Henritta Street

imme

Henrietta Street, in central Dublin, off Dorset Street, is a strange place these days.

It was developed in Georgian times and was in its day the home of Bishops and Earls.

After the Act of Union it suffered a decline. The Lords who lived there moved as their House of Lords was no longer in Dublin.

The use of the buildings changed. A tenement developed in some of the houses.

The street was home to 850 people in the late 19th century.
In the 20th century the street emptied out as tenements became a thing of the past.

There are plans for a Tenement Museum on the street. During the 1913 Lock Out anniversary one of the buildings was opened as a living theatre style museum in that there were real life actors portraying tenement dwellers at the time of the Lock Out.

It was a powerful experience.

I'm not sure of the current plans but think they are connected to the 1916 commemoration.

These days the street has a surreal feel, it is empty most of the time, with just a few passersby going to the Kings Inns or just passing through.

As a school kid we were brought into one of the houses on the street which was a former tenement. A family afair was living in it.

I didn't appreciate the history or the significance of the building then.

Anyone got any experience of the street or any comment on its current state or how it should be changed/kept the same.

Sacksian

It's my favourite street in Dublin, for some reason. I often walk the long way into town just to go down it.

There's a lovely 5 minute documentary called "If Walls Could Speak" about a family living on the street, here: https://vimeo.com/63742898

There are some artist studios on the street still and I think King's Inns use a few of the buildings too. I'd prefer to see parts of it restored than redeveloped, but I can't imagine that would make economic sense for anyone to do.

NoCrackHaving

It's strange how a street so central has essentially sat empty since at least the 30's. I wonder who actually owns the various buildings anymore.

cgcsb

you would think that the City Council would take some social responsibility and refurbish them for residential use in order to tackle dereliction and the housing crisis. The private sector certainly won't do it because it's cheaper to build blocks of flats in Tallaght than it is to painstakingly restore Georgian buildings.

matc66

No. 7 is currently for sale
http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/7-henrietta-street-dublin-1-dublin/107180
I can't imagine who would buy it, it needs complete refurbishment on one hand but is on the record of protected structures from a planning point of view.
It's for 1.5 million but would cost huge sums of money to restore as it deserves to be.
I would love to be able to afford to buy it as I'm sure it would be an amazing home to live in.

listermint

What is this little window about?

Centre of image


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irishgrover

Sacksian wrote: »

It's my favourite street in Dublin, for some reason. I often walk the long way into town just to go down it.

There's a lovely 5 minute documentary called "If Walls Could Speak" about a family living on the street, here: https://vimeo.com/63742898

There are some artist studios on the street still and I think King's Inns use a few of the buildings too. I'd prefer to see parts of it restored than redeveloped, but I can't imagine that would make economic sense for anyone to do.

thanks for that. Lovely little quirky video....

andekwarhola

Always loved that street.

Love the way you have this beautiful, elegant, moldering street that's like walking back in time, surrounded cheek by jowl with corpo flats, garages, lock ups and Bolton street.

It would be great if the local authority could take it hand and restore it but I imagine the cost would be immense. The linked property for sale is in bits inside and still 1.2 million quid.

cgcsb

There's no way any money savy person would buy it, you spend 3 times the asking price on renovation. Even those that have that kind of money would not waste it so frivolously.

This is either going to be a job for the public purse or it'll be a case of let it rot until it falls down then do something cheap with the site. As has been DCC's policy in the past around Camden St and Thomas St although there were notions in those days of ploughing dual carriageways through those areas.

power pants

been for sale for years

not yet

Grew up down the road and played there most of my young life, I even went to a crèche there when I was 2-4 many years ago, The walk from the street into the ''temple'' is amazing and Strumpet city was filmed there a long time back...

imme

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

It's strange how a street so central has essentially sat empty since at least the 30's. I wonder who actually owns the various buildings anymore.

its a mixture.
some are owned by artists/preservers as other have said.

