Rent Missing for Landlord account

ConfusedNow13 · 07-10-2015 4:08pm #1

Hi

I have paid by direct debit rent to landlords account. Landlord is now claiming that 6500 euro has not been paid. I am not handing over my bank statements to my landlord as was asked.
But landlord claims that some payments not all payments were received. And that this is just being noticed now sense april.

I am very suspicious of this. I have phoned my bank and have a meeting with the Accounts Manager tomorrow to take a look at this but I have no rent book and the landlord has never (even after being asked) provided receipts. I have emailed threshold and not heard back (in fairness only about 10a this morning)

Was wondering if there was any advise thoughts anyone has?
I am not looking to cause trouble if the money didn't make it to the landlord I need to track it down but am I required to hand over my bank account to my landlord? As proof? I am current with rent this is a back rent issue. As stated from april for several month that is just now being "caught"
Thank you

pillphil · 07-10-2015 4:13pm

Did you lodge the money directly into the LL's account or transfer it from your account?

awec · 07-10-2015 4:17pm

Why not just show him the bank statements?

You could clear the entire thing up in 10 minutes rather than messing about with bank account managers and threshold.

Show him the statements and redact every line other than your rent going out.

You are paying by direct debit which leaves a comprehensive paper trail, it is unlikely your landlord is trying to swindle you here.

Grolschevik · 07-10-2015 4:17pm

What's the problem? Print out your bank statements and cross out everything but the evidence of rent payment with a big black marker. Assuming your statements show a transfer and not just a withdrawal.

07-10-2015 4:18pm

I had an issue with my first rent payment to my current landlord but I spotted it before it went out of hand. It turned out that the letting agent had put the wrong bank account details on the standing order form that they gave me. You might want to double-check that the same thing didn't happen to you. If it did, you're relying on the good will of the other person to give you the money back!

ConfusedNow13 · 07-10-2015 4:31pm

I have sent the bank statements redacted as suggested as I thought that would sort it out asap. However that wasn't good enough LL want the "unaltered" statement.

I am not trying to mess about I just don't understand why this was supposedly an issue sense April and this no a huge issue.

ConfusedNow13 · 07-10-2015 4:32pm

I transfered it is there a difference in that and lodging it?

TheChizler · 07-10-2015 4:33pm

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

I have sent the bank statements redacted as suggested as I thought that would sort it out asap. However that wasn't good enough LL want the "unaltered" statement.

They should take a hike! Why is the onus on you to prove you sent the money? Maybe you should ask for the landlord's statements?

Grolschevik · 07-10-2015 4:35pm

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

I transfered it is there a difference in that and lodging it?

No, I meant that that didn't just show a cash withrawal of the relevant amount with no indication where it ended up.

ConfusedNow13 · 07-10-2015 4:37pm

oh it show the last few digits of the LL account and their name. But apparently it is not acceptable to the LL
I want to handle it rationally and as I said if the money has gone missing or to wrong place i need to locate it but I can't afford to double pay

07-10-2015 4:43pm

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

I have sent the bank statements redacted as suggested as I thought that would sort it out asap. However that wasn't good enough LL want the "unaltered" statement.

Tell him to feck off, what goes on in your bank account is none of his concern. Generally I'd be inclined to refuse to show even a redacted statement but in this instance I would to clear it up. If he wanted the full statement he would be told where to go.

Paulw · 07-10-2015 4:44pm

Go in to your local bank branch.

Ask them for a printout of all transactions to the landlord account, and a full printout.

They can print the transaction in full, showing the account the money is coming from, the account it is going to, with the date and amount, and they will stamp it as a bank certified document.

If that isn't good enough for him, then there is nothing more you can do, and you should tell him to take it up with his bank, since you sent the money.

OldMrBrennan83 · 07-10-2015 4:47pm

This post has been deleted.

runawaybishop · 07-10-2015 4:53pm

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

I have sent the bank statements redacted as suggested as I thought that would sort it out asap. However that wasn't good enough LL want the "unaltered" statement.

I am not trying to mess about I just don't understand why this was supposedly an issue sense April and this no a huge issue.

