Employee warning?

Lau2976

Hope this is an appropriate forum for this!

I have a student working for me at the moment and all has been going well but I recently discovered that a friend came to the premises on an evening in which she was working and I was not present and that said friend locked the door and put up a closed sign while someone was on the premises shopping. She speaks to them and they leave, the customer who often buys from me, contacted me about this and how upset they were. I've reviewed the security footage and it looks like the employee heads to the back to get something and that's when her friend does it. The customer leaves before she returns. They don't reopen the permises and stay until she was meant to actually close up.

Im not really sure what to do in this instance. Should it be a formal warning? Something like a chat? It's the first issue we've had but I'm starting to wonder If that is just because I'm usually present! I have that I warn her about anything previously and I'm not sure how hard to come down on her on this. I want her to know it isn't acceptable.

Any guidance would really help as I'm torn on what do to her. Or a suggestion as to something else that I could do instead?

PM me nudes

Sackable offence imo.
She put the reputation of the business and a valued customers custom at risk to have a chat with her friend. Inexcusable.

Chemical Byrne

is she working for you less than six months? If so you're within your rights to give her a (figurative) boot up the hole out the door with no formal procedures.
That's what I'd do. Either that or dock her the average takings for that particular weekday for period they closed up early.
I'd be doing the former, that is simply unacceptable. At the very least I think you should shout at her.

Less than 6 months (or is it a yr), you can sack anyone for any reason (except the holy 9 discrimination categories). You can decide you don't like someone's hairstyle, their shoes or the way they looked at you and turf them out on the street.

dreamers75

Have an investigation chat, ensure she has a copy of your discplinary procedure (doing the above as that would cost you about 5k).

Review the details from the investigation, then make your decision based on that and that alone. If you dont have a disciplinary procedure and you sack her, she will claim and will win.

Doing what either of the 2 above mentioned will cost you minimum 5k....and you will be on this website in the near future. https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Cases/2015/August/

Lau2976

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

is she working for you less than six months? If so you're within your rights to give her a (figurative) boot up the hole out the door. That's what I'd do. Either that or dock her the average takings for that particular weekday for period they closed up early.
I'd be doing the former, that is simply unacceptable.

Yeah she started working late July. Thanks for the advice.

Lau2976

dreamers75 wrote: »

Have an investigation chat, ensure she has a copy of your discplinary procedure (doing the above as that would cost you about 5k).

Review the details from the investigation, then make your decision based on that and that alone. If you dont have a disciplinary procedure and you sack her, she will claim and will win.

Doing what either of the 2 above mentioned will cost you minimum 5k....and you will be on this website in the near future. https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Cases/2015/August/

Thanks for the link!

stoneill

Who locked the door - the employee or your friend?

Lau2976

stoneill wrote: »

Who locked the door - the employee or your friend?

Her friend.

Chemical Byrne

Lau2976 wrote: »

Yeah she started working late July. Thanks for the advice.

In that case OP:

Penny Tration

Lau2976 wrote: »

Yeah she started working late July. Thanks for the advice. It's nice to know where I stand too with other options!

If she started working in late July, you can sack her once it's not under the nine discrimination grounds (which it's not).

If she's there less than 13 weeks, you can sack her for no reason, with no notice period - unless you gave her more rights in her contract!

Ashbx

As its a first instance, I personally would give her a verbal warning but not necessarily count it as a formal warning. Did she know her friend closed the door? If not, I definitely wouldn't go too hard on her but I would definitely pull her aside and tell her you saw it all on cctv, that a customer complained about it and tell her outright that its unacceptable. Hopefully the verbal warning itself would be enough - I know it would if it was me and my boss.

I would make it clear that just because you are not in the premises does not mean you don't know whats going on. Even exaggerate a bit and tell her you have access to the CCTV at home so you could be watching at home for all she knows. Don't let her get away with it anyway because she will probably take advantage then but I wouldn't go as far as giving her a formal warning right from the start.

Best of luck!

Chemical Byrne

OP, why don't you just sack her. She's only in the door and is taking the piss already! Get rid of her pronto.

What sort of shop is it?

Ashbx

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

OP, why don't you just sack her. She's only in the door and is taking the piss already! Get rid of her pronto.

What sort of shop is it?

You could also look at it that she's only in the door 2 months and the business owner is trusting her to close the shop already!? Surely the owner should be taking some responsibility too! Plus she's a student. I don't know how old but if it was my shop, I would be making sure I can trust the person who is left to look after it alone.

