Olympic selection for marathon.

Dublin9210

So we had London and Maria Mc missed out.Selecting the three fastest times.

Now four years later we have something similar.This time though the guys have enough time to have a go again.
The negative with this is Mick Clohisey will be forced to run another marathon in the spring when we should be sending the lads away to train for Rio.
Pollock and Kenneally will be gunning for a faster time than the lads.

So what should they do in the future?
Have a trials race or a deadline 6 months from the Olympics?

kit3

Will be interesting to see how they handle this alright.

dublin runner

Part of me would love to see DCM as the Olympic trial. Not too sure how it would work but would for an amazing race every 4 years at least (like the American trial in ways). Berlin was great to follow on the tracker so could you imagine it played out on the streets of the capital?

RayCun

Dublin9210 wrote: »

Have a trials race or a deadline 6 months from the Olympics?

They do say that this year they'll be taking into account when the qualifying time was run, and it is better to qualify this year than in the spring.
But there's definitely a case to be made that the marathon team and reserves should be named at the end of the year before the Olympics, so Olympic year is all about training

RayCun

dublin runner wrote: »

Part of me would love to see DCM as the Olympic trial.

It would be fantastic, but we probably don't have enough runners who would be confident of getting the qualifying time on a slower course

pistol_75

Pollock seems to be prepared to go again the the spring (probably unless he got the nod in advance). I have no doubt if he got an injury free run he would better his current time and most probably the other qualified guys as well. There is no doubt though that he would probably not run to his potential come Rio.

I guess he was unlucky to get an 11cm tear in his quad a few weeks before Berlin :eek:

To me he is probably our best marathon runner at the moment. I wonder will we have any more than 5 people run the qualifying time?

dublin runner

RayCun wrote: »

It would be fantastic, but we probably don't have enough runners who would be confident of getting the qualifying time on a slower course

True. The only solution is to make the course faster! For me it's a no brainer and everyone is a winner. Particularly with the year that's in it I fully expect the standard to be quite poor in Dublin his year, hopefully I am wrong though.

I feel a bit sorry for Mick and he's kind off in limbo (assuming Pollock and Mark go again next April). Mick has probably no choice but to go through another cycle and target Rotterdam in April. I could easily include Sergiu in that. I do expect Pollock to be the fastest come the deadline though.

Chivito550

Stupid having them chasing times 4 months out from Rio. Deadline should be 31 December. Then of those qualified they can prepare for Rio, proving form through half marathon races and the like.

Krusty_Clown

Do we know for sure that Mick Clohisey (or Seaward/Ciobanu for that matter) are targeting a spring marathon? That would be extremely unfortunate and shift the focus entirely from Olympic performance to Olympic qualification. A trial in Dublin would certainly be a better solution (the AAI could still reserve an additional spot for someone who shows great promise and runs like a 2:14 or 2:31 elsewhere). If a runner isn't sure they could hit the standard in Dublin, then perhaps they shouldn't be up for consideration anyway? Certainly the women's qualification time is very generous (Lizzy had nearly a 10 minute cushion), and running sub 2:17 in Dublin is probably close to the equivalent of running a 2:15 in Berlin (weather conditions permitting).

RayCun

the 2016 policy has been published
https://athleticsireland.app.box.com/16-OGpolicy

Marathon
2.5 If more than three athletes have achieved the Entry Standard for the marathon event (e.g. 4 women) other factors (but not limited to) that may be considered by the Selection Panel for the marathon nominations are:
A. Consideration for the course speed rating (average race time bias) of athletes with comparable achieved Entry Standards that are within (one minute +/- .7%) of each other.
B. Further consideration will be given to athletes who achieve the marathon Entry Standard for the first time during three key performance windows. Each one of the performance windows will be considered for nomination in order of priority during the Qualification Timeline:
Priority 1: April/May and September/November 2015
The two 2015 performance windows designated give athletes the best opportunity to secure an Entry Standard, and as well, allow enough time for athletes to recover and put in a full preparation period to improve performance prior to the Olympic Games.
Priority 2: January/March 2016 Athletes that achieve the Entry Standard during the first 2016 performance window would have time to recover, and with a shorter preparation period still have period to improve performance prior to the Olympic Games. Athletes who achieve the marathon Entry Standard during the first two ‘priority performance windows’ (Priority 1 and 2) will be required to prove fitness before the final marathon selections on 23 May, 2016.
Priority 3: April and up to the 23 of May 2016
Athletes that achieve the marathon Entry Standard during the ‘last chance performance window’ would be considered as a third priority for nomination consideration.

