Ryanair-Extortionate exchange rates ( Complaint to CCPC, ECC Ireland & Ryanair)

power101

Right, below is a complaint I've sent on Ryanair's overcharging;

Details of your complaint Many companies have started a practice of automatically changing a sterling price/payment on their website to Euro when a euro denominated credit /debit card is being used. Amazon is one example however they are based in the UK and I'm not sure if this agency can tackle them. The other major company that I have seen doing this is Ryanair. If you attempt to buy a single flight from the UK to anywhere else or even internal UK flights they change the currency as the payment stage from sterling to Euro.

In each case where I have bought flights recently they have done this and it works out an extra 5-10 euro more expensive compared to normal bank exchange rates that you would pay using your credit or debit card.

As an example:

I purchased UK flights with a sterling cost of £61.98. Ryanair attempted to automatically change this to a euro price of €89.53. I after several clicks and ignoring of warnings was able to pay the sterling price. This cost me €84.25 through my bank. Ryanair is taking €5.28(6.3%) extra and makes it extremely difficult to refuse their automatic exchange rate. Their exchange rate per the photo i took was 1.4444 to the pound compared to 1.3593 which my bank normally charged. I can only imagine this adds up to hundreds or thousands if not millions of extra charges for not only Irish but every other European.

Their warning when I went to not pay their exchange rate had the following lines
"...the rate from your bank is not guaranteed and is subject to daily fluctuations, which could result in a significantly higher cost to you"
"We recommend you do not untick the checkbox so that you receive our guaranteed exchange rate"

These statements are false and misleading and lead to unnecessary hidden costs for many of their customers.

Please let me know your thoughts on this,

Kind Regards,

Power101....

delahuntv

How about clicking "pay in sterling" - certainly Amazon had this option about 2 hours ago.

Would you not maybe ask ryanair first and also get your info correct instead of whining to some bureaucrat office?

power101

delahuntv wrote: »

How about clicking "pay in sterling" - certainly Amazon had this option about 2 hours ago.

Would you not maybe ask ryanair first and also get your info correct instead of whining to some bureaucrat office?

They do have this function. However it is not obvious and takes several clicks etc and cancellations of warnings to get there. I have complained to Ryanair. You might read the heading in future.

I thought the whole point of consumer issues was to discuss them. This is clearly an overcharging issue that people should know about when booking with Ryanair. I don't see anything wrong with my info. I've given a detailed explanation of the problem.

davo10

Did you really expect Ryanair to give you the same conversion rate as a bank?

ohnonotgmail

power101 wrote: »

They do have this function. However it is not obvious and takes several clicks etc and cancellations of warnings to get there. I have complained to Ryanair. You might read the heading in future.

I thought the whole point of consumer issues was to discuss them. This is clearly an overcharging issue that people should know about when booking with Ryanair. I don't see anything wrong with my info. I've given a detailed explanation of the problem.

how is it an overcharging issue? Either you agree to pay them the amount specified in euro at their rate (in which case how can it be overcharging if you agree to it?) or you change it to pay in sterling and take whatever rate you bank charge you. If it was the case they forced you to pay in euro at their rate then i would agree there is an issue but as they let you opt out i cant see what the problem is.

power101

davo10 wrote: »

Did you really expect Ryanair to give you the same conversion rate as a bank?

I didn't want them to give any conversion in fact. It's forced upon anyone that buys the flights like this. Then they make it out as if it could be more expensive in a bank when they are many times more expensive.

power101

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how is it an overcharging issue? Either you agree to pay them the amount specified in euro at their rate (in which case how can it be overcharging if you agree to it?) or you change it to pay in sterling and take whatever rate you bank charge you. If it was the case they forced you to pay in euro at their rate then i would agree there is an issue but as they let you opt out i cant see what the problem is.

