90-year-old woman faces €1,500 bill after satellite dish case

kooga

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0929/731102-satellite-dish/

homer911

first time I've heard of anyone being prosecuted..

The Cush

homer911 wrote: »

first time I've heard of anyone being prosecuted..

Her daughter was on the phone to Liveline yesterday discussing her mother's court appearance today.

ftakeith

The Cush wrote: »

Her daughter was on the phone to Liveline yesterday discussing her mother's court appearance today.

she is on liveline now again

irishgeo

do sky installers ask if you have planning before they lash the dish on the front to of your house?

muffler

irishgeo wrote: »

do sky installers ask if you have planning before they lash the dish on the front to of your house?

Oh, they've well and truly covered their asses in their T & C's.

In any event its the legal responsibility of the property owner to seek permission in these situations.

foggy_lad

irishgeo wrote: »

do sky installers ask if you have planning before they lash the dish on the front to of your house?

AFAIK they are not allowed to put a dish on the front of your house, it is in their contract with sky and sky will not pay the company if they found out.

munchkin_utd

I dont get what the problem is.

If she was let away with a sat dish and just ignore whatever planning laws or rental contracts she has, then automatically anyone in the city should rightly expect to be allowed to do as they wish. So its right she was taken to task and made take down the dish.

She may be 90, but she doesnt have a special pass to break the law or avoid the conequences.

lertsnim

Being 90 isn't a free pass to break by laws no matter how stupid they are. People are offering to pay the fine in any case.

beyondbelief67

foggy_lad wrote: »

AFAIK they are not allowed to put a dish on the front of your house, it is in their contract with sky and sky will not pay the company if they found out.

They put a dish on front of mine only last month ? And my neighbours is on front of theirs too ?

Kristopherus

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I dont get what the problem is.

If she was let away with a sat dish and just ignore whatever planning laws or rental contracts she has, then automatically anyone in the city should rightly expect to be allowed to do as they wish. So its right she was taken to task and made take down the dish.

She may be 90, but she doesnt have a special pass to break the law or avoid the conequences.

IIRC from what the daughter said on Liveline yesterday, there are lots of the neighbouring houses decorated by a dish on the front. My beef would be with the Council minions who pursued a woman of that age, and then, 2 months after the dish was taken down, had the gall to go looking for their costs. :mad:

Agent Smith

My old place had 3 dishes on the front of it....

Gerry Wicklow

There are thousands of places in Dublin and elsewhere with dishes on the front. As Agent Smith says above, a good few have several dishes.

twinklerunner

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

There are thousands of places in Dublin and elsewhere with dishes on the front. As Agent Smith says above, a good few have several dishes.

I'm sure that the Council are not being proactive about this .. a neighbour must have complained to them.

irishgeo

Agent Smith wrote: »

My old place had 3 dishes on the front of it....

You need planning for one more than one dish regardless of where its going

obezyana

Iv seen some apartment complexes down in Waterford with dishes all over the place, wonder will the occupiers ever get done for it. There is one apartment block in Ferrybank with lots of dishes attached to the side railings with cables all over the place. There is a communal dish but it does not face the way many of the different occupiers want so they all lash up their own. It looks dreadful.

ThisRegard

Kristopherus wrote: »

IIRC from what the daughter said on Liveline yesterday, there are lots of the neighbouring houses decorated by a dish on the front. My beef would be with the Council minions who pursued a woman of that age, and then, 2 months after the dish was taken down, had the gall to go looking for their costs. :mad:

Being 90 gets you a pass now does it ? She had two letters, why didn't she act on them (her excuse was that she didn't understand them)? If she did, there would have been no costs to the council, i.e. people living within that council paying their charges.

Someone had complained to the council, they had to act. And it was said somewhere that she wasn't the only one, others were too. But presumably the others acted on the notice given.

muffler

irishgeo wrote: »

You need planning for one more than one dish regardless of where its going

Correct. If there's more than one dish then planning permission is required regardless of where the dishes are located on the house.

However if it's a single dish on the front wall PP is still required although a single dish up to 1 metre in diameter can be fitted to the side or rear of the house without permission.

selous

But in an estate where management fees the council can do nothing, it's up to the Mgt Co to do the enforcing, even though it's in T's&C's of buying the place.

muffler

selous wrote: »

But in an estate where management fees the council can do nothing, it's up to the Mgt Co to do the enforcing, even though it's in T's&C's of buying the place.