"Each one of the performance windows will be considered for nomination in order of priority during the Qualification Timeline"

I guess they want to have a bit of leeway - they'd like to pick the qualifiers on the basis of 2015, but if someone runs a great time up to March they don't want to exclude them. Rotterdam and London are in the priority 3 window - any fast marathons in Feb or March?

pconn062

I'm confused, why would Mick need to run another time, he ran the 3rd fastest time in Berlin no? Is it not pollock that needs to go faster as he was 4th man in?

RayCun

pconn062 wrote: »

I'm confused, why would Mick need to run another time, he ran the 3rd fastest time in Berlin no? Is it not pollock that needs to go faster as he was 4th man in?

yeah, but if he thinks Pollock (or Kenneally) is going to run a faster time in spring then he can't count on that place

Notwork Error

I don't think a DCM type trial would work, it would be great watch though. This is the first time in 23 years that we've had a full team make the standard. If we are constantly having so many athletes make the standard that we need a trials at the DCM, This would create another problem in that we would have a team also running in the World Championships which always falls the year before the Olympics, Any athletes that make that team would have only 2 months to make a turnaround for a DCM trials so It would put the best athletes who have already qualified for a major championship at a huge disadvantage or have them considering not to run in the World champs at all and we don't want that. This could potentially mean the athletes would have to run 3 marathon a year.

If no one had qualified at the weekend, we would be asking where they could go for a shot next year so I don't think deadlines and trials are the best option. Until we have huge depth all with the ability to hit the standard, I think we should be giving as many of our athletes the best chance of going and Dublin doesn't offer up oppurtunity as all of the WMM's. Now is not the time to tighten the Q process in my opinion, they have just accomplished something that hasn't happened in a long time.

RayCun

but (and we talked about this in 2016 qualification) the problem is that if someone runs their qualifying time in London at the end of April, they don't have much time to prepare for the Olympics. Lizzie Lee said the other day that from now on all of her training is about Rio, that's the lead time you really want for the marathon

Krusty_Clown

Notwork Error wrote: »

I don't think a DCM type trial would work, it would be great watch though. This is the first time in 23 years that we've had a full team make the standard. If we are constantly having so many athletes make the standard that we need a trials at the DCM, This would create another problem in that we would have a team also running in the World Championships which always falls the year before the Olympics, Any athletes that make that team would have only 2 months to make a turnaround for a DCM trials so It would put the best athletes who have already qualified for a major championship at a huge disadvantage or have them considering not to run in the World champs at all and we don't want that. This could potentially mean the athletes would have to run 3 marathon a year.

But, on the other hand, perhaps we should have some runners targeting the World Champs and others the Olympics (kind of like the Champions league and the Europa) - particularly if (as it looks like the case may be), we have more runners with the appropriate qualification than we can send. Worth remembering also, that we didn't send anyone to the World Champs this year for the marathon.

Notwork Error

RayCun wrote: »

but (and we talked about this in 2016 qualification) the problem is that if someone runs their qualifying time in London at the end of April, they don't have much time to prepare for the Olympics. Lizzie Lee said the other day that from now on all of her training is about Rio, that's the lead time you really want for the marathon

I know it's not perfect but how many athletes given the chance of freak weather and only one chance at a DCM trials would make the standard. If the weather is bad or they pick up a niggle in training, we could have 0 going instead of the full team we have now.

Just read your last post which is interesting, I think it's a fair system as priority 1 gets all the go ahead on the fastest courses in the World and it would take an absolutely dominant display from an athlete in London to get selected.

ultrapercy

RayCun wrote: »

yeah, but if he thinks Pollock (or Kenneally) is going to run a faster time in spring then he can't count on that place

