30 Kwh Leaf showing up on Nissan.ie

http://www.nissan.ie/vehicle/leaf/grades-and-engines

3 K extra, so it would probably cost too much to upgrade, probably 5 K for my leaf + 3 K for 30 Kwh ?

That's about 8 K I'd rather put into the MK II or whatever is around in 2018.

Should be good for 140-180 Kms max

cros13

Spotted something I didn't know about... electric parking brake on the SVE.

simdan

cros13 wrote:

Spotted something I didn't know about... electric parking brake on the SVE.

Yeah, noticed that on the specs too.. It's not on my sve anyway.. Have the standard footbrake, which I don't use anyway.

Not on mine either.

Roen

Didn't the first gen leaf have an electronic brake? I seem to remember reading plenty of complaints about it.
Edit: Or am I thinking about hand brake versus parking brake?

Padraig Mor

I wonder does the €3k include the 6kW charger, like France? Or will they be charging Paddy extra for that? I notice the metallic paint has gone up 10% too. I wondering are they still charging the record breaking (and in no way cartel - like) €1k for delivery?

BoatMad

Said it to the dealer , he seemed surprised

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Said it to the dealer , he seemed surprised

Surprised about what ? What dealer ?

Padraig Mor

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I wonder does the €3k include the 6kW charger, like France? Or will they be charging Paddy extra for that? I notice the metallic paint has gone up 10% too. I wondering are they still charging the record breaking (and in no way cartel - like) €1k for delivery?

Yes the 6.6 kW charger is included, would be pretty useless with the 3.3 Kw.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes the 6.6 kW charger is included, would be pretty useless with the 3.3 Kw.

The 6k6 is still extra at 900 , it's not included as standard

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

The 6k6 is still extra at 900 , it's not included as standard

No it's typical of an Irish main dealer site, half assed with incorrect information !

If you look again you'll see where the 30 kwh is a 3 K option, they just haven't properly updated the site, they just did a quick half arsed job of it.

The 30 kwh battery is standard with the SV and SVE Leaf, it's not optional and the same for the 6.6 kw charger !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

No it's typical of an Irish main dealer site, half assed with incorrect information !

If you look again you'll see where the 30 kwh is a 3 K option, they just haven't properly updated the site, they just did a quick half arsed job of it.

The 30 kwh battery is standard with the SV and SVE Leaf, it's not optional and the same for the 6.6 kw charger !

Sheesh mad-lad I'm currently talking to the dealer about buying one , where do you get your nonsense

The 30 kWh battery IS AN OPTION on the SV and SVE. It can be ordered with the existing battery if you want

The 6.6 kW charger is also an option and still costs € 900 euro

The cold pack option is €300 euro.

Otherwise my dealer is royally conning me and I've no reason to believe he is.

The web site is exactly correct as far as I can see

I just checked the UK site and you're right, I see the 24 still there.

You don't have to be suck a prick though !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I just checked the UK site and you're right, I see the 24 still there.

You don't have to be suck a prick though !

Only because you keep insisting , even in the face of someone who is buying one is telling you otherwise.

Perhaps it you paused to fact check before you post.

And let's get it right , you were simply wrong and spouting nonsense. I merely pointed that out. If that makes me a prick, I think you're the one with the issues.

We will muddle on ....

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

The 30 kWh battery IS AN OPTION on the SV and SVE. It can be ordered with the existing battery if you want

The 6.6 kW charger is also an option and still costs € 900 euro

The cold pack option is €300 euro.

Otherwise my dealer is royally conning me and I've no reason to believe he is.

Never ascribe to malevolence what can be explained by simple incompetence! In my experience, if you do your research, you will generally know more about a car than dealership sales staff. 6kW charger definitely comes bundled with the bigger battery in France. Maybe it's different here, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Nissan factory only supplies the two as a combined package and the website is just wrong. Hey, maybe it's correct, but it definitely warrants further investigation with other dealers. Bigger battery and faster charger makes a compelling FCP-free package for many longer journeys. €3k makes the combination an option worth considering for many; €4k makes it a tougher call.

BoatMad

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Never ascribe to malevolence what can be explained by simple incompetence! In my experience, if you do your research, you will generally know more about a car than dealership sales staff. 6kW charger definitely comes bundled with the bigger battery in France. Maybe it's different here, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Nissan factory only supplies the two as a combined package and the website is just wrong. Hey, maybe it's correct, but it definitely warrants further investigation with other dealers. Bigger battery and faster charger makes a compelling FCP-free package for many longer journeys. €3k makes the combination an option worth considering for many; €4k makes it a tougher call.

