Dairy expansion

jocksie

Just wondering lads bout dairy expansion father currently milking 30 cows on 40 acre block around the yard with 12 heifers and we've the yearlings on an off farm(similar to contract rearing). Looking at ways to get up to maybe 80 on the future possibly maybe go with a beef bull and have half out and half fed indoors,zero grazing or bales,just wondering ye're thoughts am I mad or could it work?Currently have cubicles for 50 cows and a 6 unit parlour that would need an upgrade,cheers.

Feckthis

Not sure it's feasible to have 80 cows on 40 acre block.? Is their land close to you that you could rent to extend the milking block? I don't see how zero-grazing could help you unless you cut grass that the cows can't walk too and bring it in to them on the shoulder months. Some of the dairy lads here will be better able to advise you on what approach to take.

greenfield21

Will small systems be fecked in a year or two with prices. U would want to be fairly efficient to be going down the intensive route on small acreage.

jocksie

Sorry meant to say I'd be looking to rent another 40 to 50 acres for silage/zerograzing

Greengrass1

That's the area we had for milk block before parents sold amd bought bigger block all together.
Tbh if we still only had the 40 ac I wouldn't be farming with my parents. And they know that too. Just not enough out of it for 2 wages.

Would you think about leasing a block and going at it on your own milk 120 or so cows amd let you current milk block be used for heifers?

einn32

jocksie wrote: »

Just wondering lads bout dairy expansion father currently milking 30 cows on 40 acre block around the yard with 12 heifers and we've the yearlings on an off farm(similar to contract rearing). Looking at ways to get up to maybe 80 on the future possibly maybe go with a beef bull and have half out and half fed indoors,zero grazing or bales,just wondering ye're thoughts am I mad or could it work?Currently have cubicles for 50 cows and a 6 unit parlour that would need an upgrade,cheers.

A profit is achievable on that size dairy farm (40 acres) as a side project. Problem is you won't be able to live off it and will need another income source. Expansion may suit your situation if it increases your bottom line. Don't expand just because it's all the rage. It costs a lot to expand! At the end of the day you will only hit 80 cows too, i doubt it will be sufficient in to the future. A herd size of 150 will be required to attain the national average wage by 2020. But I don't know the area you are situated in and whether land is easily available etc. If you have the drive and work hard you can achieve a farm that will provide for you.

On the other hand If you had a job I reckon you could easily milk 30 cows too. You could have a nice life for yourself if you invest wisely in what you own and get it efficient.


Sorry if it sounds negative but it's reality! It seems to.be a common issue in Ireland with small farm size and access to extra land is not always there. Best of luck with your farming career whatever you choose !

jocksie

Thanks for the replys kinda confirms what I was thinking renting land around me wouldn't be easy especially a high number like 120ac

Greengrass1

jocksie wrote: »

Thanks for the replys kinda confirms what I was thinking renting land around me wouldn't be easy especially a high number like 120ac

Doesn't have to be around you. Travel 40 50 km easy. Your folks will be on home block to look after young stock if they are agreeable to moving thr milking operation to somewhere that's what I would have done if still only on a 40 ac block

farmerjj

einn32 wrote: »

A profit is achievable on that size dairy farm (40 acres) as a side project. Problem is you won't be able to live off it and will need another income source. Expansion may suit your situation if it increases your bottom line. Don't expand just because it's all the rage. It costs a lot to expand! At the end of the day you will only hit 80 cows too, i doubt it will be sufficient in to the future. A herd size of 150 will be required to attain the national average wage by 2020. But I don't know the area you are situated in and whether land is easily available etc. If you have the drive and work hard you can achieve a farm that will provide for you.

On the other hand If you had a job I reckon you could easily milk 30 cows too. You could have a nice life for yourself if you invest wisely in what you own and get it efficient.


Sorry if it sounds negative but it's reality! It seems to.be a common issue in Ireland with small farm size and access to extra land is not always there. Best of luck with your farming career whatever you choose !