Some are owned by DCC afaik.

There was a scheme a couple of years whereby people could apply to take a building on at a nominal charge, the decision on who would get it was determined by their proposal. I hope I'm remembering that correctly.

One on the right hand side at the end away from Bolton Street is occupied by nuns. They used to have women borders, who would be college students etc. The building was open for Open House 2015 last weekend.

Across the street one or more buildings was, maybe still is, occupied by The Registry of Deeds.

The street overall though has such a quiet almost eerie atmosphere, it is like an oasis of sorts.

Jellybaby1

not yet wrote: »

…..The walk from the street into the ''temple'' is amazing and Strumpet city was filmed there a long time back...

Omigosh, you have taken me back to my childhood by mentioning the Temple. That's what it was called all right. While tracing my family tree I found distant relatives living in Henrietta Street tenements, so extremely poor Dubliners, hard to visualise the horrible conditions.

OP, there are threads on History & Heritage and Genealogy here about Henrietta Street, you might like to have a read. http://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?subforums=1&forum=330&query=Henrietta+street

Borzoi

imme wrote: »

One on the right hand side at the end away from Bolton Street is occupied by nuns. They used to have women borders, who would be college students etc. The building was open for Open House 2015 last weekend.
.

From memory the Daughters of Charity own numbers 8-10, and run a Creche, female student accommodation, youth training centre and and until recently an old folks home. They've retained the original features in the main rooms and stairs, but have struggled in other areas.

As other's have said the street had been used a lot for filming including Michael Collins

if I had the money, I'd love to renovate one of the buildings, but a few lottery wins would be needed

gaiscioch

Magical little street. I sought it out one day last year. The houses and their gardens are massive. It might be a good idea for the state to develop some effective tax exemption for rich people to do up the entire street in some sort of co-op format (i.e. doing up a single house among largely dilapidated houses would probably be a poor investment; doing up the entire street of houses could be a good investment) and that mansion over on Portland Row. Then again, as the people who'd be rich enough to undertake such restorations are probably tax exempt/non-resident anyway, it mightn't work. Perhaps give them loads of publicity and tell them how great they are to do such a heroic thing for heritage and their ego might pay for it. Never underestimate their need for recognition.

Actually, scrap all of the above. Watch this video and see how Na Píobairí Uilleann restored No. 15 Henrietta Street after it took it off Dublin City Council on a 99-year lease. In March 1984 ANCO (FÁS) volunteers began restoring the entire house. In 2006, the building closed again for further restoration, opening in 2007. Have a look at it now. Very impressive. A project like this on the other houses could get a lot of voluntarism and sponsorship from all sorts of craftsmen and businesses and keep the building in public ownership of some sort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1MuNhkPb6M

newacc2015

cgcsb wrote: »

you would think that the City Council would take some social responsibility and refurbish them for residential use in order to tackle dereliction and the housing crisis. The private sector certainly won't do it because it's cheaper to build blocks of flats in Tallaght than it is to painstakingly restore Georgian buildings.

You wouldnt have much change from spending €20-30million on the houses on the street. They are massive and in bits. Any renovations will have to be done to conservation standards. It as simply as hacking out the old plaster and putting in fresh new windows. All the money could be better spent elsewhere in the City. It would easily build a hundred new houses.

Even if they were refurbished. Do you give an entire 3000 sq foot house to a single family? As you cant hack it into smaller units. Do you really want to put a group of rent allowance tenants in this house and possibly trash it?

spurious

There are a couple of educational places in the nuns' buildings too.

hatrickpatrick

cgcsb wrote: »

DCC's policy in the past around Camden St and Thomas St although there were notions in those days of ploughing dual carriageways through those areas.

Tell me this is a joke... A dial carriageway through Thomas St?! How far was it going to go, all the way to Kilmainham?

Staph

listermint wrote: »

What is this little window about?

