Is Irish rugby truly the beacon of inclusiveness it is purported to be?

seachto7

I rarely if ever post in the rugby forum, but do lurk!

I came across this blog earlier, which is an interesting read. I would be interested to hear real rugby fans views on this.

I didn't write it!

I won't post the article here, as it's quite long.

Mods: Maybe I should have just put the link in the general rugby thread, but thought there might be a good few comments on this, so would be worthy of it's own thread?

Maybe it should be in the political forum!

I do have an interest in identity, and cultural identity in Ireland, which ties into this obviously.

https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/is-irish-rugby-truly-the-beacon-of-inclusiveness-it-is-purported-to-be/

Magico Gonzalez

Confesses in the comments section that he is not a rugby fan, goes on to call the team "underachievers".

Probably wouldn't have bothered writing the article if Ireland had beaten Argentina, much like the rest of the gibberish written about the game by people who have no interest in it.

Nice bit of press for his blog though.

irishbucsfan

I think his points are interesting enough, it's just not a fair reflection of how rugby in Ireland has got to the point it is at now. I think he's almost entirely unfamiliar with the sport and it's history (as he himself admits) so it's always going to be difficult for him to fairly consider the reality of things.

bilston

I didn't read the whole blog, it's Friday night and it's long, however skimming through it there are some interesting points made about subjects that are taboo on this MB and are probably better discussed elsewhere.

As for rugby's stature in Ireland I don't think anyone involved in the sport on the island are under any illusions that it is very much fourth fiddle behind Football and the two GAA codes.

However it is the biggest professional team sport in Ireland at domestic level and we are relatively successful at international so therefore it punches above its weight in media coverage.

Cu Choileain

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Confesses in the comments section that he is not a rugby fan, goes on to call the team "underachievers".

Probably wouldn't have bothered writing the article if Ireland had beaten Argentina, much like the rest of the gibberish written about the game by people who have no interest in it.

Nice bit of press for his blog though.

Hi Magico. I'm the author of the piece. I saw from the blog's stats page that some readers were linking from Boards, so just thought I'd respond here.

I'm primarily a football fan - this is true - but that doesn't disqualify me from observing and critiquing rugby and its relationship with the Irish media, surely? That's not so much a "confession"; more a clarification of my background. Also, as you'll see from other pieces I've written, I'm more than happy to criticise those who run or are involved in football in Ireland too when I see fit, just so you know I'm not on some blind anti-rugby crusade.

A lot of the first half of the piece is more-or-less vocalising or documenting the debate (headed by Ewan MacKenna over recent days) over rugby's actual status or popularity in Ireland and the level and nature of the media coverage devoted to it. I have tried to avoid making any claims that I wouldn't be qualified to make myself. Is there anything particular (gibberish?) that I personally have stated in the first half with which you take issue?

Is the "underachievers" comment unfair? The team have done relatively poorly in what you have to admit is a very small "global" pool, in spite of great expectations and public adoration.

I'm not a unionist myself, but the issue of unionist representation is something on which I've long had feelings, as there's a very clear disparity there in favour of the nationalist ethos. I'm not here to lecture or to tell rugby how to run itself; just pointing out what I perceive to be a discrepancy in terms of representation. Admittedly, there's a politico-cultural aspect or motivation to what I've written as well; I'd like to think I can encourage fellow nationalist or southern readers to engage in some self-reflection and to think about what we expect for ourselves in comparison to what we expect of unionists - I think a double standard is applied here - and then to weigh that against our liberal or republican perceptions of ourselves. It's an Irish societal issue as well as an IRFU issue.

For what it's worth, I had the bulk of the article written in the hope of publishing it about half a week before the Argentina game but a trip to Amsterdam in the mean time held it back.

Thank you for your interest though and any further criticism of specific assertions or arguments is more than welcome.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think his points are interesting enough, it's just not a fair reflection of how rugby in Ireland has got to the point it is at now. I think he's almost entirely unfamiliar with the sport and it's history (as he himself admits) so it's always going to be difficult for him to fairly consider the reality of things.

I wouldn't say I'm entirely unfamiliar with the sport and its history. One can observe with interest from the outside. Is there anything in particular that makes you say that?

Aidan Holland

Rugby will never have the same reach that soccer has in this island mainly due to the success of ni and Republic in getting to 6 world cups and 3 euros.The two have managed to get 3 world cup quarter finals between them aswell as 2 last 16 in USA and Korea Japan in 02. Also those achievements in the most played sport in the world dwarfs anything the rugby team has done

irishbucsfan

Aidan Holland wrote: »

Rugby will never have the same reach that soccer has in this island mainly due to the success of ni and Republic in getting to 6 world cups and 3 euros.The two have managed to get 3 world cup quarter finals between them aswell as 2 last 16 in USA and Korea Japan in 02. Also those achievements in the most played sport in the world dwarfs anything the rugby team has done

Yes, but they have to keep doing that. Support will fall away for soccer if the international side fails to reach those heights again, especially without any decent standard in the domestic leagues. That support will more likely divert to the GAA but rugby will also benefit.

errlloyd

The start of the article is loaded with the same arguments we've heard about why we only care about rugby becuase guys in board rooms care about rugby. No real substantive evidence has been put forward, other than an anecdote about a journalist paying his own way to a world cup Ireland weren't playing in while three men went on a tour to Argentina that involved our team, and wasn't going to otherwised covered by anyone.