Yes, Mick is in the most vulnerable position and the likelihood is that pollock will still be our number 1 marathon man in Rio. He will run 2.13 in spring. Sergio told me he is going to sit on his time and cross his fingers. Rotterdam is a slightly slower race imo so Mick will need to run a quicker time under pressure on a slower course. Pressure is not something that seems to bother him tho. There are a number of others who were very close to 2.15 last Sunday Gary Thornton lost 2 mins in last 7k Tom Fitz blew a calf in his debut on course for a simular time, both have potential to pull a rabbit from the hat if fortune is kinder. Mark Kirwan ran a cracker and paced it so evenly it leads me to suspect there is more to come, 4 mins is a big ask tho. Kenneally is still our fastest marathon runner still competing and if he can sort out the injuries will be in with a big shout. What's the story with Cragg (a shoe in for nation record if he didn't aim for 2.02 every time) Eoin Callaghan will go again in spring and for him, it seems, the biscuit tin is never on a high enough shelf as to be out of reach. Gary Murray ran a 2.21 debut far removed from the potential he showed 5 years ago but class is permanent and he may recapture his form yet. It's good times in Irish marathon running and credit is due to AAI and Dublin Marathon for their Marathon Mission initiative that resurrected standards from a depressing low of the late noughties. The women's side of the equation is also looking healthy and may yet throw up some more welcome selection conundrums.

groovyg

Chivito550 wrote: »

Stupid having them chasing times 4 months out from Rio. Deadline should be 31 December. Then of those qualified they can prepare for Rio, proving form through half marathon races and the like.

Totally agree its a crazy set up, Sergiu said he is not targeting another marathon in the spring and will hopefully prove his form at the world half marathon in March.
Are results and performances from this going to be taken into account to avoid having the likes of Sergiu and Mick run another marathon in spring?

RayCun

groovyg wrote: »

Are results and performances from this going to be taken into account to avoid having the likes of Sergiu and Mick run another marathon in spring?

On the one hand, if you try to set out a clear and easy to follow set of criteria for selection, someone will argue that the criteria are too simplistic and x, y, and z should really be taken into account.
But if you say, "the selection committee will use their judgement to pick the best athletes available, taking into account a, b, c, x, y, z, and also m, n, o, and p" people will complain about athletes not knowing what they have to do to qualify, decisions being made in back rooms by men in blazers, etc, etc

The only certainties are that some athletes will be disappointed, and some people will complain that the wrong athletes are disappointed.

Chivito550

Notwork Error wrote: »

I don't think a DCM type trial would work, it would be great watch though. This is the first time in 23 years that we've had a full team make the standard. If we are constantly having so many athletes make the standard that we need a trials at the DCM, This would create another problem in that we would have a team also running in the World Championships which always falls the year before the Olympics, Any athletes that make that team would have only 2 months to make a turnaround for a DCM trials so It would put the best athletes who have already qualified for a major championship at a huge disadvantage or have them considering not to run in the World champs at all and we don't want that. This could potentially mean the athletes would have to run 3 marathon a year.

If no one had qualified at the weekend, we would be asking where they could go for a shot next year so I don't think deadlines and trials are the best option. Until we have huge depth all with the ability to hit the standard, I think we should be giving as many of our athletes the best chance of going and Dublin doesn't offer up oppurtunity as all of the WMM's. Now is not the time to tighten the Q process in my opinion, they have just accomplished something that hasn't happened in a long time.

Well given the AAI adjusted their standards for Beijing in order to not to have to send anyone, and consequently we have lost Sinead Diver as a result, I don't see the World Championships being any sort of a factor in terms of the Olympics!

pconn062

ultrapercy wrote: »

Yes, Mick is in the most vulnerable position and the likelihood is that pollock will still be our number 1 marathon man in Rio. He will run 2.13 in spring. Sergio told me he is going to sit on his time and cross his fingers. Rotterdam is a slightly slower race imo so Mick will need to run a quicker time under pressure on a slower course. Pressure is not something that seems to bother him tho. There are a number of others who were very close to 2.15 last Sunday Gary Thornton lost 2 mins in last 7k Tom Fitz blew a calf in his debut on course for a simular time, both have potential to pull a rabbit from the hat if fortune is kinder. Mark Kirwan ran a cracker and paced it so evenly it leads me to suspect there is more to come, 4 mins is a big ask tho. Kenneally is still our fastest marathon runner still competing and if he can sort out the injuries will be in with a big shout. What's the story with Cragg (a shoe in for nation record if he didn't aim for 2.02 every time) Eoin Callaghan will go again in spring and for him, it seems, the biscuit tin is never on a high enough shelf as to be out of reach. Gary Murray ran a 2.21 debut far removed from the potential he showed 5 years ago but class is permanent and he may recapture his form yet. It's good times in Irish marathon running and credit is due to AAI and Dublin Marathon for their Marathon Mission initiative that resurrected standards from a depressing low of the late noughties. The women's side of the equation is also looking healthy and may yet throw up some more welcome selection conundrums.

