19 year old whipped to death by his parents and church members

Lucifer MorningStar

For 14 hours with an electrical cord all because he wanted to leave the church.

Full story here

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/16/us/new-york-church-assault-case/

Absolutely shocking!

hatrickpatrick

Statements from the parents' lawyers:

Don Gerace, attorney for Bruce Leonard, has entered a not-guilty plea on behalf of his client, whom he said has no criminal history and has lived in the community more than two decades. Leonard has been a church member for eight years.

"In the state of New York he is charged with manslaughter in the first degree, which requires intent to cause serious bodily injury and I do not believe there was any intent," Gerace said this week.

Deborah Leonard's attorney, Devin Garramone, said his client had a stent put in due to a heart condition and requires constant medical attention.

"I cannot imagine my client had anything to do with these injuries, especially in the condition she is in," he said.

"I do not believe there was any intent"? The actual f*ck, like?

"I cannot imagine my client had anything to do with these injuries", even after she demonstrated to police how she battered him with a computer lead? The actual f*ck, like?

I understand that lawyers have an obligation to represent their clients and that people are entitled to legal representation, but I was unaware that this extended to an obligation to relay very, very obvious bullsh!t cover stories to the media.

hatrickpatrick

Statements from the parents' lawyers:

Don Gerace, attorney for Bruce Leonard, has entered a not-guilty plea on behalf of his client, whom he said has no criminal history and has lived in the community more than two decades. Leonard has been a church member for eight years.

"In the state of New York he is charged with manslaughter in the first degree, which requires intent to cause serious bodily injury and I do not believe there was any intent," Gerace said this week.

Deborah Leonard's attorney, Devin Garramone, said his client had a stent put in due to a heart condition and requires constant medical attention.

"I cannot imagine my client had anything to do with these injuries, especially in the condition she is in," he said.

"I do not believe there was any intent"? The actual f*ck, like?

"I cannot imagine my client had anything to do with these injuries", even after she demonstrated to police how she battered him with a computer lead? The actual f*ck, like?

I understand that lawyers have an obligation to represent their clients and that people are entitled to legal representation, but I was unaware that this extended to an obligation to relay very, very obvious bullsh!t cover stories to the media.

biko

Relijun, messing **** up since year zero.

Omackeral

Lucifer MorningStar wrote: »

For 14 hours with an electrical cord all because he wanted to leave the church.

Full story here

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/16/us/new-york-church-assault-case/

Absolutely shocking!

Jaysis.

wil

Lucifer MorningStar wrote: »

For 14 hours with an electrical cord all because he wanted to leave the church.

Full story here

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/16/us/new-york-church-assault-case/

Absolutely shocking!

Tis terrible.

Avatar MIA

Lawyer statement, 'What we are clearly seeing here is evidence of stigmata. It's unfortunate that my client is being persecuted because they were in the presence of a miracle being enacted.'

Canadel

Lucifer MorningStar wrote: »

Absolutely shocking!

I'm not in the slightest bit shocked.

Martial9

It's staggering how somebodies conscience can be so warped that they can justify whipping their own kin to death with a cord for apostasy.

Also, second degree manslaughter? They lamped him out of it for fourteen hours. What did they expect to happen? That he would just saunter on out after? Charges should be bumped up.

FishOnABike

I thought lawyers / solicitors first duty was to the law / court and secondly to represent their client. It baffles me how they can reconcile peddling such blatant nonsense on behalf of their clients with their supposed ethics.

Links234

That is horrific

Hopefully justice will be served.

biko

Juice will be served, in prison..

biko

biko wrote: »

Relijun, messing **** up since year zero.

Belief systems have been around a lot longer than year zero and will be around as long as humans exist. Religion is just a current codification of some of those systems. Militant Atheism is also a belief system and there are proportionately as many messed up atheists as religious.

CarrickMcJoe

Lucifer MorningStar wrote: »

For 14 hours with an electrical cord all because he wanted to leave the church.

Full story here

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/16/us/new-york-church-assault-case/

Absolutely shocking!

The Devil never sleeps!

suicide_circus

How is this not murder. Cruel evil ****ers should never see the light of day and their church outlawed

Links234

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Militant Atheism is also a belief system and there are proportionately as many messed up atheists as religious.

A lack of a belief system is a belief system now?

And I don't see atheists committing honour killings because of anyone abandoning their non-belief. Oh but Dawkins can be a pompous asshole, guess that's just as bad then?

wil

Links234 wrote: »

A lack of a belief system is a belief system now?

And I don't see atheists committing honour killings because of anyone abandoning their non-belief. Oh but Dawkins can be a pompous asshole, guess that's just as bad then?