But more to the point. Lots of sports are played by elite classes and get next to no media coverage. Indeed field hockey is an outrageously popular sport world wide, and a huge amount of players are concentrated in elite private schools. It gets almost no coverage.

I see the market for bona fide rugby coverage. Lads born here, play here, train here doing well in a sport that may only be played in a handful of countries, but they're the countries most culturally similar to ours. The rivalries give it spice.


The second half of the essay is a nice history lesson of Ireland. It's completely irrelevant to modern rugby. I too am amused by the use of the flag of ulster and the history of the anthems, but the Irish anthem could be played before a championship match with no anthem to represent a derry unionist.

Losty Dublin

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think his points are interesting enough, it's just not a fair reflection of how rugby in Ireland has got to the point it is at now. I think he's almost entirely unfamiliar with the sport and it's history (as he himself admits) so it's always going to be difficult for him to fairly consider the reality of things.

I've read it once and I'll row in behind you. It's inaccurate in many places and in many ways but it's well meant and well written and it's not taking the Mickey.

Now don't get me wrong; I'm not blaming the author for not knowing all manner of things about the game. Still, he should consider that writing such a long and in depth critique on the game in general when he isn't really in the know about rugby is lining himself us as cannon fodder.

I'll bite my tongue otherwise but I will say this; within the County of Dublin and the hinterland there are a lot more rugby clubs and schools on the northside than you'd think.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/domestic/club_finder.php

Yeah_Right

As an outsider living here, I have to ask... why does sport have to be politicised? Why can't we celebrate achievement? Why does every sport have to be compared and set against each other? Rugby v GAA v soccer v cricket v boxing v horse racing v tiddlywinks v who gives a f***! Back your countrymen/women. Celebrate success.

Can I be a fan of more than one sport? Is that allowed? If it isn't, then **** you and kiss my ass because I am and will support those teams till I die.

jacothelad

Cu Choileain wrote: »

Hi Magico. I'm the author of the piece. I saw from the blog's stats page that some readers were linking from Boards, so just thought I'd respond here.

I'm primarily a football fan - this is true - but that doesn't disqualify me from observing and critiquing rugby and its relationship with the Irish media, surely? That's not so much a "confession"; more a clarification of my background. Also, as you'll see from other pieces I've written, I'm more than happy to criticise those who run or are involved in football in Ireland too when I see fit, just so you know I'm not on some blind anti-rugby crusade.

A lot of the first half of the piece is more-or-less vocalising or documenting the debate (headed by Ewan MacKenna over recent days) over rugby's actual status or popularity in Ireland and the level and nature of the media coverage devoted to it. I have tried to avoid making any claims that I wouldn't be qualified to make myself. Is there anything particular (gibberish?) that I personally have stated in the first half with which you take issue?

Is the "underachievers" comment unfair? The team have done relatively poorly in what you have to admit is a very small "global" pool, in spite of great expectations and public adoration.

I'm not a unionist myself, but the issue of unionist representation is something on which I've long had feelings, as there's a very clear disparity there in favour of the nationalist ethos. I'm not here to lecture or to tell rugby how to run itself; just pointing out what I perceive to be a discrepancy in terms of representation. Admittedly, there's a politico-cultural aspect or motivation to what I've written as well; I'd like to think I can encourage fellow nationalist or southern readers to engage in some self-reflection and to think about what we expect for ourselves in comparison to what we expect of unionists - I think a double standard is applied here - and then to weigh that against our liberal or republican perceptions of ourselves. It's an Irish societal issue as well as an IRFU issue.

For what it's worth, I had the bulk of the article written in the hope of publishing it about half a week before the Argentina game but a trip to Amsterdam in the mean time held it back.

Thank you for your interest though and any further criticism of specific assertions or arguments is more than welcome.



I wouldn't say I'm entirely unfamiliar with the sport and its history. One can observe with interest from the outside. Is there anything in particular that makes you say that?

A point I've made before on here is this. In 2007 Ireland played a game at Ravenhill v. Italy. Since that time, at various levels from schoolboy rugby upwards there have been about 200 representative Ireland games. 1 has been in Northern Ireland. That is ONE. Less than 1% of the representative games have been held in that part of Ireland with about 33% of the population.

To further poosibly estrange rugby fans in Northern Ireland, are you aware that the IRFU entered into a t.v. deal with Sky in which viewers in the R.o.I get to watch Non-6 Nations games for free but viewers in N.I. have to pay. How is that for inclusivity despite what appear to be mealy mouthed sentiments from the IRFU about being inclusive.

As for flags and tunes, I couldn't care less and in reality I've never heard anyone in N.I. in any rugby club or pub make any noise about it at all. I'm outraged at the lack of games played here and also about the t.v. deal. I am a Sky subscriber but that is not the point. Again, what is supposed to be one team and one rugby population is tossed overboard. So much for principles. Tossed out the window and beggar those up North. Imagine the outcry there would have been if the roles were reversed and 'we' got it free. It's just of a piece with the philosophy that governs rugby from Lansdowne. Fortunately the game is bigger than the closed minds who run it.

Digifriendly

jacothelad wrote: »

To further possibly estrange rugby fans in Northern Ireland, are you aware that the IRFU entered into a t.v. deal with Sky in which viewers in the R.o.I get to watch Non-6 Nations games for free but viewers in N.I. have to pay. How is that for inclusivity despite what appear to be mealy mouthed sentiments from the IRFU about being inclusive.

Not strictly true as Ireland's autumn internationals are available FTA on RTE via Freeview in NI (known as NIMM) and on RTE via Saorview which is available to c70% of viewers in NI.

