Can I do business with Iranians?

bmstuff

Hello,

Got an email today from a potential customer based in Iran, he wants to buy in car entertainment products from me.

I get customers from all over the world, so getting an email from Iran is not really surprising me.

Not sure what the situation is with making business with Iran with the embargo etc since the last few years.

Can I?

Cheers

mneylon

You might want to review this:
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/iran/

pedroeibar1

First question – Why would anyone in Iran want to source in-car entertainment systems from a supplier of in Ireland? Its near neighbours are renowned for electrical car accessories. Why not source there? Suspicious, no? (and sorry, I do not believe that an Iranian would be aware that your product/skillsets make you special.)

Even if the guy is genuine, you would find it a lot more trouble than it’s worth. Iran has the poorest business rating you could find, down there with Iraq, Libya, Nigeria, Syria, Ukraine, and Zimbabwe. Their financial system is creaky at best and even at ILOC levels not without problems. Forget it, concentrate on what you are good at

RUDOLF289

I also suggest to have a look at this document

http://www.bscn.nl/sanctions-consulting/sanctions-list-countries

My understanding is that a number of sanctions have been lifted. Therefore it should be possible to trade with Iran, certainly in the articles you mentioned, unless they have a "dual use" application, i.e. Civil and Military.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Cheers,
Rudolf289

pedroeibar1

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

First question – Why would anyone in Iran want to source in-car entertainment systems from a supplier of in Ireland? Its near neighbours are renowned for electrical car accessories. Why not source there? Suspicious, no? (and sorry, I do not believe that an Iranian would be aware that your product/skillsets make you special.)

Even if the guy is genuine, you would find it a lot more trouble than it’s worth. Iran has the poorest business rating you could find, down there with Iraq, Libya, Nigeria, Syria, Ukraine, and Zimbabwe. Their financial system is creaky at best and even at ILOC levels not without problems. Forget it, concentrate on what you are good at

Indeed. I have one experience doing business with Iranians selling an off plan apartment through an exhibition in Dubai. They said to me at the time, now you know we are not terrorists like George Bush says!
The 50% downpayment was paid, and then they refused to pay the balance on completion - at which point I cancelled their contract and kept the 50% as per the terms . So if you do consider this, its payment upfront and nothing else.

bmstuff

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

First question – Why would anyone in Iran want to source in-car entertainment systems from a supplier of in Ireland? Its near neighbours are renowned for electrical car accessories. Why not source there? Suspicious, no? (and sorry, I do not believe that an Iranian would be aware that your product/skillsets make you special.)

Even if the guy is genuine, you would find it a lot more trouble than it’s worth. Iran has the poorest business rating you could find, down there with Iraq, Libya, Nigeria, Syria, Ukraine, and Zimbabwe. Their financial system is creaky at best and even at ILOC levels not without problems. Forget it, concentrate on what you are good at

Hu? Because I sell bespoke in car entertainment products for specific cars, that nobody else in the world actually does, and because I am based in Ireland, I am not worthy?
I don't sell 50 euros Lidl radio alright.

Strange reasoning my friend, if I may.

I sell regularly to the US, Japan, Taiwan, Finland, Sweden, Ukraine etc. Why not an Iranian assuming there is no restriction.

I also have local customers too, British ones too driving from mainland UK and norther Ireland too, accidentally

Hachiko

I don't doubt your skills, but Iran is a kettle of fish you probably would not want to get involved with. I would stick with your existing client base.

Thailand is probably a place you might have more success, they love the gadgets but might not have the necessary skills or abundance of places to outfit prestige cars (and there are plenty of prestige cars in Bangkok).

antodeco

Are you MDS?

bmstuff

antodeco wrote: »

Are you MDS?

Na, different league from me, I am more on the higher end of stuff

pedroeibar1

bmstuff wrote: »

Hu? Because I sell bespoke in car entertainment products for specific cars, that nobody else in the world actually does, and because I am based in Ireland, I am not worthy?
I don't sell 50 euros Lidl radio alright.
Strange reasoning my friend, if I may.

Get off your high horse and read my post again. I never suggested that you were unworthy or selling cheapo product. It is your response that is strange, not my reasoning.

Nice photos, lotsa waffle but you have yet to state the bleeding obvious – how are you going to be paid?

bmstuff wrote: »

I sell regularly to the US, Japan, Taiwan, Finland, Sweden, Ukraine etc. Why not an Iranian assuming there is no restriction….I also have local customers too, British ones too driving from mainland UK and norther Ireland too, accidentally

That comment reinforces my view that you are totally out of your depth when it comes to managing export risk.
Do you know anything about Iranian banking? The impact of Sharia? Silent confirmations? Transfer risk? Bank Markazi? Bank Melli?

Any gobadaw can have sales, business is about getting paid. You've yet to show that you have some idea of that - i.e. business beyond a wiring loom.:rolleyes:

bmstuff

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Get off your high horse and read my post again. I never suggested that you were unworthy or selling cheapo product. It is your response that is strange, not my reasoning.

Nice photos, lotsa waffle but you have yet to state the bleeding obvious – how are you going to be paid?


That comment reinforces my view that you are totally out of your depth when it comes to managing export risk.
Do you know anything about Iranian banking? The impact of Sharia? Silent confirmations? Transfer risk? Bank Markazi? Bank Melli?

Any gobadaw can have sales, business is about getting paid. You've yet to show that you have some idea of that - i.e. business beyond a wiring loom.:rolleyes:

Yet again you are insulting my intelligence.

You clearly said : Its near neighbours are renowned for electrical car accessories. Why not source there? Suspicious, no? (and sorry, I do not believe that an Iranian would be aware that your product/skillsets make you special.)

I did not ask for help to be told neighbouring countries are more qualified that me and this is exactly what you did without even knowing what I build from scratch and sell. You should get down you high horse yourself, you are nobody to tell me that.

Then you go on insulting me towards my payment risk management, without even knowing how I get paid?