Some communists countries and dictatorships may have already proven you wrong.

meeeeh

wil wrote: »

Some communists countries and dictatorships may have already proven you wrong.

About 20 million times wrong only in Siberia.

That being said this freedom of religion nonsense that allows all sorts of abuse should be scrapped. It seems as soon as you add religion to any abusive actions it suddenly becomes ok. Or is tolerated until something dreadful like this happens.

The_Valeyard

Links234 wrote: »

A lack of a belief system is a belief system now?

And I don't see atheists committing honour killings because of anyone abandoning their non-belief.

Soviet Union .
Communist China.
Albania.

eviltwin

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Soviet Union .
Communist China.
Albania.

Enforced atheism is not atheism. That's one extremist in a position of power forcing their will on the people and that is equally as common in religious societies. Most average atheists don't try and enforce their lack of faith on anyone, they debate sure but you don't see many trying to ban religion or close churches or anything like that.

Sand

Brutality by religious people like these put the odd awkward or irritating tweet by Richard Dawkins into perspective I hope.

The Randy Riverbeast

It's a barbaric religion and has no place in western society. Oh wait, this isn't Muslims, sorry. Better switch to the Christians did something response.

They are entitled to their opinion and to say otherwise makes you a militant atheist.

meeeeh

eviltwin wrote: »

Enforced atheism is not atheism. That's one extremist in a position of power forcing their will on the people and that is equally as common in religious societies. Most average atheists don't try and enforce their lack of faith on anyone, they debate sure but you don't see many trying to ban religion or close churches or anything like that.

The only difference between state terror or commune terror is that nutjobs have more people under them. The principle is the same, punishment of those who don't conform to idea whatever that one might be. There are also always enough cheerleaders to enable that. And the end result is no different if religion is replaced by ideology.

Btw as a general point Dawkins is vocal but he is nowhere near militant and frankly describing him as militant atheist is laughable and shows lack of general and historical knowledge. Just because something pops often on fb feed that doesn't make it militant.

DeadHand

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

It's a barbaric religion and has no place in western society. Oh wait, this isn't Muslims, sorry. Better switch to the Christians did something response.

They are entitled to their opinion and to say otherwise makes you a militant atheist.

Not sure while you felt the need to bring Islam into it.

But, since you insisted, I will point out that murder for the "crime" of apostasy is infinitely more common among Muslims than modern Christians and has far stronger doctrinal justification in Islam than it has in Christianity. It is so rare among modern Christians, in fact, that a story like this becomes newsworthy enough to appear here.

Agreed! Islam is, in all but its most moderate and lenient interpretations, a barbaric religion with no place in Western society or anything calling itself a "society". What ISIS practice in the Middle East, for instance, is Islam in its purest form.

Make no mistake, Christianity is barbaric too. The difference being it has been neutered, largely rejected within and evolved to adapt to Western society. Islam has suffered no such rejection, loss of power and undergone no such evolution. It only grows more powerful and extreme.

This is why it is so much more dangerous today.

FishOnABike

Martial9 wrote: »

second degree manslaughter? They lamped him out of it for fourteen hours. What did they expect to happen? That he would just saunter on out after? Charges should be bumped up.

I'd guess this is a holding charge and that when it comes to trial it will be for a more serious charge. With how the justice system seems to work there they'll possibly plea bargain to a charge less than they might be found guilty of by a jury trial in return for pleading guilty.

LDN_Irish

DeadHand wrote: »

But, since you insisted, I will point out that murder for the "crime" of apostasy is infinitely more common among Muslims than modern Christians and has far stronger doctrinal justification in Islam than it has in Christianity. It is so rare among modern Christians, in fact, that a story like this becomes newsworthy enough to appear here.

Agreed! Islam is, in all but its most moderate and lenient interpretations, a barbaric religion with no place in Western society or anything calling itself a "society". What ISIS practice in the Middle East, for instance, is Islam in its purest form.

Make no mistake, Christianity is barbaric too. The difference being it has been neutered, largely rejected within and evolved to adapt to Western society. Islam has suffered no such rejection, loss of power and undergone no such evolution. It only grows more powerful and extreme.

Having read the Quran I actually agree with quite a bit of this post (particularly that IS or Saudi to add another are practising "pure islam".) You've done something really odd though, and excuse my cynicism but you seem with it enough to know exactly what you're doing, you're comparing Christianity in the developed world (or here) with Islam in the developing world. Christianity has had its teeth pulled here, and that's a great thing. We can look forward to the day that that happens with Islam. But we're also still looking forward to the day that that happens with Christianity in the developing world too, because Christianity in Africa and the middle east is nothing like as disempowered as it is here.

