christian than those claiming to be Christian and they did it through actions and not a microphone!!

hinault

cattolico wrote: »

The Anglican church in England is dying. Of the 41 million anglicans in Great Britian, there is barely a million who go weekly to service and falling.

There are now about as many Catholics in GB that go to weekly mass as protestants, and Catholics are a minority.

The Anglican Church appears to be in terminal decline.

Nick Park

frag420 wrote: »

Have you a link to the above part in bold?

I am not using them as a stick at all, I am just pointing out what I was led to believe Christianity is all about, helping others.

Such links have been posted on this forum in the past. But I'll gladly dig some out for you later today.

Christianity is not 'all about' helping people. That's a part of it, certainly, and if you travel in places like Africa you will see that Christians do more of it than anyone else. But Christianity is primarily about how people who are alienated from God can be reconciled to Him and remade in His image. Then, as a consequence of the changes that God makes in their lives, they should certainly do what they can to help others.

Why you need a large building for this when there are cheaper and more affordable alternatives available is beyond me.

As I've already pointed out to you, churches are not keen on spending money needlessly. In most cases they will certainly go for the cheapest option they can. In many cases, of course, older congregations are saddled with historic buildings that they already own which are hard to maintain, very difficult to sell, and where local authorities have listed the buildings so as to make any alterations prohibitive.

Why not let homeless people sleep in the churches and use them for shelter when they are not in use?

Because it is illegal to house homeless people in large empty spaces that have not been equipped for that purpose. Churches would get hauled through the courts if they did that. Accommodation for the homeless must meet a huge amount of health & safety standards.

Of course a number of churches do build purpose-built accommodation for the homeless. I became a Christian 35 years ago when I was homeless and was cared for by a church called the Salvation Army.

Besides Jesus didn't live in a large house did he yet he managed to congregate his followers and help those less fortunate than him?

Jesus was an itinerant rabbi - not the leader of an established church. However, we read in the Gospels that He once accepted a wasteful display of worship when a woman poured out a jar of extremely expensive perfume and anointed Him with it. One of His disciples, however, started cribbing about how much of a waste it was and how the poor should have been fed with it. That disciple was called Judas Iscariot.

As a side I was walking into Kings Cross station in London a couple of months ago and there were a couple of Christian noise makers(not intended to offend but that's what they were doing) who were telling everyone via a microphone and speaker system how great it is to be Christian, why its important to follow the teaching of Jesus etc etc etc.

So when I questioned why they are happy to stand there shouting down a microphone while ten feet from them there was a homeless guy with no shoes, sitting on cold concrete, hungry and yet they would not help him!! I asked if they were Christians and they said they were but they were not willing to help this guy sitting beside them!!

Several days later outside of Kings Cross station I saw a bunch of people in their early twenties who were obviously into the dark side of life (I could tell from the emblems on their shirts,COS) and guess what...........they bought the guy a mcdonalds and one took spare clothers from their bag (pair of socks and a tshirt) and gave it to the homeless guy.

Those Church of Satan folks (I did confirm this with them, very well mannered too unlike the bat with the microphone) were more Christian than those claiming to be Christian and they did it through actions and not a microphone!!

So, you want links from me to back up my statement about regular worshippers giving more than average to charities etc, but you are happy to make sweeping judgments about millions of Christians based on what you saw a couple of guys doing outside a train station?

Kiwi in IE

hinault wrote: »

The Anglican Church appears to be in terminal decline.

I think it's more that they have conceded their influence and power over society far more gracefully than the RCC, in most countries where they were dominant. Nowhere in the countries where the Anglican church held power in the past do families have to preform Anglican rituals from their childrens birth to ensure that a state funded education will be available.

I find in general that the Anglican denomination is far less intrusive into the affairs of non Anglicans, more socially progressive and more dignified in general than the RCC. They don't appear to be nearly as interested as enforcing their doctrine on the general population, as the RCC.

frag420

Nick Park wrote: »

Such links have been posted on this forum in the past. But I'll gladly dig some out for you later today.