Tim Robbins

Yeah_Right wrote: »

As an outsider living here, I have to ask... why does sport have to be politicised? Why can't we celebrate achievement? Why does every sport have to be compared and set against each other? Rugby v GAA v soccer v cricket v boxing v horse racing v tiddlywinks v who gives a f***! Back your countrymen/women. Celebrate success.

Can I be a fan of more than one sport? Is that allowed? If it isn't, then **** you and kiss my ass because I am and will support those teams till I die.

+1

I think the reason why Rugby players get a bit more respect is because they give more respect: to the ref, to the jersey and to the opposition usually than those in say Soccer do. Soccer players dive, shout at the ref and sometimes look disinterested even though they make 100K a week. Fans are sick of this.

Your man Ewan McKenna is just looking for attention. Useless journalist.

CatFromHue

The World Cup in South Africa was on and a colleague of mine, Miguel Delaney, paid his own way to go to the World Cup because we weren’t sending any of our journalists to cover it. Yet, that summer, a kind of an Irish ‘B’ team toured Argentina and we paid for three journalists to go and cover it. Again, because from on high, this is rugby, this is our sport.

This is a lie.

The rugby team toured Argentina in 07 and 14, the world cup in SA was in 2010. The Tribune shut down less than a year after it, the SA world cup, and 07 was the height of the Celtic Tiger madness.

Cu Choileain

Yeah_Right wrote: »

As an outsider living here, I have to ask... why does sport have to be politicised? Why can't we celebrate achievement? Why does every sport have to be compared and set against each other? Rugby v GAA v soccer v cricket v boxing v horse racing v tiddlywinks v who gives a f***! Back your countrymen/women. Celebrate success.

Can I be a fan of more than one sport? Is that allowed? If it isn't, then **** you and kiss my ass because I am and will support those teams till I die.

Life is inherently political on account of people's/society's competing and contrasting interests coming into mutual contact. That inevitably seems to find its way into sport as well; sport being a human-led endeavour, of course. If it is felt that rugby is treated in a particular way on account of some aspect of its seemingly-integral nature, it is only fair to look at how other high-profile or popular sports are treated in comparison. Distinguished or apparently-favourable treatment will naturally prompt questions. That's not to say there's a competition or that you need to choose one sport over the other; certainly not. It's fine to support as many as you wish; go for it. I am happy to see the rugby team do well myself, even if football is my primary sport of interest, although I'm not sure there was any success to celebrate on this occasion.

What you advise in terms of "just backing your countrymen and women" is a nice sentiment, but it's naive. Questioning perceived favouritism, distinguished treatment or hypocrisy in a constructive manner, instead of blindly following "because we're all Irish, aren't we?" and assuming all is fair and dandy, isn't a bad thing, is it? What you're advocating is blind patriotism; it can breed zombie-esque complacency in its most benign forms or it can be positively dangerous for society when it allows those with more malicious intentions "in the national interest" off the hook. It's good to question things; embrace challenge. It's how we learn about one another and, indeed, ourselves.

jacothelad wrote: »

A point I've made before on here is this. In 2007 Ireland played a game at Ravenhill v. Italy. Since that time, at various levels from schoolboy rugby upwards there have been about 200 representative Ireland games. 1 has been in Northern Ireland. That is ONE. Less than 1% of the representative games have been held in that part of Ireland with about 33% of the population.

To further poosibly estrange rugby fans in Northern Ireland, are you aware that the IRFU entered into a t.v. deal with Sky in which viewers in the R.o.I get to watch Non-6 Nations games for free but viewers in N.I. have to pay. How is that for inclusivity despite what appear to be mealy mouthed sentiments from the IRFU about being inclusive.

As for flags and tunes, I couldn't care less and in reality I've never heard anyone in N.I. in any rugby club or pub make any noise about it at all. I'm outraged at the lack of games played here and also about the t.v. deal. I am a Sky subscriber but that is not the point. Again, what is supposed to be one team and one rugby population is tossed overboard. So much for principles. Tossed out the window and beggar those up North. Imagine the outcry there would have been if the roles were reversed and 'we' got it free. It's just of a piece with the philosophy that governs rugby from Lansdowne. Fortunately the game is bigger than the closed minds who run it.

Cheers for that, jacothelad. Some interesting points you make, there.

Does the fact that many Ulster rugby fans of the unionist tradition just keep quiet about the symbols matter, possibly because it's "just the way it is/always has been" or because they don't want to be seen to be "moaning", "moping" or "pushing their weight around", negate the reality or fact that there is a disparity there in terms of symbolic representation? If there is disparity there, surely that is unfair in principle, whether or not some seek to push the issue in practice or not on account of weighing it up with other concerns.

CatFromHue wrote: »

This is a lie.

The rugby team toured Argentina in 07 and 14, the world cup in SA was in 2010. The Tribune shut down less than a year after it, the SA world cup, and 07 was the height of the Celtic Tiger madness.

What you say is indeed correct. I have tweeted this to Ewan and also highlighted it in a comment underneath my piece.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

+1

I think the reason why Rugby players get a bit more respect is because they give more respect: to the ref, to the jersey and to the opposition usually than those in say Soccer do. Soccer players dive, shout at the ref and sometimes look disinterested even though they make 100K a week. Fans are sick of this.

See, I feel this sort of generalised, haughty and self-righteous social superiority complex is an inherent politicisation (or socio-political analysis) of sport and the games of rugby and football, and that's in what these sorts of claims are ultimately rooted, no matter what way you wish to present it. It's an overtly contentious remark. But you'll thank Yeah_Right when he or she tells me I'm the one doing the politicising when I take issue with things like this.