Edit: I was born in East London and I've lived there for roughly half my life on and off, so I actually know a good few muslims and I don't know a single one who'd sympathise with IS or the Saudi regime. Not one.

Sonics2k

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Soviet Union .
Communist China.
Albania.

But they didn't kill people because of Atheism or in the name of Atheism. Instead they treated their own leaders as a kind of God or all knowing leader.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Sonics2k wrote: »

But they didn't kill people because of Atheism or in the name of Atheism. Instead they treated their own leaders as a kind of God or all knowing leader.

And slaughtered those who refused to adhere to their new doctrine. Sounds like a pretty similar mindset to me.

FishOnABike

wil wrote: »

Some communists countries and dictatorships may have already proven you wrong.

meeeeh wrote: »

About 20 million times wrong only in Siberia.

That being said this freedom of religion nonsense that allows all sorts of abuse should be scrapped. It seems as soon as you add religion to any abusive actions it suddenly becomes ok. Or is tolerated until something dreadful like this happens.

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Soviet Union .
Communist China.
Albania.

Sonics2k wrote: »

But they didn't kill people because of Atheism or in the name of Atheism. Instead they treated their own leaders as a kind of God or all knowing leader.

I would think it was more that the state saw any organisation (religious or non religious) as a potential threat to state security. It was not so much enforced atheism as brutally suppressing any organisations outside of the state approved party. Alternative political, social or intellectual views were equally surppressed. Organisation, not belief in something was the issue.

The_Valeyard

Sonics2k wrote: »

But they didn't kill people because of Atheism or in the name of Atheism. Instead they treated their own leaders as a kind of God or all knowing leader.

Albania did, article37 of the constitution.

Calibos

When the usual shower stop bringing up 'Militant Atheism' in any thread about religious medievelness, I'll stop bringing up Santa Claus.

RobertKK

Calibos wrote: »

When the usual shower stop bringing up 'Militant Atheism' in any thread about religious medievelness, I'll stop bringing up Santa Claus.

But Santa Claus is based on a real person, a Catholic bishop, whom many atheists still allow their children to believe...

Summer wind

I wonder is religion or religious beliefs the biggest cause of death in the world. Can you imagine all the people who have died in the name of religion all over the world. Totally crazy.

LDN_Irish

RobertKK wrote: »

But Santa Claus is based on a real person, a Catholic bishop, whom many atheists still allow their children to believe...

Ah man, I remember when I told kids in primary school that I didn't believe in Santa and they nearly killed me for apostasy. Thank for raising this important issue.

asherbassad

wil wrote: »

Some communists countries and dictatorships may have already proven you wrong.

Dunno, Russia is peppered with churches and cathedrals. They're everywhere. Even in Red Square.

RobertKK

Summer wind wrote: »

I wonder is religion or religious beliefs the biggest cause of death in the world. Can you imagine all the people who have died in the name of religion all over the world. Totally crazy.

Nope, the Khmer Rouge killed people who had a religion, mostly Buddhists and Christians. Well over two million people.
Regimes with an anti-religion stance have killed an estimated 100 million people or so.

Fact is: It doesn't matter what people believe or don't believe, all are human and humans have always killed fellow humans.

RobertKK

asherbassad wrote: »

Dunno, Russia is peppered with churches and cathedrals. They're everywhere. Even in Red Square.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/anti.html

The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest number of faithful. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labor camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited. By 1939 only about 500 of over 50,000 churches remained open.

bodhrandude

What is this talk about manslaughter, they should be tried for first degree murder the whole bloody lot of them, religious psychopaths, it reminds me of Carrie's mother from that first film Carrie! from 1977.

asherbassad

DeadHand wrote: »

Not sure while you felt the need to bring Islam into it.

But, since you insisted, I will point out that murder for the "crime" of apostasy is infinitely more common among Muslims than modern Christians and has far stronger doctrinal justification in Islam than it has in Christianity. It is so rare among modern Christians, in fact, that a story like this becomes newsworthy enough to appear here.

Agreed! Islam is, in all but its most moderate and lenient interpretations, a barbaric religion with no place in Western society or anything calling itself a "society". What ISIS practice in the Middle East, for instance, is Islam in its purest form.

Make no mistake, Christianity is barbaric too. The difference being it has been neutered, largely rejected within and evolved to adapt to Western society. Islam has suffered no such rejection, loss of power and undergone no such evolution. It only grows more powerful and extreme.

This is way it is so much more dangerous today.

There are 1.5 Billion muslims on the earth all practicing their religion peacefully. Perhaps 0.0001% of them adhere to the rabid extremism of which you speak.

