Return for one house landlord

Barr

Hi All

This is my first time trying to make a revenue return as I am on PAYE.

I have looked into accountant and they seem expensive at €300+ VAT

Rent is small enough so looking for a low cost option.

Would ye recommend anywhere online that would offer a simple guide or provide a service that would help making a return to Revenue?


Thanks
Barr

Emme

Try ROS.

iceman777

Try the Irish Landlord Calculator to give you an indication of the tax you will pay: http://www.irishlandlord.com/index.aspx?page=calculators_taxestimation

As Emme has stated, Revenue on line is very easy to use and easy to submit your details.

I think an accountant is overkill for this and it will take you 20 minutes max. online.

Just to make sure you know what all you outgoings are for the year e.g. alarm service, furniture, plumbers, estate agent fees etc.

solargain

I would pay the accountant, by the time everything is done, depreciation on furniture & fittings, accountants fees, repairs and maintentance etc , if the rent is as low as you say he might be able to get you something back off your paye salary

antoinolachtnai

Even I f money is really tight, I would get the accountant to do it the first year. You will then have a template if you want to do it yourself subsequently.

Gumbo

solargain wrote: »

I would pay the accountant, by the time everything is done, depreciation on furniture & fittings, accountants fees, repairs and maintentance etc , if the rent is as low as you say he might be able to get you something back off your paye salary

Plus the €300+VAT is a deductible expense!

Pawwed Rig

kceire wrote: »

Plus the €300+VAT is a deductible expense!

Exactly so if you pay tax at the marginal rate it is really only costing half of this amount.
Might be hard to find someone at this time of year though as most tax guys are up to their necks in it trying to get all of their existing work done by Nov 12th.
Late nights and weekends are the norm until filing date

MarkAnthony

+1 on an accountant. We engaged one prior to getting into renting out our place. Preped us really well and offered some very sound advice on certain aspects. We'll definitely be going back as ours is doing our tax return, plus going through our PAYE earnings for 240+VAT. PAYE bit will probably take all of 5 minutes but I've found I've frequently got something back from the revenue and haven't be arsed the past couple of years so this'll give me some motivation

sunnysoutheast

solargain wrote: »

I would pay the accountant, by the time everything is done, depreciation on furniture & fittings, accountants fees, repairs and maintentance etc , if the rent is as low as you say he might be able to get you something back off your paye salary

Rental losses can not be offset against non-rental income, but can be carried forward to subsequent years.

In terms of getting an accountant at this busy time of year the OP would have more chance if they were organised and had a tabulated list of expenses, fixtures and fittings etc. ready to go rather than expecting to hand over a carrier bag full of receipts (which my acct assures me does happen!).

Jen44

accountants can often save you money as they are more aware of things you can offset against the tax bill then you are. I am a bit biased as my hubby is an accountant but he has saved us a lot of money on our rental

riclad

Get a self assessment tax form,
fill it in,
you can claim for repairs ,property tax,
tax,prtb fee,insurance,service charges .
75 per cent of the interest on the home mortgage,for each tax year.jan 1st to dec 31 st.
service charge,items purchased,eg towels, curtains,sheets ,pillows .
Large items, eg cooker ,fridge claim over 8 years.
eg 800 euro fridge, claim 100 euro per tax year.
Claim for small items ,eg towels in the year of purchase.
You can claim for fee to agent or accountant .
i fill in form every year ,it takes 20minutes .
i put large x over sections that do not apply to me.
eg pension, stocks, bonds, wife . shares,
http://www.irishlandlord.com/

YOU must register the tenant with the prtb before you submit the tax return ,
they,ll send you an email and a receipt for payment .
registration fee is 240 approx for each tenant.
http://prtb.ie/
They will not process your tax return unless you are registered with the prtb.
You have to put in your total income from the job,
plus total rental income ,
before expense,s .
my friend pays no tax as her loan is 14 k approx,
rental income is 8400 euro approx on 1 apartment .
She still has to fill in a tax return .
i fill it in each year for her.
The tax form is pretty simple to fill in ,if you have a basic leaving cert pass level of education .
keep all receipts for towels ,sheets, cutlery etc
anything you buy for use in the rental house.

Barr

riclad wrote: »

Get a self assessment tax form,
fill it in,
you can claim for repairs ,property tax,
tax,prtb fee,insurance,service charges .
75 per cent of the interest on the home mortgage,for each tax year.jan 1st to dec 31 st.
service charge,items purchased,eg towels, curtains,sheets ,pillows .
Large items, eg cooker ,fridge claim over 8 years.
eg 800 euro fridge, claim 100 euro per tax year.
Claim for small items ,eg towels in the year of purchase.
You can claim for fee to agent or accountant .
i fill in form every year ,it takes 20minutes .
i put large x over sections that do not apply to me.
eg pension, stocks, bonds, wife . shares,
http://www.irishlandlord.com/

YOU must register the tenant with the prtb before you submit the tax return ,
they,ll send you an email and a receipt for payment .
registration fee is 240 approx for each tenant.
http://prtb.ie/
They will not process your tax return unless you are registered with the prtb.
You have to put in your total income from the job,
plus total rental income ,
before expense,s .
my friend pays no tax as her loan is 14 k approx,
rental income is 8400 euro approx on 1 apartment .
She still has to fill in a tax return .
i fill it in each year for her.
The tax form is pretty simple to fill in ,if you have a basic leaving cert pass level of education .
keep all receipts for towels ,sheets, cutlery etc
anything you buy for use in the rental house.

Thanks Riclad, maybe its not as complicated as I first thought. I'll give it a go myself and see how I get on.

Pawwed Rig

riclad wrote: »

you can claim for repairs ,property tax,
tax,prtb fee,insurance,service charges .

You cannot claim for property tax
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/faqs/general.html#section9

riclad wrote: »

i put large x over sections that do not apply to me.

No need to do this but you should be submitting through ROS now so it is a moot point

riclad wrote: »

YOU must register the tenant with the prtb before you submit the tax return

Registering with the PRTB and filling out a tax return are 2 completely unrelated events. You cannot however claim mortgage interest relief if you haven't registered.

riclad wrote: »

registration fee is 240 approx for each tenant.

If the tenancy commencement date is on or after the 1st January 2011, the fee payable is €90 per tenancy registration application. However, in all circumstances where the tenancy is being registered more than one month after the commencement of the tenancy this fee is doubled. A fee of €180 per tenancy will therefore be payable as this is a late registration.

riclad wrote: »

They will not process your tax return unless you are registered with the prtb.

Not true. They are unrelated events

riclad wrote: »

my friend pays no tax as her loan is 14 k approx,
rental income is 8400 euro approx on 1 apartment .
She still has to fill in a tax return .

Very unlikely unless she is on the rent a room scheme as a 14K loan would only give a tiny bit of mortgage interest relief

OP - the post above is why others are recommending consult a tax advisor. riclad - I would recommend you and your friend do the same.

Moonbeam

I would also go with an accountant.
I have a pretty big tax bill annually from my rented house despite the rent on it being quite low.
There is also a lot of bad and incorrect advice on this thread.

Barr

Ok an accountant is back on the cards. Being the first time I just don't want the risk of an audit etc.

Does €300+ vat sound reasonable ?

Gumbo

Barr wrote: »

Ok an accountant is back on the cards. Being the first time I just don't want the risk of an audit etc.

Does €300+ vat sound reasonable ?

Where are you based?

Spanish Eyes

Barr wrote: »

Ok an accountant is back on the cards. Being the first time I just don't want the risk of an audit etc.

Does €300+ vat sound reasonable ?

Having an accountant does not guarantee that you will not be selected for an audit though!

Barr

kceire wrote: »

Where are you based?

Cork City

April 73

€300 plus vat is high I think. I have an accountant do mine for €150. Well worth it.
The problem you will have is getting someone to do it at this time of year & I think you'll end up paying more because of time pressure.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Barr wrote: »

Ok an accountant is back on the cards. Being the first time I just don't want the risk of an audit etc.

Does €300+ vat sound reasonable ?

