Catholic schools and baptism

Irish Stones

First of all I need to tell you that I'm not Irish and I read Boards.ie from Italy. Because I love your country a lot I tend to read about Ireland as much as possible.
Today I found this article
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/hundreds-protest-over-religious-discrimination-in-schools-1.2405491
and I have read something that is new to me, so I would like to ask you if a kid needs to be baptised in order to be accepted in a Catholic school. I mean, do you have to produce a certificate to prove that at the moment of application?
Thanks for clearing that for me.

ted1

Irish Stones wrote: »

First of all I need to tell you that I'm not Irish and I read Boards.ie from Italy. Because I love your country a lot I tend to read about Ireland as much as possible.
Today I found this article
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/hundreds-protest-over-religious-discrimination-in-schools-1.2405491
and I have read something that is new to me, so I would like to ask you if a kid needs to be baptised in order to be accepted in a Catholic school. I mean, do you have to produce a certificate to prove that at the moment of application?
Thanks for clearing that for me.

The article is a bit flawed. There is a big problem with regards supply and demand, many people can't get in to the school they want because they applied to late. Realistically if you don't have your child's name down for a school by the time that they are 6 months you more than likely won't get a place regardless of Religion.

The article doesn't state at what stage they applied for the schools

wmpdd3

My kids are not baptised and they attend a catholic school, it's only if the school is over subscribed that the school can discriminate on beliefs.

We had no issues and had a choice of schools.

lonestargirl

ted1 wrote: »

The article is a bit flawed. There is a big problem with regards supply and demand, many people can't get in to the school they want because they applied to late. Realistically if you don't have your child's name down for a school by the time that they are 6 months you more than likely won't get a place regardless of Religion.

The article doesn't state at what stage they applied for the schools

But even if you put your child's name down the day they are born children who are baptised may go above them in the enrolment priority, even someone who puts their child's name down the name before enrolment closes. Many Dublin schools are in this situation and it means no non-Catholic children get a place. My son's school had 300'applications for 60 places and they only made it to the 3rd category in their enrollment policy.

Irish Stones

ted1 wrote: »

Realistically if you don't have your child's name down for a school by the time that they are 6 months you more than likely won't get a place regardless of Religion.

So the problem is that there are no enough schools for the population being?
It sounds you have to be quick in this decision.
We use to apply for a school some months before the kids need to start. So, the age for primary school is 6 years over here, at the age of 5 their parents start looking around.

wmpdd3 wrote: »

My kids are not baptised and they attend a catholic school, it's only if the school is over subscribed that the school can discriminate on beliefs.
We had no issues and had a choice of schools.

Thank you!

Irish Stones

lonestargirl wrote: »

But even if you put your child's name down the day they are born children who are baptised may go above them in the enrolment priority

So you have to produce a baptism certificate at the subscription?

zeffabelli

Irish Stones wrote: »

So you have to produce a baptism certificate at the subscription?

I have always been asked to produce one.

lonestargirl

Irish Stones wrote: »

So you have to produce a baptism certificate at the subscription?

Yes

Gatling

Irish Stones wrote: »

So the problem is that there are no enough schools for the population being?
It sounds you have to be quick in this decision.
We use to apply for a school some months before the kids need to start. So, the age for primary school is 6 years over here, at the age of 5 their parents start looking around.

Thank you!

A lot of parents will have their child's name down from birth at their preferred schools here

ted1

zeffabelli wrote: »

I have always been asked to produce one.

We never been asked to produce one. Oldest girl is in senior infants in a Gael Scoil got the one free place out of 60 because we applied the week she was born.
(30 places went to siblings , 19 went to sons/daughters of past pupils and 10 went to kids whose families speak Irish as there main language.)
Her sister just got accepted to start next September.

Irish Stones

ted1 wrote: »

We never been asked to produce one. Oldest girl is in senior infants in a Gael Scoil got the one free place out of 60 because we applied the week she was born.

Again you needed to apply quickly, and I reckon this is down to the fact that there fewer schools than necessary, isn't it?

nikkibikki

Gatling wrote:

A lot of parents will have their child's name down from birth at their preferred schools here

This depends on location. It is certainly the case in most of Dublin and most likey other large cities. In small towns and villages, it's the opposite problem, trying to keep the numbers up for fear they might loose a teacher. Enrolment usually only opens during the previous school year in these cases, not years in advance.

byhookorbycrook

Ours is a Catholic school and hugely oversubscribed but we do not use religion as an entry selection. The issue is not always a lack of school places, but a lack of places in popular schools.

pwurple

Depends on the school. We live in Cork, and we were moving house frequently from age of 2 - 4 with our daughter. We ended up putting her name down for 8 schools around Cork City as we didn't know where we would be living.