Obviously this staff member couldn't be trusted.

OP its your call but I don't think approaching this all guns blazing is the best approach.

seamus

Forget about docking pay or anything like that, it's just asking for trouble.

Tell them exactly what you have said above - a good customer complained, you reviewed the footage and saw that her "mate" closed the shop early.

Unless she has a really really good excuse, pay her outstanding wages (bring them and her P45 with you to save you the hassle) and tell her to leave.

Until a year has passed, she has basically no recourse for being fired.

Lau2976

The girl is 21 and isn't usually left alone as there's me and another full time member of staff. This situation was sadly the one time one of us hasn't been there which is why I'm worried that it wouldn't be an isolated situation.

I sell my art and also run a printing service for other artists. This customer buys a lot of my art work.

Calhoun

Lau2976 wrote: »

The girl is 21 and isn't usually left alone as there's me and another full time member of staff. This situation was sadly the one time one of us hasn't been there which is why I'm worried that it wouldn't be an isolated situation.

I sell my art and also run a printing service for other artists. This customer buys a lot of my art work.

Your not just running a clothes shop or a retail type store which would have a varied turnover of customers.

Your in a niche area that doesn't quite appeal to the masses and the services/product you offer come with an expectation of service level and professionalism from employees.

Hard to decide on what to do but what ever you do make sure you review training for new hires in the future so they know what you expect.

Mr.Carter

FFS....no need to go Rambo on the issue, have a small chat and move on....everyone has to learn from mistakes.
Some shower of "Hitlers" on here

Did she know what this friend did?

LegacyUser

You have actually already breached data protection laws by viewing the CCTV footage.

CCTV can only be used against staff when A, Its clearly outlined to the staff in advance that it can and the reasons why and
B, Its being used based on prior events or reasonable foresight ie watching the till due to concerns for staff thefts.

Your situation is not a reasonable circumstance nor would I assume based on this thread that you have forewarned your staff.

see: https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Case-Studies-2008/732.htm#6

Clearlier

Lau2976 wrote: »

Hope this is an appropriate forum for this!

I have a student working for me at the moment and all has been going well but I recently discovered that a friend came to the premises on an evening in which she was working and I was not present and that said friend locked the door and put up a closed sign while someone was on the premises shopping. She speaks to them and they leave, the customer who often buys from me, contacted me about this and how upset they were. I've reviewed the security footage and it looks like the employee heads to the back to get something and that's when her friend does it. The customer leaves before she returns. They don't reopen the permises and stay until she was meant to actually close up.

Im not really sure what to do in this instance. Should it be a formal warning? Something like a chat? It's the first issue we've had but I'm starting to wonder If that is just because I'm usually present! I have that I warn her about anything previously and I'm not sure how hard to come down on her on this. I want her to know it isn't acceptable.

Any guidance would really help as I'm torn on what do to her. Or a suggestion as to something else that I could do instead?

It sounds from your description like your employee was and probably still is unaware of what happened. Her 'friend' has behaved awfully here and certainly merits being refused entry on a permanent basis.

It might be worth imagining a scenario where the friend was your friend rather than hers and consider what you would do then.

Chemical Byrne

Perhaps you could demand that the takings that you would have got while closed are recouped from the friend?

Mrs OBumble

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Perhaps you could demand that the takings that you would have got while closed are recouped from the friend?

Oh ffs! Would you ever spend about three seconds imagining how the advice would go if them employee came on here, told how things happened (including that some detailed about the "friend" - goodness only knows what the story, is but real friends don't try to get you fired) and said that she'd got sacked or the manager was garnishing hundreds from her wages.

You'd be the first to be posting about what a nasty piece the manager is, and how the ex employee should be aiming to get back at them.



OP - if she's worth keeping (subject area knowledge, sales skills, presentation, contacts she might have), then she needs some re-training about your expectations. If she's not, then you need to consider your induction for part-time workers a bit harder. Your call about what to do - you do have termination options, but art's a small world, do think about who you might annoy if you fire.

Calhoun

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Perhaps you could demand that the takings that you would have got while closed are recouped from the friend?

Not sure if that would work to be honest and would assume it would be hard to do much legally on it .

uck51js9zml2yt

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Oh ffs! Would you ever spend about three seconds imagining how the advice would go if them employee came on here, told how things happened (including that some detailed about the "friend" - goodness only knows what the story, is but real friends don't try to get you fired) and said that she'd got sacked or the manager was garnishing hundreds from her wages.

