Stolen Valor is it a problem in Ireland

AllthingsCP

I personally have never encounter any case's of stolen valor in Ireland, I image that compared to United Kingdom or United States or any country that have had major involvement in Iraq or Afghan as those seem to be the big ones for these types to say ''Iv been their''

So have you uncounted any wannabe's, Or called out any??

4ensic15

I have a work colleague who turns up at some functions wearing medals that he must have got from a lucky bag. I would think that medals should only be worn on a uniform and vets should be allowed wear uniform on approved occasions. The provisions of the Defence Act would cover the wearing of non issued medals.

dandyelevan

Who is to 'police' any wannabee wearing un-earned military medals in Ireland?
Nobody.
These medals can, sadly, be bought for a pittance on various websites and worn blatantly without challenge.
And no, I didn't 'call out' any I've met wearing Irish military /U.N. medals that they've not earned (as I have) and I've met quite a few.
Nor can I understand why anybody would do such.
Some sort of fetish maybe?

But at the end of the day nobody really cares.

AllthingsCP

But at the end of the day nobody really cares.[/QUOTE]

Maybe that should of been my question compared to USA and UK do Irish people generally care?

Negative_G

I would guess that the general public couldn't give a fiddlers as the majority have no idea about anything defence related.

There are Walter mittys everywhere. Its a problem in many countries. They are prevelant here but not in any great numbers as the military here aren't viewed with the same respect as they are in the US/UK.

As someone has already said, who cares.

As an aside, what I don't understand are these 'vets' which seem to be quite active on certain online social media about how the state should be 'looking after veterans'. Serving 5 years and spending six months in the Lebanon does not entitle someone to special treatment. Nor should someone expect special treatment for serving 20 years after they've gotten a pension from it.

ODEON123

Big difference between us and the USA is that they are all mostly mad about patriotism and their soldiers going to protect their country we arent like that at all here although they are serving the country not to the extent of the USA since we just do UN peacekeeping missions and dont fight wars most military personnel go unoticed so nobody cares about stolen valor because it makes no difference if your in a uniform or not

dandyelevan

In my humble opinion as a 30 yr veteran, as I said, nobody really cares.
The average Irish citizen don't know the difference between a Military Service Medal and a Miraculous Medal.

Gun_money

To say no one cares is a bit harsh. Fellow members if the defense forces care, well take care enough to take the p*ss, recently I seen a guy with all due respect joined when he was young spent his life in the army, has Congo, Cyprus and leb trips. 21 year pdf service and peace. And a 21 An FCA medal. So he must have joined the army when he was 2 or 3 years of age, to be able to wear all those. All well mounted.

Under these a host of association medals or association produced medals.

Manic Moran

4ensic15 wrote: »

I would think that medals should only be worn on a uniform and vets should be allowed wear uniform on approved occasions.

The wearing of medals in civvies on certain occasions is time-honoured, though I'm not sure what the official policy is in Ireland specifically. If there is an official prohibition, it is publicly broken every time you see Irish UN veterans wearing them. Miniature medals would not strike me as being inappropriate at formal dos such as on a tux. The Irish do, however, seem to have a bit of an issue with people randomly having uniforms, supposedly for security reasons. (I've still my #1s in the closet, but anyway).

The US says the following:
"Retired personnel and former members of the Army (as described above) may wear all categories of medals described in this regulation on appropriate civilian clothing. This includes clothes designed for veteran and patriotic organizations on Veteran’s Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature. Personnel may wear either full-sized or miniature medals. Personnel who wear medals on civilian clothes should place the medals on the clothing in approximately the same location and in the same manner as for the Army uniform, so they look similar to medals worn on the Army uniform."

On the other hand, the method you suggest is how it is also done in the US. Retirees are officially allowed wear either the current uniform, or the uniform as it appeared on their retirement date (Which makes an interesting problem: There is no indicator on the uniform of a retiree) War veterans are also allowed wear uniforms on appropriate events.

Zambia

The defence act 1903 covers it here for both claiming to have served overseas and wearing medals not earned.

DEFENCE ACT 1903 - SECT 80A

Falsely representing to be returned soldier, sailor or airman
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if:

(a) the person represents himself or herself to be a returned soldier, sailor or airman; and

(b) the representation is false.

Penalty: 30 penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months, or both.