Centre of image


https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3524845,-6.2700548,3a,42.2y,337.85h,110.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSs4PzXFbhBbaIO-Y2PAHjA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

I think I read that it was a window for pigeons. Maybe carrier pigeons?

andekwarhola

gaiscioch wrote: »

Magical little street. I sought it out one day last year. The houses and their gardens are massive. It might be a good idea for the state to develop some effective tax exemption for rich people to do up the entire street in some sort of co-op format (i.e. doing up a single house among largely dilapidated houses would probably be a poor investment; doing up the entire street of houses could be a good investment)

Can't really see people with that kind of wealth wanting to live in that area/surroundings.

It'd be fantastic to have it restored for the public but as said, it's a massive, expensive undertaking.

cgcsb

newacc2015 wrote: »

You wouldnt have much change from spending €20-30million on the houses on the street. They are massive and in bits. Any renovations will have to be done to conservation standards. It as simply as hacking out the old plaster and putting in fresh new windows. All the money could be better spent elsewhere in the City. It would easily build a hundred new houses.

Even if they were refurbished. Do you give an entire 3000 sq foot house to a single family? As you cant hack it into smaller units. Do you really want to put a group of rent allowance tenants in this house and possibly trash it?

The goal wouldn't be just providing social housing, it'd be tackling dereliction. And it wouldn't be 'rent allowance tenants it'd be permanent social housing. Or of course they could even be rented on the private market.

You can of course separate it into units provided it's done properly.

cgcsb

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Tell me this is a joke... A dial carriageway through Thomas St?! How far was it going to go, all the way to Kilmainham?

Possibly connect with the existing N4 at some point and go right up to Christchurch then through some bulldozed parts of what is now Tample Bar, thankfully the strong willed people of Dublin and the lack of money in the state coffers prevented such car-centric Americanized 70's nonsense, but DCC was successful in causing significant dereliction between Camden St/Clanbrassil St and Christchurch.

Cities in the UK took much worse punishment in that era, just look at Belfast for example, communities and thriving local economies were annihilated to build the Westlink dual carriageway through the city centre. In fact to this day Belfast City Council is 'reserving land' i.e. encouragin dereliction around Ormeau Avenue to allow for a new southern inner ring road.

not yet

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Omigosh, you have taken me back to my childhood by mentioning the Temple. That's what it was called all right. While tracing my family tree I found distant relatives living in Henrietta Street tenements, so extremely poor Dubliners, hard to visualise the horrible conditions.

OP, there are threads on History & Heritage and Genealogy here about Henrietta Street, you might like to have a read. http://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?subforums=1&forum=330&query=Henrietta+street

Yep, spent many a happy day in the 70s-80s up the temple.. Although we tried to climb the front of the Kings Inn back in the day,whereas today I look and appreciate it for it's beauty.

crushproof

cgcsb wrote: »

Possibly connect with the existing N4 at some point and go right up to Christchurch then through some bulldozed parts of what is now Tample Bar, thankfully the strong willed people of Dublin and the lack of money in the state coffers prevented such car-centric Americanized 70's nonsense, but DCC was successful in causing significant dereliction between Camden St/Clanbrassil St and Christchurch.

Cities in the UK took much worse punishment in that era, just look at Belfast for example, communities and thriving local economies were annihilated to build the Westlink dual carriageway through the city centre. In fact to this day Belfast City Council is 'reserving land' i.e. encouragin dereliction around Ormeau Avenue to allow for a new southern inner ring road.

As far as I recall there was meant to be an inner dual carriageway ring road, including a huge flyover over the Liffey leading down from Christchurch.
Glasgow especially suffered in the UK, city centre surrounded by motorways.

It's a shame to see homes on Henrietta Street in such a state, especially considering how beautiful it is. If European cities can have well preserved, lived in 18th century townhouses, then why does it seem so difficult for us to do?

miamee

Number 12 was open at the weekend for Open House and I went with a friend for a look. There was no tour or info but the best I can gather is that someone has moved in and is attempting to restore it piece by piece. So far there is very little done to it though judging by someof the signs, there have been some small exhibitions and music events in it.