You'd be the first to be posting about what a nasty piece the manager is, and how the ex employee should be aiming to get back at them.



OP - if she's worth keeping (subject area knowledge, sales skills, presentation, contacts she might have), then she needs some re-training about your expectations. If she's not, then you need to consider your induction for part-time workers a bit harder. Your call about what to do - you do have termination options, but art's a small world, do think about who you might annoy if you fire.

Have to agree with Mrs O. Is she worth keeping?
What's she been like the last few months.

If she's worth keeping. Have a chat, let her do the talkng, so open questions!
Based on her response make a decision. You can retrain her, sack her or extend her probation period when the time comes.
Whatever you do put a verbal warning on her file and ban the friend.

Galwayguy35

Mr.Carter wrote: »

FFS....no need to go Rambo on the issue, have a small chat and move on....everyone has to learn from mistakes.
Some shower of "Hitlers" on here

It wasn't a mistake, they left the door locked and she basically did no work until it was clocking off time.

Wasters like that don't deserve a job, give the position to someone who will appreciate the work.

bikermartin

Jobs are so hard to be got this behaviour is unacceptable. Loads of people that can be trusted out there. This employee can not. I would let her go.

C.K Dexter Haven

I think it would be worth deciding based on your experience of her to date. if you've found her a conscientious worker to date and you think she's good for your business, then a very clear, frank discussion maybe all that's required, outlining that her behaviour is not acceptable, and also explain the impact it has had on your customer, and business.

I think depending on her reaction and response, I'd then make my decision. If she's defensive and dismissive, then I think parting is the best approach. If she appears apologetic (genuinely) and looks like she has learnt something from the experience AND you think she's good for your business, then I'd consider keeping her on.

I think the best test is- would you trust her in the future? If ultimately, the answer is only "maybe", then there's your answer.

Bicycle

seamus wrote: »

Forget about docking pay or anything like that, it's just asking for trouble.

Tell them exactly what you have said above - a good customer complained, you reviewed the footage and saw that her "mate" closed the shop early.

Unless she has a really really good excuse, pay her outstanding wages (bring them and her P45 with you to save you the hassle) and tell her to leave.

Until a year has passed, she has basically no recourse for being fired.

The Year is not a real year.

• Its 365 days e.g. it runs from the 1st October 2014 to the 30th September 2015.
• It must include any holidays not taken
• It must include any notice period

So really the "year" when you have the opportunity to dismiss someone without them having the opportunity to take a case of Unfair Dismissal against you is really best treated as 11 months.

nadroir

Just talk to her. These days people get so caught up in sides and forgot to talk. A good chat to explain your worries and you may turn her into best employee you ever had. She can't learn if not told her mistakes. If not then your can fire her with good reason and clear conscience. Would people have kids kicked out of school cause got homework wrong?

davo10

If your employee is contracted to work certain hours, she neglected her duty by closing early thereby potentially impacting your business. Allowing a non employee to interact with a customer on your behalf is another breach of duty.

Unfortunately in this cases your employee's poor judgement and. dereliction of duty is hard to overcome and though it is a hard lesson to learn, termination of employment is the appropriate action.

To the earlier poster who said viewing the camera is a breach of employee rights, only if the employee had not been made aware that cctv is present and only if it is present to record what the employee does. In this case the camera would seem to have been directed toward the door so it is a security device .

davo10

If your employee is contracted to work certain hours, she neglected her duty by closing early thereby potentially impacting your business. Allowing a non employee to interact with a customer on your behalf is another breach of duty.

Unfortunately in this cases your employee's poor judgement and. dereliction of duty is hard to overcome and though it is a hard lesson to learn, termination of employment is the appropriate action.

To the earlier poster who said viewing the camera is a breach of employee rights, only if the employee had not been made aware that cctv is present and only if it is present to record what the employee does. In this case the camera would seem to have been directed toward the door so it is a security device .

newacc2015

nadroir wrote: »

Just talk to her. These days people get so caught up in sides and forgot to talk. A good chat to explain your worries and you may turn her into best employee you ever had. She can't learn if not told her mistakes. If not then your can fire her with good reason and clear conscience. Would people have kids kicked out of school cause got homework wrong?

I totally disagree. I have worked in retail and a hostel. The employers never made it clear what the rules regarding staff areas are, as you should know that staff only areas are staff only areas. You should havent to be told, that you dont invite friends in for a chat in the middle of your shift. It could have been OPs employee that told her friend to lock the door. Personally I would fire her for leaving the stock unattended. This is the only instance that OP knows about. There is a chance this has happened before

If the employee lacks the most basic cop on. TBH I would just find another. This is a business. You cant afford to have basic level employee messing up sales. At the age of 21 you shouldnt be learning the most basic rules of retails by mistakes and learning not to do them again ie leaving stock unattended, having conversations with friends. This is common sense you should have already.

davo10

davo10 wrote: »

If your employee is contracted to work certain hours, she neglected her duty by closing early thereby potentially impacting your business. Allowing a non employee to interact with a customer on your behalf is another breach of duty.

Unfortunately in this cases your employee's poor judgement and. dereliction of duty is hard to overcome and though it is a hard lesson to learn, termination of employment is the appropriate action.

To the earlier poster who said viewing the camera is a breach of employee rights, only if the employee had not been made aware that cctv is present and only if it is present to record what the employee does. In this case the camera would seem to have been directed toward the door so it is a security device .

Did the employee know what a 3rd party (friend) did? The original post makes it seem that the employee was not in sight of the door when it was locked and may have been unaware

Clearlier

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Did the employee know what a 3rd party (friend) did? The original post makes it seem that the employee was not in sight of the door when it was locked and may have been unaware

I think that this is worthy of clarification. Everything in the OP suggested to me that the employee was unaware of her friends actions. 90% of the posts in this thread seem to think that she either did the actions her friend did or was complicit.

davo10

Lau2976 wrote: »

. They don't reopen the permises and stay until she was meant to actually close up.

Seems the employee was complicit.

Jack GrEnglish

Give a friendly warning and keep a closer eye on him/her.

Sacking is far too extreme.

IrishLoriii

Personally, I think its extremely unfair to fire her because of a
friend's doing. I think you need to take her aside, explain that there
was a complaint made (I wouldnt necessarily say who it was to prevent
negative vibes in the future), that you reviewed the CCTV and were
dissapointed by what you saw. Explain that you've thought long and hard
about what to do about the situation but as she has only just started
your going to treat it as a once off mistake that will not happen again.

Tell her your going to give her another chance to prove herself but if any problems
happen within the next 2-3 months again your going to have to reconsider her
value to your business. I would also drop in a comment about loitering and chatting
with friends while on the job as she is there to work..yes it could have been
about art but I highly doubt if it was it was so important that the shop needed
to be locked! I hope it all works out for you!

jimmycrackcorm

ESForum wrote: »

You have actually already breached data protection laws by viewing the CCTV footage.

CCTV can only be used against staff when A, Its clearly outlined to the staff in advance that it can and the reasons why and
B, Its being used based on prior events or reasonable foresight ie watching the till due to concerns for staff thefts.

Your situation is not a reasonable circumstance nor would I assume based on this thread that you have forewarned your staff.

see: https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Case-Studies-2008/732.htm#6

Not correct. The DP case study was about covert CCTV specifically used for entrapment, not normal CCTV.

If I were the OP I'd have to be sure that the employee absolutely knew the closed sign was up, as she went to the back, when she came back she may not have noticed the sign changed coming back.

coffeepls

I thought about the situation that happened, as the OP has described, and I think that the 'friend' that put up the 'closed' sign and spoke to the customer may have been the instigator, but the employee did not choose to change the sign back. The friend must've said it to her after it was done.

Anyway. From what I can read, this is a small business and the OP trusted this girl. That trust has been compromised. Maybe it was a one off foolish thing that happened, but the OP will think twice about letting her have control of potentially shutting shop early. She obviously does not appreciate her job and the responsibility that goes with it. At 21 years old she should know better. To be honest, I work in retail and she would be let go in my work. But it's up to the OP. Tell her what the customer said, rather than what is known to have happened on the cctv. See what she says. Base your judgement on her response I think.

Diamond Doll

Wow, that's some "friend". :eek:

I would say it to her. Rather than mentioning the CCTV, I'd just say that the customer told you she was asked to leave by your friend, and then observed the friend putting up the Closed sign. And that she mentioned it to you as she was aware the friend didn't actually work in the shop. Then decide your next actions based on her reaction to that.

Presumably the friend must have at least confessed to her afterwards? As surely she'd notice when leaving that the sign was already up?

I'd feel bad for her losing her job after it when it seems there's a good chance she didn't realise what her friend had done at the time.

If you do decide to keep her on, definitely make a rule that friends aren't allowed visit her when she's working. Similar rules were in place in any retail job I've ever worked in.