The point is that their opt out warns people that it could be far more expensive to go through their bank. This is a lie.

ohnonotgmail

power101 wrote: »

I didn't want them to give any conversion in fact. It's forced upon anyone that buys the flights like this. Then they make it out as if it could be more expensive in a bank when they are many times more expensive.

if they let you pay in sterling how is it forced upon you?

ohnonotgmail

power101 wrote: »

The point is that their opt out warns people that it could be far more expensive to go through their bank. This is a lie.

could be or will be? If they say "could be" they are covered. after all your banks rate could be worse. it probably isnt but it could be.

power101

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if they let you pay in sterling how is it forced upon you?

They auto change the sterling to Euro, do not make it clear that they have done so and you have to go through several clicks and screens to undo this automatic change. A change that is only in favor of Ryanair.

power101

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

could be or will be? If they say "could be" they are covered. after all your banks rate could be worse. it probably isnt but it could be.

The statements are highly misleading as they do not mention them being possibly lower but instead say " possibly significantly higher". Then they recommend that you pay these extortionate exchange rates.

feargale

delahuntv wrote: »

How about clicking "pay in sterling" - certainly Amazon had this option about 2 hours ago.

Would you not maybe ask ryanair first and also get your info correct instead of whining to some bureaucrat office?

Why should OP have to go around the houses about this? It's not whining incidentally.
@ OP report false and misleading information to the appropriate agency. Are you in UK?

ohnonotgmail

power101 wrote: »

They auto change the sterling to Euro, do not make it clear that they have done so and you have to go through several clicks and screens to undo this automatic change. A change that is only in favor of Ryanair.

quite honestly if you havent noticed that the currency has changed, which would change the total, then you need to pay more attention.

feargale

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

could be or will be? If they say "could be" they are covered. after all your banks rate could be worse. it probably isnt but it could be.

It is a half truth.

ohnonotgmail

power101 wrote: »

The statements are highly misleading as they do not mention them being possibly lower but instead say " possibly significantly higher". Then they recommend that you pay these extortionate exchange rates.

well unless they use the exact same rate as your bank then of course they could be possibly lower or possibly higher.

dilallio

Thanks OP - I wasn't aware of this and will make sure I don't get caught.

power101

feargale wrote: »

Why should OP have to go around the houses about this? It's not whining incidentally.
@ OP report false and misleading information to the appropriate agency. Are you in UK?

No I'm in Ireland and I have reported it to relevant agencies.

power101

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

quite honestly if you havent noticed that the currency has changed, which would change the total, then you need to pay more attention.

Well I do notice these changes and that's why there's an explanation in the OP. Many others may or may not notice however and if they do they have Ryanair the now " friendly " airline telling them not to change back to sterling as it could cost them more.

power101

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well unless they use the exact same rate as your bank then of course they could be possibly lower or possibly higher.

But they don't say possibly higher or lower. They say possibly "Significantly higher"

ohnonotgmail

power101 wrote: »

But they don't say possibly higher or lower. They say possibly "Significantly higher"

can you quote the exact text of what they say? First it was "possibly significantly higher" now its just "significantly higher". quite a difference.

ohnonotgmail

power101 wrote: »

Well I do notice these changes and that's why there's an explanation in the OP. Many others may or may not notice however and if they do they have Ryanair the now " friendly " airline telling them not to change back to sterling as it could cost them more.

well the "you" i referred to obviously didn't include you as did notice.

power101

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

can you quote the exact text of what they say? First it was "possibly significantly higher" now its just "significantly higher". quite a difference.

I've said possibly significantly higher in both posts.

ohnonotgmail

power101 wrote: »

I've said possibly significantly higher in both posts.

I'm really not seeing the issue. if they say "possibly significant higher" then that implies it could also be lower.

power101

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I'm really not seeing the issue. if they say "possibly significant higher" then that implies it could also be lower.