LL has no entitlement to an unaltered statement, or any statement for that matter. Confirm with your bank what account the payments went into, then confirm that is the account you were told to make the lodgements into. Provide answer to LL, then its up to him to chase with his bank.

07-10-2015 4:54pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

LL has no entitlement to an unaltered statement, or any statement for that matter. Confirm with your bank what account the payments went into, then confirm that is the account you were told to make the lodgements into. Provide answer to LL, then its up to him to chase with his bank.

You would imagine that if some of the payments are being received that OP has the correct details.

runawaybishop · 07-10-2015 4:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You would imagine that if some of the payments are being received that OP has the correct details.

Yes good point, assuming the OP uses a saved transaction and isnt entering it manually every time.

davo10 · 07-10-2015 5:03pm

Op are you paying by standing order each month or are you manually transferring it by electronic transfer?

To be fair, the LL could show his statements showing that it was not received. If he has requested an unredacted statement, he may be looking to see if the transfer bounced back into your account if the recipients details were incorrect. As all payments are above board (not cash) it seems unrealistic that the LL would be chancing his arm, there may be a simple explanation for this and don't discount a mistake on the bank's part.

ConfusedNow13 · 07-10-2015 5:03pm

I do save the information but also make sure to check it everytime. I am just so confused and really afraid. I don't want to lose my home over this but I paid in good faith.

davo10 · 07-10-2015 5:07pm

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

I do save the information but also make sure to check it everytime. I am just so confused and really afraid. I don't want to lose my home over this but I paid in good faith.

So you manually transfer the money each month?

ConfusedNow13 · 07-10-2015 5:07pm

I do direct debits not a standing order as I want the rent paid before the 1st of the month. Does this make a difference in how it foes to the LL account?
Also is it really possible the bank made an error this large?

ConfusedNow13 · 07-10-2015 5:09pm

Yes manually

Barker152 · 07-10-2015 5:09pm

So you have shown statements to the landlord which show the correct amount being debited from your account and the landlords account as transferee for the dates in question?

If so, why is the landlord asking for the full statements? Has he/she given a reason for this? There is no chance the money 'bounced back' into your account?

davo10 · 07-10-2015 5:11pm

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

I do direct debits not a standing order as I want the rent paid before the 1st of the month. Does this make a difference in how it foes to the LL account?
Also is it really possible the bank made an error this large?

What you are being asked is, do you log into your back account each month and transfer the money by entering the LLs details into the relevant boxes and pressing send, or did you set up a standing order when you moved in to pay the rent on the same date every month therefore you never have to log in to your account to pay, it's goes out each month automatically?

davo10 · 07-10-2015 5:15pm

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

Yes manually

I'm afraid if you have to manually type in all the details each month, the margin for error has increased over a standing order which automatically goes out the the same account each month, one wrong digit or letter means the funds will not transfer. If the LL can show on his statements that you did not transfer the funds, you have a real issue.

07-10-2015 5:20pm

davo10 wrote: »

I'm afraid if you have to manually type in all the details each month, the margin for error has increased over a standing order which automatically goes out the the same account each month, one wrong digit or letter means the funds will not transfer. If the LL can show on his statements that you did not transfer the funds, you have a real issue.

But the Bank will be able to clarify this for him.

Greyian · 07-10-2015 5:22pm

davo10 wrote: »

I'm afraid if you have to manually type in all the details each month, the margin for error has increased over a standing order which automatically goes out the the same account each month, one wrong digit or letter means the funds will not transfer. If the LL can show on his statements that you did not transfer the funds, you have a real issue.

Any online banking system I've used allows you to save account details, so it's not like the OP has to put in the details manually each time. He/She would just have to select the landlord's account, so unless they've actually chosen the wrong account (e.g. sending it to a friend, relative etc), there's no increased margin of error (in terms of the recipient details, you could enter the amounts incorrectly). Based on the fact that the OP has said the statement shows the last few digits and the name of the landlord, it seems highly unlikely that he/she has chosen the wrong saved account details.

endacl · 07-10-2015 5:24pm

Somethings not right...

awec · 07-10-2015 5:26pm

Is your landlord saying he has never received rent from you or that you have just missed a few months?

Log in to your online banking and look at the saved details of his bank account. Verify that against whatever you were given, and if that is correct then contact your landlord and ask him to confirm those are his details.