The council can do plenty should they decide to go down the enforcement route.

dublinman1990

Does Ireland not comply with current EEC laws governing Satellite dishes at people's homes? Does the EEC laws state that Satellites dishes can be fitted without PP regardless of it's location on an homeowner's property?

I was frankly astounded that a 90 year old woman would be subjected to be unlawful from the EEC to the Irish courts on the grounds that could maybe be outdated under our current planning laws.

I thought that this case was a laughable joke when I read it from the internet. It turns out I was somehow wrong. A blindly stupid case altogether.

irishgeo

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Does Ireland not comply with current EEC laws governing Satellite dishes at people's homes? Does the EEC laws state that Satellites dishes can be fitted without PP regardless of it's location on an homeowner's property?

I was frankly astounded that a 90 year old woman would be subjected to be unlawful from the EEC to the Irish courts on the grounds that could maybe be outdated under our current planning laws.

I thought that this case was a laughable joke when I read it from the internet. It turns out I was somehow wrong. A blindly stupid case altogether.

the EU law doesnt give you carte blanche to lash up a dish anywhere you want as explained here. http://www.satandpcguy.com/Site/europe_television_laws_satellite_tv_costa_blanca_spain.php

she was brought to court for ignoring the notice to remove the dish. if she done that she have saved herself the hassle.

obezyana

It still seems silly to be brought to court over that when there are thousands of homes with dishes attached to the front with nothing seemingly being done about them. It is getting out of control in apartment blocks and that is where the enforcement needs to be carried out.

adox

Mines been on the front of the house for 15 years. Remember the installers at the time wouldn't put it anywhere else without being paid extra cash for doing it.

mikeym

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0929/731102-satellite-dish/

The Taoiseach has said that a measure of "common sense" should have been used after a 90-year-old woman was brought to court after she erected a satellite dish outside her home, in breach of planning laws.

dublinman1990

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Does Ireland not comply with current EEC laws governing Satellite dishes at people's homes? Does the EEC laws state that Satellites dishes can be fitted without PP regardless of it's location on an homeowner's property?

I was frankly astounded that a 90 year old woman would be subjected to be unlawful from the EEC to the Irish courts on the grounds that could maybe be outdated under our current planning laws.

I thought that this case was a laughable joke when I read it from the internet. It turns out I was somehow wrong. A blindly stupid case altogether.

I believe that she thought so too, which was why she ignored the letters. A perfect cast of the Law being an ass.

The Cush

obezyana wrote: »

It still seems silly to be brought to court over that when there are thousands of homes with dishes attached to the front with nothing seemingly being done about them. It is getting out of control in apartment blocks and that is where the enforcement needs to be carried out.

In this case a complaint was made and 3 house in the area received a letter, the family has an FOI request in to find out who made the complaint according to Liveline yesterday.

The councils, it appears, will only act if a complaint is made.

RoyalMarine

I worked as a satellite installer a few years back. We were told nothing of any law in putting them on front of houses. We were simply told put them where ever the best signal is, and get the job done and move on to the next one.

I worked for a company in cork, who were contracted by Sierra communications.

Several times a month, Sierra would visit the site to do a spot check on our safety on site, and never once said we can't do a front install.

obezyana

adox wrote: »

Mines been on the front of the house for 15 years. Remember the installers at the time wouldn't put it anywhere else without being paid extra cash for doing it.

Yep this is part of the problem as some installers just want to stick in the most convenient place for themselves. Also attaching them to chimney stacks seems to be a favourite thing aswell.

irishgeo

obezyana wrote: »

Yep this is part of the problem as some installers just want to stick in the most convenient place for themselves. Also attaching them to chimney stacks seems to be a favourite thing aswell.

sky dont allow that anymore, it cant go above 1st floor level now. After a few installers fell from roofs. I heard this from a installer himself. Also installer not allowed into the attic either.

obezyana

The Cush wrote: »

In this case a complaint was made and 3 house in the area received a letter, the family has an FOI request in to find out who made the complaint according to Liveline yesterday.

The councils, it appears, will only act if a complaint is made.

I know the councils have to act on this when requested to do so and that woman should of acted in a more suitable time frame but what about the thousands of homes etc out there who have dishes out front. If a law is being broken where it is so obvious then why do they need somebody to actually make a complaint before they act? Im not saying I agree with the law on this but it seems a bit silly to only act if asked. Not many people or even installers have a clue about the law in the first place and maybe this type of thing shows the need for the industry to be regulated.

obezyana

irishgeo wrote: »

sky dont allow that anymore, it cant go above 1st floor level now. After a few installers fell from roofs. I heard this from a installer himself. Also installer not allowed into the attic either.

Yeah it is getting silly now with Sky. Next they wont even allow them handle their power drills in case they do damage. They will have to do it all by hand.

Gerry Wicklow

No one is above the law but you can't help but think if only the council inspector had taken the time to talk to the woman and explain things rather than sending a letter probably written in legal mumbo jumbo. As always with situations like this the only winners are the lawyers

irishgeo

obezyana wrote: »

Yeah it is getting silly now with Sky. Next they wont even allow them handle their power drills in case they do damage. They will have to do it all by hand.

the newest thing now is the first thing the installer has to do is drill a hole in your wall so he can secure his ladder to the wall.:D

obezyana

irishgeo wrote: »

the newest thing now is the first thing the installer has to do is drill a hole in your wall so he can secure his ladder to the wall.:D

Yeah it is the done thing alright. I was actually sorting my brothers dish out last week and the tie off was still in the wall from when the previous owner had Sky installed. Im not so sure id like one of those left sticking out from my wall from when a dish was put up.

selous

muffler wrote: »

The council can do plenty should they decide to go down the enforcement route.

Do nothing in my place only "advise your management agent/company" and that's for everything,

muffler

The Cush wrote: »

In this case a complaint was made and 3 house in the area received a letter, the family has an FOI request in to find out who made the complaint according to Liveline yesterday.

Im afraid not. The county manager (or CEO as they are now known) has the right to withhold any and all information he considers that could lead to (paraphrasing here) "a breach of the peace". I know of a few FOI applications like this and all were refused.

The Cush wrote: »

The councils, it appears, will only act if a complaint is made.

In the case of satellite dishes that would be the case generally. It's one type of unauthorized development they don't proactively seek out.

muffler

selous wrote: »

Do nothing in my place only "advise your management agent/company" and that's for everything,

I thought we were talking about satellite dishes here?

If anyone makes a complaint to the enforcement section of the local planning dept that there is an unauthorized dish on a building an inspection is carried out to determine if it requires planning permission or not and if it does the legal owner is identified and then contacted.

ThisRegard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I believe that she thought so too, which was why she ignored the letters. A perfect cast of the Law being an ass.

So what defines what a council does and does not ignore? If the complaint was made against the home owner who happened to be 30 who ignored the letters, would it be acceptable to seek costs from that person?

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

No one is above the law but you can't help but think if only the council inspector had taken the time to talk to the woman and explain things rather than sending a letter probably written in legal mumbo jumbo. As always with situations like this the only winners are the lawyers

Should councils first do an age check, or even an IQ one, of the owner of every property they intend to send letters to? The one has a good few children.

Nichard Dixon

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

There are thousands of places in Dublin and elsewhere with dishes on the front. As Agent Smith says above, a good few have several dishes.

These people may be little bit concerned today, which may have been the point!

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

No one is above the law but you can't help but think if only the council inspector had taken the time to talk to the woman and explain things rather than sending a letter probably written in legal mumbo jumbo. As always with situations like this the only winners are the lawyers

There is an element of truth to this. You need a "take the fecking thing down, end of story"

STB.

There is more to this than meets the eye.

Pursuing someone for not taking down a sky satellite dish is quite severe.

Was it the county manager himself that was passing this road by every day ?

It would be difficult for an enforcement officer within the council to sell this to their legal department (given the circumstances) when there are very serious and more obvious and flagrant breaches of planning legislation not being pursued every day of the week.

In this case it moved very swiftly from an enforcement notice in February for a 60cm Sky Dish to the courts.... I wonder why ?

I am talking of course of those who build something and then apply for retention and get refused and then re-apply for retention and get refused and the..... you get the idea. Meanwhile the enforcement section of a county council does nothing. This is widespread throughout the country.

ThisRegard

In your example I suppose there's some sort of interaction with the council, in this case the letters were ignored until it was too late.

And by all accounts it was as a neighbour who complained, what can the council do other than follow it up?

newacc2015

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

No one is above the law but you can't help but think if only the council inspector had taken the time to talk to the woman and explain things rather than sending a letter probably written in legal mumbo jumbo. As always with situations like this the only winners are the lawyers

They have extremely limited resources. Most planning enforcement is done at a computer using google maps and google earth. The letter would have clearly stated her planning violation and want to do to solve the solution. I imagine their was a phone number for DCC on it. They can call around to all of their planning complaints, where they probably would endure abuse and deal with a handful of their cases. Or they can deal with all of their efficiently and quickly from an office.

Would you accept the argument in court from someone not paying their TV license, as they couldnt understand the legal jargon in the letter. Also someone didnt come out to explain the letter for them? No as if you cant understand someone in 2015 pick up the phone and ask someone to clarify your issue

decor58

A 90 year person should not have been put through that ordeal, I am not familiar with the details of the case, but as I understand it dishes up to a certain size are exempt. I have seen a number of dishes that are extremely big, they could even be dangerous.

ThisRegard

decor58 wrote: »

A 90 year person should not have been put through that ordeal, I am not familiar with the details of the case, but as I understand it dishes up to a certain size are exempt. I have seen a number of dishes that are extremely big, they could even be dangerous.

Not being smart but you should familiarise yourself with it first.

obezyana

decor58 wrote: »

A 90 year person should not have been put through that ordeal, I am not familiar with the details of the case, but as I understand it dishes up to a certain size are exempt. I have seen a number of dishes that are extremely big, they could even be dangerous.

Dishes cannot be placed on the front of a house without planning.

They cannot be higher than the highest point of the roof.

Planning is needed for any dish bigger than 1 meter in diameter.

Aerials cannot be any higher than 6 meters from the roof of the house.

Anymore than one dish needs planning permission.

I would bet not many installers know any of this. And your right about bigger dishes possibly being dangerous. With that being said it is not enforced all that much so im not surprised most people don't know much about it.

Grab All Association

So having more than one dish installed needs permission?

There are a number of households in rural Ireland with both a standard satellite dish and a satellite broadband dish fixed to the building.

muffler

Grab All Association wrote: »

So having more than one dish installed needs permission?

Yes.

There's a handy little leaflet that can be viewed and/or downloaded here on the DoEHLG website. Q12 covers the situation regarding aerials and dishes.

The actual legal document setting out the planning exemptions can be viewed here. Satellite dishes fall under Class 4

um7y1h83ge06nx

Grab All Association wrote: »

So having more than one dish installed needs permission?

There are a number of households in rural Ireland with both a standard satellite dish and a satellite broadband dish fixed to the building.

Very true, my house and many others in our area of Limerick (Murroe) have the satellite/MMDS dishes.

mamax

obezyana wrote: »

Dishes cannot be placed on the front of a house without planning.

They cannot be higher than the highest point of the roof.

Planning is needed for any dish bigger than 1 meter in diameter.

Aerials cannot be any higher than 6 meters from the roof of the house.

Anymore than one dish needs planning permission.

I would bet not many installers know any of this. And your right about bigger dishes possibly being dangerous. With that being said it is not enforced all that much so im not surprised most people don't know much about it.

I have 3 x sky dishes and a 1.2m dish, all to the rear of my property and none over 4m high
I don't have the required planning permission and they can't be seen from public nor can my neighbours see them
Obviously I won't be rushing out today to apply for planning permission !

But to get back on topic those idiots should have some cop on taking a 90 year old woman to court, Im not suggesting they should have overlooked it but a bit of common sense really would have gone a long way here, it's all a bit Irish aint it :eek:

irelandrover

mamax wrote: »

I have 3 x sky dishes and a 1.2m dish, all to the rear of my property and none over 4m high
I don't have the required planning permission and they can't be seen from public nor can my neighbours see them
Obviously I won't be rushing out today to apply for planning permission !

But to get back on topic those idiots should have some cop on taking a 90 year old woman to court, Im not suggesting they should have overlooked it but a bit of common sense really would have gone a long way here, it's all a bit Irish aint it :eek:

What common sense actually?

They send a letter in February, got no response and the dish was removed.
Sent another letter and and the dish had to be removed by the end of June, gave three weeks extra before proceeding. