Tax saver rip-off

jahalpin

I have had an annual tax saver ticket for the last few years and the price has increased steadily over this time

I have started in a new job and they only do monthly tax saver tickets, I was looking at the prices for the tickets and it appears that taxsaver.ie are severely overcharging for the monthly tickets

The weekly cap for a bus, rail and luas card is 40euro a week, which is 2080 a year, which is what tax saver.ie charge for the annual ticket, however they charge 2496 if you pay monthly

The full price of the ticket should really be the same or less then the cost of using a leap card for year yet they are getting away ripping off people like this as they have a monopoly on the issuing of tax saver tickets

efb

What? Annual tickets are always cheaper. Money up front for CIE

efb

Annual and monthly tax saver tickets are tax deductible so a saving of up to 49% on cost of ticket

jahalpin

The full cost of buying a ticket monthly should not exceed the cost of using a leap card to do the same journey, the tax savings are a concession given by the Revenue to the taxpayer and actually have nothing to do with CIE/RPA

If I was to use a cash leapcard, the maximum I would pay to CIE/RPA would be 2080 (spread over 52 weeks), probably less due to holidays etc., however, if I pay monthly they would receive 2496 for the same journeys. The amount of money that CIE/NRA receive from these tickets should not exceed 52 times the maximum capped fare

jahalpin

efb wrote: »

What? Annual tickets are always cheaper. Money up front for CIE

They should be cheaper but they are not, the annual tickets cost the same as 52 times the cap

efb

jahalpin wrote: »

They should be cheaper but they are not, the annual tickets cost the same as 52 times the cap

You get tax relief on the tax saver ticket, the saving is from Tax, not CIE- Hense tax saver

The ticket is deducted from your salary BEFORE tax is calculated

efb

I think Leap has to be the cheapest gross, as per legislation

efb

Anyway I'm only saving about 30% but I still think it's great

LXFlyer

The OP has a point.

Monthly and Annual tickets are supposed to offer a discount over paying cash or per transaction.

They were always priced to offer a discount.

The introduction of the tax saver scheme was supposed to offer an additional incentive to people to use public transport by the carrot of saving on tax and PRSI.

Not everyone can avail of the tax saver scheme, only those with employers who are prepared to take part in it.

The issue that I would have is that the monthly tickets for Dublin Bus and the combined Dublin Bus/LUAS/Irish Rail are all cheaper using a LEAP card weekly capping than using a period pass. Also, the annual combined bus/rail/LUAS ticket is the same price as using weekly LUAS capping.

That cannot be right - it is basically eroding the discount that the tickets offered.

The taxsaver element is supposed to be an additional encouragement to people to use the tickets - not the sole selling point.

And it does mean that the operators are taking their customers on a bit of a ride to be honest, pardon the pun.

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

I think Leap has to be the cheapest gross, as per legislation

Utter nonsense.

There is nothing in legislation about that.

efb

Taxesaver were only a tax saving, Hense the name!

Leap products are supposed to be cheapest At point of sale
Having one's cake and eating it...

efb

Sorry that is UK legislation!

But the point still remains, the saving in TaxSaver is the Tax element

efb

Why not use leap then?

efb

Leap was supposed to offer a discount over cash fares

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

Taxesaver were only a tax saving, Hense the name!

Leap products are supposed to be cheapest At point of sale
Having one's cake and eating it...

Hold on, forget about tax saver for a minute.

Monthly and annual tickets are supposed to offer the best discount - full stop.

Tax Saver is an additional incentive for the end user that can avail of it.

For people who cannot, the price they are paying has been inflated because of the price rises on the tickets.

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

Sorry that is UK legislation!

But the point still remains, the saving in TaxSaver is the Tax element

What legislation are you on about?

London has monthly and annual tickets that offer more discount than using pay-as-you-go Oyster.

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

Why not use leap then?

The OP is making the point that monthly and annual ticket prices have been artificially increased using the convenient smoke screen of taxsaver - that's not right as not everyone can avail of it.

efb

Where are they supposed to offer the best?

My understanding is TfI wanted people to move to paperless tickets so brought in fare capping to rival paper tickets

efb

lxflyer wrote: »

The OP is making the point that monthly and annual ticket prices have been artificially increased using the convenient smoke screen of taxsaver - that's not right as not everyone can avail of it.

Monthly an annual tickets have risen by the agreed % with or without TaxSaver

efb

lxflyer wrote: »

What legislation are you on about?

London has monthly and annual tickets that offer more discount than using pay-as-you-go Oyster.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-29919075

It came up this year when contactless proved cheaper fans. Oyster.

Weekly monthly tickets can be applied to Oyster cards also

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

Where are they supposed to offer the best?

My understanding is TfI wanted people to move to paperless tickets so brought in fare capping to rival paper tickets

Monthly and annual tickets have always been priced to offer a discount based on the principle that you are paying cash up front to the operator. They are getting the benefit of that cash for an extended period of time.