Well most of the time this is by bank wire, this is how I handle my risk management. I use a card payment processor too that handles Visa, Mastercard etc, not 100% risk free of course, but I also always check the transactions details.But I do not accept card payments from many locations.
Incidentally the only card fraud I was a victim off some time ago, was from a local Irish guy. Nobody from Ukraine, Japan, US etc ever used a stolen card to pay me.But I am very careful and cancelled card transactions in the past.

You went way out of line and your comments did not address any of my questions.

Please refrain from further posting in my thread, I really hope you don't do this professionally.

bmstuff

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Any gobadaw can have sales, business is about getting paid. You've yet to show that you have some idea of that - i.e. business beyond a wiring loom.:rolleyes:

An no if that was that easy everybody would be selling stuff on the internet. It takes months and years of hard work to keep an ecommerce going. Trust builds only over time, people check reviews online before buying, they check you use HTTPS, check your products.

Getting paid is the easy part once you have the trust. You are mixing everything up. You are a very confused individual.

PhoenixParker

Your two big problems will be getting paid and getting the product to them. Getting pad because the big international credit card and online payment companies don't work in Iran - visa, MasterCard etc. Getting the product to them because again the usual channels aren't operating there (as far as I know)

They may have their own workarounds they use already. Have they suggested how both of those will work? Can you do it in such a way that there's no chance of a chargeback?

bmstuff

bmstuff wrote: »

Getting paid is the easy part once you have the trust. You are mixing everything up. You are a very confused individual.

Yeah but its not in this case. This is the part your worried about hence why your posting. It is in fact the only reason your posting - will I get paid if I do business with Iran.

A simple way to cut through this nonsense to and fro would be to mail the client and say, yes I'll send you your product, but pay for it 100% upfront, and any if there are any political reasons the package does not arrive you are liable and not me.

If the business with Iran is worth a lot of money, then find yourself a local distributor and make a deal with them to bring in the product from you and give them a cut to handle all the crap over there, but again at least cover your costs before you send anything.

Forget things like trust when you are dealing with places like this, it doesn't exist!

pedroeibar1

bmstuff wrote:

Please refrain from further posting in my thread, I really hope you don't do this professionally.

Your thread? I will post what and where I like, while remaining within the Charter. I do not “do this professionally” anymore, but for decades I was involved in exports, many USDmillions of which went to Iran, which is why I responded to your OP.
You state

bmstuff wrote:

Getting paid is the easy part once you have the trust. You are mixing everything up. You are a very confused individual.
Well most of the time this is by bank wire, this is how I handle my risk management. I use a card payment processor too that handles Visa, Mastercard etc, not 100% risk free of course, but I also always check the transactions details.

You came here for advice, yet you post comments that would make the newest of exporters cringe. You’ve ignored most of what has been said to you, sensible stuff like the pointer above that credit cards do not work in Iran (FWIW some few have and use debit cards, as interest is not permitted by Sharia). Nor have you any idea of how their international payments system works, or the difference between commercial and political credit risk. You are seriously out of your depth, now off you go and learn the hard way.

RUDOLF289

bmstuff wrote: »

Hello,

Got an email today from a potential customer based in Iran, he wants to buy in car entertainment products from me.

I get customers from all over the world, so getting an email from Iran is not really surprising me.

Not sure what the situation is with making business with Iran with the embargo etc since the last few years.

Can I?

Cheers

Gentlemen,

It appears you are going ever so slightly "off thread". Carefully look at the question asked above. Nowhere do I see any question about getting paid. The question is, can OP legitimately trade with a potential client in Iran.

I do agree with the OP that some of the comments can be construed as condescending. Possibly not intended, however, let's keep on point and support a local manufacturer, with a unique product in his efforts to develop additional sales.

Cheers,
Rudolf289

RUDOLF289

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

Gentlemen,

It appears you are going ever so slightly "off thread". Carefully look at the question asked above. Nowhere do I see any question about getting paid. The question is, can OP legitimately trade with a potential client in Iran.

I do agree with the OP that some of the comments can be construed as condescending. Possibly not intended, however, let's keep on point and support a local manufacturer, with a unique product in his efforts to develop additional sales.

Cheers,
Rudolf289

Well with respect Rudolf, trading with Iran is legal, and getting paid is the only real issue here isn't it?

RUDOLF289

Hello El Rifle,

not 100% sure that all trade with Iran is legal, but some of the embargoes have been lifted. And as I said, the question was is trade with Iran legal. Looks to me the OP is savvy enough to figure out acceptable payment terms.

cheers,
Rudolf289

pedroeibar1

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

Hello El Rifle,

not 100% sure that all trade with Iran is legal, but some of the embargoes have been lifted. And as I said, the question was is trade with Iran legal. Looks to me the OP is savvy enough to figure out acceptable payment terms.

cheers,
Rudolf289

Splendid post Rudolf, really adds value. However, from what has been posted by the OP I doubt that the he is savvy enough on Iran to structure anything there (other than a bad debt), which is why I pushed him. It is a rather different "ghilayat min al'asmak" to China. Almost all trade with Iran is legal today, as is apparent to anyone who can use Google. However, payment always was, is and will be a problem. And it will get worse.

You ever see a Ferrari/Beemer/Merc drive down Bobby Sands Street in Teheran with a boom box on the go? (Actually, you ever been to Iran, Rudolf?) Can you imagine the harm one or two of the Sharia Police could inflict on a car playing the music of the Great Satan? (Not to mention a driver foolhardy enough to irritate them!)

It is a concern when any potential exporter places Iran in the same category as Grade A markets, as the OP did, and goes on to talk about payment by credit card or "wire". But then, lil old me probably knows nothing, ‘cos since the middle of the Iran-Iraq war (1980's) I was involved with supplying both sides and have in my career done large amounts of work in the ME among other areas.
“Guns, Butter & Videos”, (and the odd Toyota Corolla for the pilot’s families) and the rival stances on payment by the different authorities. If you know anything about trade with what was Iraq and today’s Iran you will get my drift.
OP, get cash with order, no other way for the piddling amounts in question.
Cheers,
Pedro.

delahuntv

why does certain poster always insult people when the ask legitimate questions?