I don't agree that you would need 150 cows in the future, don't think anybody can put a figure like that on it. There are diary herds of 50cows in the US and there still breaking even.But you might be better off checking with your neighbours if any of them are planning on renting out land in the future, if you could get another 30/40 acres bounding you then you have a good platform. But its not going to be easy if you,v to put in slurry storage and cubicles plus upgrading your parlour/passages.

einn32

farmerjj wrote: »

I don't agree that you would need 150 cows in the future, don't think anybody can put a figure like that on it. There are diary herds of 50cows in the US and there still breaking even.But you might be better off checking with your neighbours if any of them are planning on renting out land in the future, if you could get another 30/40 acres bounding you then you have a good platform. But its not going to be easy if you,v to put in slurry storage and cubicles plus upgrading your parlour/passages.

I read it in an article about a year ago and thought it was a good reference as to what farm size is required. I don't think you need 150 cows to break even. That figure was in relation to the national industrial wage in Ireland. I wish 30 cows provided a liveable income!

farmerjj

einn32 wrote: »

I read it in an article about a year ago and thought it was a good reference as to what farm size is required. I don't think you need 150 cows to break even. That figure was in relation to the national industrial wage in Ireland. I wish 30 cows provided a liveable income!

Ya but since the "soft landing" in the housing market, I take what these "experts" say with a grain of salt.

jocksie

Would be looking at it as a 5 year upgrade project,d boss would be talking bout retiring at that stage I'd keep working til then but if it's wasn't viable I'd need to stay working id fall under the young farmers section so grants should be available for another slatted tank,not sure if d plan is viable as couldn't see any land close by coming up any time soon so only option would be zerograze

kowtow

jocksie wrote: »

,not sure if d plan is viable as couldn't see any land close by coming up any time soon so only option would be zerograze

FWIW I suspect that despite the emphasis on grazed grass in Ireland there will be a steady increase in the number of zero grazers & following that a transition to more maize & concentrates on a fair number of farms.

Not trying to start a debate about the economic merits or otherwise of that approach - plenty of threads already covering that - but where land would have to be bought or rented anyway and the existing herd is small (which appears to be the OP situation) fixed costs and litres / man rather than variable may be the critical factor in whether a dairy farm can be economically self sufficient.

keep going

My sixpence worth is dont spend a penny at home but expand up to 50 cows with what you have but dont milk anymore on your current block.next you need to rent land to build a heifer rearing enterprise with the goal of building your herd , you wont have alot of cash out of it but the aim is to be a postion when you sell your heifers in the spring you can put that check in you pocket and use to fund the next lot not pay bills on the ones that are gone.when you are in that postion look at you options then but if you cant build yourself into that postion you have no business dreaming about things

jocksie

That's sound advice would you still go with the freisan bull or go beef on the heifer enterprise

keep going

jocksie wrote: »

That's sound advice would you still go with the freisan bull or go beef on the heifer enterprise

That all depends on the size of the farm you rent and how many heifers you want , might be worth looking at ai as you will be selling heifers and it would mean you would have a very good base herd when you eventually find the right option

frazzledhome

keep going wrote: »

My sixpence worth is dont spend a penny at home but expand up to 50 cows with what you have but dont milk anymore on your current block.next you need to rent land to build a heifer rearing enterprise with the goal of building your herd , you wont have alot of cash out of it but the aim is to be a postion when you sell your heifers in the spring you can put that check in you pocket and use to fund the next lot not pay bills on the ones that are gone.when you are in that postion look at you options then but if you cant build yourself into that postion you have no business dreaming about things

Sound advise. But nothing that'll depreciate

Zgrazers will be like Howard side spreaders in a few years, every haggard will have one with nettles growing out of it

3 the square

frazzledhome wrote: »

Sound advise. But nothing that'll depreciate

Zgrazers will be like Howard side spreaders in a few years, every haggard will have one with nettles growing out of it

why do u say that about zgrazers out of interest???

kowtow

frazzledhome wrote: »

Buy nothing that'll depreciate

Does that include land?

frazzledhome

3 the square wrote: »

why do u say that about zgrazers out of interest???