These tickets are also paperless as they are now all issued on LEAP cards.

I've no idea what point you are trying to make.

efb wrote: »

Monthly an annual tickets have risen by the agreed % with or without TaxSaver

Oh really? I think that you will find that the NTA have increased the price of monthly and annual tickets by a higher percentage than cash and LEAP fares in recent years, with the argument that people can save on tax.

Therefore those people who cannot avail of tax saver (and that's quite a lot of people) are being screwed as the discount that they received is now no longer available.

Spanish Eyes

I don't think TaxSaver applies to Leap. Does it?

So the only advantage appears to be the tax relief on a monthly or annual card where your employer partakes in the scheme.

I suppose those who cannot avail of Tax Relief will have to use LEAP.

But the monthly etc. tickets should have a fare advantage just the same whether or not you avail of tax relief.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I don't think TaxSaver applies to Leap. Does it?

So the only advantage appears to be the tax relief on a monthly or annual card where your employer partakes in the scheme.

I suppose those who cannot avail of Tax Relief will have to use LEAP.

But the monthly etc. tickets should have a fare advantage just the same whether or not you avail of tax relief.

The tax saver scheme applies only to monthly and annual tickets.

Stheno

From the OP

The weekly cap for a bus, rail and luas card is 40euro a week, which is 2080 a year, which is what tax saver.ie charge for the annual ticket, however they charge 2496 if you pay monthly

So OPs gripe is having to pay extra for a monthly ticket, annual ticket is same price as leap.

They are having to pay 316 extra yearly or 26 monthly (before tax deductions) by getting the ticket monthly.

I imagine it's the usual extra admin etc of having to issue monthly tickets.

Jem72

I've been a long-distance commuter from Edgeworthstown from well over 10 years now. For me, the pre-tax price of the tax saver is almost exactly the same as buying individual tickets. A day return is 24.65 while an annual commuter is 4030. Between a day or two working from home per week and occasional business travel, I'd average out at about 3.5 days a week over 47 weeks which would make it about 4050 euro.

Luckily for me I get the full tax benefit but I know people who were stuck commuting for part-time courses who could neither reclaim the tax nor get student tickets and were getting seriously ripped off for train travel.

Over the time I've been commuting a day return went from about 20 euro to about 25 while the annual taxsaver went from 2,400 to 4,030. So I would definitely agree with the OP. The regular commuter is being targeted as they are basically stuck with paying up. The NTA price determination actually stated this a couple of years back.

L1011

Stheno wrote: »

I imagine it's the usual extra admin etc of having to issue monthly tickets.

There isn't €26 a month of admin required. There's €0 or as close to as its incalculable, as the ticket is issued electronically to the smartcard every month.

Carawaystick

From any correspondence I've had with the NTA, they don't care about passengers/customers. Only PT companies interests.

efb

My TaxSaver ticket is on a Leap Card

LXFlyer

Stheno wrote: »

From the OP



So OPs gripe is having to pay extra for a monthly ticket, annual ticket is same price as leap.

They are having to pay 316 extra yearly or 26 monthly (before tax deductions) by getting the ticket monthly.

I imagine it's the usual extra admin etc of having to issue monthly tickets.

The annual tickets are discounted to the price of 10 monthly tickets.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that both monthly and annual ticket prices have increased at a higher rate than cash/LEAP fares.

efb

lxflyer wrote: »

The annual tickets are discounted to the price of 10 monthly tickets.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that both monthly and annual ticket prices have increased at a higher rate than cash/LEAP fares.

Where is the evidence of this?

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

My TaxSaver ticket is on a Leap Card

Again - there is no such thing as a taxsaver ticket.

You mean your monthly or annual ticket!

Such tickets can be bought through the taxsaver scheme or directly at full price.

They are all now issued on personalised LEAP cards.

efb

My annual ticket bought through the TaxSaver scheme then!

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

Where is the evidence of this?

Go through every NTA fare determination and it will become clear to you.

They are all on the NTA website.

efb

lxflyer wrote: »

Go through every NTA fare determination and it will become clear to you.

They are all on the NTA website.

I thought you had it worked out!

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

I thought you had it worked out!

I have - but I'm not going to do your work for you.

If you don't believe me, you know where to look, but it's kind of glaringly obvious looking at the pricing.

efb

lxflyer wrote: »

I have - but I'm not going to do your work for you.

Well you made the statement.


I have TaxSaver sourced annual ticket so it's ALWAYS been cheaper for me

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

Well you made the statement.


I have TaxSaver sourced annual ticket so it's ALWAYS been cheaper for me

With respect, several people have made the statement, not just me. You've suggested that it is not true, yet don't back it up yourself. I've actually told you where the raw data is, and I am 100% sure that will back my statement up.

As for your ticket, well I am delighted for you.

But you are missing the point.

The point I and the OP are making is that monthly and annual tickets always offered a discount to the customer over paying on a trip by trip basis, for the simple reason that the company's got the benefit of the cash up front.

