SOB vs Pape - The Thread ** one week suspension **

.ak

In the blue corner, fighting out of Lyon France, weighing in at 253 pounds, Pascal "the Rascal" Pape!

In the green corner, fighting out of Tullow Ireland, weighing in at 238 pounds, Sean "The Tullow Tank" O'Brien!!

As requested, discussion thread for the SOB flashpoint incident that occurred in the Ireland vs France rwc15 pool D game.

sydthebeat

sean o brien



pascal pape

total former

This is plain bullsh*t

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANBD4ovtY6M

Clearlier

Was trying to post this on the Ireland thread before .ak shut it down but I guess it's probably best placed here.

Sanjuro wrote: »

Been reading around some places that Pape was doing a 'camel bite' on O'Brien. And in other places, that he stuck his thumb up O'Brien's arse. Is there any evidence for these?

Wishful thinking. He might have fondled his arse but really he was just doing a bit of impeding like Irish players do, possibly looking for a reaction. SOB was stupid for reacting. I still think that it's a yellow card if the ref sees it but obviously the citing comissioner sees it differently so I'll be surprised if he doesn't come out with a ban. I'll be very disappointed if it's more than one week and I just hope that we're still in the world cup after this week.

BBDBB

Clearlier wrote: »

Was trying to post this on the Ireland thread before .ak shut it down but I guess it's probably best placed here.



Wishful thinking. He might have fondled his arse but really he was just doing a bit of impeding like Irish players do, possibly looking for a reaction. SOB was stupid for reacting. I still think that it's a yellow card if the ref sees it but obviously the citing comissioner sees it differently so I'll be surprised if he doesn't come out with a ban. I'll be very disappointed if it's more than one week and I just hope that we're still in the world cup after this week.

yes, there is a shot taken from behind SOB where Papes hand is seen to grip and then tear at flesh above SOBs hip as he moves around to the front of SOB where he gets a dig from SOB. It was on the itv coverage when Dallaglio was showing the incident at half time

justsomebloke

so SOB learned his fighting skills from He-Man action figures it seems

postitnote

Of course, if the citing commissioner bases their decision on the 6 second video above, then O'Brien is in trouble.

But as they say, content without context is useless.

So the facts are these:


1. Pape is seen gripping Sean O'Brien's side in what could potentially be an attempt to inflict severe pain.
2. O'Brien reacts by somewhat blindly swinging his lower palm / wrist into Pape's upper abdomen
3. Pape doesn't immediately either:

a. react
b. stagger
c. displace from impact in anyway

4. Pape then dives onto the ground whilse holding his lower abdomen.
5. Pape receives treatment, receiving an ice pack to his right middle rib as opposed to the area of impact
6. Pape rejoins the line with no apparent ill effects after no officials appear to have noticed the incident
7. Pape plays through the game with no ill effect, receiving full power tackles to the same area with far greater force and displacement but apparently no need for icing / acting.

Given Hooper's 1 match ban for giving a player a black eye, and Pocock receiving a warning for kneeing someone in the back, anything more than a 1 match ban would be a complete farce and an utter disgrace.

As Thornley said, by the time the World Cup in Japan comes around we will be playing tag.

Sanjuro

This is plain bullsh*t

Clearlier wrote: »

Was trying to post this on the Ireland thread before .ak shut it down but I guess it's probably best placed here.



Wishful thinking. He might have fondled his arse but really he was just doing a bit of impeding like Irish players do, possibly looking for a reaction. SOB was stupid for reacting. I still think that it's a yellow card if the ref sees it but obviously the citing comissioner sees it differently so I'll be surprised if he doesn't come out with a ban. I'll be very disappointed if it's more than one week and I just hope that we're still in the world cup after this week.

