Renua

micosoft

Flat tax and simplification of the Tax code! So far so Tea Party.

As someone who would personally benefit hugely from this change I have to say I'm not all that exercised about it. I doubt Renua will get a lot of voters from it given I'm used to living in a High Tax Low Services country. That said it might be beside the point as their explanation of how it would work in reality is as vague as Sinn Feins economic policy.

The party has said this new system would still account for 80 per cent of current tax and has asserted that higher compliance, less use of tax reduction measures and other multiplier effects would make good on the deficit.
Similar flat tax regimes are already in place in Jersey, Guernsey, Hungary, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.

When this is what passes for innovative policy I'd have to say I'll pass on it. If they were at least honest and explained the huge cuts in social welfare and other areas to fit the very real tax cuts I'd appreciate it. Or perhaps they will do a FF and borrow it all....

blackwhite

I must say I love their reasoning for avoiding having it costed by the Dept of Finance.

http://www.thejournal.ie/renua-flat-tax-2368262-Oct2015/ wrote:

The party said that the proposal had not been costed by Department of Finance with Creighton describing many of their analyses as “inaccurate”.

Nothing at all to do with the strong possibility that the Dept of Finance might highlight the gaping holes in their reasoning, or lack of concrete figures that lead them to the 75-80% of current tax take

Manach

Given that any form of savings that would come from a simplification both of the byzantine tax & state bureaucracy would impact the civil service,then perhaps asking stakeholders that make up the Dept. of finance, which has an inbuilt inimical world view to such, to calculate the plan's effectiveness might be a tad ... fraught.

Gringo180

So basically somebody that earns around 200k a year would pay the same rate of tax as somebody on minimum wage? What planet is Creighton living on?

n97 mini

blackwhite wrote: »

I must say I love their reasoning for avoiding having it costed by the Dept of Finance.



Nothing at all to do with the strong possibility that the Dept of Finance might highlight the gaping holes in their reasoning, or lack of concrete figures that lead them to the 75-80% of current tax take

Despite having all the data, the DoF never gets a tax take forecast right, so I wouldn't necessarily believe any "holes" they might find in Renua's figures.

Manach wrote: »

Given that any form of savings that would come from a simplification both of the byzantine tax & state bureaucracy would impact the civil service,then perhaps asking stakeholders that make up the Dept. of finance, which has an inbuilt inimical world view to such, to calculate the plan's effectiveness might be a tad ... fraught.

Very well said.

aaakev

Gringo180 wrote: »

So basically somebody that earns around 200k a year would pay the same rate of tax as somebody on minimum wage? What planet is Creighton living on?

I like the idea, if i earn 10 times more than the next man i pay 10 times more tax than him. Explain how thats not a good system in theory?

Gringo180

aaakev wrote: »

I like the idea, if i earn 10 times more than the next man i pay 10 times more tax than him. Explain how thats not a good system in theory?

Because the person on minimum wage kind of needs every cent to just survive. How is it fair that somebody gets taxed 65 euro out of a measly 328 euro a week on minimum wage when somebody on 1k a week gets taxed 200?

It only benefits the rich in society.

BoJack Horseman

aaakev wrote: »

Explain?

The progressive nature of increasing rates with increasing income has worked well so far.

Lucinda explained it all on Radio 1.

- Eliminate USC
- 42% reduction in PAYE on earnings above €34k.
........ Very very costly.

But this will be compensated by self employed splurging their savings.... apparently.

Yes, this massive margin of tax take difference will be compensated by the random, unverified, non-causal assumption that small businesses get all spend happy for whatever reason.

Weak sauce...

Lockstep

Creighton is being very frank in how this affects the worst off.

She's admitted that low-wage workers will actually be worse off under her tax plan. Her solution: they should work more hours.

There's certainly a case to be argued for simplifying our tax system but Renua's approach is laughable.

gandalf

As someone who flirted with joining them I find these latest proclamations are very mixed.

The 23% flat tax rate is step too far and it does proportionally take more from the lower earners. A tweaked tiered system like we have now is better with a lower tax free threshold to bring more people into the taxation system (which is needed).