Sleeper12 · 07-10-2015 5:30pm

Paulw wrote:

They can print the transaction in full, showing the account the money is coming from, the account it is going to, with the date and amount, and they will stamp it as a bank certified document.

It's up to you to prove that you paid the money. Just show him your bank statement showing the rent going to his account. Job done.

davo10 · 07-10-2015 5:35pm

Greyian wrote: »

Any online banking system I've used allows you to save account details, so it's not like the OP has to put in the details manually each time. He/She would just have to select the landlord's account, so unless they've actually chosen the wrong account (e.g. sending it to a friend, relative etc), there's no increased margin of error (in terms of the recipient details, you could enter the amounts incorrectly). Based on the fact that the OP has said the statement shows the last few digits and the name of the landlord, it seems highly unlikely that he/she has chosen the wrong saved account details.

Agreed, it should be easy from both sender and recipient to show money was sent/received by payment logs and statements but as another poster said, something isn't right here and I doubt a LL would be messing around like this unless the money genuinely did not reach his account, he would know it should be easy for op to prove it was paid so maybe it's a mistake by bank.

awec · 07-10-2015 5:39pm

It's unlikely to be a mistake by the bank, these things are not manual on their side I don't think.

Either the landlord has made a mistake looking at his accounts (unlikely for a figure of over 6k), or the OP has been sending payments to the wrong account.

Really the OP needs to ask the landlord for their IBAN and BIC and compare that to what she has saved in her online banking. If they aren't the same then the problem has been found and the OP is going to have to go on the merry dance of trying to get their money back.

Call me Al · 07-10-2015 5:48pm

Have you confirmed the bank details that you pay to with him and the amounts and dates you paid? Are you certain these are correct? Can you remember when and how he gave you the details?

I just want to clarify what you mean when you say you pay by direct debit. A direct debit means that the money is taken out from your account by him or his agent, and you don't have to do anything, other than allow the bank to process the transaction, and the onus is on him to make sure all of the details are correct. But a standing order or electronic funds transfer is completed by you to him, and he should be giving you the correct bank details to pay to.
Have the funds been returned to you at a later stage during the month maybe?
If the bank details are correct and the funds are not returned then he needs to redo his bank reconciliation I think.

awec · 07-10-2015 5:50pm

Nobody pays rent by direct debit.

It's either a standing order or a bank transfer. What the OP has described in the thread is a bank transfer.

"Direct debit" just seems to be the word people use for any sort of electronic payment over cash in hand.

Call me Al · 07-10-2015 5:51pm

awec wrote: »

It's unlikely to be a mistake by the bank, these things are not manual on their side I don't think.

Either the landlord has made a mistake looking at his accounts (unlikely for a figure of over 6k), or the OP has been sending payments to the wrong account.

Really the OP needs to ask the landlord for their IBAN and BIC and compare that to what she has saved in her online banking. If they aren't the same then the problem has been found and the OP is going to have to go on the merry dance of trying to get their money back.

She needs to check what bank details the landlord gave her first I think. It may also be a case that what she was given and what is correct are not the same thing.

awec · 07-10-2015 5:54pm

Call me Al wrote: »

She needs to check what bank details the landlord gave her first I think. It may also be a case that what she was given and what is correct are not the same thing.

Compare all three at once.

She needs to make sure the landlord gives her the details as he reads it off his online banking, and not off some bit of paper that he's written down ages ago in case he has written it down wrong.

Either way though if the OP has been sending to the wrong account it's going to be up to them to try get their money back from whomever they have sent it to. I am pretty sure banks have a mechanism for this but I would guess it can get messy if the unintended recipient has already spent it.

TheChizler · 07-10-2015 5:55pm

I don't know of any bank that insist that standing orders go out on the 1st of each month, you can normally select what date you want it to be processed on.

Call me Al · 07-10-2015 5:57pm

I was just thinking it's impossible to input an incorrect iban and bic. But it is possible to input incorrect bank acct and bic.

Op, did you use an iban (one of those really long bank account numbers)?

Metroboulot · 07-10-2015 6:27pm

OP, you are going to confuse the bank and the landlord by using the wrong terminology.