Sure like anything we'll see if any of the agencies have any issues with it. We could argue about statements being misleading etc until the cows come home :pac::D

ohnonotgmail

for the avoidance of doubt here is the text of the warning ryanair display when you change from sterling to euro

If you do not wish to accept the exchange rate please untick the check box below. The rate on this currency transaction is guaranteed and will not vary.
If you untick the checkbox below, the rate you receive from your bank is not guaranteed, and is subject to daily fluctuations, which could result in a significantly higher cost to you.
Please go to our terms and conditions for details of our guaranteed exchange rate. We recommend you do not untick the checkbox so that you receive our guaranteed exchange rate

Nothing misleading in there. The process is quite simple. One click to bring that window. one to uncheck the box. One to close the window.

power101

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

for the avoidance of doubt here is the text of the warning ryanair display when you change from sterling to euro



Nothing misleading in there. The process is quite simple. One click to bring that window. one to uncheck the box. One to close the window.

Everything about the statement is misleading.

the rate you receive from your bank is not guaranteed, and is subject to daily fluctuations

Ryanair's rate is also subject to daily fluctuations. Why is that line even in the text.

which could result in a significantly higher cost to you.

Actually no it will always be lower if you go through your bank and don't take their outrageously expensive exchange rate. Misleading

We recommend you do not untick the checkbox so that you receive our guaranteed exchange rate

They recommend that the customer in effect pays a higher fare?!

feargale

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I'm really not seeing the issue. if they say "possibly significant higher" then that implies it could also be lower.

No, it doesn't.

ohnonotgmail

feargale wrote: »

No, it doesn't.

So if i say that it could possibly rain tomorrow that doesnt imply that it could possibly not rain? bizarre logic.

feargale

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So if i say that it could possibly rain tomorrow that doesnt imply that it could possibly not rain? bizarre logic.

Wrong. You are not comparing like with like. Possible rain tomorrow is an alternative to no rain tomorrow, and to that alone.
Possibly significantly higher can be paired as an alternative with 1.possibly (significantly) lower or 2. no change.
Furthermore, do you not understand that not all customers are as sharp as OP and many can be taken in by disingenuous advertising?

delahuntv

power101 wrote: »

You might read the heading in future.

.

How about giving them a chance to reply before whining to the world and its mother?

Graham

delahuntv wrote: »

How about giving them a chance to reply before whining to the world and its mother?

Does it only becomes a consumer issue after they reply?

I don't see a problem with the OP bringing this to the attention of consumers who otherwise may not be aware.

feargale

delahuntv wrote: »

How about giving them a chance to reply before whining to the world and its mother?

So, anybody who reports an experience in Consumer Issues is whining? That's the second time you've used that word here. I'm grateful to OP for alerting us to this practice. You on the other hand seem to think it should be kept secret. I wonder why.

feargale

feargale wrote: »

So, anybody who reports an experience in Consumer Issues is whining? That's the second time you've used that word here. I'm grateful to OP for alerting us to this practice. You on the other hand seem to think it should be kept secret. I wonder why.

P.S. They can reply here if they want.

power101

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So if i say that it could possibly rain tomorrow that doesnt imply that it could possibly not rain? bizarre logic.

The way they phrase, using your example it would be more like "... possibly torrential downpour tomorrow" They don't just say higher , for some strange reason they also added significantly which would make customers more likely to take their rate.

hognef

The entire concept of offering the buyer the option to pay in their own currency has always appeared to me as a sneaky way to trick them into paying more. I doubt any buyer has ever "won" by choosing that option.

I'm not sure what margins are normally added, but the 6% mentioned by the OP sounds over the top. Doesn't surprise me at all that this is coming from Ryanair though, as really this is just another example of them forcing people to opt out of, rather than in to, their expensive extras. No doubt lots will be caught out, just like they will have by Ryanair's travel insurance, etc.

The warnings are specifically designed to scare people back to Ryanair's preselected option.

While their wording may technically be correct, it's so unlikely to ever be correct that it effectively does constitute a lie.

This is a perfect example of a consumer issue: The consumer should be entitled to trust the seller, and shouldn't have to go through every detail with a fine tooth comb just to make sure they're not being screwed over. The corporate seller will always have the expertise and upper hand in these scenarios, which is precisely why the consumer needs protection.

It never ceases to amaze me how many appear to side with the seller in these cases (even though the seller's intent is obviously to take advantage of unaware consumers)--why are people so set on leaving every consumer on their own?

durtybit

power101 wrote: »

The way they phrase, using your example it would be more like "... possibly torrential downpour tomorrow" They don't just say higher , for some strange reason they also added significantly which would make customers more likely to take their rate.