Do you notice how many people who used to give great advice ahve left this thread - even I can't be arsed making constructive comments because one particular ahole will find some fault on it because he is so effin brilliant and must at this stage be a multiple holder of business person of the year award.


To the OP - these days if you post here, even a gu=enuine query, you will get slated by ne or 2 posters in particular.

Those who used to give excellent advice have mostly left the forum.

fits

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

. If you know anything about trade with what was Iraq and today’s Iran you will get my drift.
OP, get cash with order, no other way for the piddling amounts in question.
Cheers,
Pedro.

I think your views are outdated. Iran has opened up a lot in recent years.

delahuntv

delahuntv wrote: »

Those who used to give excellent advice have mostly left the forum.

Which posters are you talking about?

I don't understand why people can't be a bit more thicker skinned around here, its a business forum after all, and people need to be a lot tougher.

I just disagreed with some shoddy advice a guy gave the other day, and he went off in a huff and deleted his account, I didn't even say boo to him!

In this thread I think the OP showed some naivety (we have all done so in our careers at some point) and so he got his ass kicked a bit, which is to his benefit. He will really know what he should be careful on now and the real problems with what he was looking at (getting paid). In my opinion thats all positive for the OP and can only be to his benefit. Sure it wasn't sugar coated but thats just the way some people deliver advice. Often it takes that kind of deliver to get through to people, I wish I had had some of that in my 20's.
If you ask me the two best posters in this forum and the most valuable with the most knowledge are the one or two guys you are talking about as insulting. Without them the place would be severely less well off.

Plenty of times I've been given strong advice and been too stubborn at the time to take it, or got upset because I was patronised or whatever but it should all be water off a ducks back in business for an entrepreneur. Being sensitive as an entrepreneur is highly detrimental if you ask me.
Maybe I'm wrong and the OP is very upset but I doubt it and my feeling is he certainly won't be naive in dealing with Iran after this.

pedroeibar1

fits wrote: »

I think your views are outdated. Iran has opened up a lot in recent years.

I agree there is absolutely no doubt that Iran has become more open. My views are not outdated, Iran remains a very difficult place in which to do business and because of the (now-lifted) sanctions its economy has been declining. Currently, it probably is static for a variety of reasons, among them being depressed oil prices, oil accounting for about 80% of its export income. However, investment in the oil industry was heavily hit by the sanctions and that industry has not yet recovered. Add to that an economic downturn in China (its main trading partner), taking about 30% of its exports and the effect is obvious. Unemployment is high at more than 15% so household consumption will remain down. A current trend in the rise in "religious risk" throughout the world of Islam has a number of people worried, but that is not for here.

@ delahuntv, if you do not like what I post, attack its content, not me.:P

pedronomix

I refrained from posting on this as I have no experience of tradiing in that region, but it is quite clear that this is right uo pedro eile's field of knowledge and experience. As a long time exporter I do know that you only seek to do business with someone abroad that can satisfy yourself that you will get paid. A good test is to establish if the mark or the region is capable of being covered by trade insurance, if not walk away.

As to all the "watch with mother" PC drivel, it has no place in the jungle that is the world of commerce, only the tough survive in this game. Smart takes on board better knowledge/advice and uses it to their own advantage.

Bluefoam

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Splendid post Rudolf, really adds value. However, from what has been posted by the OP I doubt that the he is savvy enough on Iran to structure anything there (other than a bad debt), which is why I pushed him. It is a rather different "ghilayat min al'asmak" to China. Almost all trade with Iran is legal today, as is apparent to anyone who can use Google. However, payment always was, is and will be a problem. And it will get worse.

You ever see a Ferrari/Beemer/Merc drive down Bobby Sands Street in Teheran with a boom box on the go? (Actually, you ever been to Iran, Rudolf?) Can you imagine the harm one or two of the Sharia Police could inflict on a car playing the music of the Great Satan? (Not to mention a driver foolhardy enough to irritate them!)

It is a concern when any potential exporter places Iran in the same category as Grade A markets, as the OP did, and goes on to talk about payment by credit card or "wire". But then, lil old me probably knows nothing, ‘cos since the middle of the Iran-Iraq war (1980's) I was involved with supplying both sides and have in my career done large amounts of work in the ME among other areas.
“Guns, Butter & Videos”, (and the odd Toyota Corolla for the pilot’s families) and the rival stances on payment by the different authorities. If you know anything about trade with what was Iraq and today’s Iran you will get my drift.
OP, get cash with order, no other way for the piddling amounts in question.
Cheers,
Pedro.

What the hell are you taking about????!!!!

OP, I live just across the water from Iran & while I haven't visited yet, I can tell you that it is a normal functional country, irrespective of the propaganda/perception you'd get from living in Ireland...

I have friend who holiday there (skiing is particularly popular, no joke), I have colleagues who do business there regularly. I come in contact with Iranians on a daily basis...

While its true that allot of car audio equipment is available there, it is often of the knock off type. If you want high quality in this region it is often better to purchase from Europe, US or parts of Asia... Sometime the prices here are inflated, sometimes you need additional accessories that are not available in this limited market and sometimes the suppliers here are less reliable than elsewhere... Many people are happy to pay a premium to get the right product for them!

With regard to payment... They may have credit cards from other regions, Paypal accounts or wire services... these are functional across the internet and the world... If the OP is dealing as an online trader, he will be aware of how to collect payments etc.

I find it funny sometimes to hear how some uneducated people consider the outside world... Iran has its own idiosyncrasies and problems. It has its share of baddies, but it also has an overwhelming amount of good people too...

Bluefoam

Bluefoam wrote: »

What the hell are you taking about????!!!!

OP, I live just across the water from Iran & while I haven't visited yet, I can tell you that it is a normal functional country, irrespective of the propaganda/perception you'd get from living in Ireland...

Isn't iran run by a 10% minority of fundamental religious people who control the politics of the country, while the other 90% if they dissent or protest in the streets get shot and killed? As far as I know when the public last held a rally during the last election the army just opened fire on the crowd killing many dozens of people but reporting the deaths of just 7.
A place where music is banned, women have no rights, and men are executed for being gay.