Yes.

sunnysoutheast

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Rental losses can not be offset against non-rental income, but can be carried forward to subsequent years.
L

You sure about that. I know that farming losses for instance can be offset against the tax from your PAYE job and would see it as similar with a renting loss.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Armando Ancient Bongo wrote: »

You sure about that. I know that farming losses for instance can be offset against the tax from your PAYE job and would see it as similar with a renting loss.

Sunnysoutheast is correct. Rental losses are ringfenced.

riclad

The law is YOU MUST REGISTER with the ptrb as a landlord or else be fined 100,s of euros,
Also you cannot claim tax credits for loans ,mortgage etc in a tax return ,
IF you are not registered with the prtb AS a landlord for that house .
the tax office can check this out if they want.
SO if you do not want to get a tax bill for 1000,s of euros ,
and a large fine i would suggest you register before you send in a tax return.
so there is some connection between the prtb and your tax return.

i would not go buy out and buy a new 30k bmw car if i cannot afford to pay for tax and insurance.

i do my friends tax return every year for her, 75 per loan interest ,plus insurance,property tax,expenses etc
is larger than her rental income.
i think she charges around 600euro per month approx .
she gets a letter your tax liabilty for year x is zero euros in regard to the rental unit.

Your tax bill depends mainly are your expenses and loan interest higher
than your rental income for the house,

the revenue ignore the capital repayments on your home loan.

if you dont claim for mortgage interest on your loan you,ll
pay a large amount of tax.
ASK your bank for a mortgage interest statement for last year,
if you dont have one already
it say loan interest paid for 2014 = x amount .http://prtb.ie/

http://prtb.ie/landlords/helpful-info-documents

i put all expenses down on the self assessment tax return,
i go to a tax office get a self assessment tax return,
and post it off to the tax office.
i find it easier to fill in the tax form about 7 pages then use the online
tax forms.
AS the landlord can read the form and check it over a few times ,
before we post it .
About half the sections we leave blank,
as she does not have bond,s ,shares, a pension ,
or children.
seh works in an office and she is a paye tax payer
as well as a landlord with 1 rental unit .
Since this is your first time sending in a tax return i think its easier to use the paper tax self assessment form,
not online version.

if you are at least a leaving cert pass student ,you can fill in a tax form.
you,ll need info re what is your total income from paye job in 2014.
income before tax.

if you send in a tax return, fill it in properly ,register with the prtb first ,
the chances of being audited is close to zero.
check what is the closing date for paper form tax return,
its not the same as the ros online closing date.
I have done at least 6 tax returns and never had any bad feedback or querys from the tax office re the tax forms sent in.

Pawwed Rig

riclad wrote: »

The law is YOU MUST REGISTER with the ptrb as a landlord or else be fined 100,s of euros

Again incorrect. There is a doubling of the €90 charge to €180 if you register late.

riclad wrote: »

Also you cannot claim tax credits for loans ,mortgage etc in a tax return ,

You cannot claim mortgage interest relief if you do not reg with prtb, that is all. You cannot claim for loans or mortgages or etc. on your tax return even if you are registered (well you can for some loans but that is a different topic and still does not depend on prtb registration).

riclad wrote: »

SO if you do not want to get a tax bill for 1000,s of euros ,
and a large fine i would suggest you register before you send in a tax return.

The only reason to register before filing a return is to enable you to claim mortgage interest relief. Otherwise Revenue don't really care whether you're registered or not.

riclad wrote: »

i do my friends tax return every year for her, 75 per loan interest ,plus insurance,property tax,expenses etc
is larger than her rental income.

If you are claiming a deduction for property tax you are doing her return wrong so you really should tell her and allow her to make an unprompted qualifying disclosure for all of the years that you have done her return and allow her to rectify matters with Revenue.

riclad wrote: »

Your tax bill depends mainly are your expenses and loan interest higher
than your rental income for the house,

Not really true as it depends on the property. Where you are mortgage free for example with few capital allowances even a modest gross rent could attract tax at the highest rates.

riclad wrote: »

if you dont claim for mortgage interest on your loan you,ll pay a large amount of tax.

Not necessarily true. There are alot of other deductions that can offset a case V profit (section 23 relief for example)

riclad wrote: »

Since this is your first time sending in a tax return i think its easier to use the paper tax self assessment form,
not online version.