I think realistically the three are going to come from the 4 who got the time at the weekend. I just can't see Thornton, Fitzpatrick or Kirwan being able to get down to 2.14/15. They are a step behind the other lads in all other distances on the road. Think Kenneally would be in with a good shout but seems to struggle a lot with injuries. I think Mark Christie would be the best bet to also get the time but I haven't heard anything about him targeting a marathon?

shels4ever

I think it was also mentioned originally that two spaces will be picked by the year end leaving the 3rd up for grabs, I cant see that happening now with everyone so close. Had fagan and Pollock but run 2:12 maybe it would have worked but I wouldn't like to have the job of picking the 3 now. I would see Mick going a minute faster again next timeout all going well and I like that he will focus on the euro XC now before another shot in the spring. I've a bad feeling about Pollock I think he might miss out.

Notwork Error

Chivito550 wrote: »

Well given the AAI adjusted their standards for Beijing in order to not to have to send anyone, and consequently we have lost Sinead Diver as a result, I don't see the World Championships being any sort of a factor in terms of the Olympics!

Giving them only one shot in Dublin and tightening the deadline is the exact same as making the standard more difficult too. I think doing so, would be getting ahead of ourselves and not taking into to consideration the future Q process just because 4 hit the mark this time, there is no guarantee it will happen in 4 years time. It's a feast or famine thing which is never a good option.


We spent 10 pages earlier this year in the Rio thread discussing why the standard shouldn't lowered and the affect it would have on athletics, one day and as great as it was to see in September shouldn't change that. I think changing it now would be shortsighted.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Stupid having them chasing times 4 months out from Rio. Deadline should be 31 December. Then of those qualified they can prepare for Rio, proving form through half marathon races and the like.

Stop talking sense will ya:D

dublin runner

pconn062 wrote:

I think realistically the three are going to come from the 4 who got the time at the weekend. I just can't see Thornton, Fitzpatrick or Kirwan being able to get down to 2.14/15. They are a step behind the other lads in all other distances on the road. Think Kenneally would be in with a good shout but seems to struggle a lot with injuries. I think Mark Christie would be the best bet to also get the time but I haven't heard anything about him targeting a marathon?

I think Tom could get down to those times but perhaps not for Rotterdam.

You only get one chance every four years at the olympics so I can't why, on a faster course, Dublin shouldn't be a straight shoot-out. Championship racing at it's best. We have the numbers at the moment, that may change of course. Get it on TV, get the crowds. How amazing would that be?

pconn062

Lindie's piece: http://www.herald.ie/sport/other-sports/athletics-selectors-have-riddle-for-rio-31568343.html

PVincent

What I think was most encouraging about Berlin, was how willing they were to work as a group. All the reports indicate that it was a combined assault and effort on the qualifying time. That says a lot about where these guys are and how they view each other. It is as someone said , a good time for the sport. It happened also with the steeplechase women . It is as if the athletes themselves are building an elite squad . Now maybe there is some work being done behind the scene by the high performance guys , but let's hope it filters into all disciplines to continue this raise in standard and competition . It can only be good for the sport.

rom

PVincent wrote: »

What I think was most encouraging about Berlin, was how willing they were to work as a group. All the reports indicate that it was a combined assault and effort on the qualifying time. That says a lot about where these guys are and how they view each other. It is as someone said , a good time for the sport. It happened also with the steeplechase women . It is as if the athletes themselves are building an elite squad . Now maybe there is some work being done behind the scene by the high performance guys , but let's hope it filters into all disciplines to continue this raise in standard and competition . It can only be good for the sport.

Having a situation were those under marathon mission travel and stay together in the same hotel is going to bring this out. i.e. We work together to 35K or 40K and race from there or something like that. This works for the Keyans very well. I do think this is also the reason why there was a few who were on pace but ended up 4/5 mins back in the last 7k. Having to focus on racing rather than looking at the watch worked great. If they all were not racing the same race then I don't think the result would be half as good.