Would you consider the above part of a normal functioning country?


Its a place that has a very different business culture, just like its arab neighbours have their own different business culture that needs experience to navigate.



A lot of understanding different business culture is actually doing business and having experience of their mentality. How they react to different problems and situations in comparison to say an Irish person, never mind the laws and trade rules. Its a very steep learning curve. Assuming everything is fine in a place so different from your own country is a mistake. And mistakes cost you money. Places like France can be hard, its a whole other level dealing with the middle east.

RUDOLF289

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

First question – Why would anyone in Iran want to source in-car entertainment systems from a supplier of in Ireland? Its near neighbours are renowned for electrical car accessories. Why not source there? Suspicious, no? (and sorry, I do not believe that an Iranian would be aware that your product/skillsets make you special.)

Even if the guy is genuine, you would find it a lot more trouble than it’s worth. Iran has the poorest business rating you could find, down there with Iraq, Libya, Nigeria, Syria, Ukraine, and Zimbabwe. Their financial system is creaky at best and even at ILOC levels not without problems. Forget it, concentrate on what you are good at

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Splendid post Rudolf, really adds value. However, from what has been posted by the OP I doubt that the he is savvy enough on Iran to structure anything there (other than a bad debt), which is why I pushed him. It is a rather different "ghilayat min al'asmak" to China. Almost all trade with Iran is legal today, as is apparent to anyone who can use Google. However, payment always was, is and will be a problem. And it will get worse.

You ever see a Ferrari/Beemer/Merc drive down Bobby Sands Street in Teheran with a boom box on the go? (Actually, you ever been to Iran, Rudolf?) Can you imagine the harm one or two of the Sharia Police could inflict on a car playing the music of the Great Satan? (Not to mention a driver foolhardy enough to irritate them!)

It is a concern when any potential exporter places Iran in the same category as Grade A markets, as the OP did, and goes on to talk about payment by credit card or "wire". But then, lil old me probably knows nothing, ‘cos since the middle of the Iran-Iraq war (1980's) I was involved with supplying both sides and have in my career done large amounts of work in the ME among other areas.
“Guns, Butter & Videos”, (and the odd Toyota Corolla for the pilot’s families) and the rival stances on payment by the different authorities. If you know anything about trade with what was Iraq and today’s Iran you will get my drift.
OP, get cash with order, no other way for the piddling amounts in question.
Cheers,
Pedro.

I am glad we have a genuine expert on Iran amongst the contributors to this forum. I am impressed by his modesty and humility and his eagerness to help and guide people in the right direction.

Thank you Pedroeibar1, you make the world a better place !

Cheers,
Rudolf289

pedroeibar1

pedronomix wrote: »

...... A good test is to establish if the mark or the region is capable of being covered by trade insurance, if not walk away.....

Fair point Pedronomix. Credit insurance cover for Iran is not available from the world’s biggest private specialist credit insurers (Atradius, Coface, Euler). AFAIK the main Irish banks are also closed for confirming Iranian ILCs. Iran is rated at the very bottom of the credit rating scale by all main agencies for payment risk, and near the bottom as a place in which to do business.

As for those who wrote comments on Iran being a beautiful place with lovely people, yes, it has some lovely scenery and nice people but has had series of oppressive political regimes and some of the nastiest people you can find anywhere. Syria also is a beautiful country, as is Lebanon and Iraq. None of that provides a guarantee of payment to me, nor does it mean I have them on my holiday destination list.

The OP has enough to go on, the inane contributions of many others speak for themselves..

pedroeibar1

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

I am glad we have a genuine expert on Iran amongst the contributors to this forum. I am impressed by his modesty and humility and his eagerness to help and guide people in the right direction.

Thank you Pedroeibar1, you make the world a better place !

Cheers,
Rudolf289

No problem Rudolf, as you are aware genuine experts tend to be blunt and sometimes upset people by their knowledge/experience. That is why I admire your posts on dealing with the Chinese market.
Cheers,
Pedro.

BuilderPlumber

Deleted User wrote: »

Isn't iran run by a 10% minority of fundamental religious people who control the politics of the country, while the other 90% if they dissent or protest in the streets get shot and killed? As far as I know when the public last held a rally during the last election the army just opened fire on the crowd killing many dozens of people but reporting the deaths of just 7.
A place where music is banned, women have no rights, and men are executed for being gay.

Would you consider the above part of a normal functioning country?


Its a place that has a very different business culture, just like its arab neighbours have their own different business culture that needs experience to navigate.



A lot of understanding different business culture is actually doing business and having experience of their mentality. How they react to different problems and situations in comparison to say an Irish person, never mind the laws and trade rules. Its a very steep learning curve. Assuming everything is fine in a place so different from your own country is a mistake. And mistakes cost you money. Places like France can be hard, its a whole other level dealing with the middle east.

The above describes SAUDI ARABIA more accurately than Iran. Iran's unelected 'religious' leadership are far from perfect but are preferable anyday to Saudi Arabia's. Iran's current moderate elected government is trying to open things up. Saudi Arabia's government has made no effort at all to modernise things. People have more rights in Iran than Saudi Arabia. Music is not bannned in Iran: restricted, yes, not too unlike Ireland in fact where only 2 genres (modern pop and boyfolk aka country pop) is promoted and where other genre practicioners cannot make a living out of music at all. Saudi Arabia has more restrictions on music than both Ireland and Iran. True, women should have a LOT more rights in Iran than they do but to say they have no rights is not true. They have a lot more rights than Saudi Arabian women.

Still, and all, we have no problem doing business with Saudi Arabia which is much more repressive than Iran. So, why not do business with Iran and you will find the less isolated Iran becomes, the more modern it will get.

BuilderPlumber

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I agree there is absolutely no doubt that Iran has become more open. My views are not outdated, Iran remains a very difficult place in which to do business and because of the (now-lifted) sanctions its economy has been declining. Currently, it probably is static for a variety of reasons, among them being depressed oil prices, oil accounting for about 80% of its export income. However, investment in the oil industry was heavily hit by the sanctions and that industry has not yet recovered. Add to that an economic downturn in China (its main trading partner), taking about 30% of its exports and the effect is obvious. Unemployment is high at more than 15% so household consumption will remain down. A current trend in the rise in "religious risk" throughout the world of Islam has a number of people worried, but that is not for here.

@ delahuntv, if you do not like what I post, attack its content, not me.:P

I think that we ignore and write off Iran as a place to do business at our peril. In recent decades, Iran has had its fair share of war, poor governments, bullying from arrogant US and Israeli regimes, superpower chess games, unfinished revolution, corruption, unfavourable treatment and the like. It also suffers from the fact that it is in a region where despite the fact that Iran itself has been relatively stable of late, the countries around it have frightened anyone from going to the region. To name a few: Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan with the first and third bordering Iran.

Iran has suffered from poor governance both in itself (Ahmadinejad's regime seemed to be the Basil Faulty of Iranian politics making one blunder after the next that hurt only Iran) and in the world (The Bush administration seemed to be the Basil Faulty of world politics making one blunder after the next that hurt not only Iran but America and the rest of the world too). But now Iran's much more competent Rouhani administration is improving things. True, a lot has to be done. But we should all look towards Iran and help it become what it has the potential to be. It has oil, a modern-outlooking popultation, other resources, tourist attractions and a strategic location. It does need to reform its banking sector and provide more access to services like credit cards. As sanctions cease, this will be more possible and mark my word, it will soon become the new Eastern Europe for developers! We need to be careful we do not start treating Iran and our banks like we once did Bulgaria and our banks!

BuilderPlumber

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The above describes SAUDI ARABIA more accurately than Iran. Iran's unelected 'religious' leadership are far from perfect but are preferable anyday to Saudi Arabia's. Iran's current moderate elected government is trying to open things up. Saudi Arabia's government has made no effort at all to modernise things. People have more rights in Iran than Saudi Arabia. Music is not bannned in Iran: restricted, yes, not too unlike Ireland in fact where only 2 genres (modern pop and boyfolk aka country pop) is promoted and where other genre practicioners cannot make a living out of music at all. Saudi Arabia has more restrictions on music than both Ireland and Iran. True, women should have a LOT more rights in Iran than they do but to say they have no rights is not true. They have a lot more rights than Saudi Arabian women.

Still, and all, we have no problem doing business with Saudi Arabia which is much more repressive than Iran. So, why not do business with Iran and you will find the less isolated Iran becomes, the more modern it will get.

Have you got some sources for this opinion? Because all western music is illegal in Iran, hardly comparable to Ireland!

Bluefoam

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you got some sources for this opinion? Because all western music is illegal in Iran, hardly comparable to Ireland!

Are you trying to suggest his entire post is irrelevant because he didn't go into detail about what music is or isn't playing on a loop on local radio?

Bluefoam

Bluefoam wrote: »

Are you trying to suggest his entire post is irrelevant because he didn't go into detail about what music is or isn't playing on a loop on local radio?

What I'm suggesting is people who post their opinions actually back them up with facts and what is the reality, and not compare a fashion trend in music to a place where most music is actually illegal and playing it will get you arrested.
But I suppose as business advice what counts as proper in your book is "I have a friend who holidays there" "I've met iranians" and 'my mates do business there'.

Heres an interesting take on music in Iran from a musician quite recently

http://womensenews.org/story/arts/141211/i-made-music-in-iran-defying-laws

Bluefoam

Deleted User wrote: »

What I'm suggesting is people who post their opinions actually back them up with facts and what is the reality, and not compare a fashion trend in music to a place where most music is actually illegal and playing it will get you arrested.
But I suppose as business advice what counts as proper in your book is "I have a friend who holidays there" "I've met Iranians" and 'my mates do business there'.

Heres an interesting take on music in Iran from a musician quite recently

http://womensenews.org/story/arts/141211/i-made-music-in-iran-defying-laws

I'm still failing to see your point... I'm just after finishing a meeting with an Iranian client... We're not in a position to turn down a couple of million dirhams because you don't like the fact that the authorities don't allow certain music types... They'll just go to someone else with the project...

People could say the same about doing business in oppressive Ireland because the authoritarian government, lead by the powerful catholic church won't allow certain types of operations that could save lives...

There's always different ways to look at these things. BTW, I heard through a third party that the abortion laws are restrictive in Ireland, I don't have the legislation in front of me, so my point (according to you) isn't relevant...

Anyway, the OP was looking for advice on any legal restrictions on doing business with Iran, not whether he could include Taylor Swift CD's as part of the deal...

Bluefoam

Skiing & Holidaying in Iran... I'm not including my friends Facebook photos...
http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2008/feb/24/iran.skiing

Doing business in Iran:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/doing-business-with-iran/frequently-asked-questions-on-doing-business-with-iran
While I have only managed projects from the outside... My colleugues did travel there on numberous projects for international brands... Now I concentrate on local projects, but still come in regular contact with Iranians as there at half a a million of them living here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriates_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates#Iranians
Obviously I'm not going to give you private details of my business to support my point...

Bluefoam

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm still failing to see your point... I'm just after finishing a meeting with an Iranian client... We're not in a position to turn down a couple of million dirhams because you don't like the fact that the authorities don't allow certain music types... They'll just go to someone else with the project...

People could say the same about doing business in oppressive Ireland because the authoritarian government, lead by the powerful catholic church won't allow certain types of operations that could save lives...

There's always different ways to look at these things. BTW, I heard through a third party that the abortion laws are restrictive in Ireland, I don't have the legislation in front of me, so my point (according to you) isn't relevant...

Anyway, the OP was looking for advice on any legal restrictions on doing business with Iran, not whether he could include Taylor Swift CD's as part of the deal...

My point is originally one poster stated Iran is - to paraphrase a normal enough place - to which I responded with various points to show that it wasn't and there is a vast cultural divide in terms of the laws and regulations. 10% rule the 100%. As to which Builder responded with a comparison to Ireland for music which simply is not true. I think its fair enough I shoot down that point since like I said you'll get arrested or band from the country for doing it. Given it looks like the OP is supplying music systems as part of his business it has some relevance if not the main point.
The wider cultural differences and business practices are very very different in Iran to Ireland. And while Builder is right that Saudi is probably worse, thats not really relevant.