The taxsaver scheme was designed to offer a further incentive to people to buy such tickets on top of that, in order to encourage more people to use public transport.

The NTA have, over the last few years, appeared to have taken the view that the pricing of the tickets should be on the basis of people being able to avail of the taxsaver scheme, and that ignores anyone who cannot avail of the scheme, namely anyone self-employed or those whose employer refuses to operate it. Those two groups incorporate a large number of people, who frankly are being ripped off by being expected to pay higher fares.

As Jem72 stated above, they actually stated that it was their view that regular monthly/annual ticket holders should pay more in one of their fare determinations.

efb

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect, several people have made the statement, not just me. You've suggested that it is not true, yet don't back it up yourself. I've actually told you where the raw data is, and I am 100% sure that will back my statement up.


As for your ticket, well I am delighted for you.


But you are missing the point.


The point I and the OP are making is that monthly and annual tickets always offered a discount to the customer over paying on a trip by trip basis, for the simple reason that the company's got the benefit of the cash up front.


The taxsaver scheme was designed to offer a further incentive to people to buy such tickets on top of that, in order to encourage more people to use public transport.


The NTA have over the last few years appear to have taken the view that the pricing of the tickets should be on the basis of people being able to avail of the taxsaver scheme, and that ignores anyone who cannot avail of the scheme, namely anyone self-employed or those whose employer refuses to operate it. Those two groups incorporate a large number of people, who frankly are being ripped off.

Well wouldn't the capped PAYG system be best for them then?

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

Well wouldn't the capped PAYG system be best for them then?

I'll put it another way - do you not think that someone who pays up front for a full year's travel, thereby giving the operating company the benefit of the use of that cash, should not be getting a discount over someone who pays on a weekly basis?

efb

lxflyer wrote: »

I'll put it another way - do you not think that someone who pays up front for a full year's travel, thereby giving the operating company the benefit of the use of that cash, should not be getting a discount over someone who pays on a weekly basis?

Depends on the method of payment

efb

Why would you pay more??? Just use leap Capped
It's like people who buy the bigger box of cereal when then smaller one is cheaper per kg!!!

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

Depends on the method of payment

Care to elaborate?


I don't see how that comes into it in these circumstances.

efb

lxflyer wrote: »

Care to elaborate?


I don't see how that comes into it in these circumstances.

Leap is eliminating cash and having a multi platform ticket

Cash management costs companies additional costs

For me capped PAYG is a no brainier tbh

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

Why would you pay more??? Just use leap Capped
It's like people who buy the bigger box of cereal when then smaller one is cheaper per kg!!!

But you are missing the point - the NTA increased the prices of the annual tickets so that they are no longer offering the discount.


As a result that means that people are effectively paying more.


As Jem72 states above - some people don't have the option of LEAP PAYG.


Longer distance commuters on IE who can't avail of the taxsaver scheme in some cases are better off buying tickets each time they travel than buying an annual ticket.


Are you suggesting that is right?

efb

lxflyer wrote: »

But you are missing the point - the NTA increased the prices of the annual tickets so that they are no longer offering the discount.


As a result that means that people are effectively paying more.


As Jem72 states above - some people don't have the option of LEAP.


Longer distance commuters on IE who can't avail of the taxsaver scheme in some cases are better off buying tickets each time they travel than buying an annual ticket.


Are you suggesting that is right?

Can you cite an example of the last paragraph?

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

Can you cite an example of the last paragraph?

Go to Jem72's post above.

efb

Daily €24.65
Weekly €115
Monthly €403
Yearly €4030

Edgewordstown to Dublin

So travelling 5 days a week is cheaper on the weekly/Monthly/Yearly not the same cost as daily- and get more cost effective the longer the period

efb

If you work 2/3 days a week obviously PAYG works out better, but the ticket offer travel for the full period

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

If you work 2/3 days a week obviously PAYG works out better, but the ticket offer travel for the full period

That's true - but look at the rate of increase in the price of a day return ticket and that of an annual ticket as his post states.

Is that justified?

You do seem to be very defensive of the NTA pricing structure - why?

efb

lxflyer wrote: »

That's true - but look at the rate of increase in the price of a day return ticket and that of an annual ticket as his post states.

Is that justified?

You do seem to be very defensive of the NTA pricing structure - why?

What does that matter?

You said that the long distance commuter would be better off buying single tickets, but when example was examined it was only true when they were commuting part time.

LXFlyer

efb wrote: »

What does that matter?

Because you seem very keen to defend their pricing.

efb wrote: »

You said that the long distance commuter would be better off buying single tickets, but when example was examined it was only true when they were commuting part time.

Yes but in that particular case, said part-time commuter could have saved money by buying an annual ticket in times gone by, but because of the higher rate of increase of the price of annual tickets, compared to buying on the day, that option is no longer offering a discount.

The rate of discount has diminished over the years for anyone not availing of the taxsaver scheme, and in that case no longer exists.

That was the whole point!