I'm not suggesting that Sean O'Brien's reaction was justified. But there must have been some provocation. He's not the type of player to just punch somebody for no reason. And we all know what kind of a dirty person Pape can be.

matrim

Deleted User wrote: »

So the facts are these:


3. Pape doesn't immediately either:

a. react
b. stagger
c. displace from impact in anyway

Maybe we have a different definition of what immediately means, but pape drops to the ground holding his ribs / abdomen straight after (or immediately) after O'Brien hits him

accidentprone1

Deleted User wrote: »

So the facts are these:


1. Pape is seen gripping Sean O'Brien's side in what could potentially be an attempt to inflict severe pain.
2. O'Brien reacts by somewhat blindly swinging his lower palm / wrist into Pape's upper abdomen
3. Pape doesn't immediately either:

a. react
b. stagger
c. displace from impact in anyway

4. Pape then dives onto the ground whilse holding his lower abdomen.
5. Pape receives treatment, receiving an ice pack to his right middle rib as opposed to the area of impact
6. Pape rejoins the line with no apparent ill effects after no officials appear to have noticed the incident
7. Pape plays through the game with no ill effect, receiving full power tackles to the same area with far greater force and displacement but apparently no need for icing / acting.

Given Hooper's 1 match ban for giving a player a black eye, and Pocock receiving a warning for kneeing someone in the back, anything more than a 1 match ban would be a complete farce and an utter disgrace.

As Thornley said, by the time the World Cup in Japan comes around we will be playing tag.

It seemed to me that he dropped to the ground instantly. There's also the possibility that he was winded by the strike—his reaction would seem to fit that perfectly.

e02bf0c5

It's interesting that that youtube video seems to drop a few frames at the 'possible' provocation.

Balls.ie have a gif where you can clearly see either a pinch or jersey pull by pape on O'Brien's right side. (can't post url myself as new user)

It's still a borderline incident that I'd be surprised if it wasn't punished to some extent since it is so high profile.

iroced

Deleted User wrote: »

So the facts are these:


1. Pape is seen gripping Sean O'Brien's side in what could potentially be an attempt to inflict severe pain.
2. O'Brien reacts by somewhat blindly swinging his lower palm / wrist into Pape's upper abdomen
3. Pape doesn't immediately either:

a. react
b. stagger
c. displace from impact in anyway

4. Pape then dives onto the ground whilse holding his lower abdomen.
5. Pape receives treatment, receiving an ice pack to his right middle rib as opposed to the area of impact
6. Pape rejoins the line with no apparent ill effects after no officials appear to have noticed the incident
7. Pape plays through the game with no ill effect, receiving full power tackles to the same area with far greater force and displacement but apparently no need for icing / acting.

Given Hooper's 1 match ban for giving a player a black eye, and Pocock receiving a warning for kneeing someone in the back, anything more than a 1 match ban would be a complete farce and an utter disgrace.

As Thornley said, by the time the World Cup in Japan comes around we will be playing tag.

So that's the Irish point of view on the incident? For my brain sanity I'd love to know if you all share this point of view.

accidentprone1

e02bf0c5 wrote: »

It's interesting that that youtube video seems to drop a few frames at the 'possible' provocation.

Balls.ie have a gif where you can clearly see either a pinch or jersey pull by pape on O'Brien's right side. (can't post url myself as new user)

It's still a borderline incident that I'd be surprised if it wasn't punished to some extent since it is so high profile.

Gif of the full incident, thanks for suggesting!

Neil3030

accidentprone1 wrote: »

It seemed to me that he dropped to the ground instantly. There's also the possibility that he was winded by the strike—his reaction would seem to fit that perfectly.

Sexual harassment by pape:



If a finger is involved they should argue it's an assault and to trial seanie is victim blaming.

matrim

e02bf0c5 wrote: »

It's interesting that that youtube video seems to drop a few frames at the 'possible' provocation.

Balls.ie have a gif where you can clearly see either a pinch or jersey pull by pape on O'Brien's right side. (can't post url myself as new user)

It's still a borderline incident that I'd be surprised if it wasn't punished to some extent since it is so high profile.

