Social welfare roadside inspections-Legal?

mulbot · 10-10-2015 9:30pm #1

Ok,so a mate of mine has just posted on facebook pictures of a Garda checkpoint today,where the snakeuponsyas were stopping cars so that the "social welfare inspectors" could interrogate people.
This is unbelievable,is it even legal?
12079128_892858124136801_1371093129706414702_n.jpg?oh=ed407f647195d1ee00634831c5ca09cc&oe=56D14B2E

12079128_892858124136801_1371093129706414702_n.jpg?oh=ed407f647195d1ee00634831c5ca09cc&oe=56D14B2E

Sala · 10-10-2015 9:34pm

I have no idea but it's interesting.. Can you clarify 1) how dos your friend know they were from DSP and 2) what exactly were they looking for/ asking ?

Gatling · 10-10-2015 9:35pm

There stopping people whom they have received information about claiming benefits and working undeclared there not just random stops

Mr.Carter · 10-10-2015 9:36pm

Yes they can...been doing it for years, mainly on routes to the North.
They even hit the Airports now and then.

Caovyn Lineah · 10-10-2015 9:37pm

They'll stop people in vans who look like they are on the way to work who may also be claiming welfare payments.

Sala · 10-10-2015 9:38pm

Gatling wrote: »

There stopping people whom they have received information about claiming benefits and working undeclared there not just random stops

That makes sense- if they are aware a crime may be committed. I can't imagine them having checkpoints to check everyone who passes by to ascertain if they are on social welfare and they are claiming properly

roy rodgers · 10-10-2015 9:39pm

I remember years(15 years) ago this going on.
They would arrive on site and look for you pps number employer address etc. I know a few others over the years having the same checks but never heard of anyone getting done because of them

lotmc · 10-10-2015 9:40pm

I presume they are frying to detect welfare fraud i.e. Theft from the state.

Isnt that what the Gardai are supposed to be doing, or do you think fraud / theft from the state is OK?

Gatling · 10-10-2015 9:41pm

Sala wrote: »

That makes sense- if they are aware a crime may be committed. I can't imagine them having checkpoints to check everyone who passes by to ascertain if they are on social welfare and they are claiming properly

It's been run for the last 2 years to a fair amount of success if reports are true ,

JillyQ · 10-10-2015 9:42pm

Why wouldn't they be legal. Not declaring what you earn & claiming the dole is fraud

Mr.Carter · 10-10-2015 9:42pm

I remember a load of "welfare tourists" got caught when that volcano thing when off a few years ago and flights where cancelled everywhere in Europe.

pablo128 · 10-10-2015 9:43pm

Could you just give your details to the Gardai and refuse to speak to the DSP lads? I have no dealings with them, so I wouldn't be inclined to be giving them my details.

Folllowing on from that, would the Gardai have the right to pass my info onto them?

JillyQ · 10-10-2015 9:44pm

pablo128 wrote: »

Could you just give your details to the Gardai and refuse to speak to the DSP lads? I have no dealings with them, so I wouldn't be inclined to be giving them my details.

Folllowing on from that, would the Gardai have the right to pass my info onto them?

If you have nothing to hide what is the problem giving them your information

mulbot · 10-10-2015 9:45pm

It a shared post so i dont think was his pics,but i'll put up what was written

Sala · 10-10-2015 9:46pm

Gatling wrote: »

It's been run for the last 2 years to a fair amount of success if reports are true ,

Sorry what has been run? General checkpoints to stop everyone, or just people they know are on welfare and may be working?

mulbot · 10-10-2015 9:47pm

Mr.Carter · 10-10-2015 9:47pm

pablo128 wrote: »

Could you just give your details to the Gardai and refuse to speak to the DSP lads? I have no dealings with them, so I wouldn't be inclined to be giving them my details.

Folllowing on from that, would the Gardai have the right to pass my info onto them?

Sure the Gardai will give the details to the DSP anyway....no foul, no harm....you'll never hear from them but if you're up to something expect a visit

Gatling · 10-10-2015 9:48pm

Sala wrote: »

Sorry what has been run? General checkpoints to stop everyone, or just people they know are on welfare and may be working?