Lau2976

I spoke to her this morning. She apologized and said that she hadn't realized that her friend had done it until it was closing time. She assured me that the friend in question appeared unannounced and that if it happened with anybody in the future she'll tell them to leave.

I'm happy to leave it at that for now. I wouldn't trust her alone in the store necessarily but if it wasn't for an emergency I wouldn't have left her alone anyway.

Thanks for all the help guys!

As for CCTV, she's aware of its presence and it's mentioned in her contract.

C.K Dexter Haven

Lau2976 wrote: »

I spoke to her this morning. She apologized and said that she hadn't realized that her friend had done it until it was closing time. She assured me that the friend in question appeared unannounced and that if it happened with anybody in the future she'll tell them to leave.

I'm happy to leave it at that for now. I wouldn't trust her alone in the store necessarily but if it wasn't for an emergency I wouldn't have left her alone anyway.

Thanks for all the help guys!

As for CCTV, she's aware of its presence and it's mentioned in her contract.

Good outcome there Lau2976

Jack GrEnglish

C.K Dexter Haven wrote: »

Good outcome there Lau2976

The lad did exactly what I told him to do. Vindication!

Chemical Byrne

You're being taken for a fool op. Sure what else would she say only she didn't know the friend did the sign change.
She has gotten away with it and now she will run rings around you unless you sack her.

Chemical Byrne

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

You're being taken for a fool op. Sure what else would she say only she didn't know the friend did the sign change.
She has gotten away with it and now she will run rings around you unless you sack her.

Proof not required in your house?

Ashbx

Well done OP, I think you handled it well. Just make sure she doesn't take the piss in the future....she's had her warning now!

Aye Bosun

I think you did the right thing OP, I was in a similar situation when I was a student, a so called friend popped into the shop and while by back was turned they put something in their bag. It was seen on CCTV and of course and rightly so I got the blame. But the owner of shop had chat with me and I explained I didn't actually know the person but went to junior school with them, they saw me though the window and popped into say hello. I was initially sacked but requested my boss to check my references properly and after a few phone calls to my old employers I was re-hired..only to work there for another 5 years and ended up as manager of the store.

All I am saying is that there is 2 sides to every story, this seems likes a genuine mistake on the employees part, you can be sure as hell she's going to pick up her game now too!

One thing I would think about doing is extending the probation period for her, just in case all is not as it seems, you will still have an easy route to dismissal.

km991148

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

You're being taken for a fool op. Sure what else would she say only she didn't know the friend did the sign change.
She has gotten away with it and now she will run rings around you unless you sack her.

Think thats a bit much - we have no idea what the employee is like really - OP done the right thing and now employee knows if any further p-taking then its time to go..

seamus

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

You're being taken for a fool op. Sure what else would she say only she didn't know the friend did the sign change.
She has gotten away with it and now she will run rings around you unless you sack her.

Or...if she was complicit it's far more likely this is the kick in the arse she needs, now that she knows the owner is watching and isn't afraid to address issues with her.

Even though it's not been said explicitly, only a complete idiot wouldn't think that this unofficially a final warning.

KevAVFC

in my first job when i was 17 i was responsible for closing up , i was only there a few weeks 2 months at most and my cousin dropped in an hour before i was due to finish and close up, on my own for the first time , looking to go for a round of golf. The shop was quiet enough so i gave it 20 minutes and shut up shop , taking stands and stuff in while there was one last customer there.

My manager caught me on the CCTV gave me a serious talking to and docked my wages a full hour for that day, to this day i would say it is still the most important lesson i have learned in any job i've had. I never left that job early again and i gained a whole new appriciation for how lucky i was to have it.

No doubt what your employee did was out of order OP but maybe give her the benefit of the doubt there could be a good employee in there who just needs a wake up call.

LegacyUser

For those saying I am incorrect about the CCTV, the data controllers comments in their findings that I linked was:

"In the case of this data subject, her personal data was further processed in a manner incompatible with the original purpose. Furthermore, the data subject's personal data was not processed in accordance with the requirements of 'fair processing' as she had not been informed by the data controller, at the time when the data controller first processed her data, of the purpose for which it intended to process her personal data."

The data controllers decision was not reached because the cameras in question were covert but on the grounds that unless staff are warned that the cameras may be used in discipline and under what circumstances, their use is a breach of data protection.

The OP states that the CCTV is within the contract so I assuming that means the contract allows their use for discipline which is fine and dandy