Basement- possibly the kitchen


Basement window


Garden door

miamee

A couple more pics

cassid

listermint wrote: »

What is this little window about?

Centre of image


https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3524845,-6.2700548,3a,42.2y,337.85h,110.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSs4PzXFbhBbaIO-Y2PAHjA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

I wish you did not point it now, you now have me thinking what the window was for ? I remember reading that human waste and whatever used to get throw out the windows, that was my first thought but thats probably not it.

There is a facebook page called Henrietta st, which has a good few followers. Its a beautiful street and have sneaked a look into the odd letterbox with the children when boring them about the history of the street

Cathmandooo

Those photos are brilliant miamee, I particularly love the last one with the man standing in the window, the height of those windows :eek:

It's a fascinating street. I'm curious about that unusual little window too, the window to the left of the door is unusual also. If you look at the myplan of the street you can see that house steals a triangular piece of the neighbour, which would house those windows. Strange!

It's labelled James Bryson House on the little map attached.

schemingbohemia

There is a tax incentive scheme for doing up houses like this
http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/Planning/Documents/LCIFAQs.pdf

Living City Incentive

Cathmandooo

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Omigosh, you have taken me back to my childhood by mentioning the Temple. That's what it was called all right. While tracing my family tree I found distant relatives living in Henrietta Street tenements, so extremely poor Dubliners, hard to visualise the horrible conditions.

OP, there are threads on History & Heritage and Genealogy here about Henrietta Street, you might like to have a read. http://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?subforums=1&forum=330&query=Henrietta+street

Any idea why it was called the Temple? Was the Temple the grounds of Kings Inn? The cul-de-sac in behind Kings Inn is Temple Cottages, I assume it's related to what you called the Temple?

Jellybaby1

I think the garden/park around the King's Inns was called 'The Temple Gardens' but I don't know why exactly. It is a fabulous building and thank goodness it was not damaged during 1916 like the GPO and the Four Courts. At least, I don't remember hearing that it was a target at that time. Anyway its a great treasure to have. More information here: https://www.kingsinns.ie/about/history

newacc2015

cgcsb wrote: »

You can of course separate it into units provided it's done properly.

You can. But butchering the house into single units is worst than having it run down and water tight. Its kinda like saying the mona lisa looks a bit faded. It would look better with a fresh paint job, but you are destroying the character for face value.

Why would you butcher the house to put them into single units. Ripping up floors and cut up walls to put in electric and water. I would be nice but its destroying them

quadrifoglio verde

schemingbohemia wrote: »

There is a tax incentive scheme for doing up houses like this
http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/Planning/Documents/LCIFAQs.pdf

Living City Incentive

So say I spend 1 million on the house to refurb it.
I can then claim a tax credit of 100k a year for 10 years.
So in affect the state pays for the refurbishment of my palatial pad that just so happens to be of some historical value?
Obivously id need a 250K salary or more to get full advantage of said tax credit, but only someone with a salary like that would be spending that much on a refurb.

Or have I got that arseways?

gaiscioch

Cathmandooo wrote: »

Any idea why it was called the Temple? Was the Temple the grounds of Kings Inn? The cul-de-sac in behind Kings Inn is Temple Cottages, I assume it's related to what you called the Temple?

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I think the garden/park around the King's Inns was called 'The Temple Gardens' but I don't know why exactly.

Perhaps "Temple Gardens" in Dublin is some mimetic representation of the Inner Temple and Middle Temple in London and specifically an Irish version of the Inner & Middle Temple Gardens there?