The new garda /welfare inspection checkpoints set up across the country not just one or two areas but every county

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/social-welfare-fraud-squad-lies-in-wait-for-white-van-man-1.2173193

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gardai-to-join-battle-against-social-welfare-fraud-265511.html

mulbot · 10-10-2015 9:48pm

".The garda stopping so the social welfare can interrogate you....actually, I was told a member of the RSA, who were also at the checkpoint, wanted to have a word with me but when I asked them they said no, nothing to do with them, I got out of my van to call the garda to ask what's up and when I rounded the back of my van I realized this one from the social welfare had my passenger door open and had taken a private letter which was protruding from my glove box and retrieved my information from it ... Is this legal here?"

That's what was posted with about 6 pictures

Gatling · 10-10-2015 9:52pm

mulbot wrote: »

".The garda stopping so the social welfare can interrogate you....actually, I was told a member of the RSA, who were also at the checkpoint, wanted to have a word with me but when I asked them they said no, nothing to do with them, I got out of my van to call the garda to ask what's up and when I rounded the back of my van I realized this one from the social welfare had my passenger door open and had taken a private letter which was protruding from my glove box and retrieved my information from it ... Is this legal here?"

That's what was posted with about 6 pictures

If it's on Facebook it's usually not always true it's been doing rounds since yesterday

mulbot · 10-10-2015 9:53pm

Gatling wrote: »

If it's on Facebook it's usually not always true

I don't think this is fake

mulbot · 10-10-2015 9:55pm

Gatling · 10-10-2015 9:56pm

mulbot wrote: »

I don't think this is fake

I'd say he was stopped alright anything after is anyone's guess if it happened they way the poster claimed

Mr.Carter · 10-10-2015 9:58pm

mulbot wrote: »

".The garda stopping so the social welfare can interrogate you....actually, I was told a member of the RSA, who were also at the checkpoint, wanted to have a word with me but when I asked them they said no, nothing to do with them, I got out of my van to call the garda to ask what's up and when I rounded the back of my van I realized this one from the social welfare had my passenger door open and had taken a private letter which was protruding from my glove box and retrieved my information from it ... Is this legal here?"

That's what was posted with about 6 pictures

Sure you used to bring back cars for an extra few bob...maybe you do have to worry ;-)

Streetwalker · 10-10-2015 9:58pm

mulbot wrote: »

".The garda stopping so the social welfare can interrogate you....actually, I was told a member of the RSA, who were also at the checkpoint, wanted to have a word with me but when I asked them they said no, nothing to do with them, I got out of my van to call the garda to ask what's up and when I rounded the back of my van I realized this one from the social welfare had my passenger door open and had taken a private letter which was protruding from my glove box and retrieved my information from it ... Is this legal here?"

That's what was posted with about 6 pictures

Completely illegal search. A decent lawyer would have a field day with that and rightfully so.

mulbot · 10-10-2015 10:00pm

Streetwalker wrote: »

Completely illegal search. A decent lawyer would have a field day with that and rightfully so.

If as the previous poster said,that the whole scenario is as described,you would think it's illegal,it seems there are a few vehicles too,so looks like a random stop and not targeted,but who knows

Gatling · 10-10-2015 10:01pm

Seems they can.
Would a privately owned company vehicle be considered a premises .

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/SWI---Powers-of-Social-Welfare-Inspectors.aspx

pablo128 · 10-10-2015 10:06pm

Gatling wrote: »

Seems they can.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/SWI---Powers-of-Social-Welfare-Inspectors.aspx

If you count a work van as a workplace, then yes, but going by the piece you linked, they can't go near a private vehicle.

Gatling · 10-10-2015 10:06pm

pablo128 wrote: »

If you count a work van as a workplace, then yes, but going by the piece you linked, they can't go near a private vehicle.