Admission policies were given to us. They generally went like this:
1)Siblings of children already attending
2)Children of the local area
3)Children of past-pupils
4)Everyone else

Two of the six also had religion as criteria in their admission policies, but it was the last one on the list, just before "everyone else". As it happens, neither of those schools were Catholic, they were minority faith.

The issue from my own experience is confined to some schools in very popular Dublin areas. The Irish Times is a Dublin-centric newspaper.

Moonbeam

in our case they went

1) siblings
2) 1st come 1st served


In our local school there were 47 siblings this year and 62 places. You need to have kids down as soon as you get a PPS number.
We have 3 other schools in the town 1 other is also over subscribed and again is 1st come 1st served.

In Ireland schools set their own enrollment policies so it is up to each individual school.

uck51js9zml2yt

I have mine in a Catholic school , we are non Catholic. Was told the only need for a baptismal cert was for communion which he won't be doing.
We have 10% non Catholics in the school.

I'm even on the board of management this year which should be interesting.

joss

It depends where you'll be living, Irish Stones.

We'd our non-baptised eldest down for 9 schools for 2015, inc. catholic (with siblings, catholics, then other religions first enrolment policies), methodist (methodist first), CoI (CoI first), and jewish (jewish first). Applications went in when he was 2 days old for most of them. Only offer was from an ET 6km away. We're last on the list for all of our local schools, so we're paying for another year of childcare and trying again for 2016. Which is why we were on that march.

lonestargirl

http://stjosephsterenure.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/School-Admission-and-Particpation-Policy.pdf

Just as an example this is the enrollment policy for one South Dublin school. All the Catholic categories go first and a baptismal cert is required for enrolment. (I don't have any personal involvement / attachment to this school I just know it is an area that it is difficult to get school places).

katydid

wmpdd3 wrote: »

My kids are not baptised and they attend a catholic school, it's only if the school is over subscribed that the school can discriminate on beliefs.

We had no issues and had a choice of schools.

But it's a matter of luck. You have no right to have your child attend the local school if it's Roman Catholic, they just allow you to because they have room.

pwurple

katydid wrote: »

But it's a matter of luck. You have no right to have your child attend the local school if it's Roman Catholic, they just allow you to because they have room.

That's not correct katydid. It only makes a difference if it's explicitly mentioned in the enrolment policy. In my experience in Cork, it was the RC schools who accepted everyone without enquiring about faith, and the other faiths who had it on the policy. But every school handles it differently. Policy is set by the school board of management.

Irish Stones

It seems that the most selective requirement for acceptance of a child in a school is the availability of places.
So my question is:
What if no school where you applied has a place for a child?

Bakemate

*Mod Snip* Please do not use this forum to promote your own business.

katydid

pwurple wrote: »

That's not correct katydid. It only makes a difference if it's explicitly mentioned in the enrolment policy. In my experience in Cork, it was the RC schools who accepted everyone without enquiring about faith, and the other faiths who had it on the policy. But every school handles it differently. Policy is set by the school board of management.

They don't need to have it on the enrollment policy if they are a RC school. It is clear that a RC child will not be turned away in favour of a non RC child.

Policy should be set by the Department and it should be that every child in the catchment area has an equal right to attend their local school, on a first come, first served basis, obviously.

Bakemate

Legally they do need to say it explicitly on their enrolment policy that they favour RC children even if it's an RC school. The odd school won't discriminate based on religion even if it's religious. If you knew your child was refused a place because they weren't RC and the school didn't have it on their enrolment policy then you could appeal the decision.

Irish Stones

I presume you can apply to a National school as well.
Or have they the same issues of over subscribing?
If you can easier apply to National schools, what makes people decide to enroll their children to a school with such selective requirements?
Please excuse my dumb questions, but I am here to understand a school system that's not mine.

Bakemate

National schools are state funded primary schools which covers 99% of all schools in Ireland. A few are fee paying primary schools.
All schools have enrolment policies, but 96% of national schools are Catholic and the vast majority of them will have enrolment policies that favour Catholics, even though half the Irish population no longer considers themselves Catholic. So we have a situation where a lot of parents feel they have to get their child baptised in order for them to attend the local school which they are paying for through their taxes and so the problem is perpetuated.
If you don't live in a city, the chances are your local school won't be oversubscribed and the school will have to take you, because they must take all applicants regardless of their religion, if they are not over subscribed. As a result, the problem is mostly limited to cities.
The issue needs to be legislated for in order for it to change, but politicians don't want to touch such a contentious issue and definitely not so close to an election!

katydid

Irish Stones wrote: »

I presume you can apply to a National school as well.
Or have they the same issues of over subscribing?
If you can easier apply to National schools, what makes people decide to enroll their children to a school with such selective requirements?
Please excuse my dumb questions, but I am here to understand a school system that's not mine.

Most primary schools, unless they are private, fall under the National School description. It's a contradiction in terms, national schools funded by the state, who are allowed to discriminate in terms of religion, but that's Ireland for you...

Irish Stones

Thanks so much!
Everything is getting clearer to me. I don't think I will ever need to face such a situation, but I like to understand as much as I can about my favourite country
I guess that kindness isn't subject of teaching in your schools. You are all so kind by nature, I know that!

ted1

Bakemate wrote: »

National schools are state funded primary schools which covers 99% of all schools in Ireland. A few are fee paying primary schools.
All schools have enrolment policies, but 96% of national schools are Catholic and the vast majority of them will have enrolment policies that favour Catholics, even though half the Irish population no longer considers themselves Catholic.

That's a rubbish statement, 84% of people consider themselves and identify themselves as Catholics.
http://www.cso.ie/en/newsandevents/pressreleases/2014pressreleases/pressreleasecensus2011irelandandnorthernireland/

Bakemate

I stand corrected, although your link refers to both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. I had read a number of articles that referred to an increase of 45% of people saying they had no religion, which of course is not the same as 45% having no religion. Please excuse my bad memory!
http://www.thejournal.ie/here-are-the-highlights-of-census-2011-400186-Mar2012/

katydid

Bakemate wrote: »

I stand corrected, although your link refers to both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. I had read a number of articles that referred to an increase of 45% of people saying they had no religion, which of course is not the same as 45% having no religion. Please excuse my bad memory!
http://www.thejournal.ie/here-are-the-highlights-of-census-2011-400186-Mar2012/

You're probably not too far off, though, in terms of the numbers of people who are active Roman Catholics. Many will say they are, and want their children to go to RC schools so they can be prepared for Communion and Confirmation, but don't go to mass, and have no intention of doing anything themselves to prepare their children. It's just a social event for them, for which the taxpayer pays.

ted1

katydid wrote: »

You're probably not too far off, though, in terms of the numbers of people who are active Roman Catholics. Many will say they are, and want their children to go to RC schools so they can be prepared for Communion and Confirmation, but don't go to mass, and have no intention of doing anything themselves to prepare their children. It's just a social event for them, for which the taxpayer pays.

How does the tax payer pay?

katydid

ted1 wrote: »

How does the tax payer pay?

We pay for the teachers who prepare them for the sacraments, preparation that should be done outside of school time.

I don't mean we pay for the bouncy castles and the fake tans...

ted1

katydid wrote: »

We pay for the teachers who prepare them for the sacraments, preparation that should be done outside of school time.

I don't mean we pay for the bouncy castles and the fake tans...

It's just when you said Social event which we pay for , you weren't to clear

Irish Stones

katydid wrote: »

Many will say they are, and want their children to go to RC schools so they can be prepared for Communion and Confirmation

Is this preparation done in RC schools only?
Over here, the preparation for Communion and Confirmation is done through the parish church, Children are sent to catechism classes which are held generally once a week, in the afternoon, outside school time, in a building belongng to the parish church. It takes two years for the preparation to be complete in both cases.

katydid

Irish Stones wrote: »

Is this preparation done in RC schools only?
Over here, the preparation for Communion and Confirmation is done through the parish church, Children are sent to catechism classes which are held generally once a week, in the afternoon, outside school time, in a building belongng to the parish church. It takes two years for the preparation to be complete in both cases.

Yes, the schools have complete responsibility for it, the parish plays no role at all, other than the priest calls to the school now and again to visit and see how things are going. Children who are not-Roman Catholic either have to sit in on these activities or exclude themselves.

pwurple

Irish Stones wrote: »

It seems that the most selective requirement for acceptance of a child in a school is the availability of places.
So my question is:
What if no school where you applied has a place for a child?

You will be offered a place somewhere, but it may not be of your choosing. You need to get agreement from the Dept of education to not send your child to school as far as I know.

One of the difficulties is that some vocal parents want a specific school and sometimes the reason deep down, is that they don't want their children mixing with poorer children. So all hell breaks loose when the school they are assigned is the "wrong" one, and out come the rants about religion being the barrier to their entry to the "good" school.

byhookorbycrook

katydid wrote: »

We pay for the teachers who prepare them for the sacraments, preparation that should be done outside of school time.

Actually, this isn't true, the RE programme was actually meant to be taught outside of school hours and was traditionally taken out of the lunch break. so technically the teacher was teaching the 30 mins per day on their own time .
The DES don't inspect religion,

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

^ is that included in the 'Croke Park' hours?

katydid

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Actually, this isn't true, the RE programme was actually meant to be taught outside of school hours and was traditionally taken out of the lunch break. so technically the teacher was teaching the 30 mins per day on their own time .
The DES don't inspect religion,

How could it be taken out of the lunch break, when teachers work a certain number of hours a day and have a lunch break? And teachers are not teaching it on a voluntary basis, it is part of their teaching duties.

The fact is, it is taught IN SCHOOL TIME, not before or after school hours. And is more than the 30 minutes a day; in the classes that prepare for the sacraments, it is certainly more than that at certain times of the year.

katydid

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

^ is that included in the 'Croke Park' hours?

You're not allowed do anything productive in CP hours...

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Actually, this isn't true, the RE programme was actually meant to be taught outside of school hours and was traditionally taken out of the lunch break. so technically the teacher was teaching the 30 mins per day on their own time .
The DES don't inspect religion,

Can teachers opt out of indoctrination if they're technically on their own time?

vicwatson

Think there is a duscussion about this topic on primetime tonight

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

You will be offered a place somewhere, but it may not be of your choosing. You need to get agreement from the Dept of education to not send your child to school as far as I know.

One of the difficulties is that some vocal parents want a specific school and sometimes the reason deep down, is that they don't want their children mixing with poorer children. So all hell breaks loose when the school they are assigned is the "wrong" one, and out come the rants about religion being the barrier to their entry to the "good" school.

Really? The rants I hear most are parents complaining that they sent their children to a gselscoil to avoid the foreigners and muttering about educate together being full of children who don't speak English.
I'm sure atheist Christian parents are happy they can access religious schools with relative ease and can be fine with indoctrination in an integrated curriculum but not all parents have the luxury of a buffet of schools to choose from. Its a new one on me that poverty stricken children is something parents wanting fairer school access are trying to avoid.

byhookorbycrook

[QUOTE=katydid;97590636]How could it be taken out of the lunch break, when teachers work a certain number of hours a day and have a lunch break? And teachers are not teaching it on a voluntary basis, it is part of their teaching duties.

The fact is, it is taught IN SCHOOL TIME, not before or after school hours. And is more than the 30 minutes a day; in the classes that prepare for the sacraments, it is certainly more than that at certain times of the year.[/QUOTE]
The original national schools were all non-denom (not even multi-denom) and religious instruction was undertaken outside of official school hours. It was traditionally taken from 12-12.30 so that children not involved could go home for lunch and no, teachers were not paid for giving up this 30 mins.

I think you will find that many teachers do NOT spend a full 30 mins per day on religion, due to curriculum overload.

lazygal

What about the integrated curriculum? Does that count for inspection purposes? In the context of rule 68 I mean, where religion is regarded as the most important subject children do in school.

katydid

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The original national schools were all non-denom (not even multi-denom) and religious instruction was undertaken outside of official school hours. It was traditionally taken from 12-12.30 so that children not involved could go home for lunch and no, teachers were not paid for giving up this 30 mins.

I think you will find that many teachers do NOT spend a full 30 mins per day on religion, due to curriculum overload.

It doesn't matter what the original idea was, the fact is now that the 30 mins is built up into the teachers' hours and the timetable, and that teachers are obliged to teach it as part of their contracted hours. It is not an after-school, voluntary activity for either teachers or pupils.

Some teachers may not spend the full 30 minutes every day, but as I said, in the years of preparation for the sacraments, they spend way over it. AND give up their own time in the evenings and the day of the event. They are expected to do this although they are not paid for it.

katydid

lazygal wrote: »

I'm sure atheist Christian parents are happy they can access religious schools with relative ease and can be fine with indoctrination .

What are "atheist Christians"?

Why would anyone be happy with indoctrination?

lazygal

Seems really strange that dept inspection wouldn't include what it regards as the most important subject children in national schools do!

lazygal

katydid wrote: »

What are "atheist Christians"?

Why would anyone be happy with indoctrination?

Pwurple has posted about her being an atheist Christian and her child attends a religious school and doesn't opt out of indoctrination, therefore I can only surmise she's happy with the indoctrination in that school for her child.

Atheist Christians do all the ceremonies of established Christian faiths but don't believe in the deity or some such.

katydid

lazygal wrote: »

Pwurple has posted about her being an atheist Christian and her child attends a religious school and doesn't opt out of indoctrination, therefore I can only surmise she's happy with the indoctrination in that school for her child.

Atheist Christians do all the ceremonies of established Christian faiths but don't believe in the deity or some such.

So basically, NOT a Christian.