(2) For the purposes of this section:

(a) returned soldier means a person who has served abroad during any war as a member of any Military Force raised in Australia or in any other part of the British Empire, or as a member of the Military Forces of any Ally of Great Britain;

(b) returned sailor means a person who has served abroad during any war as a member of any Naval Force raised in Australia or in any other part of the British Empire, or as a member of the Naval Forces of any Ally of Great Britain; and

(c) returned airman means a person who has served abroad during any war as a member of any Air Force, air service or flying corps raised in Australia or in any other part of the British Empire or as a member of the air forces of any Ally of Great Britain.

DEFENCE ACT 1903 - SECT 80B

Improper use of service decorations
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if:

(a) the person wears a service decoration; and

(b) the person is not the person on whom the decoration was conferred.

Penalty: 30 penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months, or both.

(2) Where the person upon whom a service decoration was conferred has died, it is not an offence against subsection (1) for a member of the family of that person to wear the service decoration if the member of the family does not represent himself or herself as being the person upon whom the decoration was conferred.

Note: The defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (2). See subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code .

(3) It is not an offence against subsection (1) for a person to wear a service decoration in the course of a dramatic or other visual representation (including such a representation to be televised) or in the making of a cinematograph film.

Note: The defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (3). See subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code .

(4) A person shall not falsely represent himself or herself as being the person upon whom a service decoration has been conferred.

Penalty: 30 penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months, or both.

(5) A person shall not deface or destroy, by melting or otherwise, a service decoration.

Penalty: 60 penalty units or imprisonment for 12 months, or both.

dandyelevan

As the old Army joke went - 'An Army medal will get you a free pint in any Irish Pub, if you hand in a fiver along with it.'

mikeym

The problem in America is that phonies are taking advantage of Military Discounts and benefits which they arent entitled to.

Heres the poster boy of Stolen Valor in action.

ODEON123

mikeym wrote: »

The problem in America is that phonies are taking advantage of Military Discounts and benefits which they arent entitled to.

Heres the poster boy of Stolen Valor in action.

Hahaha that video cracked me up

AbusesToilets

Negative_G wrote: »

I would guess that the general public couldn't give a fiddlers as the majority have no idea about anything defence related.

There are Walter mittys everywhere. Its a problem in many countries. They are prevelant here but not in any great numbers as the military here aren't viewed with the same respect as they are in the US/UK.

As someone has already said, who cares.

As an aside, what I don't understand are these 'vets' which seem to be quite active on certain online social media about how the state should be 'looking after veterans'. Serving 5 years and spending six months in the Lebanon does not entitle someone to special treatment. Nor should someone expect special treatment for serving 20 years after they've gotten a pension from it.

Perhaps it's because you haven't experienced the toll a military career takes on a person, both physically and socially? You give up a lot of yourself to serve, time and health that you don't get back. Asking that the government dedicated a relatively small amount financially to take care of those who have served is not asking too much.

The situation in the US, with the VA system and forced downsizing is pretty deplorable and the government should be taken to task over it.

discus

AllthingsCP wrote: »

So have you uncounted any wannabe's, Or called out any??

I had some numpty on the train tell me all the great thing he does with his regiment... which was my regiment... And I'd never seen his face in my life. He couldn't name me anyone from the regiment either.

Negative_G

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Perhaps it's because you haven't experienced the toll a military career takes on a person, both physically and socially? You give up a lot of yourself to serve, time and health that you don't get back. Asking that the government dedicated a relatively small amount financially to take care of those who have served is not asking too much.

The situation in the US, with the VA system and forced downsizing is pretty deplorable and the government should be taken to task over it.

By signing the dotted line you accept the lifestyle associated with the job. Your time is rewarded financially as with any job.

What about An Garda Siochana, the fire service, prison officers. The countless professions in the private sector who work in hazardous conditions with unsocialable hours.

I'm not discrediting any retired or serving personnel but when you sign on the dotted line you have a reasonable idea of what to expect. You carry out your job and get paid for it, you get a Military Service allowance, duty allowances, overseas allowance.

My original comment was directed at Irish soldiers as opposed to the US forces.

AbusesToilets

Negative_G wrote: »

By signing the dotted line you accept the lifestyle associated with the job. Your time is rewarded financially as with any job.

What about An Garda Siochana, the fire service, prison officers. The countless professions in the private sector who work in hazardous conditions with unsocialable hours.

I'm not discrediting any retired or serving personnel but when you sign on the dotted line you have a reasonable idea of what to expect. You carry out your job and get paid for it, you get a Military Service allowance, duty allowances, overseas allowance.

My original comment was directed at Irish soldiers as opposed to the US forces.