Why can't you give details of your business deal here? I've done it numerous time with my different businesses to support what I'm saying. You don't have to name names or mention companies in particular, but if you can demonstrate what industry your in, how you went about doing your deal, how you'll get paid and what type of people/company your doing business with, surely this would be excellent advice and really help out the poster? And indeed prove your points!

Bluefoam

Deleted User wrote: »

My point is originally one poster stated Iran is - to paraphrase a normal enough place - to which I responded with various points to show that it wasn't and there is a vast cultural divide in terms of the laws and regulations. 10% rule the 100%. As to which Builder responded with a comparison to Ireland for music which simply is not true. I think its fair enough I shoot down that point since like I said you'll get arrested or band from the country for doing it. Given it looks like the OP is supplying music systems as part of his business it has some relevance if not the main point.
The wider cultural differences and business practices are very very different in Iran to Ireland. And while Builder is right that Saudi is probably worse, thats not really relevant.

Why can't you give details of your business deal here? I've done it numerous time with my different businesses to support what I'm saying. You don't have to name names or mention companies in particular, but if you can demonstrate what industry your in, how you went about doing your deal, how you'll get paid and what type of people/company your doing business with, surely this would be excellent advice and really help out the poster? And indeed prove your points!

I am involved in architectural services. I work for a firm & we have restrictions on releasing information about our projects to protect ourselves our clients and our projects. There are many sensitivities that we need to consider. We work with all types of people, from Government to Military to Developers to Family Businesses. As for payment, we sign a contract based on scope of works, set payment stages, invoice accordingly and receive cheques as payment. nothing unusual about that. Sometimes for excitement we get money transfers...

BuilderPlumber

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you got some sources for this opinion? Because all western music is illegal in Iran, hardly comparable to Ireland!

I've been there in the Khatami era. I am aware that most Western pop music is technically banned though older styles of 'Western' music are tolerated. All forms of Iranian music are permitted from what I could gather but female singers are not allowed on radio or TV. This is all a leftover from the war-era of the 1970s and 1980s coupled with over-paranoia from the treatment of Iran by the West. Khatami tried to change it and ran into Bush. Rouhani is currently trying to change it.

Another point about Iran is that although a lot of things are technically illegal, they are still now available and the regime tolerates them either out of the fact that over 90% of the regime often do no longer believe in these war-era laws anymore or else the regime deems it necessary to tolerate a lot in order for its unelected elite like the Revolutionary Guards and its defacto Shah Fr. Ali Khamenei to survive. The latter has been in that position as head priest and king since 1989 and he is not a fool whatever else he is.

Ireland on the other hand pushes certain styles and does not support others. Both countries from what I can gather do suffer from a 'who you know' mentality as probably do all countries!!!!

BuilderPlumber

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm still failing to see your point... I'm just after finishing a meeting with an Iranian client... We're not in a position to turn down a couple of million dirhams because you don't like the fact that the authorities don't allow certain music types... They'll just go to someone else with the project...

People could say the same about doing business in oppressive Ireland because the authoritarian government, lead by the powerful catholic church won't allow certain types of operations that could save lives...

There's always different ways to look at these things. BTW, I heard through a third party that the abortion laws are restrictive in Ireland, I don't have the legislation in front of me, so my point (according to you) isn't relevant...

Anyway, the OP was looking for advice on any legal restrictions on doing business with Iran, not whether he could include Taylor Swift CD's as part of the deal...

One thing for certain is that Iran is not the place the Western media have prior to the nuclear deal painted it. For sure, it has stupid, archaic, war era laws that do need change but on the other hand, when much of these were about to change then Bush scuppers that attempt with his un-needed 'Axis of Evil' speech (talk about the jet black kettle calling the grey pot black!). Then, the war-era paranoia gets a new lease of life.

As someone who was there, the fun thing is being there and hearing and seeing things that you thought you would not. You could go down one street and see giant posters of Fr Khomeini and Fr Khamenei, the current and last Shahs (in all but name) of Iran. Beneath these priestly posters, you will see and hear all types of music, all types of native and international culture and you will even come across places where you can drink alcohol legally!! You will also see centres of worship for all religions and find out there are Jews living in Tehran freely!! Most surprising of all are Iran's fairly liberal attitudes to sex change operations!!!

You dare not criticse the top priests like Fr. Khamenei and you do not tangle with the Revolutionary Guards. Stay away from any pro or anti regime demonstrations and avoid Sistan-Balochistan and the Iraq border area. Take note of any advice given and do not say anything kind about Saddam to pro or anti regime Iranians alike!!!

Iran under current moderate president Rouhani is changing. There will come a day when there will be no need for a Shah or Supreme Leader or whatever they want to call this position. Still and all, traces of the wartime laws will last for decades even when 95% of them are gone.

Ireland shows us this. Our religiousity is gone for decades BUT we still have traces of it still like pubs closed on Good Friday and Christmas Day, the Angelus and Catholic orders still in charge of schools. Perhaps, our music industry remains restrictive compared to other European countries for the same reason and entire genres of music from the 1940s-1980s seem to have largely bypassed Ireland!! There is more chance of hearing certain styles and seeing them recognised by the people in Iran than here ironically!!

Now, Iran can progress and will progress if the West support this process. War-time laws will disappear and Iran will become a modern democracy with all the pros and cons this will bring with it!! The battle between religious and secular and finding the right balance will play itself out like it has done in many places.

pedroeibar1

The OP asked about doing business in Iran. He is not looking for advice on skiing holidays, tastes in music or comparisons with religion in Ireland or Saudi Arabia. (Which, BTW is a totally different export market, grade A risk, unlike Iran, which is a bottom of the barrel risk.)