Christianity is not 'all about' helping people. That's a part of it, certainly, and if you travel in places like Africa you will see that Christians do more of it than anyone else. But Christianity is primarily about how people who are alienated from God can be reconciled to Him and remade in His image. Then, as a consequence of the changes that God makes in their lives, they should certainly do what they can to help others.



As I've already pointed out to you, churches are not keen on spending money needlessly. In most cases they will certainly go for the cheapest option they can. In many cases, of course, older congregations are saddled with historic buildings that they already own which are hard to maintain, very difficult to sell, and where local authorities have listed the buildings so as to make any alterations prohibitive.

Well according to your Christian friend above they are being sold and turned into houses, pubs, nightclubs etc??


Because it is illegal to house homeless people in large empty spaces that have not been equipped for that purpose. Churches would get hauled through the courts if they did that. Accommodation for the homeless must meet a huge amount of health & safety standards.

Of course a number of churches do build purpose-built accommodation for the homeless. I became a Christian 35 years ago when I was homeless and was cared for by a church called the Salvation Army.


Jesus was an itinerant rabbi - not the leader of an established church. However, we read in the Gospels that He once accepted a wasteful display of worship when a woman poured out a jar of extremely expensive perfume and anointed Him with it. One of His disciples, however, started cribbing about how much of a waste it was and how the poor should have been fed with it. That disciple was called Judas Iscariot.



So, you want links from me to back up my statement about regular worshippers giving more than average to charities etc, but you are happy to make sweeping judgments about millions of Christians based on what you saw a couple of guys doing outside a train station?

Well I cant exactly post a link to what i saw can I? I passed judgement on the two people claiming to be Christians yet not being very Christian to there fellow human? I know there are many Christians out there who are good people but also many that are not.
If you look at it this way there were two Christians outside the station and two members of the Church of Satan and it wasn't the Christians that were showing Christian values!!

Curious to know if these two guys came up to you and offered to help you feed the poor and do good Christian things (things that are just nice things to do for others that Christianity claims to be Christian actions, (I dont know when or how Christianity got the monopoly on treating others well). Would you stand side by side with them to help others?

Nick Park

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/new.research.suggests.religious.people.are.more.generous/37949.htm

https://philanthropy.com/article/Muslims-Rank-as-Most-Generous/220057

https://philanthropy.com/article/Religious-Americans-Give-More/153973

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/what-canadians-give-how-charity-depends-on-where-you-live/article16065426/

http://www.theage.com.au/it-pro/gods-truth-believers-are-nicer-20110908-1jzrl

https://www.aei.org/publication/a-nation-of-givers/

I didn't cherrypick these links. They reflect a consistent trend in such research. Interestingly, the correlation between religious worship and charitable giving works across the board with different religions. It is not the variety of religion practiced, but rather the frequency with which people gather for public worship. Even atheists who attend worship (eg they may accompany a believing spouse to church) give more than atheists who never attend worship.

And, even more interestingly, it is not just a case of religious people giving to religious charities. Religious people tend to give more to non-religious charities than do the rest of the population.

These enormous differences are not a simple artifact of religious people giving to their churches. Religious people are more charitable with secular causes, too. For example, in 2000, religious people were 10 percentage points more likely than secularists to give money to explicitly nonreligious charities, and 21 points more likely to volunteer. The value of the average religious household’s gifts to nonreligious charities was 14 percent higher than that of the average secular household, even after correcting for income differences.

Religious people were also far more likely than secularists to give in informal, nonreligious ways. For example, in 2000, people belonging to religious congregations gave 46 percent more money to family and friends than people who did not belong. In 2002, religious people were far more likely to donate blood than secularists, to give food or money to a homeless person, and even to return change mistakenly given them by a cashier.

katydid

homer911 wrote: »

Not to mention the building itself being a testament to the Christian faith. If all Christians met in sports halls or community centres to worship, would we have the same witness?

Why wouldn't we?

katydid

frag420 wrote: »

Then surely instead of building massive stone churches that cost millions you could build a giant pre fabricated building with enough room for everyone to worship in peace and warmth. It could be in a qiute part of town, nicely decorated inside to make it beautiful(although I fail to see how this impacts anything, sounds like vanity to me)

Then the money saved which would be in the millions could go towards feeding the poor, housing homeless people!

Would you agree that this would be a very Christian thing to do or not?
Would you be happy to congregate in a prefab with enough room for worship if it meant someone less well of than you could be fed or get a roof over their head?

I'm not sure if a pre-fab would be the way to go; they are not exactly cost effective in terms of lifetime and durability. (I know, I teach in them every day). But certainly there is no need for massive cathedrals of the kind that were built in the past. If we build a worship space now, it should double as a space for other activities, while respecting its primary function.

But you are surely not suggesting we knock down the beautiful
buildings we already have?

Nick Park

frag420 wrote: »

Curious to know if these two guys came up to you and offered to help you feed the poor and do good Christian things (things that are just nice things to do for others that Christianity claims to be Christian actions, (I dont know when or how Christianity got the monopoly on treating others well). Would you stand side by side with them to help others?

Absolutely. Anyone who wants to help others should be encouraged.

Btw, who here has said Christians have got the monopoly on treating others well?

Well according to your Christian friend above they are being sold and turned into houses, pubs, nightclubs etc??

Yes, which proves my point. You can pick up a disused church building very cheaply, which is why many businesses buy them rather than spending more to build a purpose-built nightclub.

Church buildings are usually sold when the congregation has closed its doors. It would be quite rare for a church to sell a traditional church building and move to a modern construction. The old buildings are difficult to sell in the sense that you get very little for them, certainly not enough to build something else in its place.

The only cases I know of where a church sells a traditional building and builds something modern are where the church is growing rapidly and needs a much bigger space. In that case they have to bite the financial bullet, sell the old building cheaply, and spend a lot more on a light industrial/warehouse type of shell.

katydid

hinault wrote: »

The Anglican Church appears to be in terminal decline.

Not in Ireland it's not. There is a steady trickle coming over from Roman Catholicism, and a very healthy stream of volunteers to the ministry, both stipendiary and non stipendiary.

All churches suffer from a decline in actual church attendance, but that is not necessarily the measure of a church.

The problem with the Anglican church in England is its anachronistic role as the established church, with the nonsense of its bishops in the House of Lords etc. This has alienated a lot of people.

But terminal decline? Certainly not.

homer911

frag420 wrote: »

So Christians need a church to prove their belief in Christianity? How about using the money used to build such monstrosities to feed the poor and house the homeless as a testament to your Christian faith?

Can God not hear you when you pray in a sports hall? I doubt the God I was told about when I was a kid would mind if you all gathered in a sports hall to pray to him. Surely its the getting together and praying to him that is the most important thing and not where you do it............right?

Thats a complete twist on what I was referring to. The reference was to Christian Witness - ie the physical presense of a dedicated building. I know plenty of churches that meet in community buildings or schools or sports halls, but if I was simply passing by them, I would have no idea they existed

frag420

homer911 wrote: »

Thats a complete twist on what I was referring to. The reference was to Christian Witness - ie the physical presense of a dedicated building. I know plenty of churches that meet in community buildings or schools or sports halls, but if I was simply passing by them, I would have no idea they existed

The Physical presence of a sports hall is not witness enough? I'm sure that if you were a contributing member of the Christian community in your town then you would be aware of where worship was happening? Surely its important t keep members abreast of where worship is taking place? And if you were visiting another town this is something you could research prior, same as if you were looking for a place to stay or eat when on hols? You would do research right?

cattolico

katydid wrote: »

Not in Ireland it's not. There is a steady trickle coming over from Roman Catholicism,

We also have the steady trickle from the anglican church to the Anglican church in communion with Rome . infact 40 churchs. As a famous anglican convert once said “To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant.”

katydid

cattolico wrote: »

We also have the steady trickle from the anglican church to the Anglican church in communion with Rome . infact 40 churchs. As a famous anglican convert once said “To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant.”