Well, you say you know what you're signing up for but a there are plenty of things left in the dark. Take health issues. If you are combat arms, you might go in with the intellectual recognition that you could be shot, blown up etc in a conflict. You likely don't give any thought to things like training injuries, say from airborne ops, or falling off a fast rope. Humping a ruck up and down mountains will do wonders for your back and knees.

How about the more slow developing issues, such as long term heavy metal poisoning from lead exposure, long term radio wave exposure from IED jammers, burn pit exposure.

There are the side effects from medication use (many of which aren't subject to the same controls in the military that they are under in the civilian world), Lariam/ Methloquinne being a very visible one recently.

Military life can be incredibly taxing on the body, in ways that have little to no comparison in the civilian world. You can have a full retirement at the age of 40 (in the US anyway), but your body will probably be closer to 60 when you're done with it all. When you see the compensation that politicians and civil servants get, the rather meager benefits on the table for veterans are not onerous.

tac foley

I have the active brain of a 25-year-old, the over-active mind of a twelve year-old and the worn-out body of a ninety-year-old.

I'm bald and mostly deaf, and getting my ankles to actually ank first thing in the morning is a hit and miss task.

I have to admit that when I joined the Army, I really wasn't expecting to spend quite so much of my time being blown up and shot at by my distant relatives either - it was bad enough having to meet with them at Christmas.

Still, I had some really great times, even if a lot of it was at the expense of having some really bad times by way of compensation - after all, if you can't take a joke then you shouldn't have joined.

And ANYBODY who joined up ANY army in the belief that the civilian population gives a single flying **** about you during and/or after your service has concluded must also believe strongly in the Tooth Fairy.

tac

dandyelevan

I feel your pain Tac.
Thanks to my service I've got severe Tinnitus, I'm deaf as a pillar post, got a gammy twisted leg & little use of my right arm from the shoulder down thanks to an Israeli 155 mm near miss. I have been, over many trips to Lebanon, an unwilling guest of (and target practice for) the Israeli DF, their Christian Militia buddies, the PLO, many and varied highwaymen...(Oh yes, we had those in Lebanon too, mostly Syrians armed to the teeth) and eventually the Hezbollah.
All swore they were going to kill ole Dandy, in various but painful ways...the Hezbollah had me dig my own grave beside the road north of Tyre. (They kindly provided a shovel and pick-axe...well, it WAS Christmas time of year!)
Still...it gave me something to do while I waited...
But seriously, like many more old sweats I've looked the devil in the eye and stared the grim reaper in the face many times, but hey, they told me all about that before I signed on the 'dotted line.' I remember answering, 'bring it on', to the smiling Recruiting Sgt. (Not)
Of course I got well rewarded with a few cheap medals that languish in a tin box in the shed...and a Wounds Pension (paid by the UN God Bless them) of 340.00 euro a month.
But then, I'm sometimes reminded by internet posts (that having being in the Irish Army) I wasn't a 'real' soldier after all. Therefore..that Israeli 155 mm Arty shell wasn't real either!


Maybe the whole thing was a type of Bobby Ewing shower dream..?

Negative_G

AbusesToilets wrote: »

When you see the compensation that politicians and civil servants get, the rather meager benefits on the table for veterans are not onerous.

That is one point I agree with you on wholeheartedly.

We'll have to disagree on some others, but I digress.

Those who wear medals that they haven't earned should be called out on it at every opportunity.

tac foley

dandyelevan - G*d Bless you, Sir, and thank you for your service.

Stand up straight and look 'em in the eye - you did it, and they didn't. Nobody who hasn't 'been there and done it' can have the foggiest notion of what it's like - I don't care how many epic stories they have read.

tac

BigDuffman

dandyelevan wrote: »

I'm sometimes reminded by internet posts (that having being in the Irish Army) I wasn't a 'real' soldier after all. Therefore..that Israeli 155 mm Arty shell wasn't real either!

Dandy, great post (ever think of writing it down, in a longer version? I've always thought a few of the auld shweats should get together do out some short stories and make a book it..!)

It's people like yourself that we need ringing in and putting manners on idiots like Boylan and Prendeville on the lowest common denominator radio shows. Serving members of the DF can't / won't engage with them. So as a result they go unanswered with their claims of " fake soldiers" or "potato peelers and boot polishers".

The reason the public don't care is that they have no idea about what the DF have done and experienced over seas. The actions of DF in Battle of the Tunnel and At Tiri are virtually unknown. As far as they are concerned the only thing the army do is sun themselves in the leb. Let the people know!

dandyelevan

BigDuffman wrote: »

Dandy, great post (ever think of writing it down, in a longer version? I've always thought a few of the auld shweats should get together do out some short stories and make a book it..!)