What would Craig Joubert say to the claim that the rugby fraternity respects its officials? He has been harangued since his Scotland-Australia error. He sprinted off the field to avoid an verbal onslaught from crowd and players. Those involved in rugby are not above disrespect, nor do they command the moral high ground because of some insulting notion that the sport is played by an inherently better and more honest stock of person. Any human, whatever their circumstances, has potential for negative traits and all sports are consequently afflicted with instances of disrespect. There's a piece in the Telegraph by Oliver Brown entitled 'How once-proud gentlemen's game has become the new football' that might be worth checking out, if you can Google it. I cannot post direct URL links at present, as I'm a new user.

Simulation in soccer is a curse that FIFA need to stamp out, but there's gamesmanship, dishonesty and rule-bending in rugby too. It's only inevitable that participants in professional sport will push the rules to their limits when winning is the priority. Soccer players who are disinterested don't make it very far. They're found out pretty quickly.

I thought this post from a thread on Foot.ie was worth noting (as, I say, unfortunately, I cannot seem to provide a direct URL as I'm a new user; sorry):

tetsujin1979 wrote:

I made this point elsewhere, just reposting here. While sports journalists will always criticise the national side after a loss in their sport (Fanning/McDonnell on football, Thornley on rugby, etc), it's the treatment of footballers on the front page of the paper that exposes the bias in my opinion.

A footballer will make it on the front page for getting behind the wheel of a car after having a drink, losing a bundle on a horse, or spending the night with a woman who isn't their partner. For whatever reason, this rarely happens for athletes in other codes, not just GAA and rugby, both of which have players with problems with alcohol, gambling and fidelity. More than one person that I know has been convinced that because Ashley Cole and John Terry are utter scumbags, that this must mean all footballers are.

Fr Tod Umptious

That blog is an interesting read.

I was always aware that GSTQ was not played in Belfast in 2007 and it certainly stunk of a double standard.

But I was not aware of the flags in this RWC.

I always thought Ireland played under a neutral flag when not in Dublin.
A green background with some sort of emblem in the middle.

I as not aware that the tri-colour was flow and less still that a flag more likely to be seen at an Ulster Championship game in GAA was being flown.

I have always thought that the best way to resolve this was to split the IRFU and create two separate national teams, just like in soccer, to play what anthem and fly what flag they wish without the fear of offending others.
Not going to happen I know.

jacothelad

Cu Choileain wrote: »

Cheers for that, jacothelad. Some interesting points you make, there.

Does the fact that many Ulster rugby fans of the unionist tradition just keep quiet about the symbols matter, possibly because it's "just the way it is/always has been" or because they don't want to be seen to be "moaning", "moping" or "pushing their weight around", negate the reality or fact that there is a disparity there in terms of symbolic representation? If there is disparity there, surely that is unfair in principle, whether or not some seek to push the issue in practice or not on account of weighing it up with other concerns.

I suppose from the perspective of a member of the Unionist community who is British by heritage, not choice and having an enduring love of both all of Ireland and rugby, it's easy for me to ignore what is probably - well definitely - a situation where those of us from this part of the island are getting the short end of the stick in terms of rugby. Also, like most middle class Unionists we don't place any importance on flags and symbols. In my view that is for those of little intellect and low self esteem who need to shore themselves up with something to wave. Like that pathetic loon in the Celtic shirt at Croke in 2007 with the 'No foreign games ' placard.

I've been travelling to Dublin Since 1955 for rugby games, both to play and to watch at Lansdowne Road and never once did it cross my mind that there was anything odd or imbalanced about the playing of or the displaying of Irish symbols. I suppose if I'd been asked I would have thought that if a representative game was played at Ravenhill it would have been to the musical strain and emblem of that part of the U.K. After all rugby is supposed to be even handed but it just never came up. In fact I find such things tedious and boring. I'm interested in the game, not the flag waving.

Out there in the big, bad world however it seems that it's o.k. to be an Irish patriotic rugby fan and espouse all things Irish and have your flag and your anthem. Apparently though this generosity of spirit is limited exclusively to that group. It isn't o.k.to be a part of the inherently British community playing and supporting the Rugby team that represents me and those like me and to have the same freedoms. We apparently are responsible for all those really bad things that happened 100 years ago so we can't be seen in public as it were.. It's a bit like in Victorian or Edwardian times when you had a strange or mad relative. They were excluded from the 'conversation' and locked out of sight so that hopefully one day they will just disappear off into the night and the problem will be solved.

It's not as if anyone chooses to be born Irish or chooses to be born British on this island. We are what we are. There are of course those of narrow minds that see only the Irish bit as important. I am not talking here about politics. For every narrow mind on one side of politics there is narrow mind on the other. I'm sure you have heard the derogatory and pejorative expression to be a 'Little Englander.' It is an epithet applied in criticisms of English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being 'ignorant' and 'boorish'. Well stop the press but there are plenty of 'Little Irelanders' out there, certainly in regard to the situation in rugby. Yes, we don't get a completely fair crack of the whip but the thing is this, by saying nothing or not making any waves it keeps us above those who think we haven't noticed.

I love rugby with a passion. As I approach my 70s I don't feel and never have felt myself to be a second class rugby citizen because we are ignored by people too thick to notice or too arrogant to think they've 'got away with it.'

jacothelad

Digifriendly wrote: »

Not strictly true as Ireland's autumn internationals are available FTA on RTE via Freeview in NI (known as NIMM) and on RTE via Saorview which is available to c70% of viewers in NI.