The same goes for Lee who's 25,30 and 35 k splits was were she ran with someone else and worked with them.

youngrun

Great day on Sunday for Irish distance running and the four who are in selection spots. Talking to one of the lads who missed out he i understandably gutted and really felt for him in second half of race , but he will go again...Plenty of options upcoming , Amsterdam , Chicago, Frankfurt this side of Xmas- two of the ladies doing the latter two, I wonder will we see some of those who didnt make Berlin startline in the Euro ones, kenneally, bazman , Big Joe for eg ?
AFter Xmas Dubai Seville Rotterdam and London spring to mind.

Chivito550

youngrun wrote: »

Great day on Sunday for Irish distance running and the four who are in selection spots. Talking to one of the lads who missed out he i understandably gutted and really felt for him in second half of race , but he will go again...Plenty of options upcoming , Amsterdam , Chicago, Frankfurt this side of Xmas- two of the ladies doing the latter two, I wonder will we see some of those who didnt make Berlin startline in the Euro ones, kenneally, bazman , Big Joe for eg ?
AFter Xmas Dubai Seville Rotterdam and London spring to mind.

No Marathon at Euros, just half marathon. Interestingly John Travers has mentioned maybe doing it, or the 10k as a leadin to Rio (if he gets Rio 1500 standard).

youngrun

Chivito550 wrote: »

No Marathon at Euros, just half marathon. Interestingly John Travers has mentioned maybe doing it, or the 10k as a leadin to Rio (if he gets Rio 1500 standard).

Meant the upcoming Amsterdam/Frankfurt maras not 2016 euros, will any Irish men go for these, very good courses as well....

Chivito550

youngrun wrote: »

Meant the upcoming Amsterdam/Frankfurt maras not 2016 euros, will any Irish men go for these, very good courses as well....

Yeh sorry, I misread your post. Still half asleep when I read it.

Dublin9210

ultrapercy wrote: »

Yes, Mick is in the most vulnerable position and the likelihood is that pollock will still be our number 1 marathon man in Rio. He will run 2.13 in spring. Sergio told me he is going to sit on his time and cross his fingers. Rotterdam is a slightly slower race imo so Mick will need to run a quicker time under pressure on a slower course. Pressure is not something that seems to bother him tho. There are a number of others who were very close to 2.15 last Sunday Gary Thornton lost 2 mins in last 7k Tom Fitz blew a calf in his debut on course for a simular time, both have potential to pull a rabbit from the hat if fortune is kinder. Mark Kirwan ran a cracker and paced it so evenly it leads me to suspect there is more to come, 4 mins is a big ask tho. Kenneally is still our fastest marathon runner still competing and if he can sort out the injuries will be in with a big shout. What's the story with Cragg (a shoe in for nation record if he didn't aim for 2.02 every time) Eoin Callaghan will go again in spring and for him, it seems, the biscuit tin is never on a high enough shelf as to be out of reach. Gary Murray ran a 2.21 debut far removed from the potential he showed 5 years ago but class is permanent and he may recapture his form yet. It's good times in Irish marathon running and credit is due to AAI and Dublin Marathon for their Marathon Mission initiative that resurrected standards from a depressing low of the late noughties. The women's side of the equation is also looking healthy and may yet throw up some more welcome selection conundrums.

I wouldn't be 100% sure Pollock will make the team never mind be the number 1 guy.After Berlin Seaward is our current number 1.
Pollocks twitter comments after mick and Frazer ran the original time coming back to bite him.Any word on Frazer?

Chivito550

Dublin9210 wrote: »

I wouldn't be 100% sure Pollock will make the team never mind be the number 1 guy.After Berlin Seaward is our current number 1.
Pollocks twitter comments after mick and Frazer ran the original time coming back to bite him.Any word on Frazer?

What did he say on Twitter?

28064212

Chivito550 wrote: »

What did he say on Twitter?

https://twitter.com/ppmarathon/status/587209862175711234

Can't see how it's coming back to bite him

youngrun

Dublin9210 wrote: »

I wouldn't be 100% sure Pollock will make the team never mind be the number 1 guy.After Berlin Seaward is our current number 1.
Pollocks twitter comments after mick and Frazer ran the original time coming back to bite him.Any word on Frazer?

Frazer another man who could go close
Christie also though may be too far
Duncan in the ladies will give it a go I reckon