"The 'Temple' in the name Temple Gardens comes, via the Knight's Templar, from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. When their order was dissolved the site passed to the the Knights Hospitaller and then, in 1608, to the barristers. It remains the HQ of the legal profession and they have done a very good job in conserving its character. Walking down a narrow alley from Fleet Street into the Temple gives a real sense of passing from Medieval London to Eighteenth Century London, still pleasantly free of vehicular traffic. The grand terrace houses, now barristers' chambers, have an eighteenth century character. The garden spaces are managed like eighteenth century garden squares..."

newacc2015

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

So say I spend 1 million on the house to refurb it.
I can then claim a tax credit of 100k a year for 10 years.
So in affect the state pays for the refurbishment of my palatial pad that just so happens to be of some historical value?
Obivously id need a 250K salary or more to get full advantage of said tax credit, but only someone with a salary like that would be spending that much on a refurb.

Or have I got that arseways?

Well if you were doing a modest refurbishment on your family home of say 5k to I think 70K. You can claim 13.5% back in income tax credits anyway

This tax break that the other poster mentioned, I imagine will be a flop. Living over the shop scheme wasnt really popular at all

schemingbohemia

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

So say I spend 1 million on the house to refurb it.
I can then claim a tax credit of 100k a year for 10 years.
So in affect the state pays for the refurbishment of my palatial pad that just so happens to be of some historical value?
Obivously id need a 250K salary or more to get full advantage of said tax credit, but only someone with a salary like that would be spending that much on a refurb.

Or have I got that arseways?

That's my understanding of it.

I know we're talking about Henrietta Street but the scheme goes a lot wider. Mates of mine missed out by only a few hundred metres from being in the scheme and they live off the South Circular Road, would've been very handy for them as they're doing a big refurbishment at the moment.

You have to remember that you're not getting it for free, there's the financing costs at the start or just a big cash injection that the benefits of will be recovered over 10 years.

mydarkstar

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

So say I spend 1 million on the house to refurb it.
I can then claim a tax credit of 100k a year for 10 years.
So in affect the state pays for the refurbishment of my palatial pad that just so happens to be of some historical value?
Obivously id need a 250K salary or more to get full advantage of said tax credit, but only someone with a salary like that would be spending that much on a refurb.

Or have I got that arseways?

Unfortunately, it is not a "tax credit". It is a "deduction from total income". See page 6, "4. How Does It Work", first paragraph.

If it were a tax credit it would reduce your tax liability for each year in the way you mention - e.g:

Taxable Income €250,000 @ 40% = €100,000 tax payable less €100,000 LC credit = € 0 tax payable

However, as it is a deduction from total income, you simply take the relevant deduction off your taxable income before subjecting it to tax. e.g.

Taxable Income €250,000
less deduction €100,000
net taxable €150,000 @ 40% = 60,000 tax payable

So, on an income of €250k you were due to pay €100k in tax. When you claim a Living City deduction of €100,000 your tax bill reduces from €100k to €60k. (saving you €40,000 per year)

I'm oversimplifying it as there are obviously 20% rates to take into account. But, in short, you get relief at your top rate of tax in each year.

NoCrackHaving

newacc2015 wrote: »

Well if you were doing a modest refurbishment on your family home of say 5k to I think 70K. You can claim 13.5% back in income tax credits anyway

This tax break that the other poster mentioned, I imagine will be a flop. Living over the shop scheme wasnt really popular at all

Wasn't there big insurance problems with those units? I'm pretty sure even now insurance premiums for flats over shops are very high due to the potential for water leaks etc. in old buildings.

quadrifoglio verde

mydarkstar wrote: »

Unfortunately, it is not a "tax credit". It is a "deduction from total income". See page 6, "4. How Does It Work", first paragraph.

If it were a tax credit it would reduce your tax liability for each year in the way you mention - e.g:

Taxable Income €250,000 @ 40% = €100,000 tax payable less €100,000 LC credit = € 0 tax payable

However, as it is a deduction from total income, you simply take the relevant deduction off your taxable income before subjecting it to tax. e.g.