Because milking 3 a day would be easier than zgraze. I did it for years before it became a fad. Bales off out land fed back at tight times as cheap and more convenient.

Huge push from manufacturers re extra growth, extra litres, extra cows to carry even citing lifestyle as a positive????

jocksie

Thought it would be heavy on diesel anyway,with the extra slurry as well it sounds fairly labour intensive

Markcheese

150 cows to make industrial wage by 2020?
A lot of variables in t

Markcheese

150 cows to make industrial wage by 2020?
A lot of variables in that _ yeild _ debt -and pe

Markcheese

150 cows to make industrial wage by 2020?
A lot of variables in that _ yeild _ debt -and profit . Would have thought milking 50 odd profitably on well managed grass on the home block without big debts and maybe an out farm of quality heifers would give you a lot of practice and a lot of options for when your dad retires

Timmaay

Markcheese wrote: »

150 cows to make industrial wage by 2020?
A lot of variables in that _ yeild _ debt -and profit . Would have thought milking 50 odd profitably on well managed grass on the home block without big debts and maybe an out farm of quality heifers would give you a lot of practice and a lot of options for when your dad retires

Agreed that 50cows debt free are better than 100+ and borrowed to the gills, but the simple reality is neither is a good place to be, the problem with 50cows and no chance of expansion are them 50cows will still need to be milked twice a day day in day out, with very little change left over to hire a relief milker, whereas at least with the bigger numbers, and a proper business plan you will pay down the debt and end up with a good income in the future. your only hope with 50cows moving forward I think is if you have an income outside of farming, can you balance that with dairying is the million dollar question?

Markcheese

Timmaay wrote: »

Agreed that 50cows debt free are better than 100+ and borrowed to the gills, but the simple reality is neither is a good place to be, the problem with 50cows and no chance of expansion are them 50cows will still need to be milked twice a day day in day out, with very little change left over to hire a relief milker, whereas at least with the bigger numbers, and a proper business plan you will pay down the debt and end up with a good income in the future. your only hope with 50cows moving forward I think is if you have an income outside of farming, can you balance that with dairying is the million dollar question?

You're right . I meant more get the home farm up and humming managment wise while is dad is still working and the OP has his off farm job .
If he has heifers reared ( and hopefuly paid for ) as well, then he can see what direction he wants to go - who knows what his neighbours will be doing- orwhat interest rates will be -or if the Op has decided to follow some girl to australia ,life throws curveballs

tomwaterford

3 the square wrote: »

why do u say that about zgrazers out of interest???

Because they are a depressing looking prospect to be pulling in/out loads of grass everyday!
Who wants to spend all day bolixing around up on a tractor..

White Clover

tomwaterford wrote: »

Because they are a depressing looking prospect to be pulling in/out loads of grass everyday!
Who wants to spend all day bolixing around up on a tractor..

All day ?? Bit sensationalist there ? An hour morning and evening would bring in a lot of grass. What would depress me would be seeing the sh1te poached out of ground.

tomwaterford

White Clover wrote: »

All day ?? Bit sensationalist there ? An hour morning and evening would bring in a lot of grass. What would depress me would be seeing the sh1te poached out of ground.

Ugh the taughts of it...while I can see why fellows like using them...I question the economics of it...vs bought in feed


From what I know of them...they can be wicked soft and troublesome...just know this from word of mouth is all though

farmerjj

Zgrassers are a expensive way to feed grass but like most things they can have a place like on a wet year or at either side of the summer when grass is a little tighter.. But in saying that still wouldn't like to need one.

Timmaay

White Clover wrote: »

All day ?? Bit sensationalist there ? An hour morning and evening would bring in a lot of grass. What would depress me would be seeing the sh1te poached out of ground.