Here's the one you mentioned from balls.ie. It clearly shows Pape's arm around O'Brien and his hand tugging into his side

http://fat.gfycat.com/JoyfulSkinnyBullfrog.webm

Deleted

Sangre

Yes - every Irish person has this view. Very insightful of Venjur to express it so clearly.

irishbucsfan

That gif makes the notion that Pape was faking his reaction just sound ridiculous!

Annabella1

This has gone viral
Rugby authorities will have to 'do something'
Pape falls to the ground like a bag of spuds and requires immediate attention
The Mammies of this world are increasingly worried about the physicality of rugby
At least a game ban and possibly two
Puts the Argies in the driving seat for me unfortunately

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

So the facts are these:


1. Pape is seen gripping Sean O'Brien's side in what could potentially be an attempt to inflict severe pain.
2. O'Brien reacts by somewhat blindly swinging his lower palm / wrist into Pape's upper abdomen
3. Pape doesn't immediately either:

a. react
b. stagger
c. displace from impact in anyway

4. Pape then dives onto the ground whilse holding his lower abdomen.
5. Pape receives treatment, receiving an ice pack to his right middle rib as opposed to the area of impact
6. Pape rejoins the line with no apparent ill effects after no officials appear to have noticed the incident
7. Pape plays through the game with no ill effect, receiving full power tackles to the same area with far greater force and displacement but apparently no need for icing / acting.

Given Hooper's 1 match ban for giving a player a black eye, and Pocock receiving a warning for kneeing someone in the back, anything more than a 1 match ban would be a complete farce and an utter disgrace.

As Thornley said, by the time the World Cup in Japan comes around we will be playing tag.

?

he went straight to ground

he's getting a ban... this is all about the length

fitz

accidentprone1 wrote: »

Gif of the full incident, thanks for suggesting!

Pretty clear from that rear view that Pape grabbed a handful of O'Briens side and squeezed, you can see his hand clenched.

lawred2

accidentprone1 wrote: »

Gif of the full incident, thanks for suggesting!

he gently put his arm around his waist..

maybe SOB misinterpreted him

iroced

Sangre wrote: »

Yes - every Irish person has this view. Very insightful of Venjur to express it so clearly.

There's an open poll to voice out your opinion.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

So the facts are these:


1. Pape is seen gripping Sean O'Brien's side in what could potentially be an attempt to inflict severe pain.
2. O'Brien reacts by somewhat blindly swinging his lower palm / wrist into Pape's upper abdomen
3. Pape doesn't immediately either:

a. react
b. stagger
c. displace from impact in anyway

4. Pape then dives onto the ground whilse holding his lower abdomen.
5. Pape receives treatment, receiving an ice pack to his right middle rib as opposed to the area of impact
6. Pape rejoins the line with no apparent ill effects after no officials appear to have noticed the incident
7. Pape plays through the game with no ill effect, receiving full power tackles to the same area with far greater force and displacement but apparently no need for icing / acting.

Given Hooper's 1 match ban for giving a player a black eye, and Pocock receiving a warning for kneeing someone in the back, anything more than a 1 match ban would be a complete farce and an utter disgrace.

As Thornley said, by the time the World Cup in Japan comes around we will be playing tag.

I don't think they are against hard rugby, just cutting the cheap shot rubbish (including what Pape may have done to O'Brien) out of rugby.

I disagree with virtually all of your points.

1. Yep, looks like he did something.
2. He was right there beside him, he knew where he was swinging at.
3. He drops down very quickly, not from the impact, but from having the wind knocked out of him.
4. Dive is your view of it.
5. Once again, it's nothing to do with force of impact, but where he was hit. The physio is just generally putting ice where he said he was hit....don't know how this is anything to do with Pape.
6. Once you recover from being winded, you are fine, but it can take some time? Don't know the issue there. I don't think he's claiming a broken rib or anything?
7. Loads of players go down for an injury and then play through the rest of a match. Are they milking it too?