If you have the skills to book a flight you have the skills to Google exchange rates.

MOH

It's a poor exchange rate for the consumer, but it's far from unique to Ryanair.

I'm seen the same thing on virtually every cross-currency transaction I've done online that offers the options of paying in their or your own currency, on many sites. And it's generally presented as being for the consumer's benefit, while being a higher rate than you might get from your own bank.

Not defending the practice, but it's probably worth bearing in mind that credit/debit cards have a range of different terms and exchange rates, and some of them can incur fees for cross-currency transactions. So while in your case the Ryanair rate might have been far higher than your bank's, it's quite possible that for someone else their "extortionate" fee might be closer to their bank's rate, and offset by saving on fees.

Flatzie_poo

MOH wrote: »

It's a poor exchange rate for the consumer, but it's far from unique to Ryanair.

I'm seen the same thing on virtually every cross-currency transaction I've done online that offers the options of paying in their or your own currency, on many sites. And it's generally presented as being for the consumer's benefit, while being a higher rate than you might get from your own bank.

Caveat emptor applies alright, but I think the main consumer issue here is how hard it is to pay in local currency vs base.

ohnonotgmail

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

Caveat emptor applies alright, but I think the main consumer issue here is how hard it is to pay in local currency vs base.

as i explained already the process of switching back to sterling is very simple.

Flatzie_poo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

as i explained already the process of switching back to sterling is very simple.

I'm talking about OP's issue. Just because you find something easy, does not mean everyone else will.

Graham

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

as i explained already the process of switching back to sterling is very simple.

The ease of switching isn't the issue.

The pre-selection of the (almost always) more expensive option is a UX dark pattern deliberately put in place to make additional revenue with almost zero benefit on the consumer side.

Effectively it's a surcharge for people that don't understand what is being pre-selected on their behalf.

ohnonotgmail

Graham wrote: »

The ease of switching isn't the issue.

The pre-selection of the (almost always) more expensive option is a UX dark pattern deliberately put in place to make additional revenue with almost zero benefit on the consumer side.

Effectively it's a surcharge for people that don't understand what is being pre-selected on their behalf.

i was responding to a post that said

the main consumer issue here is how hard it is to pay in local currency vs base.

nothing more.

witchgirl26

power101 wrote: »

Everything about the statement is misleading.

Ryanair's rate is also subject to daily fluctuations. Why is that line even in the text.

Because you pay the exact amount shown when you purchase whereas if you choose to let your bank do the conversion, it depends on the day the transaction hits your card as to what the exchange rate is. And sometimes it can take a couple of days to go through.

power101 wrote: »

Actually no it will always be lower if you go through your bank and don't take their outrageously expensive exchange rate. Misleading

They do say that it could be. Not that it will be. It's not misleading. It's warning you of a risk. I've had it, not with Ryanair mind but other online purchases, where it actually cost me more to pay in the local currency & not my own. Not by a massive amount but a little.

power101 wrote: »

They recommend that the customer in effect pays a higher fare?!

Of course they do! They're running a business & want the easiest option which is that you use their exchange rate. Plus for the sake of €5 I know very few people who'll really go mad about it. Mainly they'll just want to know exactly how much they are paying.

Look I get that it's annoying but at the end of the day they don't seemed to have breached any advertising standards etc. They give you the option to not pay in Euro & lay out the terms & conditions along with the exchange rate. It's the buyers choice at the end of the day with all the information there.

Flatzie_poo

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Plus for the sake of €5 I know very few people who'll really go mad about it.

If someone were to book multiple flight oblivious to this the cost is suddenly a lot more than €5...

The process should be seamless.

I don't see why the default "please select" and a dropdown with both options shouldn't be standard.

In my opinion, a default should favour the consumer as a norm.

witchgirl26

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

If someone were to book multiple flight oblivious to this the cost is suddenly a lot more than €5...