You're paying by "electronic transfer" not by "direct debit"

Direct Debit specifically refers to where you sign up with a company and they have permission to take varying amounts automatically from your current account e.g. for an electricity bill, phone bill etc.

If you go into your local branch and explain that you have made a series of online electronic payments that have not been received at the other end, they will help you out.

You should be able to get a list of the transactions, who they were to, how much they were for and a transaction reference number for all of them. There's absolutely no ambiguity about this whatsoever.

You do not need to provide anyone with a statement of your bank account, rather you just need to get the bank to print that on some kind of official paper. In fact, to trace the transaction you will need more than a statement reference anyway. There are transaction numbers that go with each SEPA payment.

Just looked at AIB there:

You'll get:

Sender Details:
Your name
Your BIC
Your IBAN
Statement Message

Receiver Details:
Name
BIC
IBAN
Statement Message
Bank Name
Bank Address
Receiver's Bank Country
Additional Information

Payment details:
Amount
Currency
Payment fee
Reference number (Transaction ID)
Date
Status (e.g. completed)

It's an odd one as you'll have to prove you paid it, but if he hasn't received it and his details are correct, it's really not your problem.

If you've paid into someone else's account instead, then you're going to have a major issue retrieving the money as the banks cannot just reverse transactions and will have to contact the receiver.

If you're using IBAN numbers, there are check digits which make entering an incorrect number much more unlikely, but if you set it up using a sort code and account number i.e. like 9X-XX-XX 12345678, then you could have miskeyed it and sent it somewhere else.

First port of call is your bank branch, directly (preferably in person), not the telephone banking number.

Also, most online banking systems allow you to go in and query a specific type of transaction.
AIB for example, will let you pull up payment history for electronic payments made with online banking and just print it off.

ConfusedNow13 · 07-10-2015 6:37pm

I was confusing the two I'm making a transfer with saved details the BIC and IBAN numbers that the LL states has received payments from. Even Octobers rent. I am confused because LL is claiming that 6 months plus a few hundred extra has not been paid. And that it was just noticed now. I have supplied the log of payments from my on line acess and the LL is stating they want my whole bank statement. They will not provide the exact payments that are missing or account for the few hundred extra. If the money is lost cyber wise I will have to deal with it but I'm not sure what else to do. Will threshold be of any help? Do they usually email back in a day or so?

awec · 07-10-2015 6:40pm

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

I was confusing the two I'm making a transfer with saved details the BIC and IBAN numbers that the LL states has received payments from. Even Octobers rent. I am confused because LL is claiming that 6 months plus a few hundred extra has not been paid. And that it was just noticed now. I have supplied the log of payments from my on line acess and the LL is stating they want my whole bank statement. They will not provide the exact payments that are missing or account for the few hundred extra. If the money is lost cyber wise I will have to deal with it but I'm not sure what else to do. Will threshold be of any help? Do they usually email back in a day or so?

Threshold will be no help. This is a banking issue really.

Just to be sure, you are saying the landlord says he is only missing SOME rent from you, not all the rent since you moved in?

And you have paid the rent in the exact same way every month? And you can verify that none of your payments failed?

Metroboulot · 07-10-2015 6:43pm

You've no obligation whatsoever to provide your full bank statement. They're nether a legal certificate nor are they intended as a receipt for a transaction.

The bank can provide proof of payment if it's needed without your statement. There's a lot of information on that you may / may not wish to share that has nothing whatever to do with the transaction.

All you have to do is provide reasonable proof that the transactions occurred, and were sent to the correct account.

Demanding bank statements is actually a big data protection issue.

It's quite likely there's some kind of a screw up here either at your side or the landlord's not seeing the transactions for some reason.

If that's the case, you just need to resolved it. It sounds like the landlord thinks you're providing fake printed information to fob him off or something.

Step 1:
Verify that you have definitely sent the transaction to the account (as provided by the landlord). If you have an original email or document with the account number on it, this would be very useful as it's possible he gave you the wrong details, in which case, it may be his problem too.

Step 2: If the details are all correct contact your bank and explain what's going on. They may need to provide you with a print out or even raise it with his bank and find out what's going on.