It also is highly inappropriate to compare payment experience from Iran to Saudi with payment from Iran to Ireland. Similarly, payment experience on “supply of services” is not comparable with supply of in-car hi-fi systems. Particularly so where stopping the supply of services can bring a project to a halt. Anyone (obviously very few here!) with a basic knowledge of credit control at an international level would understand that!

The world’s main credit insurers, with billions of dollars of trade insured, access to the top level people in most markets (including Iran), with offices in the ME region, all remain firmly closed for credit insurance in the Iranian market. I watch and listen to them, not some eejits on Boards.ie who think they know better.

If OP has any sense he will get payment in advance and let you geniuses advise the unwashed on how great a place Iran is in which to do business, go skiing or listen to music! Let them learn the hard way.

BuilderPlumber

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The OP asked about doing business in Iran. He is not looking for advice on skiing holidays, tastes in music or comparisons with religion in Ireland or Saudi Arabia. (Which, BTW is a totally different export market, grade A risk, unlike Iran, which is a bottom of the barrel risk.)

It also is highly inappropriate to compare payment experience from Iran to Saudi with payment from Iran to Ireland. Similarly, payment experience on “supply of services” is not comparable with supply of in-car hi-fi systems. Particularly so where stopping the supply of services can bring a project to a halt. Anyone (obviously very few here!) with a basic knowledge of credit control at an international level would understand that!

The world’s main credit insurers, with billions of dollars of trade insured, access to the top level people in most markets (including Iran), with offices in the ME region, all remain firmly closed for credit insurance in the Iranian market. I watch and listen to them, not some eejits on Boards.ie who think they know better.

If OP has any sense he will get payment in advance and let you geniuses advise the unwashed on how great a place Iran is in which to do business, go skiing or listen to music! Let them learn the hard way.

I am aware of this issue. Credit cards are as of now virtually non-existent and the Iranian economy has a long way to go. However, we should not assume this is how thing will remain forever. Germany was in 1944 or 1945 the LAST place anyone would want to do business but that changed once it was integrated again into the world. I believe Iran has the ability and resources to relatively quickly turn its economy, business structure, legal structure, etc. around. All is needed is intelligent and pragmatic governance and we are beginning to see that.

For years, war with Iraq, government infighting, poor governance, poor leadership and poor foreign policy both by Iran and by the West all took its toll. Iran should be on everyone's list as a future place to do business. Hassan Rouhani has already done more positive in 2 years than his predecessor did in 8 (Ahmadinejad proved a divisive figure and his government seems to be more interested in petty rivalry than improving Iran).

As for Saudi Arabia: 100 times more repressive with a lot less potential for positive change. BUT it has had no wars, isolation, etc. and is an established part of the world capitalist order for decades. Iran has not been part of that since 1979. The ten year war period from 1978 to 1988 in Iran where a civil war took out the pro-West monarchy followed by an opportunistic Saddam to launch an invasion ushering in the Iran-Iraq war did not help. In more recent times, the aftermath of 9/11 including Bush's remarks and the election of novice president Ahmadinejad at a time Iran needed someone like Rouhani who had experience did not help.

pedroeibar1

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

I am aware of this issue. Credit cards are as of now virtually non-existent and the Iranian economy has a long way to go. However, we should not assume this is how thing will remain forever. Germany was in 1944 or 1945 the LAST place anyone would want to do business but that changed once it was integrated again into the world. I believe Iran has the ability and resources to relatively quickly turn its economy, business structure, legal structure, etc. around. All is needed is intelligent and pragmatic governance and we are beginning to see that.

For years, war with Iraq, government infighting, poor governance, poor leadership and poor foreign policy both by Iran and by the West all took its toll. Iran should be on everyone's list as a future place to do business. Hassan Rouhani has already done more positive in 2 years than his predecessor did in 8 (Ahmadinejad proved a divisive figure and his government seems to be more interested in petty rivalry than improving Iran).

As for Saudi Arabia: 100 times more repressive with a lot less potential for positive change. BUT it has had no wars, isolation, etc. and is an established part of the world capitalist order for decades. Iran has not been part of that since 1979. The ten year war period from 1978 to 1988 in Iran where a civil war took out the pro-West monarchy followed by an opportunistic Saddam to launch an invasion ushering in the Iran-Iraq war did not help. In more recent times, the aftermath of 9/11 including Bush's remarks and the election of novice president Ahmadinejad at a time Iran needed someone like Rouhani who had experience did not help.

If you and your supporters are such experts how come you have yet to advise the OP on how to get paid and instead post economic and socio-political waffle?

Exporters don’t give a f@rt about ‘political repression’, they care only about being paid. That happens when trading in Saudi, but is most unlikely to be easily done in Iran, a place at the very bottom of the places in which to do business.

Put the figures in perspective – about 200 Irish companies sell about €3 Billion annually to Saudi/Gulf states. Last year total Irish exports to Iran amounted to about €50 million, mainly Coke/Pepsi concentrate with some pharma. , both products that ALWAYS are top of the queue for payment in any sand-pit country that bans alcohol.

This thread is about a novice exporter looking to sell to Iran. Trade with Iran in the short to medium term for LARGE companies is far over their time horizon. For SME’s it should not even be on their radar as it is a waste of effort, problematic and a recipe on how to lose money.

No Irish politician or trade mission has gone out to Iran in almost a decade, no missions are planned, no financial support is available from the banks or government. Ireland has no export credit scheme, the private insurance market will not provide cover. The embassy we had out there is long closed.
And no, it would not be a good idea to open one, we need to wait several years before it would be worthwhile going out there.

BuilderPlumber

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

If you and your supporters are such experts how come you have yet to advise the OP on how to get paid and instead post economic and socio-political waffle?

Exporters don’t give a f@rt about ‘political repression’, they care only about being paid. That happens when trading in Saudi, but is most unlikely to be easily done in Iran, a place at the very bottom of the places in which to do business.

Put the figures in perspective – about 200 Irish companies sell about €3 Billion annually to Saudi/Gulf states. Last year total Irish exports to Iran amounted to about €50 million, mainly Coke/Pepsi concentrate with some pharma. , both products that ALWAYS are top of the queue for payment in any sand-pit country that bans alcohol.