Don't you get that it is the principle that we are supposed to be inclusive. It's not about blagging a free transmission. I pay for Sky Sports anyway so it doesn't cost me any more. What it does show however is that I am no longer equal in the eyes of the IRFU.

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

+1

I think the reason why Rugby players get a bit more respect is because they give more respect: to the ref, to the jersey and to the opposition usually than those in say Soccer do. Soccer players dive, shout at the ref and sometimes look disinterested even though they make 100K a week. Fans are sick of this.

Your man Ewan McKenna is just looking for attention. Useless journalist.

Some big generalisations there and are fans sick of this in soccer?

IRFU and irish rugby has improved a lot but could be doing so much more and so much better

stephen_n

jacothelad wrote: »

Don't you get that it is the principle that we are supposed to be inclusive. It's not about blagging a free transmission. I pay for Sky Sports anyway so it doesn't cost me any more. What it does show however is that I am no longer equal in the eyes of the IRFU.

Is that the IRFU, or is that how the TV companies view regions and don't consider it as the same. I don't know what the financial implications would be for negotiating a single island deal, or if it's even possible.



On another point, popularity requires perspective, prior to Jack Charlton an Irish International game would be lucky to get 10,000 people, when the IRFU were filling Lansdowne Road. Success breads relative popularity in most cases. As for media bias, in the last 15 years when Irish rugby has been relatively successful, you'd be lucky to see a page of coverage in a lot of papers, which would have 8-10 pages on soccer or GAA depending on the time of year. Will rugby ever be more popular than Soccer or GAA, probably not but considering the viewership figures for this World Cup, it is certainly expanding its popularity and clearly that irritates people with entrenched opinions.

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

Don't you get that it is the principle that we are supposed to be inclusive. It's not about blagging a free transmission. I pay for Sky Sports anyway so it doesn't cost me any more. What it does show however is that I am no longer equal in the eyes of the IRFU.

Its not the IRFU though that sells the broadcasting rights. Its the 6Ns company.

Did BBC NI bid for the rights? Since Ulster get such good PRO12 cover, it wouldn't surprise me that their rugby budget is all used up on that.

Tim Robbins

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Some big generalisations there and are fans sick of this in soccer?

IRFU and irish rugby has improved a lot but could be doing so much more and so much better

Thanks for following me around again I am happily married just to let you know :pac:

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

As for flags and tunes, I couldn't care less and in reality I've never heard anyone in N.I. in any rugby club or pub make any noise about it at all. I'm outraged at the lack of games played here and also about the t.v. deal. I am a Sky subscriber but that is not the point. Again, what is supposed to be one team and one rugby population is tossed overboard. So much for principles. Tossed out the window and beggar those up North. Imagine the outcry there would have been if the roles were reversed and 'we' got it free. It's just of a piece with the philosophy that governs rugby from Lansdowne. Fortunately the game is bigger than the closed minds who run it.

Where do you propose these rugby internationals you want in NI to be held?

Tim Robbins

Cu Choileain wrote: »

See, I feel this sort of generalised, haughty and self-righteous social superiority complex is an inherent politicisation (or socio-political analysis) of sport and the games of rugby and football, and that's in what these sorts of claims are ultimately rooted, no matter what way you wish to present it. It's an overtly contentious remark. But you'll thank Yeah_Right when he or she tells me I'm the one doing the politicising when I take issue with things like this.

Some truth in it. I actually came from original a Soccer background and I am actually ok at it but find it hard to watch a game. Skill level very high but the other issues put me off the sport. How many middle of the road people are happy to bring their young kids to Bohs V Rovers match? Compared to say a Leinster V Munster game or Dublin V Cork game.

What would Craig Joubert say to the claim that the rugby fraternity respects its officials? He has been harangued since his Scotland-Australia error. He sprinted off the field to avoid an verbal onslaught from crowd and players. Those involved in rugby are not above disrespect, nor do they command the moral high ground because of some insulting notion that the sport is played by an inherently better and more honest stock of person. Any human, whatever their circumstances, has potential for negative traits and all sports are consequently afflicted with instances of disrespect. There's a piece in the Telegraph by Oliver Brown entitled 'How once-proud gentlemen's game has become the new football' that might be worth checking out, if you can Google it. I cannot post direct URL links at present, as I'm a new user.

You have a point here. We don't want the cr*p from Soccer creeping into Rugby. I am sick of hearing people give out about Joubert and very few challenge what can't Scotland win their own lineout?

Simulation in soccer is a curse that FIFA need to stamp out, but there's gamesmanship, dishonesty and rule-bending in rugby too. It's only inevitable that participants in professional sport will push the rules to their limits when winning is the priority. Soccer players who are disinterested don't make it very far. They're found out pretty quickly.

Agree. but there are levels. I was watching a little bit of Liverpool this week and saw Klop roaring at the 4th official. This is just accepted in Soccer and shouldn't be.

No sport is perfect. They all have issues. But in general, in my view the level of respect in Rugby is way higher. When I take to GAA and Soccer folk and tell them amateur refs in Rugby don't get paid they are dumb founded because no-one (not even U8 refs) in soccer / gaa do it without getting paid.

Digifriendly

jacothelad wrote: »

Don't you get that it is the principle that we are supposed to be inclusive. It's not about blagging a free transmission. I pay for Sky Sports anyway so it doesn't cost me any more. What it does show however is that I am no longer equal in the eyes of the IRFU.