I agree with them totally on the motor tax situation. If you drive more you pay more. If you buy a bigger more fuel hungry car you pay more. It makes total sense to me. But this only works if they can fire the majority of staff that are currently involved in anarchic motor tax collection system in place. If it's going to be the usual fudge where something gets streamline yet the public servants effected are still in jobs then there is no point.

The TV license abolition is also a good idea. I for one resent paying a fee to have crap soap operas made in English and Irish and a smattering of current affairs programmes with overpaid prima donna's.

aaakev

Gringo180 wrote: »

Because the person on minimum wage kind of needs every cent to just survive. How is it fair that somebody gets taxed 65 euro out of a measly 328 euro a week on minimum wage when somebody on 1k a week gets taxed 200?

It only benefits the rich in society.

Anyone i know on minimum wage would love to be able to make more money, a tax system like this will allow it if they work more...

Someone earning 40 or 50k before tax is hardly rich but this will hugely benefit them. Im not rich and it would benefit me

In theory i think its a good idea

micosoft

aaakev wrote: »

I like the idea, if i earn 10 times more than the next man i pay 10 times more tax than him. Explain how thats not a good system in theory?

Marginal Utility.

micosoft

Manach wrote: »

Given that any form of savings that would come from a simplification both of the byzantine tax & state bureaucracy would impact the civil service,then perhaps asking stakeholders that make up the Dept. of finance, which has an inbuilt inimical world view to such, to calculate the plan's effectiveness might be a tad ... fraught.

PAYE system is extremely straight forward. It's not like the states where everyone makes a return. I suspect any cost savings will be minimal and certainly not in the quantum Renua need. They seem to think that it will then be made up from increased growth which is dubious.

Skrynesaver

A couple of points,
The cutoff point for gaining on the flat 23% proposal is around €50K.https://twitter.com/Cormac_Staunton/status/651366131450683392


As a general rule people on minimum wage zero hour contracts don't get to set their hours

There's some merit to the fuel levy over motor tax on a polluter pays principle

RTE's use of the license fee may be questionable where the "stars" are concerned and their pro-government bias is appalling at times, but the need for a public interest broadcaster is a reality, for example Murdoch admitted that the reason Sky is moderately sane in the UK relative to Fox in the Us is the existence of the BBC, without which he'd get away with equally bogus drivel.

Godge

If they had kept the 40% rate for income over say €150k, this could actually have been a runner.

By getting rid of all of the tax reliefs those at the top would pay the same or slightly more but everyone between 40k and 150k would benefit, which are the people most likely to vote.

So long as you also protected the pensioners, it would work as a vote-gatherer.

Gringo180

aaakev wrote: »

Anyone i know on minimum wage would love to be able to make more money, a tax system like this will allow it if they work more...

Someone earning 40 or 50k before tax is hardly rich but this will hugely benefit them. Im not rich and it would benefit me

In theory i think its a good idea

Some companies wont give overtime to there staff. Maybe raise the minimum wage, especially in Dublin, so people can earn more money instead off working more hours.

jjmcclure

I have seen the flat tax system at work in another country, Estonia. everyone I have spoken to there is delighted with it.

I have gone from having no interest in Renua to having some interest now.

I'm tired of people at the upper end, in this country let’s call that 100k (according to SF etc that's "rich") being expected to pay for everyone else.

In Ireland 2015 those who have educated themselves, worked hard, been successful and earn a good salary are treated like criminals. I for one would support any party that proposes a flat rate of tax. Those who earn more pay more, those who earn less pay less.

We are expected to pay for a bloated and ineffective public service that is overstaffed, overpaid and over protected. (frontline services excluded).

STOP blaming the successful in society for your own situation. If you want to earn more, learn more and get a better job!!!
A flat rate tax is a fair tax!

End of rant!

Gringo180

jjmcclure wrote: »

I have seen the flat tax system at work in another country, Estonia. everyone I have spoken to there is delighted with it.

I have gone from having no interest in Renua to having some interest now.

I'm tired of people at the upper end, in this country let’s call that 100k (according to SF etc that's "rich") being expected to pay for everyone else.

In Ireland 2015 those who have educated themselves, worked hard, been successful and earn a good salary are treated like criminals. I for one would support any party that proposes a flat rate of tax. Those who earn more pay more, those who earn less pay less.

We are expected to pay for a bloated and ineffective public service that is overstaffed, overpaid and over protected. (frontline services excluded).

STOP blaming the successful in society for your own situation. If you want to earn more, learn more and get a better job!!!
A flat rate tax is a fair tax!

End of rant!

I wouldn't like to live in a society that has this attitude of just looking out for themselves.

genericguy

Gringo180 wrote: »

I wouldn't like to live in a society that has this attitude of just looking out for themselves.

It's soviet Russia you're looking for buddy, it's about 50 years East of here. Your comment reads as: I need others to be prepared to pay my way.

It's not so much that people are "out for themselves" as we are sick of giving away half our pay checks for people who don't bother - when is a political party going to canvass on behalf of the squeezed middle earners, rather than those on the dole. Income tax as it stands is literally discrimination against the hard-working.

Gringo180

genericguy wrote: »

It's soviet Russia you're looking for buddy, it's about 50 years East of here. Your comment reads as: I need others to be prepared to pay my way.

It's not so much that people are "out for themselves" as we are sick of giving away half our pay checks for people who don't bother - when is a political party going to canvass on behalf of the squeezed middle earners, rather than those on the dole. Income tax as it stands is literally discrimination against the hard-working.

I am happy living in Ireland, I have no issue with the current tax rates so maybe its the likes of yourself that should seek to move elsewhere, like Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania, or other utopian nations where there is a flat tax rate.

jjmcclure

Gringo180 wrote: »

I am happy living in Ireland, I have no issue with the current tax rates so maybe its the likes of yourself that should seek to move elsewhere, like Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania, or other utopian nations where there is a flat tax rate.

Actually Estonia is pretty good. When you see how they run their public service etc.... Ireland could learn a thing or two.

And by the way I more than pay my way in this society.

K-9

Mod:

Err. Could we stop the Soviet Russia and maybe go live in Estonia stuff. Keep it civil, thanks.

Eric Cartman

Gringo180 wrote: »

I wouldn't like to live in a society that has this attitude of just looking out for themselves.

and a lot of us don't like living in a society where we get almost nothing in return for 51% of our money getting taken by the government and 24% of that money taken is given to One of the highest per capita welfare spends in the entire world and what do we have to show for it , genuine families struggling to put food on the table while in or in-between jobs having their money stolen from them by false disability claims, career single mothers treating kids like ATM's , drug addicts, alcoholics and pretend 'minority' groups using a quasi ethnicity to shield them from prosecution for their lives of chosen criminality.

At what point can anyone honestly look at a society where somebody who makes 100k a year doesn't even get to keep 60k of it in his pocket , yet somebody can get a free house and spend 200 quid a week drinking and smoking themselves to death and all of it is legal, and call that fair. This is not a fair society.

daveytheravey

Personally I like her and I like her proposals!

Imo she has a bit of balls and this is what a lot of people are lacking in the country. We need to stop punishing the worker who puts in long hours, or the entrepreneur who risks it all to be successful?

We need to encourage those trying to create jobs. Also its harsh but real, if you work harder the earlier years in your life school/college you will lead a better life in the future.

We should be congratulating those who earn high wages and not crucifying them by taxing over 40%? What kind of thank you is that? Work harder, play harder.

It is more worthwhile for some people to sit at home twiddling their thumbs getting the weekly dole than going out working hard long hours? What kind of system. Start rewarding those who work hard and aim to achieve more in their life. Start cutting the generous social welfare and lets see how people react. We are amongst the most generous social welfare givers in the European Union. This needs to stop. We are being taken advantage of left right and centre.

Gringo180

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and a lot of us don't like living in a society where we get almost nothing in return for 51% of our money getting taken by the government and 24% of that money taken is given to One of the highest per capita welfare spends in the entire world and what do we have to show for it , genuine families struggling to put food on the table while in or in-between jobs having their money stolen from them by false disability claims, career single mothers treating kids like ATM's , drug addicts, alcoholics and pretend 'minority' groups using a quasi ethnicity to shield them from prosecution for their lives of chosen criminality.