The problem is that for your 100 cows or whatever, suddenly 7 days a week, not only do you have to spend 3 to 4 hrs a day herding/milking the cows, you now have to put another hour or so on to it to it just to bring in grass. The majority of lads who area driving their milking block SR up above 3.5 cows/ha seem to be doing it with excess paddock bales, which are alot more flexible (cut when you have too much grass, feed out when too little), much quicker to feed out (a Bale takes 5mins to throw out), and less machinery needed once you get your contractor to make the bales. Its the option I'd pick any day of the week before I'd ZG.

tomwaterford

farmerjj wrote: »

Zgrassers are a expensive way to feed grass but like most things they can have a place like on a wet year or at either side of the summer when grass is a little tighter.. But in saying that still wouldn't like to need one.

If it's too wet for cows...is it too wet to zero graze??

farmerjj

tomwaterford wrote: »

If it's too wet for cows...is it too wet to zero graze??

The zgrazer would come in handy during a wet summer coz it would stop a lot of the poaching on the ground by cows sheltering next to a ditch, it would be more to stop that, ok if grounds heavy then obviously u wouldn't be able to use it

Milked out

tomwaterford wrote: »

If it's too wet for cows...is it too wet to zero graze??

Neighbour has a zgrazer passing most days autumn and spring. If it's wet enough for cows to do damage his machine ain't traveling either. Is drawing grass from rented land home to cows. Only reason to have one id say and at that silage bales cut after 5 weeks growtg may be better in terms of time management

White Clover

farmerjj wrote: »

Zgrassers are a expensive way to feed grass but like most things they can have a place like on a wet year or at either side of the summer when grass is a little tighter.. But in saying that still wouldn't like to need one.

Some good points there. Imo on heavy ground at the shoulders of the year they have they're place. If the place gets poached early in the year you're fooked for the remainder.

White Clover

Timmaay wrote: »

The problem is that for your 100 cows or whatever, suddenly 7 days a week, not only do you have to spend 3 to 4 hrs a day herding/milking the cows, you now have to put another hour or so on to it to it just to bring in grass. The majority of lads who area driving their milking block SR up above 3.5 cows/ha seem to be doing it with excess paddock bales, which are alot more flexible (cut when you have too much grass, feed out when too little), much quicker to feed out (a Bale takes 5mins to throw out), and less machinery needed once you get your contractor to make the bales. Its the option I'd pick any day of the week before I'd ZG.

If you have dry ground Tim. You will never need a zero grazer. Only applicable for heavy ground. I use one to prevent poaching and to increase utilisation.
Farming on boys ground and man's ground are totally different things !
Also, where are you going putting out one Bale in front of 100 cows ??

Another poster mentioned that they are soft. They are built lightly for a reason. Not suitable for constant roadwork.

White Clover

tomwaterford wrote: »

If it's too wet for cows...is it too wet to zero graze??

Definitely not the case if the nut behind the wheel has a brain. A case of drivers and screwdrivers !

browned

White Clover wrote: »

If you have dry ground Tim. You will never need a zero grazer. Only applicable for heavy ground. I use one to prevent poaching and to increase utilisation.
Farming on boys ground and man's ground are totally different things !
Also, where are you going putting out one Bale in front of 100 cows ??

Another poster mentioned that they are soft. They are built lightly for a reason. Not suitable for constant roadwork.

How're zgrazers more suited to heavy ground? I would have a fairly wet farm and in the spring I would often be able to travel ground with cows that I wouldn't dream of letting a tractor and fert spreader on. Wouldn't a tractor and trailer of grass cause as much if not more damage to heavy ground as cows or am I missing something.
A few in the discussion group are getting a contractor to zgrazers out farms in the shoulders to reduce demand and I can def see a benefit there

20silkcut

White Clover wrote: »

All day ?? Bit sensationalist there ? An hour morning and evening would bring in a lot of grass. What would depress me would be seeing the sh1te poached out of ground.