I don't think he will get much of a ban, but I'm just giving you a neutrals view on the incident.

stadedublinois

Deleted User wrote: »

So the facts are these:


1. Pape is seen gripping Sean O'Brien's side in what could potentially be an attempt to inflict severe pain.
2. O'Brien reacts by somewhat blindly swinging his lower palm / wrist into Pape's upper abdomen
3. Pape doesn't immediately either:

a. react
b. stagger
c. displace from impact in anyway

4. Pape then dives onto the ground whilse holding his lower abdomen.
5. Pape receives treatment, receiving an ice pack to his right middle rib as opposed to the area of impact
6. Pape rejoins the line with no apparent ill effects after no officials appear to have noticed the incident
7. Pape plays through the game with no ill effect, receiving full power tackles to the same area with far greater force and displacement but apparently no need for icing / acting.

Given Hooper's 1 match ban for giving a player a black eye, and Pocock receiving a warning for kneeing someone in the back, anything more than a 1 match ban would be a complete farce and an utter disgrace.

As Thornley said, by the time the World Cup in Japan comes around we will be playing tag.

From the three videos I've seen (the vine, the slightly longer one from behind the posts and the gif above)

1. Papé breifly touches O'Brien while running around to an onside position pulling O'Brien a step forward. Possibility of "camel bite".

2. O'Brien reacts by swinging with significant force (shoulder is turned prior to swing), making contact with inside of his clenched fist, wrist and forearm across Papé's abdomen.

3. Papé falls to ground, appears winded and recieves treatment for several minutes before returning to play.

Conclusion: O'Brien strike appears a deliberate attempt to strike player with significant force and not to attempt to free himself from being held, O'Brien was not being held or impeded from continuing play at the time of strike. Possibility of strike being reaction to "camel bite".

lawred2

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That gif makes the notion that Pape was faking his reaction just sound ridiculous!

does doesn't it

justsomebloke

iroced wrote: »

There's an open poll to voice out your opinion.

not anymore, there is no need for any further threads and your thread has been merged with this one

iroced

@ .ak : you should direct people to my post (=> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97360044&postcount=13) in the opening post of the thread cause it's not clear what the poll is about right now .

justsomebloke wrote: »

not anymore, there is no need for any further threads and your thread has been merged with this one

Poll was moved here wasn't it?


I'm a nobody on boards and this forum in particular, and can't neither won't force anybody to vote just for my little persona. But I have zero interest in this debate. Everything was said and written in the game thread yesterday and my last second degree post in it was a full stop on it for me. But seen as you guys made it to a specific thread, my only interest now is to know if Venjur's opinion is shared by the majority or not. That's all .

total former

This is plain bullsh*t

iroced wrote: »

So that's the Irish point of view on the incident? For my brain sanity I'd love to know if you all share this point of view.

I absolutely don't, for one.

People are letting their regard for O'Brien cloud their judgement on this one. Someone above described what Pape did as "tearing flesh" - WTF like?

No, he punched his opponent, he should and will be banned. If Pape was holding him, then that might count as mitigation to lessen the ban, but it cannot be exoneration.

davedanon

Annabella1 wrote: »

Puts the Argies in the driving seat for me unfortunately

That's just your opinion fortunately. We should be good enough to beat them without SO'B.

BBDBB

can we add a "mystery second camel was seen on the grassy gnoll" to the poll???

BBDBB

total former wrote: »

I absolutely don't, for one.

People are letting their regard for O'Brien cloud their judgement on this one. Someone above described what Pape did as "tearing flesh" - WTF like?

No, he punched his opponent, he should and will be banned. If Pape was holding him, then that might count as mitigation to lessen the ban, but it cannot be exoneration.

that was me, Pape put his hand above SOBs hip, gripped and tore his hand away rather than released him, ie intending to cause pain


please, if you have some alternative language you'd rather use to describe the above action Id love to hear it

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

I absolutely don't, for one.

People are letting their regard for O'Brien cloud their judgement on this one. Someone above described what Pape did as "tearing flesh" - WTF like?

No, he punched his opponent, he should and will be banned. If Pape was holding him, then that might count as mitigation to lessen the ban, but it cannot be exoneration.