If in your OP you had said some viewers in NI had to pay to watch Ireland's Autumn Internationals you would have been correct but impression was that all viewers had to pay and this is not correct. BTW I agree entirely with your sentiments re TV deal but at least there was no insistence on part of IRFU that RTE's transmissions in NI (both on satellite and Freeview) be geo-blocked as ROI soccer internationals are. We are thankful here in NI for small mercies.

El_Duderino 09

I can't stand this motion towards being more critical of the rugby team. The logic seems to be that Just because footballers get hounded 24/7, so too should the rugby players.

2 reasons I don't think they need more scrutiny from the likes of you and me.

1 I watched Dave Kearney have his finger put back in its socket and he only wanted to play on. I believe they are massively committed and play through all the pain barriers. Ireland were beaten on Sunday but I believe they had given 100% on the pitch and I was proud to support them.

2 I don't agree with the scrutiny of footballers. It's either way over the top praise or condemnation of their skill and character.

I think this is the result of rugby gaining popularity and journalists looking to drum up a readership using tabloid rubbish rater than reporting on the sport. It's easier to write a story about a footballer crashing a Ferrari or banging a hairdresser than genuinely critiquing their performance on the pitch. Furthermore it is easier for a casual fan to understand a titillating story than a genuine critique of performance.

It's a move we rugby fans should resist unless it's justified critique. Criticism for criticism's sake can only drive a wedge between the team and the fans.

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You have a point here. We don't want the cr*p from Soccer creeping into Rugby. I am sick of hearing people give out about Joubert and very few challenge what can't Scotland win their own lineout?

Why do we have to keep bring up "I am sick of this soccer crap creeping into rugby" etc?

El_Duderino 09

The Lost Sheep wrote:

Why do we have to keep bring up "I am sick of this soccer crap creeping into rugby" etc?

Probably because soccer crap is creeping into rugby and were sick of it.

Dirty Dingus McGee

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I can't stand this motion towards being more critical of the rugby team. The logic seems to be that Just because footballers get hounded 24/7, so too should the rugby players.

2 reasons I don't think they need more scrutiny from the likes of you and me.

1 I watched Dave Kearney have his finger put back in its socket and he only wanted to play on. I believe they are massively committed and play through all the pain barriers. Ireland were beaten on Sunday but I believe they had given 100% on the pitch and I was proud to support them.

2 I don't agree with the scrutiny of footballers. It's either way over the top praise or condemnation of their skill and character.

I think this is the result of rugby gaining popularity and journalists looking to drum up a readership using tabloid rubbish rater than reporting on the sport. It's easier to write a story about a footballer crashing a Ferrari or banging a hairdresser than genuinely critiquing their performance on the pitch. Furthermore it is easier for a casual fan to understand a titillating story than a genuine critique of performance.

It's a move we rugby fans should resist unless it's justified critique. Criticism for criticism's sake can only drive a wedge between the team and the fans.

Cricket player James Faulkner played on a in a T20 final in England earlier this year after his finger was dislocated.I'd imagine the vast majority of sportsmen would do so as well so I wouldn't be giving players too much credit for that.

El_Duderino 09

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Cricket player James Faulkner played on a in a T20 final in England earlier this year after his finger was dislocated.I'd imagine the vast majority of sportsmen would do so as well so I wouldn't be giving players too much credit for that.

I don't believe a lot of soccer players would. I admire the rugby players on a personal and professional level. I don't get the impression that football supporters really like or admire the players. You'd get the impression they dislike the players, if you read the football media.

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

Where do you propose these rugby internationals you want in NI to be held?

Can you not work that out for yourself? Well, for a start how about a few U20s games or U18 games at Ravenhill/Kingspan. Maybe a Womens international game instead of at Ashbourne? What about one of those fake internationals like the one against Fiji at Thomond? A Club International? What about a Barbarians game? You see it's not hard to comprehend.

If the UCD Bowl is good enough,
If 'Irish Independent Park is good enough,
If DuBarry park is good enough,
if Ashbourne RFC is good enough,
if Donnybrook is good enough,
if Thomond park is good enough,
If Cork Con ground is good enough,
if Coolmine RFC in Ashbrook is good enough,
if Templeville Road is good enough,
if Malahide is good enough,
if the Sportsground is good enough,
if Old Belvedere is good enough,
if Anglesea Road is good enough,
if the RDS is good enough,
if the Tallaght Stadium is good enough,
if the Bellefield Bowl is good enough,
if Cork IT is good enough, then I am pretty sure that the likes of Ravenhill, Stevenson Park, Eaton Park, Shaws Bridge et al; are just as or more capable of hosting representative games as anywhere else on the Island.

"As the Governing Body for rugby across the island of Ireland and following almost two years of research and consultation with stakeholders, it is our collective resolve that this next stage in our vision for Irish rugby should be titled:

"From Grassroots to International Success; One Island, One Passion, One Goal''."

It's a pity the IRFU doesn't practice what they preach. Actions after all speak louder than mealy mouthed platitudes.

super_furry

I don't think Irish rugby could ever be accused of being inclusive. There are tentative steps being taken to expand the player base but just look at the number of people in the Irish squad who didn't attend a private school.

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

Its not the IRFU though that sells the broadcasting rights. Its the 6Ns company.

Did BBC NI bid for the rights? Since Ulster get such good PRO12 cover, it wouldn't surprise me that their rugby budget is all used up on that.

The 6 nations Rights are not at issue. The BBC broadcast the 6 Nations to the U.K. It is the IRFU that sold the coverage of non-6 Nations games to Skyand giving it free to one section of the population while charging the other to see their team play. If you can't see a problem with this principle, you'll not understand the principle of equal treatment for all rugby on the island.

CatFromHue

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think Irish rugby could ever be accused of being inclusive. There are tentative steps being taken to expand the player base but just look at the number of people in the Irish squad who didn't attend a private school.

That's not a great way of looking at it.

The guys who went to private schools could prob be classed as semi pro players from 14/15 onwards so they're way ahead of other players in terms of coaching.

It's the same with footballers who go to English clubs as teenagers versus those who didn't. Which group of these make it to the highest level?

seachto7

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

I don't believe a lot of soccer players would.

One did, in the 86 World Cup final, and it was his shoulder if I'm not mistaken. As in 'twas popped back in.

The Lost Sheep

CatFromHue wrote: »

That's not a great way of looking at it.

The guys who went to private schools could prob be classed as semi pro players from 14/15 onwards so they're way ahead of other players in terms of coaching.

It's the same with footballers who go to English clubs as teenagers versus those who didn't. Which group of these make it to the highest level?

Why isn't it a great way of looking at it? They do prepare somewhat like pros because they have advantages to do so.
Look at the pro squads? Numbers who attended private fee paying schools against those who didn't and compare number of each type of schools in the country as a whole

CatFromHue

Again you're just looking at the guys who make it as a pro and like soccer they tend to be the guys who got high level coaching from a young age.

jacothelad

CatFromHue wrote: »

Again you're just looking at the guys who make it as a pro and like soccer they tend to be the guys who got high level coaching from a young age.

Is it the wrong type of coaching though. One of Ulster's coaches told Gilroy he would never make it as a pro player. Gilroy may not be Denis Hickie but he's a pretty decent pro and has been from day one. At schools level, K>O> rugby oftem means that it's the biggest players that get the shirts while the small and skilful often get shunted aside. I'm pretty certain in N.Z. they would dismiss our way of marginalising creative players just because they hadn't grown to the size of a mountain.

irishbucsfan

jacothelad wrote: »

Is it the wrong type of coaching though. One of Ulster's coaches told Gilroy he would never make it as a pro player. Gilroy may not be Denis Hickie but he's a pretty decent pro and has been from day one. At schools level, K>O> rugby oftem means that it's the biggest players that get the shirts while the small and skilful often get shunted aside. I'm pretty certain in N.Z. they would dismiss our way of marginalising creative players just because they hadn't grown to the size of a mountain.

I went to school with a current international who was told the same.

But once we got exposed to proper professional coaching that changed quickly. The standard of coaching is far better there now and seems to be picking up across Leinster schools as far as I can tell. A bit concerning if those people (ie the school teacher-cum-coaches) are still entrenched up north in positions of power.

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

Can you not work that out for yourself? Well, for a start how about a few U20s games or U18 games at Ravenhill/Kingspan.

They are played in Athlone because its in the centre of Ireland. It might also have something to do with the sponsors being based in ROI.

Maybe a Womens international game instead of at Ashbourne? What about one of those fake internationals like the one against Fiji at Thomond? A Club International? What about a Barbarians game? You see it's not hard to comprehend.

Again I would say its about access - you don't see any of these games being held in Cork, Limerick or Galway.

Not too many games going to Thomond Park (which has up to recently double the capacity of Ravenhill). 18k capacity is not big enough for some of those games.

Ravenhill is hosting the semi-finals and final of the Women's Rugby world cup in 2017.

Shane Logan, CEO of Ulster Rugby, said: "Ulster Rugby is delighted that Belfast has been selected to hold the semi-finals and finals of the Women's Rugby World Cup in 2017.

"Kingspan Stadium is one of the premier rugby venues in Europe in a city that is passionate about rugby, so we are confident of staging a great festival of rugby in August 2017."

There has been a Junior World Cup in Belfast and a Wolfhounds v Saxons game in Belfast in recent times. The 'A' games seem to be rotated around the Provinces.

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

The 6 nations Rights are not at issue. The BBC broadcast the 6 Nations to the U.K. It is the IRFU that sold the coverage of non-6 Nations games to Skyand giving it free to one section of the population while charging the other to see their team play. If you can't see a problem with this principle, you'll not understand the principle of equal treatment for all rugby on the island.

I fail to see how the IRFU can sell the rights when its the 6Ns that have sold the rights to the BBC who have sold them onto Sky, RTE, ITV etc. We would be in exactly the same situation here if RTE didn't bid for them.

edit: Oops - misread.

The same principle though. Did BBC NI bid for the rights for the AIs?

Snickers Man

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That blog is an interesting read.

I have always thought that the best way to resolve this was to split the IRFU and create two separate national teams, just like in soccer,

The BEST way??? Wha'? The BEST way?? Are you for real?

It's ONE way. Hardly the BEST way.

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

I fail to see how the IRFU can sell the rights when its the 6Ns that have sold the rights to the BBC who have sold them onto Sky, RTE, ITV etc. We would be in exactly the same situation here if RTE didn't bid for them.

The 6 Nations Committee have sold the rights of Ireland Autumn Internationals to Sky? err No!

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

The 6 Nations Committee have sold the rights of Ireland Autumn Internationals to Sky? err No!

My edit above crossed with your post. Do you know if BBC NI or UTV bid for these rights or did the IRFU sell to Sky because they were the highest or only bidder?

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

They are played in Athlone because its in the centre of Ireland. It might also have something to do with the sponsors being based in ROI.



Again I would say its about access - you don't see any of these games being held in Cork, Limerick or Galway.

Not too many games going to Thomond Park (which has up to recently double the capacity of Ravenhill). 18k capacity is not big enough for some of those games.
Less than 18,000 turned up at Thomond for that Fiji game in 2012 if I recall correctly. As for capacity - catch a grip. Look at the list of grounds in which all those other games are played.

Ravenhill is hosting the semi-finals and final of the Women's Rugby world cup in 2017.

There has been a Junior World Cup in Belfast and a Wolfhounds v Saxons game in Belfast in recent times. The 'A' games seem to be rotated around the Provinces.

Athlone is the centre of Ireland so that's why games are there. What a load of twaddle. You can drag up all sorts of loony excuses and twist and swing in the wind but it's nonsense. Should the 1.8 million inhabitants of N.I. get down on our knees and thank the IRFU for the Womens RWC in 2017? No we feckin' shouldn't. As for Thomond - when exactly was it developed into a 26,000 capacity ground from 12 -`13,000.

It's very simple. The IRFU does not allocate lower level Internationals to the provinces on a fair basis.

seachto7

What are the Ulster branch doing about it? Have they campaigned or asked for more high profile games in Ulster.
I do think there should be more of the "lesser" internationals played in the provinces.
Until we hear the views of current or ex Ulster international players from a unionist background , we won't know what the current state of play is.
God only knows how Davy Tweed managed to put on a green shirt!

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

Athlone is the centre of Ireland so that's why games are there. What a load of twaddle. You can drag up all sorts of loony excuses and twist and swing in the wind but it's nonsense. Should the 1.8 million inhabitants of N.I. get down on our knees and thank the IRFU for the Womens RWC in 2017? No we feckin' shouldn't. As for Thomond - when exactly was it developed into a 26,000 capacity ground from 12 -`13,000.

It's very simple. The IRFU does not allocate lower level Internationals to the provinces on a fair basis.

Its common sense to put the games in an IRFU ground in the centre of Ireland where there are reasonable connections from all parts of Ireland. It would be a heck of a journey from Belfast to Cork, or vice versa.

Who asked you to thank the IRFU for the Women's World Cup, though in fairness its a bit of a drag for the citizens of Cork to get to Belfast, but I'm sure they won't complain about that

Thomond was developed into a 26K seater in 2008 and got 1 international game since then (v Canada) in 2009. The sale of naming rights to Aviva requires that no international games are played outside of Lansdowne Rd for the next 15 years.

I seem to recall that the IRFU agreed to stage some internationals in the redeveloped Maze Stadium, but since that fell through I'd imagine 18K isn't enough.

PS - you forgot to mention that Belfast got an underage world cup a few years ago.

jm08

seachto7 wrote: »

What are the Ulster branch doing about it? Have they campaigned or asked for more high profile games in Ulster.
I do think there should be more of the "lesser" internationals played in the provinces.
Until we hear the views of current or ex Ulster international players from a unionist background , we won't know what the current state of play is.
God only knows how Davy Tweed managed to put on a green shirt!

No internationals can be played outside the Aviva (as part of the naming rights deal). I think FAI have agreed the same for soccer.

stephen_n

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think Irish rugby could ever be accused of being inclusive. There are tentative steps being taken to expand the player base but just look at the number of people in the Irish squad who didn't attend a private school.

Mike Ross
Rory Best
Paul O'connel
Sean O'Brien
Connor Murray
Robbie Henshaw
Keith Earls

From the starting 15

twinytwo

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think Irish rugby could ever be accused of being inclusive. There are tentative steps being taken to expand the player base but just look at the number of people in the Irish squad who didn't attend a private school.

Thats hardly the IRFU's fault... for example in cork city.. every knows if you wanna play rugby you to pres or christians why? because they are massvie rugby schools the fact you have to pay fees is irrelevant..... how many schools dont and will never play rugby?

The secondary school i went to, when we asked about playing rugby we were told " there will be no british sports played in this school"

Cronin The Destroyer

Whilst success naturally breeds popular interest – it’s very easy for the reward-seeker to get behind a winner – it is worth noting that the Irish rugby team, whilst relatively successful in the Six Nations Championship in recent years, ultimately underachieve in a very small pool.

Rugby isn't football. The superiority New Zealand enjoy over every other rugby team in the world is unfathomable in almost any other team sport, except maybe Women's football in Ireland (Cork). Australia and South Africa's touring teams get beaten by Ireland more or less regularly, but yes they are basically on another level when it counts.

In Europe, we've won three Six Nations in the last few years, and come second in plenty of tournaments before that, picking up a lot of Triple Crowns along the way. Calling us underachievers might have a ring of truth to it historically, but at the moment we are more or less hitting at, or slightly above our weight, with the clear potential to improve exponentially.

The reason rugby is gaining in popularity is because it's very exciting to watch. England/Ireland games are epic, heroic affairs, with no quarter given, and players like Paul O'Connell, Rory Best, Sean O'Brien etc. are massive personalities that are easy to get behind. Certainly football for me just seem a lot duller.

Then again I have no interest in football, never had, but I went from being more or less totally uninterested in sport in 2003, to watching the entire World Cup that year and being totally in awe of how utterly engaging it was. I think I'm not the only person that just finds rugby more interesting to watch.