Edited my post .that's my thinking

pablo128 · 10-10-2015 10:09pm

Gatling wrote: »

Edited my post .that's my thinking

Actually if I was in one of the work vans, I would give them my details no problem, but not if I was in my own car.

cork2 · 10-10-2015 10:18pm

This is happening with a long time. There are two points on roads in Cork where I have come across these checkpoints every 3 or 4 months. Sometimes Customs are there too to dip you tank for green diesel. They're looking for people on the dole who are working, the revenue are doing the same by doing spot checks on building sites. To be honest it's a good thing. There's way too many people working and drawing the dole, it's a joke the way they get away with it!!

mickdw · 10-10-2015 10:33pm

Mate of mine on PAYE driving unmarked jeep belonging to his work company was stopped randomly at a checkpoint. Asked who he worked for, where he was going, who owned the vehicle, his pps and how much he earned. All this with fellow staff member in seat beside him.
Disgraceful carry on. I'm all for stopping suspect people who may be working while on dole but surely ID, PPS and stating that you are in fact employed would be sufficient in all cases.
On a separate note, I personally experienced 2 inspectors run into my self build house building project, run in the door, up ladder with zero protective clothing etc. Highly illegal imo.
All very disappointed to find only myself there.

Manach · 10-10-2015 10:34pm

As the state can decide what is legal, thus actions by its servants could generally be supposed to be lawful. Whether or not it is right or even effective, given the kabuki nature of law & order theatre that support both the welfare state and security state, the fact in might inconience the general public is of course of little matter to them ....

JillyQ · 10-10-2015 10:37pm

cork2 wrote: »

This is happening with a long time. There are two points on roads in Cork where I have come across these checkpoints every 3 or 4 months. Sometimes Customs are there too to dip you tank for green diesel. They're looking for people on the dole who are working, the revenue are doing the same by doing spot checks on building sites. To be honest it's a good thing. There's way too many people working and drawing the dole, it's a joke the way they get away with it!!

Totally agree with you have come across a few off them as well. Customs social welfare & Gardai doing the MAT. Don't see why anyone would have a problem with them.

cork2 · 10-10-2015 10:38pm

mickdw wrote: »

Mate of mine on PAYE driving unmarked jeep belonging to his work company was stopped randomly at a checkpoint. Asked who he worked for, where he was going, who owned the vehicle, his pps and how much he earned. All this with fellow staff member in seat beside him.
Disgraceful carry on. I'm all for stopping suspect people who may be working while on dole but surely ID, PPS and stating that you are in fact employed would be sufficient in all cases.
On a separate note, I personally experienced 2 inspectors run into my self build house building project, run in the door, up ladder with zero protective clothing etc. Highly illegal imo.
All very disappointed to find only myself there.

Tbh in the instance of the self build that's not their usual form. I've met them on sites a lot and I've seen them approach the site from multiple directions to catch runners but always wearing all of their personal protective clothing and with safe pass cards on clear view.

StudentDad · 10-10-2015 10:42pm

Strange how the State has the resources to chase down those who may be on a few nixers, (chasing people on building sites etc) but can't ensure the building regs are adhered to in terms of fire safety etc.

SD

Gatling · 10-10-2015 10:44pm

StudentDad wrote: »

Strange how the State has the resources to chase down those who may be on a few nixers, but can't ensure the building regs are adhered to in terms of fire safety etc.

SD

Chase down those committing welfare fraud ,

building regulations totally separate issue

StudentDad · 10-10-2015 10:46pm

Gatling wrote: »

Chase down those committing welfare fraud ,

building regulations totally separate issue

Perhaps. Just highlights the priorities

SD

cork2 · 10-10-2015 10:46pm

StudentDad wrote: »

Strange how the State has the resources to chase down those who may be on a few nixers, (chasing people on building sites etc) but can't ensure the building regs are adhered to in terms of fire safety etc.

SD

If it were only " a few nixers " it wouldn't be too bad. It's happening on a way bigger scale though.

Thomas OBrien01 · 10-10-2015 10:47pm

Seen this happen a lot in mid Louth, Welfare interrogate lads with vans who park near welfare office on signing on day. Looks like the cops have no crime these days to chase. Welfare are like gestopo . Seen them making people open back of vans for inspection. If it were me I would say why and get a search warrant for private property.

mickdw · 10-10-2015 10:49pm

cork2 wrote: »

Tbh in the instance of the self build that's not their usual form. I've met them on sites a lot and I've seen them approach the site from multiple directions to catch runners but always wearing all of their personal protective clothing and with safe pass cards on clear view.

