Luas - Free Travel Pass users must tag on/off now

Jamie2k9

Noticed in the last week or two that FTP signs have gone stating holders must tag on/off.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Noticed in the last week or two that FTP signs have gone stating holders must tag on/off.

how would one do that with an ftp?

Gatling

end of the road wrote: »

how would one do that with an ftp?

Simple it's a smart ftp use it just like a leap card

Red Alert

About time too. The less non-tag-on users there are the fewer opportunities for people to explain away misuse and evasion.

Gatling

Red Alert wrote: »

About time too. The less non-tag-on users there are the fewer opportunities for people to explain away misuse and evasion.

Absolutely and the integrated digital photo will also help

Dravokivich

Hmmm.... Their taxsaver users are going to hate this.

Carawaystick

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Noticed in the last week or two that FTP signs have gone stating holders must tag on/off.

Are all free travel passes smartcards now?

beauf

Red Alert wrote: »

About time too. The less non-tag-on users there are the fewer opportunities for people to explain away misuse and evasion.

How will this help? All it seems to do is inconvenience people for no gain other than improving the accuracy of journey stats.

beauf

Carawaystick wrote: »

Are all free travel passes smartcards now?

I don't know about luas but I think train monthly ones are still paper.

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

How will this help? All it seems to do is inconvenience people for no gain other than improving the accuracy of journey stats.

And getting accurate statistics is important - it provides information about travel patterns and more importantly gives some idea of how many passengers are using the service - a rather important statistic for assessing what levels of subsidy is required and what level of support should be due from the DSP.

flyingsnail

Carawaystick wrote: »

Are all free travel passes smartcards now?

My grandfathers is definitely still paper

beauf

lxflyer wrote: »

And getting accurate statistics is important - it provides information about travel patterns and more importantly gives some idea of how many passengers are using the service - a rather important statistic for assessing what levels of subsidy is required and what level of support should be due from the DSP.

That wasn't the question asked. "misuse and evasion"

But going on the different subject you've raised.

If someone if entitled to a subsidy will Luas report which passengers are not being used, and will the DSP then remove the subsidy? How would that work then? What is this subsidy you're referring to anyway?

Also what would be the point of all that?

beauf

lxflyer wrote: »

And getting accurate statistics is important - it provides information about travel patterns and more importantly gives some idea of how many passengers are using the service - a rather important statistic for assessing what levels of subsidy is required and what level of support should be due from the DSP.

As regards statistics you'd have to consider which is more important, statistics or the congestion (resulting delays) caused by it. Can the statistics be captured or estimated in any other way? At peak all the services are filled to standing capacity, off peak they are not. I wonder how much help a finer granularity of statisics will be in helping with that.

Its a considerable inconvenience.

Gatling

Carawaystick wrote: »

Are all free travel passes smartcards now?

There been issued to replace the paper one its done by a appointment only system at the moment but I believe sometime around late 2016 they might phase out the old ,but I open to correction on that

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

That wasn't the question asked. "misuse and evasion"

But going on the different subject you've raised.

If someone if entitled to a subsidy will Luas report which passengers are not being used, and will the DSP then remove the subsidy? How would that work then? What is this subsidy you're referring to anyway?

Also what would be the point of all that?

It's not about individuals - it's about capturing overall numbers.

The transport companies receive two payments from government:
1) PSO grant
2) DSP Free Travel Scheme lump sum

Having accurate statistical information about overall numbers will form a major part of justifying the levels of those payments.

Right now the numbers of FTP users on LUAS is nothing more than an estimate.

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

As regards statistics you'd have to consider which is more important, statistics or the congestion (resulting delays) caused by it. Can the statistics be captured or estimated in any other way? At peak all the services are filled to standing capacity, off peak they are not. I wonder how much help a finer granularity of statisics will be in helping with that.

Its a considerable inconvenience.

Come off it - tagging on and off is not a "considerable inconvenience".

It's just a change - once people get used to it, it will become second nature.