Busllh1t to that being Islam's purest form. You don't know what you're talking about.

hatrickpatrick

Links234 wrote: »

A lack of a belief system is a belief system now?

Atheism isn't a lack of a belief system, that's agnosticism (I don't believe in anything). Atheism is the believe that "there is no God, and anybody who believes otherwise is wrong". And those militant anti-religion types do a fair amount of f*cked up stuff.

LDN_Irish

asherbassad wrote: »

Busllh1t to that being Islam's purest form. You don't know what you're talking about.

Have you read the Quran? IS and SA follow it to a T. All that "not real muslims" talk from moderate muslims is rubbish. Moderate muslims who live in Europe are "not really muslims." According to the Quran they shouldn't be living here and shouldn't be friends or eat with the khuffar. Fundamentalists have an infinitely stronger theological argument than moderates in Islam (and probably in all the Abrahamics but I know more about Islam) because the Quran is alleged to be the literal word of God transcribed through an illiterate man. Unfortunately.

asherbassad

RobertKK wrote: »

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/anti.html

I'm not saying there was no religious persecution in Russia, I think it was just that Stalin was a mad man.
Mark was the one who stated that religion was the opium of the masses but this has nothing really to do with oppression of those who have a faith but rather the exposure of those who seek to subjugate the masses. It's paradoxical I know. The rich seek to subjugate the masses and religion is just one weapon in their arsenal.

If you think about it, the teaching of Jesus Christ are essentially anarcho-socialist.

Tigger

RobertKK wrote: »

But Santa Claus is based on a real person, a Catholic bishop, whom many atheists still allow their children to believe...

santa clause is Odin http://infolocata.com/mirovia/irrefutable-proof-that-santa-is-odin/

Gbear

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Atheism isn't a lack of a belief system, that's agnosticism (I don't believe in anything). Atheism is the believe that "there is no God, and anybody who believes otherwise is wrong". And those militant anti-religion types do a fair amount of f*cked up stuff.

Agnosticism isn't a midpoint or a neutral position. It's not in opposition to atheism.

Agnosticism means you don't know the answer to the quesiton of whether or not god exists.

Atheism is not believing there is a god. That's it. 1 belief can't credibly be called a belief system.

Those two positions are not mutually exclusive.

If you believe anything you must automatically believe people who don't believe it are wrong. That's what believing it means.

Anti-religiousness isn't atheism and anyway, they really don't do a fair amount of ****ed stuff in comparison to religious people, because the vast majority of atheists these days haven't subsituted one totalitarian belief for another one, like Communism - rather they've stopped fearing the unknown and are secure enough in their educated prosperous society to not need superstition.

The_Valeyard

I thought these type of threads were getting shipped to the religious forums and out of AH

meeeeh

FishOnABike wrote: »

I would think it was more that the state saw any organisation (religious or non religious) as a potential threat to state security. It was not so much enforced atheism as brutally suppressing any organisations outside of the state approved party. Alternative political, social or intellectual views were equally surppressed. Organisation, not belief in something was the issue.

Both were the issue. But the point is that atheist regimes were very active and brutal in suppressing any alternative views on anything. What does it matter if it was economic thinking or religion or anything else. The principle is the same as in this killing, lets punish those who are doubting the cause.

meeeeh

Btw comparisons who topped more people are useless because there are more people to be killed now. Between plague and religious wars the population of Europe was halved around 1500's. People tend to be very good at killing for whatever reason.

NachoBusiness

That's the second most fcuked up news story I've read this year.

LDN_Irish

asherbassad wrote: »

.
If you think about it, the teaching of Jesus Christ are essentially anarcho-socialist.

This is a very good point and I've never really understood the relationship between Christianity and the Right in the US and our own bible belt uo north.

PopePalpatine

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Atheism isn't a lack of a belief system, that's agnosticism (I don't believe in anything). Atheism is the believe that "there is no God, and anybody who believes otherwise is wrong". And those militant anti-religion types do a fair amount of f*cked up stuff.

Agnosticism is the belief that it's impossible to prove the existence/nonexistence of a deity. Atheism is the lack of belief in any deities. They're not mutually exclusive, and I'd consider myself an agnostic atheist. Nontheists are the ones who believe that there are no gods.

Very Bored

People go on about Muslim extremists but this should show that the problem isn't with Islam, or in this case Christianity, the problem is with vicious and evil lunatics. People will attack religion in general when things like this happen but that simply isn't the problem. Violent and sadistic animals like this would attack someone for disagreeing with them on what their favourite colour was if they didn't have their beliefs to obsess their sick minds with.