You raise a good point here. OP bear in mind that you need to register with ROS. This can take upto a couple of weeks as they send the password by post. I would get onto that straight away if I was you.

riclad wrote: »

if you send in a tax return, fill it in properly ,register with the prtb first , the chances of being audited is close to zero.

Not true. There are many reasons why someone may be selected for a tax audit including a random basis.

riclad wrote: »

check what is the closing date for paper form tax return, its not the same as the ros online closing date.

The closing date for paper returns is October 31st with a Nov 12 date via ROS. Paper returns are discouraged and are being phased out.

riclad wrote: »

IF I have done at least 6 tax returns and never had any bad feedback or querys from the tax office re the tax forms sent in.

It is a self assessment system. Not sure what feedback you are expecting. What you file you pay for. You can claim for whatever you like and Revenue will accept it. When you are selected for audit though is when they can look at every figure on the returns. You have already left your friend wide open for interest and penalties along with the repayment of underpaid tax so if I were you I would get straight onto a tax advisor for both of you to sort all of this out.

OP - posts like this are why you do not take tax or legal advice from strangers on the internet. I have laboured the point somewhat here but tax in particular is a very personal thing and the same advice may not be applicable to 2 different people.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Again incorrect. There is a doubling of the €90 charge to €180 if you register late.


You cannot claim mortgage interest relief if you do not reg with prtb, that is all. You cannot claim for loans or mortgages or etc. on your tax return even if you are registered (well you can for some loans but that is a different topic).


The only reason to register before filing a return is to enable you to claim mortgage interest relief. Otherwise Revenue don't really care whether you're registered or not.


If you are claiming a deduction for property tax you are doing her return wrong so you really should tell her and allow her to make an unprompted qualifying disclosure for all of the years that you have done her return and allow her to rectify matters with Revenue.


Not really true as it depends on the property. Where you are mortgage free for example with few capital allowances even a modest gross rent could attract tax at the highest rates.


Not necessarily true. There are alot of other deductions that can offset a case V profit (section 23 relief for example)


You raise a good point here. OP bear in mind that you need to register with ROS. This can take upto a couple of weeks as they send the password by post. I would get onto that straight away if I was you.


Not true. There are many reasons why someone may be selected for a tax audit including a random basis.


The closing date for paper returns is October 31st with a Nov 12 date via ROS. Paper returns are discouraged and are being phased out.


It is a self assessment system. Not sure what feedback you are expecting. What you file you pay for. You can claim for whatever you like and Revenue will accept it. When you are selected for audit though is when they can look at every figure on the returns. You have already left your friend wide open for interest and penalties along with the repayment of underpaid tax so if I were you I would get straight onto a tax advisor for both of you to sort all of this out.

OP - posts like this are why you do not take tax or legal advice from strangers on the internet. I have laboured the point somewhat here but tax in particular is a very personal thing and the same advice may not be applicable to 2 different people.

Excellent comments here.

The only thing I would add is that at various times Revenue do target specific industries for audit. It could be, say, pharmacists one year and hairdressers the next. With the amount of "accidental landlords" coming on the scene, I would venture a guess that a large scale review of landlords is due to happen soon and a lot of people are going to get the shock of thier lives.

OP get a professional to help you. Expect to pay at least a few hundred euro otherwise you're just paying for someone to input numbers on a screen.

detoxkid

I paid 200 to get an accountant to do it for me. I'd agree it is probably better spending a bit more for someone who can give u good advice. I found our guy just worked with what I gave him, where I was really looking for advice on things I might be missing etc.

sunnysoutheast

Armando Ancient Bongo wrote: »

You sure about that. I know that farming losses for instance can be offset against the tax from your PAYE job and would see it as similar with a renting loss.

Not the case unfortunately!

It is very clearly set out in Revenue's IT70.

Edited to say that I know nothing about farming! I know section 23 etc. allowed some allowances against other income classes, but I was never in a position to benefit.

sunnysoutheast

[QUOTE=Arbiter of Good Taste;97409565With the amount of "accidental landlords" coming on the scene, I would venture a guess that a large scale review of landlords is due to happen soon and a lot of people are going to get the shock of thier lives.
[/QUOTE]

I have heard of a few people getting "Can you confirm whether this property was your PPR...." letters recently, but I don't know whether this is a campaign as such.

Personally I would welcome Revenue focusing on the tax-free income from rented properties owned by the golden circle groups as much as they do on clamping down in other areas, but I won't be holding my breath this close to an election.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Howjoe1 wrote: »

100 + VAT is enough.

Unless, of course, you expect a trained professional who will spend more than 20 minutes doing your return.

sunnysoutheast

Howjoe1 wrote: »

100 + VAT is enough.

Without context that statement is meaningless.

Cheap professional advice can turn out to be very expensive.

MayBee

I'm following this thread with interest as I will be making my first tax return also this year, and unfortunately have left it very late, I was thinking of using an online tool to do the return, not sure if I can mention the website, has anyone any experience of this, thanks in advance,
Also my property was only rented for 6 months, so do I do everything pro rata ?

Sheep Shagger

Get an accountant - wish I had previously, about to start using one. Barely cover my costs each month but have a €2k bill due at the end of this month (reduced interest amount to use as offset, not being able to write off property tax and the introduction of USC on rental income being the biggest killers).

Can't help thinking thousands of accidental landlords think if they don't make a profit each month then they don't have a tax bill - couldn't be further from the truth (even after all the deductions).

Arbiter of Good Taste

Howjoe1 wrote: »

To clarify, I am AITI qualified. Qualified enough?

So am I, probably a lot longer than you are

Sheep Shagger

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

So am I, probably a lot longer than you are

Lads, can you hsve the pissing contest somewhere else please?

riclad

IF you have have any rental income ,one week,
1 month, you have to make a tax return,
fill in the self assesment tax return online ,or
on the paper form.
Then its up to the revenue to decide if you have made a profit .
is the rental income more than the tax allowance s,and expenses ,
on the rental property.
and the mortgage interest 75 per cent of loan interest.
Say you rent for six months ,
then claim for the expenses for that 6months .
ie half the annual tax interest ,
using the 75 per cent of interest formula .
IF you make no tax return you can be fined for that ,
even if the tax due is 100 euro.
i would expect to pay an accountant 200 euro plus vat at least , for any tax return .

Pawwed Rig

riclad wrote: »

Then its up to the revenue to decide if you have made a profit .

Incorrect. Under a self assessment system the onus is on you to declare your taxable income. Revenue assume that you have full knowledge of tax law or sought the advice of a competent professional and have filed the return correctly. As I said previously you can put whatever you like in a tax return but it is upto you to justify these entries in the event of an audit.

Cost wise is a difficult one. Where a large firm is doing it you won't pay less than €500 + VAT. Doing it myself I wouldn't do it for a stranger for less than €300 with no VAT. Bear in mind I would have to pay 50% of this to Revenue on my own income tax return.
Obviously for friends/family I would charge less or nothing.

Barr

MayBee wrote: »

I'm following this thread with interest as I will be making my first tax return also this year, and unfortunately have left it very late, I was thinking of using an online tool to do the return, not sure if I can mention the website, has anyone any experience of this, thanks in advance,
Also my property was only rented for 6 months, so do I do everything pro rata ?

What is the online tool ? There is no issue mentioning it. Anything that makes it easier would be a help

SteM

A friend is in the same position as you op and he was quoted €300+vat too.

Barr

Just talking to my OH there. She was the one talking to the accountant on Friday.

Its seems that the accountant sends out a list of documents required. We return these by email.

There seems to be no physical meeting.

I always thought there would be a consultation etc.

Is this the usual mechanics of how things work ?

MayBee

There are a couple of options to do it online with paylesstax.ie, I was thinking of using the cheapest one of this which is about 99 + vat, as I don't think I would mange to get an accountant at this stage, also I would really want to use someone recommended to me, but I don't know anyone who uses an accountant

MayBee

Barr wrote: »

Just talking to my OH there. She was the one talking to the accountant on Friday.

Its seems that the accountant sends out a list of documents required. We return these by email.

There seems to be no physical meeting.

I always thought there would be a consultation etc.

Is this the usual mechanics of how things work ?

Can I ask how much is this option costing ?

Barr

MayBee wrote: »

Can I ask how much is this option costing ?

This is for the quote of €300 + Vat.

prettyrestless

Barr wrote: »

Just talking to my OH there. She was the one talking to the accountant on Friday.

Its seems that the accountant sends out a list of documents required. We return these by email.

There seems to be no physical meeting.

I always thought there would be a consultation etc.

Is this the usual mechanics of how things work ?

Unless we are preparing full trading accounts we generally don't meet face to face with our clients when doing their tax return. A 10/15 minute phone call to discuss their various types of income, reliefs/deductions that may be applicable, etc etc is the starting point, followed by an email/letter with a list of all the items required. Then phoning them again when we have their liability calculated and explaining it.

Pawwed Rig

As a new client we would always meet them. Might not meet them the following year unless they wanted to though.
That said they are probably too busy to meet people at this time of year. I just spent all of this afternoon doing a clients tax return so every extra job during the week equals extra time I need to work on the weekends.

riclad

IF you think you are gonna make a profit,
you can a pay an accountant 300 euro to do your accounts,
i think the accountants ,fills in your expenses on the form .
one of which will be the 300 euro fee .
Your taxable income is rental income, minus 75 per cent of loan interest paid,
and various expenses incurred,on the rental home. insurance,
maintenance, prtb fee

https://www.taxback.com/blog/irish-landlord-expenses

It's tax-deductible if you've paid a professional to provide you with any legal or accounting services relating to your property - to have leases drawn up or to aid you with Stamp Duty, for example, or to prepare rental accounts .
he will need a document stating your paye income, before tax,
he will need to see your rental income ,
for the tax year,
An accountant will need ,
A document showing your loan interest paid on the home loan.
,documents ,receipts, or at least a summary of all your expense,s
that you are claiming for the rental unit.
You have to keep all documents ,receipts etc for 4-5 years
In case the revenue should wish to audit you .
if you are paying for boiler service etc get a receipt .
get a full receipt for any repairs or anything you buy ,
curtains etc in respect of the rental house.

Bold Abdu

I would generally always meet a new client. It's kind of a 2 way interview I suppose.

Although it's a busier time of the year I've never turned a client away or increased the fee because it's close to the deadline.

I've taken over numerous clients who previously completed their own Returns. I wouldnt say they were all riddled with errors, but they are never correct.

HerbieJ

Depending on the amount you just be able to file a form 12. I've done this the last few years and it's quite straight forward. Ive looked at the figures for next year and I will have to file a form 11 as I will exceed the amount allowed for the 12, think ill budget for an accountant to do this as the form looks a lot more daunting and really it only costs half the amount.
I also agree revenue seem to be sending letters lately I know of two people renting out their homes that got these letters and had not declared anything. I wonder if they have access to irish water database or something.

Pawwed Rig

HerbieJ wrote: »

Depending on the amount you just be able to file a form 12. I've done this the last few years and it's quite straight forward. Ive looked at the figures for next year and I will have to file a form 11 as I will exceed the amount allowed for the 12, think ill budget for an accountant to do this as the form looks a lot more daunting and really it only costs half the amount.

If you are happy that you have done the Form 12 correctly the Form 11 is no more difficult. It asks for the same info. If you use ROS offline just click on the rental income section.

HerbieJ

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If you are happy that you have done the Form 12 correctly the Form 11 is no more difficult. It asks for the same info. If you use ROS offline just click on the rental income section.

Thanks for that, I did have an accountant friend look over my returns when I first did them so they should be fine. I might give it a go but do it a lot earlier this time in case I run into issues. Now I just need to save as I'll have to pay tax on the double the first time I file, isn't that correct?

Pawwed Rig

Yeah you will need to pay preliminary tax for the next year too so doubling up is the
easiest way.

sunnysoutheast

HerbieJ wrote: »

I also agree revenue seem to be sending letters lately I know of two people renting out their homes that got these letters and had not declared anything. I wonder if they have access to irish water database or something.

I would say it's more likely to be an analysis of who is paying the LPT for a given property, given there are very high compliance rates with that charge. If the same person crops up against multiple properties then there are only a few possible explanations.