I think I agree almost 100%

The only thing I'm questioning in my head is whether the punch is worthy of a ban. Is every punch a red card or should every punch be worth of the lower end of the scale? Evidently not as Hooper hasn't been banned. So if not, where does this punch lie on the scale and why? That's the only question I have. You can actually search through disciplinary hearings by offence on the RFU website, the first few I read of them for punching/striking last season don't result in bans: http://www.englandrugby.com/governance/discipline/judgments-document-search/

Clearlier

stadedublinois wrote: »

From the three videos I've seen (the vine, the slightly longer one from behind the posts and the gif above)

1. Papé breifly touches O'Brien while running around to an onside position pulling O'Brien a step forward. Possibility of "camel bite".

2. O'Brien reacts by swinging with significant force (shoulder is turned prior to swing), making contact with inside of his clenched fist, wrist and forearm across Papé's abdomen.

3. Papé falls to ground, appears winded and recieves treatment for several minutes before returning to play.

Conclusion: O'Brien strike appears a deliberate attempt to strike player with significant force and not to attempt to free himself from being held, O'Brien was not being held or impeded from continuing play at the time of strike. Possibility of strike being reaction to "camel bite".

I disagree with that, it's not easy to see but I do not think that his fist is clenched, I think that it's a hard slap from a swinging arm rather than the soft punch that a clenched fist would imply.

Given the timing involved (Pape only releases his arm as SOB swings [which does suggest that he was only touching rather than holding by that point]) I also think that it's reasonable to suggest that SOB was attempting to free himself.

I still think that it was against the rules, it was foul play and that he should have been yellow carded for it. It wasn't a sending off offence and I think that he should have received a warning for it akin to Pocock.

Edit - I wouldn't describe it as a clenched fist but I don't think that open handed slap describes it well either so I'm splitting hairs there. I'd just comment that it's not a full on punch.

Stranger Danger

Can't believe people are spouting the 'arse-fondle/finger up the bum' nonsense.

Pape tries to pull O'Brien off-side (the sly dog) and O'Brien reacts with a punch.

Stupid by O'Brien - he'll get a minimum of 2 weeks.

JC01

This is plain bullsh*t

I sincerely hope it's only a one match ban he gets because I don't for a second question whether or not he will be punished, it really is a question of how long it's for.

On a side note, lantering Jesus I think that dig would probably kill me, seeing it in slo-mo reminds you of the power behind these athletes.

kuang1

total former wrote: »

I absolutely don't, for one.

People are letting their regard for O'Brien cloud their judgement on this one. Someone above described what Pape did as "tearing flesh" - WTF like?

No, he punched his opponent, he should and will be banned. If Pape was holding him, then that might count as mitigation to lessen the ban, but it cannot be exoneration.

In fairness TF, I might not describe it as tearing flesh, but it's enough to give a shot of pain. Seriously do it to yourself. Grab a fistful of flesh around your kidney area and give a hard (but very brief) squeeze. It ain't fukkin pleasant and the sharpness, suddenness and unexpected nature of it would explain (BUT NOT JUSTIFY) SOB's reaction.
To be really forensic about it, Pape's 'grope' begins with a caress of Seanie's arse!
Anyone who believes there's a single player out there at international level that would randomly strike out like that; unprovoked, is talking shiiiite.

1 week ban.

(Assuming the citing committee acknowledge Pape's provocative hand.)

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think I agree almost 100%

The only thing I'm questioning in my head is whether the punch is worthy of a ban. Is every punch a red card or should every punch be worth of the lower end of the scale? Evidently not as Hooper hasn't been banned. So if not, where does this punch lie on the scale and why? That's the only question I have. You can actually search through disciplinary hearings by offence on the RFU website, the first few I read of them for punching/striking last season don't result in bans: http://www.englandrugby.com/governance/discipline/judgments-document-search/

Which Hooper incident are you talking about? The one in the rugby Championship where he was cited, it was decided it was done with an open hand, he was given 2 weeks, and it was halved to 1 because of his good record?

irishbucsfan

Basil3 wrote: »

Which Hooper incident are you talking about? The one in the rugby Championship where he was cited, it was decided it was done with an open hand, he was given 2 weeks, and it was halved to 1 because of his good record?