Oh for peats sake , you think I have spoken to one dealer only. I'm touring the country

What's happens in frsnce the uk or unpa lumps land is irrelevant to what nissan Ireland decide to do.

It is as I decribed it, as a call to any leaf dealer in Ireland will verify.

Car companies play the bundling game in markets all the time. Different trim levels , different option packages , different accessories , different build configurations , different PCP rated etc etc etc etc ....

I am almost certain I saw the 30 Kwh on the Nissan.ie site SV and SVE only with 30 Kwh and 6.6 kw.

The U.S leaf includes the 6.6 kw with the 30 Kwh and Nissan don't usually change their specs for important components like this.

If it is indeed a 900 Euro's extra then I wouldn't bother paying almost 4K for the 30 kwh and 6.6 kw charger. Without the 6.6 the 30 kwh will 7 hrs for the 24 Kwh and 9 for the 36Kwh imo that's too long. For a complete charge so roughly 6 and 8 hrs because it will not be dead when you start to charge.

If the 6.6 is included with the 30 kwh in the U.K and U.S then I can't see it not being included here because as I said all leafs are sold with the same drive train and chargers wherever it's sold.

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

Oh for peats sake , you think I have spoken to one dealer only. I'm touring the country

What's happens in frsnce the uk or unpa lumps land is irrelevant to what nissan Ireland decide to do.

It is as I decribed it, as a call to any leaf dealer in Ireland will verify.

Car companies play the bundling game in markets all the time. Different trim levels , different option packages , different accessories , different build configurations , different PCP rated etc etc etc etc ....

No need to be so defensive, I'm trying to help and save you money. My point was that it may have been the case that the larger battery was only available in combination with the 6kW charger whatever the market, and that Nissan Ireland simply didn't get the memo. Anyway I've checked further and while the US as well only sells both together, in the UK they're separate options so chances are it's the same here alright. Big battery only £1600 there, but faster charger an incredible £1200.

The U.K option might not be correct, as I said Nissan don't change important components for different markets, they haven't up to now.

cros13

BoatMad is correct the 30kWh is an option for €3k. 6.6kW charger not included.

I'm copied by contacts in Nissan on a lot of the documentation they send to dealers so that's where the info i've posted in relation to pricing has come from.

If that's the case then there's no way I would pay for the 30 kwh + 6.6 kwh charger.

Nissan are seriously taking the piss.

There's a reason the 6.6 is included with the 30 Kwh Leaf in the U.S and that's the 3.3 Kw is useless with 30 kwh or 27 usable whatever.

So the 6.6 Kw charger is standard in the U.S and French Leaf with 30 Kwh.

On The USA SV and SVE the 30 Kwh is standard, no 24 Kwh option.

I suppose when you look back in 2011 the Leaf cost 29,000 Euro's, that's the equivalent of the SVE except it didn't have heated front and rear seats or heated steering.

So when you look at the cost of the 30 kwh inc 6.6 Kwh charger it's actually not that bad.

BoatMad

Padraig Mor wrote: »

No need to be so defensive, I'm trying to help and save you money. My point was that it may have been the case that the larger battery was only available in combination with the 6kW charger whatever the market, and that Nissan Ireland simply didn't get the memo. Anyway I've checked further and while the US as well only sells both together, in the UK they're separate options so chances are it's the same here alright. Big battery only £1600 there, but faster charger an incredible £1200.

Making the two together 2800, around € 3800, funny that !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

If that's the case then there's no way I would pay for the 30 kwh + 6.6 kwh charger.

Nissan are seriously taking the piss.

There's a reason the 6.6 is included with the 30 Kwh Leaf in the U.S and that's the 3.3 Kw is useless with 30 kwh or 27 usable whatever.

I know , it has made me stop and think

GreyDad

30kWh charges up to about 80% in about the same time as the 24kWh, apparently, due to chemistry tweaks and new charging profiles etc so charging times with either option shouldn't be an issue either way you go.

GreyDad

GreyDad wrote: »

30kWh charges up to about 80% in about the same time as the 24kWh, apparently, due to chemistry tweaks and new charging profiles etc so charging times with either option shouldn't be an issue either way you go.

That's only using the DC rapid chargers.

GreyDad

I've never seen that distinction made, interesting, are you sure?

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

That's only using the DC rapid chargers.

Relevant links to support claim , please

simdan

Why do people buy svs with the cold pack? I don't understand if you're doing finance why not go for the SVE? Alloys that actually suit the car, proper stereo, all around cameras, cold pack, metallic and leather. These are key factors for me. No brainer for the difference.

P.S. the Nissan website is poor, is not easily understood which options are included. When you speak to different dealers the price and bonuses change..

I got the top end mats and a hard wearing plastic boot protector thrown in. My buddy who also purchased the sve the same day only got the mid range grey mats. I did ask for the boot protector as I have a big dog, so you only get what you ask for I suppose.

BoatMad

simdan wrote: »

Why do people buy svs with the cold pack? I don't understand if you're doing finance why not go for the SVE? Alloys that actually suit the car, proper stereo, all around cameras, cold pack, metallic and leather. These are key factors for me. No brainer for the difference.

P.S. the Nissan website is poor, is not easily understood which options are included. When you speak to different dealers the price and bonuses change..

I got the top end mats and a hard wearing plastic boot protector thrown in. My buddy who also purchased the sve the same day only got the mid range grey mats. I did ask for the boot protector as I have a big dog, so you only get what you ask for I suppose.

The cold pack is very good value at 300 euros the adder to the SVE is nearly 3 k.

Freebies are always upto you , I always get top of the line mats thrown in for free ( play that card at the end )

The options on the leaf are remarkably simple

SV has 30k battery , 6.6 k charger and cold pack options , what could be simpler

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

Relevant links to support claim , please

From my post last week of the slides Nissan has been circulating internally:





At the same time I posted:

· The 30kW battery will be available as an option on SV and SVE only. The option cost is €3,000.

· The 30kW battery will carry an 8 year, 160,000km warranty. The 5 year warranty remains for the rest of the EV components.

· Production of the new battery starts in December and availability from then on looks good.

· The 30kWh battery will not be available for the eNV200 until mid- Summer 2016 at least.

BoatMad

So the benefits of the chemistry are most obvious when fast charging , but would still be there for slower rates too

The other rates just seem simple mathematical ratios.

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

So the benefits of the chemistry are most obvious when fast charging , but would still be there for slower rates too

It's an internal marketing slide for dealers so not exactly precise on the technical details.

You'd expect with the chemistry change and the increase in capacity per cell that balancing etc. take up less % of the time and you'd spend more time in the middle of the charging curve.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

It's an internal marketing slide for dealers so not exactly precise on the technical details.

You'd expect with the chemistry change and the increase in capacity per cell that balancing etc. take up less % of the time and you'd spend more time in the middle of the charging curve.

yes I agree, I suspect the advantages show up greatest , when fast charging as would be expected,

of course , given the truthfulness of car companies , it could be they just adjusted the software !!!;)

GreyDad

I would have expected some benefit for non-rapid charging as well, surprised they are saying it's the same

BoatMad

GreyDad wrote: »

I would have expected some benefit for non-rapid charging as well, surprised they are saying it's the same

I dont think its a scientific document !! ( its for salesmen )

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Relevant links to support claim , please

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

again I suspect the same benefit will accrue at the lower charge rates , just not as obvious. The nissan document is hardly that scientific

GreyDad

GreyDad wrote: »

I would have expected some benefit for non-rapid charging as well, surprised they are saying it's the same

No because it's a larger battery, so on average if you got 21 Kwh in the current leaf usable then that will take around 3.5 Hrs to 100% from 0% @6.6 Kw

With the 30 Kwh, probably 27 Kwh usable then this would be 4.5 Hrs.

The battery will pull more power from the charger for longer in a larger battery because batteries charge at a faster rate at a lower state of charge and the power decreases as the battery charges more and more. Another reason charging beyond 80% takes a long time because at 80% only 6-8 kw will be sent to the battery compared to 45 kw at a low charge %.

As Cross13 pointed out this is more marketing and not due to chemistry changes.

BoatMad

The battery will pull more power from the charger for longer in a larger battery because batteries charge at a faster rate at a lower state of charge and the power decreases as the battery charges more and more. Another reason charging beyond 80% takes a long time because at 80% only 6-8 kw will be sent to the battery compared to 45 kw at a low charge

for lead acid yes, Li tech can be charged at full rate right to knee point if you know what you are doing. There is no need to taper charge, but typically there is a small taper to prevent battery stress . LI has an enormous charge acceptance rate , well in excess of the charger

Theres nothing magic about the 80% level, in reality its around 90%

Another reason charging beyond 80% takes a long time because at 80% only 6-8 kw will be sent to the battery compared to 45 kw at a low charge

Im not sure your right here, I fast charged to 90% I didn't notice any significant change in rate of charge

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

again I suspect the same benefit will accrue at the lower charge rates , just not as obvious. The nissan document is hardly that scientific

No the same benefit isn't observed at 6 kw or 3 Kw.

It's only at the point in charging where the charge current is at the same level at a particular % that the difference is observed.

So at a high charge rate the power falls off quicker than at a low charge rate.

I'm finding this hard to explain.

If at 85% the the charge rate on the fast charger is 6 Kw then there's no difference between using the fast charger than the AC charge point with the 6.6 kw charger if this is making sense ?

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

for lead acid yes, Li tech can be charged at full rate right to knee point if you know what you are doing. There is no need to taper charge, but typically there is a small taper to prevent battery stress . LI has an enormous charge acceptance rate , well in excess of the charger

Theres nothing magic about the 80% level, in reality its around 90%



Im not sure your right here, I fast charged to 90% I didn't notice any significant change in rate of charge

Might not be significant , no but it's going to take longer than 70-80%

BoatMad

If at 85% the the charge rate on the fast charger is 6 Kw then there's no difference between using the fast charger than the AC charge point with the 6.6 kw charger if this is making sense ?

but lithium has a huge charge acceptance rates right up to ( and behind) the upper knee voltage point. Its not like lead acid at all

If the changes in chemistry have improved charge efficiency then that would be seen in all rates of charge

if the changes are merely a result of changing the Chademo control software in the leaf , then its just marketing rather then any battery advantages

the only way you can charge a 30 kWh battery as fast as a 24kwh, is (a ) increase the charging current , or (b ) improve the charging efficiency or ( c ) tweak the cutoff points to run the battery hard to closer to the knee.

if there is greater charging current, then thats fine, but its a function of the DC charge point and the leaf software that didn't utilise the current in the 24Kw battery

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Might not be significant , no but it's going to take longer than 70-80%

Why, whats the reason , I understand Li very well and I dont understand the reason this would occur.

to be more precise the typical Li charge cycle , is constant current followed by constant voltage charging , This is typically done to maximise battery life over charge time . IN that regard the increased charge time from about 85% onwards is a functioning of charging decisions , not battery chemistry ( unlike Lead acid )

Hence in a 30Kw battery, the decreased time to 80% can only be a function of (a ) increased charger current , or (b ) improved battery chemistry resulting in better charge efficiency

in (a ) no improvement would be seen ( in AC charging ) as , this is not a battery improvement , in (b ) improvements would be seen across all charge levels

The issue here is to separate the marketing hype from the tech

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Why, whats the reason , I understand Li very well and I dont understand the reason this would occur.

The battery demands less and less current as the voltage rises.

BoatMad wrote: »

to be more precise the typical Li charge cycle , is constant current followed by constant voltage charging , This is typically done to maximise battery life over charge time . IN that regard the increased charge time from about 85% onwards is a functioning of charging decisions , not battery chemistry ( unlike Lead acid )

It charges in a state of constant current until the voltage peaks then as current drops the kw drops.

BoatMad wrote: »

Hence in a 30Kw battery, the decreased time to 80% can only be a function of (a ) increased charger current , or (b ) improved battery chemistry resulting in better charge efficiency

A increased current, but increased current for longer given it's in a constant current stage for longer because it will take longer for the voltage to rise in a larger Ah cell .

BoatMad wrote: »

in (a ) no improvement would be seen ( in AC charging ) as , this is not a battery improvement , in (b ) improvements would be seen across all charge levels

The issue here is to separate the marketing hype from the tech[/QUOTE]

No improvement in AC charging because it will be in a constant Current stage for far longer because you start off with much less current to begin with.

Nothing like a good O'l graph.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

BoatMad

A increased current, but increased current for longer given it's in a constant current stage for longer because it will take longer for the voltage to rise in a larger Ah cell .

Yes, thats obvious , larger batteries take longer if the constant current phase is held at the same current

Again , if you have a larger battery and you want to retain the same 80% time, at fast charge currents ( aka circa 1-1.5 C) than you can (a) increase the charger current or (b) increase the battery charge efficiency

in fact in LI, there is a issue with fast charging beyond 80-85 as the saturation charge time increases with higher charge somewhat negating the benefit of the extra charging


so either Nissan have not been charging the 24Kw battery at full fast charge rates ( 44- 40 kw) and hence have simply reprogrammed the DC charger to deliver more current or they have genuinely improved the battery efficiency

My view is they have just reprogrammed the fast charger to deliver more current on the basis that testing shows the battery can handle it . They could probably have improved the 24 kw time too. I suspect a whif of marketing here !


in other words, they just have programmed the car to accept a bigger DC charge current, hence improving the charge time , but its not a battery improvement

BoatMad

to put it more simply , if nissan are ( for example ) changing the 24Kwh at 1C then ( for the sake of simplicity ) then if you put 1 Kw of energy back in it will take 1 hour ( assuming 100 % efficiency and linear charge cycles as in 20-80% charge )


if you increase the battery to 30 Kwh and you still charge at 1C then you need to put 30kw in for one hour to retain the same charging time.

nissan can only retain the same charging time by increasing the current the DC charger provides , which suggests that the 24Kwh battery isn't consuming all the rated output of the existing fast chargers

hence it isn't anything to do with the battery chemistry , just a Chademo software change , nissan havent done anything new at all

if they were consuming all the power the Dc charger has available, then they would not be able to retain the same charging time as the smaller battery

Ye cannae change laws of physics, Jim

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Again , if you have a larger battery and you want to retain the same 80% time, at fast charge currents ( aka circa 1-1.5 C) than you can (a) increase the charger current or (b) increase the battery charge efficiency

You can increase the current depending on whether the battery is rated it V how much heat it will generate.

BoatMad wrote: »

in fact in LI, there is a issue with fast charging beyond 80-85 as the saturation charge time increases with higher charge somewhat negating the benefit of the extra charging

You can't fast charge beyond 80% the battery simply won't request the current at that charge level.

This is the reason the Kia Soul EV charges in roughly the same time at 100 Kw (yes rated for 100 Kw)

Charging at 100 Kw will mean the constant current stage is faster but after this the current will ramp down very quickly because the battery reaches the peak voltage faster so the benefits of 100 Kw charging are not realised on a small battery.

BoatMad wrote: »

so either Nissan have not been charging the 24Kw battery at full fast charge rates ( 44- 40 kw) and hence have simply reprogrammed the DC charger to deliver more current or they have genuinely improved the battery efficiency

Nothing to do with the charger, My leaf charges at 45 Kw until it reaches this peak voltage then drops off gradually as the voltage levels off.

BoatMad wrote: »

My view is they have just reprogrammed the fast charger to deliver more current on the basis that testing shows the battery can handle it . They could probably have improved the 24 kw time too. I suspect a whif of marketing here !

They can't reprogram the charger if you mean the BMS then the BMS has little to do with charging and is really only a tool for monitoring voltages and balancing.

They can improve the 24 Kwh charge time slightly with higher current but it will only reach peak voltage faster before the current starts to drop off again so there isn't a big gain to be had from charging a 24 kwh battery with a 100 Kw charger.

BoatMad wrote: »

in other words, they just have programmed the car to accept a bigger DC charge current, hence improving the charge time , but its not a battery improvement

No it's neither at all.

The battery itself determines the current based on it's voltage it has nothing to do with the charger.

The larger battery means it pulls more current for longer because it takes longer to reach peak voltage where the current starts to taper down and as a result pulls more power from the charger until that peak voltage stage is reached.

With the graphs above you can clearly see this happening.

BoatMad

mad lad, are you an engineer with a background in electronics and charging batteries ?


You are taking lead acid concepts and applying them to Li

Li can be charged at 50C if you want , the battery will never in reality throttle itself , Li internal resistance is so low. ( see the RC guys ) it will continue accepting massive charge currents until it suffers dramatic thermal runaway ( see Boeing)

A charging strategy is set to maximise certain characteristics, in EVs case its usually cycle life and hence battery stress, then its capacity and then fast charging . in other Li applications its different

The Chademo interface would indeed limit current to whatever charge rate Nissan has decided is appropriate for the battery. That charge rate is obviously less then the max the cgademo charger can supply . They would not allow the charger to pump in any old current , the constant current charge rate would be communicated over the CAN interface to the Chademo charger

hence all they have done in the 30 kw battery is raised the DC max charge current in CC mode. hence the 30kw battery charges in the same time . they could not do this is the charger was already providing its max current , which is why you see no effect in smaller chargers. There is no improvement, per se in the battery


its totally different in lead acid , which reacts as you state. its internal resistance during charging rises and in effect " controls charge current "

note the Battery University graph shows a typical Li charge strategy. It does not show the underlying Li charge graph , There are several fast charge strategies proposed for Li ( including pulse for example )