Of late, I'm told that is very much the case yes.
Still, I don't really see how even having their ppe and safe pass on display allows them to access a working site without site induction or else them being escorted around site by staff member.
I'm not aware of any special provision that allows them access a site in a manner that contravenes HSA legislation.

Sala · 10-10-2015 10:50pm

mickdw wrote: »

On a separate note, I personally experienced 2 inspectors run into my self build house building project, run in the door, up ladder with zero protective clothing etc. Highly illegal imo.
All very disappointed to find only myself there.

Don't want to go too far off topic, but I presume this was a building project you were arranging yourself? Does the liability for social welfare/ revenue fraud lie with the builder/employees or could the householder who hired them be liable?

pablo128 · 10-10-2015 10:53pm

mickdw wrote: »

Of late, I'm told that is very much the case yes.
Still, I don't really see how even having their ppe and safe pass on display allows them to access a working site without site induction or else them being escorted around site by staff member.
I'm not aware of any special provision that allows them access a site in a manner that contravenes HSA legislation.

Mick, the link in post #27 by Gatling gives the info as to where they can legally enter unannounced, and the workplace is one of them.

Littlehorny · 10-10-2015 10:53pm

I thought legally you were only obliged to give give your name and address to a guard. If they ask you where you are going and what are doing, you can legally state that this is a free country and unless you are under suspicion of commiting a crime then you don't have to tell them anything. They can then let you on your way or arrest you and allow you to get a lawyer.

relax carry on · 10-10-2015 10:58pm

Multi agency checkpoints have being going on for years. The Gardaí, Customs, Revenue, DSP, RSA, the kitchen sink etc sometimes all join in together at various checkpoint sites as one of the agencies normally gets a hit off one or more vehicles stopped. It's a useful exercise in interdepartmental cooperation and looks good. People complain they want agencies to cooperate and share information but give out when it happens. Can they ever win?

If anyone stopped and interviewed by any of the agencies wants to complain about how they were dealt with and/or issues with legalities then follow up with the agencies complaints procedures.

cork2 · 10-10-2015 10:59pm

Maybe it's possible to refuse the entry, I don't know. As for induction, let's be realistic, yes they should do it but it's never ever going to happen. The last time I met them on site I was the senior member of staff onsite. They were directed to me, they showed me the safe passes, explained their intent and asked me to get everyone together for about ten minutes. Once this was done I walked the site with them while they looked for lads dodging them, they handed everyone a form to fill up, collected them up thanked everyone for their cooperation and left. It took very little time and we're a very busy company. There's nothing whatsoever to hide and health and safety or revenue are welcome anytime.

danswivme · 10-10-2015 11:02pm

It's getting more like Nazi Germany every day !

Pawwed Rig · 10-10-2015 11:05pm

JillyQ wrote: »

If you have noting to hide what is the problem giving them your information

Someone always says this

Why not put cameras in everyone's house?

If you have nothing to hide what is the problem??

LeinsterDub · 10-10-2015 11:06pm

danswivme wrote: »

It's getting more like Nazi Germany every day !

/thread Godwin

mickdw · 10-10-2015 11:10pm

cork2 wrote: »

Maybe it's possible to refuse the entry, I don't know. As for induction, let's be realistic, yes they should do it but it's never ever going to happen. The last time I met them on site I was the senior member of staff onsite. They were directed to me, they showed me the safe passes, explained their intent and asked me to get everyone together for about ten minutes. Once this was done I walked the site with them while they looked for lads dodging them, they handed everyone a form to fill up, collected them up thanked everyone for their cooperation and left. It took very little time and we're a very busy company. There's nothing whatsoever to hide and health and safety or revenue are welcome anytime.

But what you have explained is 100 percent how things should happen. They don't need induction or safe pass if escorted by staff as you did.
My issue is with them running all over sites unsupervised and in all seriousness it can be dangerous. It is more of an issue on small sites.
I have also dealt with them on a commercial site as the site manager for the main contractor at the time. They accessed the site office as all visitors were advised to do and stated their case.
They did not attempt to enter the site and run up scaffolds.

Carlos Orange · 10-10-2015 11:12pm

danswivme wrote: »

It's getting more like Nazi Germany every day !

First they came for the welfare cheats, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a welfare cheat.

Social welfare roadside inspections-Legal?

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