A neighbour of mine has one and he seems to be in and out all day with it between milkings.

whelan2

With poor milk price will it put the brakes on expansion plans?

freedominacup

whelan2 wrote: »

With poor milk price will it put the brakes on expansion plans?

Not here. Plans bssed on 29c. Looking to buy heifers atm. Might have found a way around an infrastructure prob which will help no end with the next bit of expansion.

frazzledhome

whelan2 wrote: »

With poor milk price will it put the brakes on expansion plans?

Not affecting plans here well flagged and budgeted in. 20-25% increase next year may even be more if heifers are value in spring.

Milked out

whelan2 wrote: »

With poor milk price will it put the brakes on expansion plans?

Not here either, extra cows calving down next with target to get to not changing, may take more time to get facilities up and running but growing a business will have to work around that altho some at home tell me I'm saying that too long now. Have parlour spending done must focus on grazing infrastructure next and work on silos and cubicles then. Have dry house and will use bales there to get me buy until all is in place. May keep an eye out for ground relatively local in next few years to get all heifers back off home block. First years repayments down this month so batten down the hatches next year a bit with regard to spending and push on after that

Timmaay

Going to expand away here also, and buy in heifers if I can get them for the right price (under 1100, early feb calving and high ebi/solids). But totally changed my tune from a year or so ago, going to be very little extra concrete put down, will out winter more stock (on sandy ground), heifers will be turned out feb 1st to make room for calving. I've been on some farm walks, with well more cows than I have now and wayyy less sheds. I'm at the stage where the 90 cows would probably provide a comfortable income, and uncontrolled expansion with now cubicles/tanks etc etc I'd question the logic of, however keep it as low cost as possible I think is the best route. Ultimately the aim is to be able to have someone in say 3days a week to cover milkings etc and to be able to come and go as I like, I think at the current 90 cows that would be pushing it.

Greengrass1

We'll be milking 40% more cows next yr than what we were 3 yrs ago when I arrived home.
Growing the grass now for them so definitely not slowing down. Possibly no increase in 17 I think we'll go on a culling spree and get rid of the dirt

patsy_mccabe

I'm expanding myself....must join the Gym.:cool:

kevthegaff

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I'm expanding myself....must join the Gym.:cool:

If i keep expanding i wont need any gym:-)

whelan2

milk price wont really affect me here either, actually in a better positon now than i was this time last year with high milk price. Never buying in stock again and just working away on increasing my numbers organically, have scc problem under control, now working on the johnes problem i bought in

mahoney_j

Ploughing on here too 56 topless cubicles and extra 120 foot of additional feed space also uncovered currently been installed .no need to buy in stock ,plenty on hand to cover my expansion plans ,within 2 years will have surplus cows/heifers to sell.less cattle too thank fook just 8/10 fr breeding Bulls will be kept after that just milkers ,maidens and heifer calves .hime block all now reseeded and 20% of out block so will concentrate on getting that up to speed over next few.heavy money now spent and have set up where I could manage 120 cows on my own with just relief milking and some short term spring help.trying to find more efficiencies is what I'm after now

mf240

Im putting in an extra 8 cubicles and a 20 ft neck rail At the moment (Lets hope i dont flood the market):D:D

mf240

jocksie wrote: »

Just wondering lads bout dairy expansion father currently milking 30 cows on 40 acre block around the yard with 12 heifers and we've the yearlings on an off farm(similar to contract rearing). Looking at ways to get up to maybe 80 on the future possibly maybe go with a beef bull and have half out and half fed indoors,zero grazing or bales,just wondering ye're thoughts am I mad or could it work?Currently have cubicles for 50 cows and a 6 unit parlour that would need an upgrade,cheers.

You could milk 70 on the 40 acres and use the outside block for silage. Put all cows in calf to beef and sell calves. Buy in replacments in milk in spring.

6 unit will be ok for 70 cows . Might be a bit slow if your keeping the job.

Spend a little as possible.