Taxable Income €250,000
less deduction €100,000
net taxable €150,000 @ 40% = 60,000 tax payable

So, on an income of €250k you were due to pay €100k in tax. When you claim a Living City deduction of €100,000 your tax bill reduces from €100k to €60k. (saving you €40,000 per year)

I'm oversimplifying it as there are obviously 20% rates to take into account. But, in short, you get relief at your top rate of tax in each year.

Cheers for the clear up, New it was too good to be true

Confucius say

It's an old run down Georgian street. What's the big deal? Even if it was done up its still in the middle of a kip of an area.

mydarkstar

The incentive is still fairly good; just not perfect! I'd love to see the street done up properly. I know people say it's not in a great neighbourhood with Dorset Street and Dominic, but neither is North Great Georges Street and that street is looking good these days - a far cry from 20/30 years ago.

I must go for a wander around Henrietta Street soon.

power pants

nothing wrong with dominick street, particularly they upper part

quadrifoglio verde

Confucius say wrote: »

It's an old run down Georgian street. What's the big deal? Even if it was done up its still in the middle of a kip of an area.

It's the oldest Georgian street in Dublin that's been left untouched by modern development. You walk down it and it's like walking into something from 150 years ago.
What's not to like?

mydarkstar

power pants wrote: »

nothing wrong with dominick street, particularly they upper part

I never said there was anything "wrong" with Dominick Street. Just that it is not a "great" neighbourhood, as it has all the issues that you would expect of inner city Dublin - people being drunk/high in public and general antisocial behaviour. I live in this area, I see this a lot. It also has all the conveniences of living in the inner city. All my original post meant was it doesn't have the leafy kerb appeal of parts of Ballsbridge or Rathgar.

power pants

issues of?

please explain more.thanks

mydarkstar

power pants wrote: »

issues of?

please explain more.thanks

Edited my original post. Posted accidentally before finished.

power pants

I lived on upper dominick street for years.I found the residents in general were nice enough but did get a few drunks etc walking through.

anyway, I used to like going into the law society park area then walking down henrietta street that way. Some nice houses in the park too which are done up and people living in there too.

mydarkstar

I must go for a walk in the law society park soon, possibly over the weekend (weather permitting). This thread has whetted my appetite for a wander. I like the area in general - as you say the locals in general are grand, it's the passing-through drunks and idiots that have made me weary over the years.

Does anyone think that the area around Henrietta Street might be more likely to be regenerated given that the new Luas to Grangegorman will be passing nearby?
Am I just being unrealistic??

Spanish Eyes

I thought I read something about DCC taking over one of those magnificent (though faded) houses for a museum of social history of the time?

Anyone know more?

mydarkstar

Spanisheyes, there was an article in the Irish Times in April 2015 about the plan to open No.14 Henrietta Street as a museum.
It says DCC hope to open it by late 2016. See the video within this link.

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/museum-of-dublin-tenement-life-set-for-henrietta-street-1.2194311

It's wonderful and sad to see inside the house in it's current state.

I'm in two minds about part of what the guy in the video says - that they don't want to restore the whole house to Georgian splendour as that would be saying that is the only period worth honouring. I appreciate they want to show all the stages of life the building has seen, including the tenement period. This makes sense given that it is to be a museum. But I just so love these houses when sympathetically restored. A museum is a wonderful use for the property though.

Hard to imagine all the people that passed through that front door, and yet only the people from the early days are properly remembered.

I came across this thread by chance...
My Mother was born in Henrietta street on 29 February 1932 ( yes a real leap year baby)

Apparently it was snowing the night she was born. As was the custom she was born at home and her father stood outside the door all night in the snow, as men seemingly weren't supposed to be around at a childbirth.

I don't know which number and sadly my Mum now has dementia so wouldn't remember.
I am looking forward to the census records from the later years going online so I can trace more details. I know the family (she was one of 11 ) moved to Crumlin when she was very young.