This thread is about a novice exporter looking to sell to Iran. Trade with Iran in the short to medium term for LARGE companies is far over their time horizon. For SME’s it should not even be on their radar as it is a waste of effort, problematic and a recipe on how to lose money.

No Irish politician or trade mission has gone out to Iran in almost a decade, no missions are planned, no financial support is available from the banks or government. Ireland has no export credit scheme, the private insurance market will not provide cover. The embassy we had out there is long closed.
And no, it would not be a good idea to open one, we need to wait several years before it would be worthwhile going out there.

First, you need not be so rude :mad: I am aware that exporters do not care about dictatorship in a country unless it affects the trade.
Second off, how does anyone get paid anywhere: make trusted contacts.
Third, I think it is rather obvious from what I said that Iran may not be the most ideal place at present to do business with but that will change.
Fourth, relating to third, the marketplaces, laws and politics of all regions will change. Having a backup place to replace somewhere else that goes down is always a good idea.
Finally, it depends on how one wants to get paid: cash? credit? bank transfers? Iran is currently poorly equipped to deal with international trade compared to those others including Saudi Arabia. My advice was quite clear in noting down Iran as a future place to trade with when it gets itself ready for this. History has shown that Germany, Eastern Europe and China have become trade giants relatively overnight and were poorly equipped for it until the governments decided to do something about it. Iran should be no different: if they want to trade and assure people they will get paid, it will happen.

pedroeibar1

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

First, you need not be so rude :mad: I am aware that exporters do not care about dictatorship in a country unless it affects the trade.
Second off, how does anyone get paid anywhere: make trusted contacts.
Third, I think it is rather obvious from what I said that Iran may not be the most ideal place at present to do business with but that will change.
Fourth, relating to third, the marketplaces, laws and politics of all regions will change. Having a backup place to replace somewhere else that goes down is always a good idea.
Finally, it depends on how one wants to get paid: cash? credit? bank transfers? Iran is currently poorly equipped to deal with international trade compared to those others including Saudi Arabia. My advice was quite clear in noting down Iran as a future place to trade with when it gets itself ready for this. History has shown that Germany, Eastern Europe and China have become trade giants relatively overnight and were poorly equipped for it until the governments decided to do something about it. Iran should be no different: if they want to trade and assure people they will get paid, it will happen.

Stop hiding behind silly accusations; I’m not rude, I’m blunt, because I have a low threshold for BS. The more BS I encounter, the blunter I become. Writing stuff like “Finally, it depends on how one wants to get paid: cash? credit? bank transfers?” makes you sound like a clueless Third Under Secretary for PR at their Embassy on Merrion Ave. So answer the question for the benefit of the OP and all potential exporters to that market– state clearly how the OP should structure his payment mechanism or STFU and go away.

BuilderPlumber

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Stop hiding behind silly accusations; I’m not rude, I’m blunt, because I have a low threshold for BS. The more BS I encounter, the blunter I become. Writing stuff like “Finally, it depends on how one wants to get paid: cash? credit? bank transfers?” makes you sound like a clueless Third Under Secretary for PR at their Embassy on Merrion Ave. So answer the question for the benefit of the OP and all potential exporters to that market– state clearly how the OP should structure his payment mechanism or STFU and go away.

Rude/blunt/crude/immature, all the same meaning to me. That people cannot conduct a discussion and debate without getting hostile and insulting. That smacks of being ignorant and unprofessional. And what is BS anyway? Just because you don't agree with it or you find it as 'waffle'. I will consider any post that uses hostile language as a form of harrassment. Disagree by all means but be polite. There is a place to insult each others statements and that is called the Dail!! I have a low tolerance of people being hostile, ignorant and insulting and hiding behind being blunt. Please don't reply to my posts again.

I gave valid points about Iran and its potential as a future place to do business. I did not deserve to be harassed by someone who cannot conduct a debate without being hostile.

Buttercake

I can think of another word rhyming with blunt

pedroeibar1

Ok. I take that as an answer, (finally! ) - you have no idea of how the OP can get paid.:rolleyes: It was not a debate, you made no valid points.

pedroeibar1

Buttercake wrote: »

I can think of another word rhyming with blunt

That coming from the person who wrote this says a lot!

BuilderPlumber

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Ok. I take that as an answer, (finally! ) - you have no idea of how the OP can get paid.:rolleyes: It was not a debate, you made no valid points.

I don't see how some people get their kicks. Getting paid is between the OP and his/her Iranian client. For the umpteenth time, it is trust. TRUST that little 5 letter word. The OP has to decide if it is too risky to do business with Iran or not or decide even if the correspondence 'from Iran' was yet another scam email written by someone closer to home! Getting paid is about trust and getting advice from experts in Iranian law if one is cautious. Get the money upfront and in the bank before any deal is made.

Please don't reply to me again. I have better things to do that trying to explain the obvious to someone who comes in here just wanting to stir things up.

pedroeibar1

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

For the umpteenth time, it is trust. TRUST that little 5 letter word.

Trust? Trust? Trust on payment from Iran? Are you for real? (The word BTW is "Imsh'allah")

FWIW if CIA was not forthcoming I would run but if I really needed the business the way I would structure the deal is as follows:-

Assuming the order to the OP is substantial, the OP asks the buyer to go to a "decent" bank in Iran and ask them to open an irrevocable letter of credit (ILC) in his favour (i..e. OP is the beneficiary). In brief, the ILC is a guarantee given by the Iranian bank (not the importer) to OP’s bank that $X will be paid on presentation of Y documents. However, that does not ensure payment, because the importer can meet the terms. remit the funds to his bank who remit the funds to the Iranian central bank but the funds might not necessarily be transferred by the Iranian Central Bank to Ireland. So what is needed is a “confirmation” of the ILC by an external bank, i.e. a bank in Europe / Grade A market must guarantee payment by the Iranian bank.

OP needs to research the costs of opening the ILC and the availability and cost of the confirmation. My guess is that the deal will not be done unless it – as I said ages ago – is Cash In Advance.

Mods – please close this, it is done to death.