Probably a trickle in all directions. As far as I know, there is no such Anglican church in Ireland, it seems to be an English thing. All I know is the evidence of my own eyes; the many people I know who used to be RC and are now CofI.

I have no idea what that "famous Anglican convert" means, but I'm sure he/she thought they knew what they meant :-)

cattolico

katydid wrote: »

Probably a trickle in all directions. As far as I know, there is no such Anglican church in Ireland, it seems to be an English thing. All I know is the evidence of my own eyes; the many people I know who used to be RC and are now CofI.

I have no idea what that "famous Anglican convert" means, but I'm sure he/she thought they knew what they meant :-)

The covert was Cardinal Newman. Sorry if the post came across with a tinge of proselytism. There are lots of COI in my family so I have nothing against them.

katydid

cattolico wrote: »

The covert was Cardinal Newman. Sorry if the post came across with a tinge of proselytism. There are lots of COI in my family so I have nothing against them.

No problem. :-)

It sounds like one of those quotes that sounds deep, but means little...

cattolico

katydid wrote: »

No problem. :-)

It sounds like one of those quotes that sounds deep, but means little...

John Henry Newman was one of the greatest anglicans.

hinault

cattolico wrote: »

We also have the steady trickle from the anglican church to the Anglican church in communion with Rome . infact 40 churchs. As a famous anglican convert once said “To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant.”

That's true.

The fact that these people have come home should be a reason for rejoicing.;)

cattolico

hinault wrote: »

That's true.

The fact that these people have come home should be a reason for rejoicing.;)

No, there has to be an end to Christian rivalry. Katy is right when she says she is Catholic. We just need to find a path to unity with prayer

katydid

cattolico wrote: »

John Henry Newman was one of the greatest anglicans.

At the end of the day, there is little separating Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism. I was Roman Catholic, I am now Anglican, and I find the latter more rewarding, in that it respects the individual (of both genders) in terms of belief, governance and conscience in a way that is impossible in the RC church. But most of my relatives and friends are RC, and I fully respect their decision to stay in the church, even though it baffles me in some cases. Liturgically and doctrinally we are closer than we think.

cattolico

katydid wrote: »

At the end of the day, there is little separating Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism. I was Roman Catholic, I am now Anglican, and I find the latter more rewarding, in that it respects the individual (of both genders) in terms of belief, governance and conscience in a way that is impossible in the RC church. But most of my relatives and friends are RC, and I fully respect their decision to stay in the church, even though it baffles me in some cases. Liturgically and doctrinally we are closer than we think.

I think if there were a great council of the church's it would not sort the divide that exists. Certain decisions made by the anglican communion pushed them away from say the Orthodox Church.

At the end of the day we need to pray and believe.

hinault

cattolico wrote: »

No, there has to be an end to Christian rivalry. Katy is right when she says she is Catholic. We just need to find a path to unity with prayer

The "rivalry" is on the part of those who refuse to be part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Those who have exited the Anglican church and have been admitted in to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, have returned home.

katydid

cattolico wrote: »

I think if there were a great council of the church's it would not sort the divide that exists. Certain decisions made by the anglican communion pushed them away from say the Orthodox Church.

At the end of the day we need to pray and believe.

Yes, there are fundamentals that will always divide us, as long as some Christian churches continue to deny women equality, or the laity a proper say in the governance of their churches. But if we can only focus on what unites us, it would be better for the Christian church as a whole.

katydid

hinault wrote: »

The "rivalry" is on the part of those who refuse to be part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Those who have exited the Anglican church and have been admitted in to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, have returned home.

We are ALL part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We remind ourselves of this when we say the Nicene Creed. Why are you so unfriendly and exclusionist towards your Christian brethren?