I meant Pocock. Australians all look alike to me.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I meant Pocock. Australians all look alike to me.

Yeah, I confuse those two as well

chupacabra

He'll get his ban and learn his lesson from it. Just a moment of bloody mindedness not unlike Flannerys incident against the French a few years ago.

thebaz

really do we need repeated slow mo repetitions of the infringement with nanny staters crying out for lengthy bans - he did wrong , one match ban and move on - its been a horrible couple of days for the Irish team given Paulies retirement today , we should be getting behind the team rather than wishing further bans , as for Saint Andre , he should be looking at his own part in the destruction on French rugby and its values

stadedublinois

Clearlier wrote: »

I disagree with that, it's not easy to see but I do not think that his fist is clenched, I think that it's a hard slap from a swinging arm rather than the soft punch that a clenched fist would imply.

Given the timing involved (Pape only releases his arm as SOB swings [which does suggest that he was only touching rather than holding by that point]) I also think that it's reasonable to suggest that SOB was attempting to free himself.

I still think that it was against the rules, it was foul play and that he should have been yellow carded for it. It wasn't a sending off offence and I think that he should have received a warning for it akin to Pocock.

Edit - I wouldn't describe it as a clenched fist but I don't think that open handed slap describes it well either so I'm splitting hairs there. I'd just comment that it's not a full on punch.

Maybe we can compromise on a partially clenched fist

I agree that punch doesn't describe it well (slap even less so), I think strike is better.

I don't think the argument that he was trying to get free stands up. It would be much more usual for him to strike at the arm in that case. In any case the strike would be hugely disproportionate for being held for two seconds.

A reaction to the "camel bite" seems a more likely explanation (and more understandable). Although the reports of Ireland going with being held defence could contradict this.

BlitzKrieg

Is it just me or is Pape trying to pull him offside or at least to the side of the rook which would make it illegal for O Brian to enter the rook?

not condoning the punch, but he's clearly interfering with the player and fishing for a penalty.


a 1 game ban for a poor reaction but the Pape should also get scolded for clearly attempting to interfere with the player.

Sangre

Wtf is a 'camel bite'.

The hit was as a clear a yellow as you'lllever see. The question in my mind is whether it would have gotten a red.

Caliden

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Is it just me or is Pape trying to pull him offside or at least to the side of the rook which would make it illegal for O Brian to enter the rook?

not condoning the punch, but he's clearly interfering with the player and fishing for a penalty.


a 1 game ban for a poor reaction but the Pape should also get scolded for clearly attempting to interfere with the player.

He's digging his fingers in and pulling at SoB's trap muscle, painful to say the least.

Both players need to be cited, Pape for doing what he did and SoB for his reaction.

lbj666

Said on the other thread I reckon he is not gonna get more that a week.
If there is a semi between against Aus and Poccock is on the field but SO'B isn't it will be very harsh. I know both incidents should be judged independently and not compared but it would be helpful in this was alluded to this in the hearing or subsequent appeal.

stadedublinois

Sangre wrote: »

Wtf is a 'camel bite'.

The hit was as a clear a yellow as you'lllever see. The question in my mind is whether it would have gotten a red.

I only saw the term yesterday, but used it because pinch seemed silly

total former

This is plain bullsh*t

Caliden wrote: »

He's digging his fingers in and pulling at SoB's trap muscle, painful to say the least.

Both players need to be cited, Pape for doing what he did and SoB for his reaction.

Ahhhhh, stop.

fitz

The more I look at it, the more I think Pape's actions are almost worse than the reaction they got.
It's a cynical, deliberate attempt to inflict pain and interfere with O'Brien.
Too late now, but suggestions of Pape being cited wouldn't have been out of line imo.
I still think that the Pocock incident has set the bar. He brings his arm down from above his head, striking the player around the hip and then uses the knee.
If that's not a ban, then O'Brien's shouldn't be either.