At what point can anyone honestly look at a society where somebody who makes 100k a year doesn't even get to keep 60k of it in his pocket , yet somebody can get a free house and spend 200 quid a week drinking and smoking themselves to death and all of it is legal, and call that fair. This is not a fair society.

Nothing in return? Anybody earning anywhere near 100k a year has got more than enough in return. They have a great job that pays well and have been educated to get themselves there by the same infastructure that they now pay tax into. This tax system will only impoverish people on low incomes and create unemployment.

You are away with the fairies if you think the majority of welfare recipients spend 200 quid a week drinking and smoking there lives away. Quiet a generalisation if I say so myself.

Skylinehead

I like their motor tax ideas, pay at the pump. Other than that, go away.

Eric Cartman

Gringo180 wrote: »

Nothing in return? Anybody earning anywhere near 100k a year has got more than enough in return. They have a great job that pays well and have been educated to get themselves there by the same infastructure that they now pay tax into. This tax system will only impoverish people on low incomes and create unemployment.

You are away with the fairies if you think the majority of welfare recipients spend 200 quid a week drinking and smoking there lives away. Quiet a generalisation if I say so myself.

* almost nothing (you missed that part)
* I gave an example of what is legal to do, I also clearly stated that genuine families in need (which definitely exist) are also being hurt by these people) it is not the majority, but they're certainly the most visible and expensive sector and I wouldn't call them a minority group either, they make up a sizeable chunk of recipients.

"they have a great job that pays well" - because the government just went and handed them that and its completely luck of the draw :roll eyes: They earned that job, they earned that money , who are you to say they shouldn't be allowed to keep it.

"and have been educated to get themselves there by the same infastructure that they now pay tax into" everybody in Ireland has the same educational opportunities these days, some would even say a welfare recipient has more of an opportunity due to grants, back to education programs and other employment support centres.

Gringo180

daveytheravey wrote: »

Personally I like her and I like her proposals!

Imo she has a bit of balls and this is what a lot of people are lacking in the country. We need to stop punishing the worker who puts in long hours,

This system is punishing the worker. The minimum wage worker is taxed €447 per annum. If they paid a 20% tax rate they would be taxed €3,600 per annum a loss of over 3k. How is that fair?

jjmcclure

Gringo180 wrote: »

This system is punishing the worker. The minimum wage worker is taxed €447 per annum. If they paid a 20% tax rate they would be taxed €3,600 per annum a loss of over 3k. How is that fair?

Everyone should contribute. Is €447 a fair contribution. What if that worker has 4 kids and a partner on the dole. Is €447 a fair contribution when you consider child benefit, schools, the dole, medical card etc.

But I forgot, I should pay for all those things for the minimum wage worker. I shouldn't be aloud to keep my hard earned money to provide a solid start for my own kids, or to invest I'm my family's future or in the economy to create more jobs. I should pay because I have been successful and therefore should be punished.

Eric Cartman

jjmcclure wrote: »

Everyone should contribute. Is €447 a fair contribution. What if that worker has 4 kids and a partner on the dole. Is €447 a fair contribution when you consider child benefit, schools, the dole, medical card etc.

But I forgot, I should pay for all those things for the minimum wage worker. I shouldn't be aloud to keep my hard earned money to provide a solid start for my own kids, or to invest I'm my family's future or in the economy to create more jobs. I should pay because I have been successful and therefore should be punished.

this is basically how Ireland works.

Gringo180

So basically yous expect people worse off with no exposable income to pay the same rate of tax as somebody who would be on a 100k + salary a year, or even 200k+ salary a year?

Instead of looking at it from your point of view why dont you put yourselves in the minimum wage workers shoes and see how he is suppose to live off 265 euro a week after a 40 hour work week if this rate did come in. What money is left over after rent, esb, gas, waste, food, commuting to work etc.??

I personally just find that morally wrong and quite repulsive in fact.