It's people like yourself that we need ringing in and putting manners on idiots like Boylan and Prendeville on the lowest common denominator radio shows. Serving members of the DF can't / won't engage with them. So as a result they go unanswered with their claims of " fake soldiers" or "potato peelers and boot polishers".

The reason the public don't care is that they have no idea about what the DF have done and experienced over seas. The actions of DF in Battle of the Tunnel and At Tiri are virtually unknown. As far as they are concerned the only thing the army do is sun themselves in the leb. Let the people know!

Waaay ahead of you there.
I DID write 'the book' some years ago, soon after retiring.
I had enough of keeping my mouth shut, but had kept my ears open (like all soldiers must) I also had eyes to see, and still do!

Ignorant terms like "but we only do peacekeeping" sicken me, but ....


'Stolen Valor - in Ireland ?
One could steal one of our soldiers, and it wouldn't raise an eybrow here.
Soldiers like Stephen Joyce kidnapped (Lebanon) and another in the Congo still missing, and Irish people worry about the 'Irish Teen' chap Halawi in Egypt.

By they way, the book sold well. Was in Easons, etc for quite a long time.
One Bookshop in Galway refused to stock it.

Negative_G

dandyelevan wrote: »

Ignorant terms like "but we only do peacekeeping" sicken me, but ....

Why does it sicken you? The PDF is largely a humanitarian peacekeeping force. This is obviously no fault of the men and women of the DF, but a function of government policy.

It would be grossly innacurate to try and portray what the DF do in comparison to other conventional war fighting nations.

The Army's primary function despite being second to 'Defence against armed aggression' is ATCP, closely followed by peace support operations.

I know a number of people who have served across the middle east and africa and I have yet to hear one of them describe any part of it as 'staring the devil in the face'. Times change of course.

The troops on the ground are bound by the political policy in place at the time which means the nation will never have a capable war fighting army. That's just what policy dictates. Unless we suddenly change from being a non aligned nation outside of the EU that is unliley to change.

dandyelevan

Well, Negative... I'm not going to be drawn into an argument, or bandy words with you, as you obviously know more about the subject than I do.

As far as I'm concerned, Irish Government Policy with regards to UNIFIL stopped at Dublin airport and we didn't see or hear from any of them again until they showed up for a photo op at the funerals of the 49 Irish that died in Lebanon.
I served in Lebanon during the height of the Civil War, 1978 to 1995, and didn't notice anything 'conventional' about the war there. (Except when the British and Americans came to set up the Multinational Force in 1982 (I was there for that too.) They brought their conventional war methods with them. (See how that went?) I think they lasted a few months.
The Israeli Invasion. I was there for that also... all of it. Their 'conventional' methods didn't work either, just made our job that bit harder and more dangerous when they left with their tails between their legs.
And yes, if you were at Attiri when the Christian Militia herded the contents of two Primary schools in front of their M113 towards the Irish 'A' Company positions in an attempt to over-run them; faced the same Militia attempting to machine-gun you into the sea at Naqoura; being ambushed and captured by armed malcontents in the Tyre Pocket, or being caught under an artillery barrage fired from Gate 12 inside Israel, the fire being directed onto your position by their allies the same 'Christian' Militia, then you would have looked the Devil in the eye, and the Grim Reaper was never too far away either.
I guess you had to be there, as they say.

tac foley

Dandyelevan - I'd be proud and honoured get a signed copy of your book. PM me with details.

tac

KingBrian2

I have to disagree with the OP Irish troops serving in the Lebanon, Congo or the Mediterranean hold themselves in distinction as did many former 1916 rising citizens showing great valor in their day.

cajonlardo

If you were to falsely claim service in Ireland you would be likely to run into someone who knows better.

For instance, Walt comes on here and says he has in the Leb in '84. Wouldn't be long before someone who was out on that trip pipes in.

In real life I was working for an international company a million miles removed from my army experience. I cut my hand and uttered a very distinct expletive I had only ever heard in my old unit and a young fella asked me immediately if I'd been in the Army. He had 2 cousins in my coy and said he'd only ever heard that expression from one of them. What I am getting at is, even if you don't run off your mouth to an actual soldier - nearly everyone in Ireland either knows someone in the army or is related to someone.Feck it, a mate of mine was lost out in the countryside in Japan and became very seriously dehydrated. Who rescued him? An ex 2nd field engineer sergeant who had done recruit training with my father. They are everywhere I tell you

BigDuffman

tac foley wrote: »

Dandyelevan - I'd be proud and honoured get a signed copy of your book. PM me with details.

tac

Yeah me too Dandy. PM details please if you don't want it public.