The process should be seamless.

I don't see why the default "please select" and a dropdown with both options shouldn't be standard.

In my opinion, a default should favour the consumer as a norm.

Because businesses are not there to favour the consumer - they are there to make money. And as long as they don't breach any standards of operation, they can do that how they wish.

In fact I'm not sure they have to even give you the option to pay in a currency that is not your own local currency but I'm open to correction on that one.

Look I could understand the outrage if they were forcing you to pay in Euro and you were in the UK but they're not. They are offering you the chance to pay in your own currency rather than in a foreign currency.

Flatzie_poo

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Because businesses are not there to favour the consumer - they are there to make money. And as long as they don't breach any standards of operation, they can do that how they wish.

No, but trading standards and directives are. My point is that the default option should favour the consumer.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Look I could understand the outrage if they were forcing you to pay in Euro and you were in the UK but they're not. They are offering you the chance to pay in your own currency rather than in a foreign currency.

At an extortionate rate.

witchgirl26

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

No, but trading standards and directives are. My point is that the default option should favour the consumer.

Yes trading standards & directives are but there is no breach of those in this instance. You were offered the option. They don't have to make it the easiest thing in the world but it wasn't over complicated.

And some would argue that knowing exactly what amount will show up on your credit/debit card & paying in your own currency (not a foreign one) is actually favouring the consumer.

Flatzie_poo

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Yes trading standards & directives are but there is no breach of those in this instance. You were offered the option. They don't have to make it the easiest thing in the world but it wasn't over complicated

I never said there was a breach. My point was a proactive approach on improving online payment systems.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

And some would argue that knowing exactly what amount will show up on your credit/debit card & paying in your own currency (not a foreign one) is actually favouring the consumer.

Aren't they required to show the full amount they will deduct for your card?

That wasn't always the case. Which links into my point on the default dropdown.

There were no breaches when Ryanair etc weren't including the full taxes etc on prices, until a law came in.

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

witchgirl26

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

Aren't they required to show the full amount they will deduct for your card?

I think you're missing my point. If they say it'll be €89 & you pay in Euro then you know exactly what amount you have been charged on your Euro based credit card. You pay £67 then you have to wait to see what the amount comes up as in Euro on your credit card. You know the £ amount but not what the Euro equivalent based on your banks exchange rate is.

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

I don't see it as being off topic. Yes the exchange rates are not on par with the bank but the option is there. It's not the easiest but I still don't believe it constitutes a complaint as it's still available.

Flatzie_poo

witchgirl26 wrote: »

I think you're missing my point. If they say it'll be €89 & you pay in Euro then you know exactly what amount you have been charged on your Euro based credit card. You pay £67 then you have to wait to see what the amount comes up as in Euro on your credit card. You know the £ amount but not what the Euro equivalent based on your banks exchange rate is.

You know the € amount at the loss of about €5. Your argument for this is just invalid. Go to XE.com and get a far more accurate rate at the loss of about 5 seconds of your life. You can know before clicking pay.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Yes the exchange rates are not on par with the bank

Nowhere near on par.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

but the option is there. It's not the easiest but I still don't believe it constitutes a complaint as it's still available.

It should be easy. The way in which it their site defaults to the less favorable rate warrants a complaint alone.

feargale

hognef wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me how many appear to side with the seller in these cases (even though the seller's intent is obviously to take advantage of unaware consumers)--why are people so set on leaving every consumer on their own?

Sometimes when a complaint is made in Consumer Issues a representative of the company openly posts in response. That's fair enough even if we don't agree with the response.
However I suspect that occasionally a company representative posts posing as a disinterested member of the public. I would be particularly conscious of this when OP simply posts a factual statement and is then subjected to personal abuse bordering on cyber bullying or where there is an attempt to defend the indefensible. Mods don't seem to be picking up on this, though on the other hand they are very adept at detecting surreptitious advertising of goods and services.
Of course another possible explanation is that posters are engaged in commercial activity that leaves them feeling uncomfortable with exposure of sharp practice and are consequently biased against consumers' complaints of this nature.