Step 3: If you have sent the transactions to a wrong account, it's urgent you try to get the bank to work on retrieving the money. If it was an invalid account, it would typically come back automatically, but if you sent it to a valid account it'd quite likely still be there.

Step 4: if your transaction has been sent correctly, and your landlord is still disputing this, contact Threshold and bring all the evidence with you.

Metroboulot · 07-10-2015 6:54pm

One quick follow up question:

Has he received any transactions from you in the past? Or, is he claiming he never had any rent from you from day one?

If you've set him up as a payee and have made payments successfully in the past, then there's something very odd going on either at his end, or with the bank.

davo10 · 07-10-2015 6:57pm

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

I was confusing the two I'm making a transfer with saved details the BIC and IBAN numbers that the LL states has received payments from. Even Octobers rent. I am confused because LL is claiming that 6 months plus a few hundred extra has not been paid. And that it was just noticed now. I have supplied the log of payments from my on line acess and the LL is stating they want my whole bank statement. They will not provide the exact payments that are missing or account for the few hundred extra. If the money is lost cyber wise I will have to deal with it but I'm not sure what else to do. Will threshold be of any help? Do they usually email back in a day or so?

Op I think you are confused because you do not seem to understand what is going on. This should be simple for both you and the landlord to clarify what has been done. For your part, firstly confirm that the money has actually left your account, go back over your statements and make sure your account has been debited by the correct amount each month. Next ask the LL to confirm his BIC and IBAN, see if this corresponds to the details you have entered. If he hasn't received the money, ask him to confirm which months are missing and check these against your bank statement. This isn't a case for Threshold, this is a case of you making sure the correct amount left your account on the correct dates and went to the correct recipient.

Eugene Norman · 07-10-2015 6:57pm

Metroboulot wrote: »

One quick follow up question:

Has he received any transactions from you in the past? Or, is he claiming he never had any rent from you from day one?

If you've set him up as a payee and have made payments successfully in the past, then there's something very odd going on either at his end, or with the bank.

He's claiming that some but not all payments are missing. Which is very odd.

davo10 · 07-10-2015 6:59pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

He's claiming that some but not all payments are missing. Which is very odd.

Decimal point in wrong place? It would explain the odd amount which does not correspond with rental amount owed for 6 months.

Metroboulot · 07-10-2015 7:00pm

The only thing that could be going wrong on your end is that with *some* (not all) banks if you process an online payment and you've insufficient funds, it will seem like it's gone through but, then won't actually come out of your account.

This happens with a certain major bank if you try to put through a transaction outside the cut off time which I think is 3pm weekdays.

Effectively, the transaction's held by the system and processed the following day and if there's insufficient funds it just declines.

AFAIK, AIB and most of the others will deduct funds live so that shouldn't be possible.

It would show up as a failed transaction on your statement though and it'd be pretty obvious.

Eugene Norman · 07-10-2015 7:01pm

davo10 wrote: »

Decimal point in wrong place? It would explain the odd amount which does not correspond with rental amount owed for 6 months.

Actually he says he does it manually which does increase the margin of error. So it could be that.

Metroboulot · 07-10-2015 7:02pm

So, you're keying their account details manually every time you do the transaction?

wobbles · 07-10-2015 7:05pm

Definately dont give him a full statement. Whatever about him wanting to check that payments have gone out, He will see what payments are coming in. Once he sees what you earn, your rent may go up if he knows you can afford it.

Meet with the bank, confirm if payments were sent to the correct account and each month. If its all above board then tell him to follow up his side, nothing more you can do

awec · 07-10-2015 7:06pm

No the OP says they are using the saved details.

OP if he has received some money from you then you are going to have to go through your statements and look at the dates you made payment and check your balance to make sure there was sufficient funds. Easiest is to go to bank and get them to confirm if the payments were all successfully taken.

These payments don't just go missing, the system is robust. Either you haven't actually made payments or the landlord has made a mistake reading his account.

GerardKeating · 07-10-2015 7:10pm

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

I transfered it is there a difference in that and lodging it?

Could your landlord have changed bank and forgot to tell you?

You might mention which bank you use. The aib web site allows one to print the exact details of each and every transaction.

Rent Missing for Landlord account

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