Negative_G

dandyelevan wrote: »

Well, Negative... I'm not going to be drawn into an argument, or bandy words with you, as you obviously know more about the subject than I do.

I'm not looking for an argument, this is a discussion forum where people can discuss and debate to their hearts content. I asked you a genuine question and rather than answer it you signed off with the rather weak 'guess you'd have to be there'.

If you're going to continue to revert to 'war stories' rather than address the simple point I was trying to make well then there's little point in continuing.

The DF is largely a humanitarian peacekeeping force. That is, in my opinion, nothing to be annoyed or frustrated about.

I fail to see why such an assertation would aggreive you. Collateral damage is almost inevitable in a situation where you are separating two aggrevated parties, whoever they may be.

galwaycyclist

Negative_G wrote: »

I'm not looking for an argument, this is a discussion forum where people can discuss and debate to their hearts content. I asked you a genuine question and rather than answer it you signed off with the rather weak 'guess you'd have to be there'.

If you're going to continue to revert to 'war stories' rather than address the simple point I was trying to make well then there's little point in continuing.

The DF is largely a humanitarian peacekeeping force. That is, in my opinion, nothing to be annoyed or frustrated about.

I fail to see why such an assertation would aggreive you. Collateral damage is almost inevitable in a situation where you are separating two aggrevated parties, whoever they may be.

With regret I think you are raising your issues in the wrong thread. It seems to me that you are trying to frame things in a political or more properly geo-political context. This thread is not about politics or how to properly characterise military operations under particular labels.

At issue is the personal experiences of people in situations of high risk and stress for extended periods. Firemen get to go home, Guards get to go home.
It seems to me that if someone is sitting in a trench getting mortared, then the geo-political terminology for the type of operation their unit is engaged in might be lost on them. Likewise, it seems to me, that if someone is staring up the barrel of a Merkava, with live ammo on board, each time they look out from their beat then the labels used to characterise their presence at that post might be lost on them.

You may have valid points in another thread on another topic. In this thread complaints about "war stories" are in my view crass and inappropriate. The whole point of the thread is about people pretending to have stories that they don't.

AllthingsCP

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I have to disagree with the OP Irish troops serving in the Lebanon, Congo or the Mediterranean hold themselves in distinction as did many former 1916 rising citizens showing great valor in their day.

I did not say otherwise, The OP is about stolen valor people that pretend to have served or add on to their services with crazy stories

Terrontress

Negative_G wrote: »

I'm not looking for an argument, this is a discussion forum where people can discuss and debate to their hearts content. I asked you a genuine question and rather than answer it you signed off with the rather weak 'guess you'd have to be there'.

If you're going to continue to revert to 'war stories' rather than address the simple point I was trying to make well then there's little point in continuing.

The DF is largely a humanitarian peacekeeping force. That is, in my opinion, nothing to be annoyed or frustrated about.

I fail to see why such an assertation would aggreive you. Collateral damage is almost inevitable in a situation where you are separating two aggrevated parties, whoever they may be.

A humanitarian, peacekeeping force using military methods against those who may not want peace and also use military methods.

If you're being pinned down by gun fire, or having artillery coming at you, or any person with any tool is trying to kill you, does it matter why you are there?

It's up to the politicians to decide whether you're over there for peacekeeping, occupation or even feathering the nest of Halliburton. It's up to the soldier to get out there.

tac foley

OT - Dandyelevan - I got the book this morning, many thanks! What a great read it is, Sir. 'The kit inspection' is an absolute hoot - I know, I've been there.

Thanks again for the bitter and sweet memories within its pages.

G*d bless an Irish soldier.

tac

dandyelevan

Jeez Tac...but that waz quick!

It was a Bank Holiday here so I didn't think it would leave the Post Office till today!
Glad you liked it.
As you said, bittersweet.

discus

Here dandyeleven PM me the title of the book and I'll have santa put it on my christmas list!

It wasn't me!

Likewise. Is it available on Amazon?

dandyelevan

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Likewise. Is it available on Amazon?

New copies are not, but 2nd hand copies will eventually be available there I reckon.

It wasn't me!

If you can PM me the title and somewhere it would be available I'd definitely pick up a copy.

AllthingsCP

Likewise pm me the name please

AbusesToilets

Same, would be interested in getting a copy