Jamie2k9

Come off it - tagging on and off is not a "considerable inconvenience".

True but the new cards require the chip part to be scanned so it can be a little difficult for that and takes time for it to be read where as the Leap doesn't.

beauf

Depends on how often you do it. On a busy crowded station like Jervis. People crowd around the card readers waiting for their turn, blocking every one getting on/off. The cards don't work through wallets. You have to take them out and out them back in four times every journey. if you forget to do it, you get overcharged. Taking the card in/out increases the odds of misplacing, losing the card.

I can only assume, the reason for this is not to improve the customer experience. Its so that the Govt/DSP can cut their subsidy. Which suggests they will go to people with FTP and say you're not using, it enough, we're taking it back.

That will go down well before an election.

On the trains it says somewhere that even monthly, annual tickets need to tag off. But most don't. That was in my head when I read this.

Gatling

beauf wrote: »

The cards don't work through wallets. You have to take them out and out them back in four times every journey. if you forget to do it, you get overcharged. Taking the card in/out increases the odds of misplacing, losing the card.

They work just fine through wallets
.

Gatling

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

True but the new cards require the chip part to be scanned so it can be a little difficult for that and takes time for it to be read where as the Leap doesn't.

Mine always reads instantly on the luas ,DART,buses there's zero delay in the scanning process

beauf

Mine doesn't and its a canvas wallet, specifically so the card reads better. Its my 2nd card the 1st failed completely. Its kept seperate from other cards, phones etc. PITA to have to keep taking it out and back in.

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

Depends on how often you do it. On a busy crowded station like Jervis. People crowd around the card readers waiting for their turn, blocking every one getting on/off. The cards don't work through wallets. You have to take them out and out them back in four times every journey. if you forget to do it, you get overcharged. Taking the card in/out increases the odds of misplacing, losing the card.

I can only assume, the reason for this is not to improve the customer experience. Its so that the Govt/DSP can cut their subsidy. Which suggests they will go to people with FTP and say you're not using, it enough, we're taking it back.

That will go down well before an election.

On the trains it says somewhere that even monthly, annual tickets need to tag off. But most don't. That was in my head when I read this.

I think that you will find that it is the other way around - the companies are not being paid enough!

With respect - anyone with a LEAP card has to tag on and off - people cope with it. It's not a big ask.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

LeinsterDub

beauf wrote: »

As regards statistics you'd have to consider which is more important, statistics or the congestion (resulting delays) caused by it.

The luas has plenty of scanners and your generally wait a few minutes for a luas to come. Can't exactly envision massive queues

beauf wrote: »

Its a considerable inconvenience.

It's not really. It's a 3 second operation.

beauf

lxflyer wrote: »

I think that you will find that it is the other way around - the companies are not being paid enough!

With respect - anyone with a LEAP card has to tag on and off - people cope with it. It's not a big ask.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Ok, How will they enforce the tag on/off

LeinsterDub

beauf wrote: »

Ok, How will they enforce the tag on/off

Same as currently? Scan you're card. If you're not tagged on you don't have a valid ticket?

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

Come off it - tagging on and off is not a "considerable inconvenience".

It's just a change - once people get used to it, it will become second nature.

Without more validators, it can be rather awkward at peak times at some stops

Jamie2k9

L1011 wrote: »

Without more validators, it can be rather awkward at peak times at some stops

The fact the validators are located in the middle of the platform and not back at the railings drives me mad.

beauf

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Same as currently? Scan you're card. If you're not tagged on you don't have a valid ticket?

So if its exactly the same enforcement as before how will it reduce people traveling without a valid ticket.?

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

I think that you will find that it is the other way around - the companies are not being paid enough!

With respect - anyone with a LEAP card has to tag on and off - people cope with it. It's not a big ask.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Before getting all huffy about the awful imposition of tagging-on,it might be worth restating the context of the Dept of Social Protection Free Travel Scheme budget remaining capped at the 2010 level of €77,000,000.

As we progress into 2016,most observers can appreciate that that amount is being spread ever thinner to cover the ever increasing number of entitled cuatomers.

Put simply,the Various Transport Operators are now focusing on the ACTUAL amounts of DSP FT customers being carried rather than on the former guesstimates on which funding was allocated.

With the DSP FT Card issuing programme apparently now ahead of target,the original target withdrawal date of Q4 2016,for the Cardboard Pass withdrawal still seems likely to be met.

beauf

So its leverage for more money.

Gatling

I wonder if in the future will become a harder to get a ftp

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

So its leverage for more money.

It's to provide accurate statistics - the current numbers are pure guesswork.

beauf

When they do a ticket check that should capture the statistics of the tickets. Do that at intervals over the day and numbers on ftp should be obvious and how the ratio changes through the day. No it won't be 100% accurate but stats rarely are.

Even with the requirement to tag. A lot of people are not going to. So tagging will never be 100% either. It will depend on the level of enforcement you'd assume. I hardly ever see a ticket check on trains. On Luas I use less frequently but only seen 2-3 checks in a year.

But then they don't need 100% accuracy just better numbers for leverage.

LeinsterDub

beauf wrote: »

So if its exactly the same enforcement as before how will it reduce people traveling without a valid ticket.?

It will stop people printing there own for one. Also it will mean the enforcement team won't have to contact social welfare to see if the ticket is expired etc

devnull

beauf wrote: »

So if its exactly the same enforcement as before how will it reduce people traveling without a valid ticket.?

Because cards can be disabled.

Paper passes cannot.

On the bus and the train, it will be most effective.

beauf

TBH I wan't thinking of paper tickets at all. One of the most convenient things about having a monthly or annual ticket is not physically having to tag on/off, or checking if there's credit, or its taken the right fare etc. I'm speaking in general bus/train/luas, not the LUAS specifically. Obviously there's a variety of reasons for it. Bit off topic. I carry 4 different smart cards. It would be nice if some of them were a bit smarter. In theory you could load them on a smart phone, and it just tag you when you pass sensors, or pass a location. Like the eToll.

G_R

beauf wrote: »

TBH I wan't thinking of paper tickets at all. One of the most convenient things about having a monthly or annual ticket is not physically having to tag on/off, or checking if there's credit, or its taken the right fare etc. I'm speaking in general bus/train/luas, not the LUAS specifically. Obviously there's a variety of reasons for it. Bit off topic. I carry 4 different smart cards. It would be nice if some of them were a bit smarter. In theory you could load them on a smart phone, and it just tag you when you pass sensors, or pass a location. Like the eToll.

You're supposed to tag on and off with monthly and annual tickets too btw...

LXFlyer

G_R wrote: »

You're supposed to tag on and off with monthly and annual tickets too btw...

Which is precisely my point above.

You must tag on (tagging off is not as important with prepaid passes), as it then validates the ticket or uses the epurse on your LEAP card.

Failing to tag on means you do not have a valid ticket as you have to validate which mode you are using.

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

When they do a ticket check that should capture the statistics of the tickets. Do that at intervals over the day and numbers on ftp should be obvious and how the ratio changes through the day. No it won't be 100% accurate but stats rarely are.

Even with the requirement to tag. A lot of people are not going to. So tagging will never be 100% either. It will depend on the level of enforcement you'd assume. I hardly ever see a ticket check on trains. On Luas I use less frequently but only seen 2-3 checks in a year.

But then they don't need 100% accuracy just better numbers for leverage.

You've been rather lucky in terms of not being checked - there are RPU teams out across the buses, trains and LUAS.

The only way they will get anything approaching reliable statistics, and flag up "hot tickets" is by enforcing a tag on policy. Spot checks will not give reliable data by any stretch of the imagination.

Qualitymark

end of the road wrote: »

how would one do that with an ftp?

It's easy enough to place your card against the reader for around a second until the reader beeps.

But it's odd that this should be seen as a statistical thing, because on buses you tag on, but not off. So there are statistics on how many people use the bus with the pass, but not how long their journeys are, or where to and from.

devnull

Qualitymark wrote: »

It's easy enough to place your card against the reader for around a second until the reader beeps.

But it's odd that this should be seen as a statistical thing, because on buses you tag on, but not off. So there are statistics on how many people use the bus with the pass, but not how long their journeys are, or where to and from.

That's more to do with the limitations of some of the current technology on the bus, rather than an actual choice.

Qualitymark

devnull wrote: »

That's more to do with the limitations of some of the current technology on the bus, rather than an actual choice.

Ah, 'tis I remember the days back in 1995 when they were testing the planned system, the Dash card…

beauf

lxflyer wrote: »

You've been rather lucky in terms of not being checked - there are RPU teams out across the buses, trains and LUAS.

The only way they will get anything approaching reliable statistics, and flag up "hot tickets" is by enforcing a tag on policy. Spot checks will not give reliable data by any stretch of the imagination.

I didn't say I didn't tag. (otherwise how would I know it doesn't always work through a wallet, or why would the delay be annoying) I was making a general point about of ease of use. If I didn't, it wouldn't be luck either. I almost never see a ticket inspection either on the train/luas or in the stations I use daily. You see lots of people not tagging.

I wonder has there many cases of annual ticket holders being successfully fined (not appealed) for not tagging on.

micosoft

beauf wrote: »

Its a considerable inconvenience.

How on earth is tagging on and off a considerable inconvenience when paying passengers have to do it. The incredible sense of entitlement in this country is beyond belief at times....

Qualitymark

The incredible sense of indignancy in this site is incredible at times

beauf

Qualitymark wrote: »

...But it's odd that this should be seen as a statistical thing....

Everything about the data these days. Ease of use is not their primary aim.

beauf

micosoft wrote: »

How on earth is tagging on and off a considerable inconvenience when paying passengers have to do it. The incredible sense of entitlement in this country is beyond belief at times....

I was making the point as paying passenger. But its irrelevant to my query, which is why (in general) do you have tag in/out if you have a monthly/annual ticket. It wasn't about FTP at all.

How does asking a technical question, imply a sense of entitlement?

Valetta

I have an annual Luas/Dublin Bus tax saver and never tag on/off on the Luas.
I have been checked several times and nothing was said by the inspectors.

I was under the impression that you only needed to tag on once to validate the ticket.

beauf

Anywhere I've seen it stated it never explicitly states that annual and similar are excluded from the tag on/off. A lot don't seem to do it. On trains you often have to tag to access through a barrier. But that's not always the case.

Gatling wrote: »

Mine always reads instantly on the luas ,DART,buses there's zero delay in the scanning process

Maybe I should look at RFID blocking wallets to seperate my cards so the leap one reads better, if kept on the outside of the RFID barrier and away from the other cards.

http://londonist.com/2014/07/avoid-card-clash-with-the-rfid-card-guard

LXFlyer

Valetta wrote: »

I have an annual Luas/Dublin Bus tax saver and never tag on/off on the Luas.
I have been checked several times and nothing was said by the inspectors.

I was under the impression that you only needed to tag on once to validate the ticket.

You are supposed to tag on and off every time you use the LUAS.

I wouldn't be particularly worried about tagging off, but you should certainly tag on as that validates the ticket each time you use it.

Here is the leaflet that explains all:
https://www.leapcard.ie/en/_uploads/TaxSaver%20Leap%20Card%20Information.pdf

Qualitymark

Valetta wrote: »

I have an annual Luas/Dublin Bus tax saver and never tag on/off on the Luas.
I have been checked several times and nothing was said by the inspectors.

I was under the impression that you only needed to tag on once to validate the ticket.

Apparently not

https://www.luas.ie/assets/files/RPA%20Marketing%20Campaign/LeapcardFAQ.pdf

According to this ^^ you're supposed to tag on and off each time.

Further:

https://m.luas.ie/news/news-item.html?newsid=2396

And with the Public Service Card (the travel pass):

https://www.luas.ie/tonoff-pscft-oct2015/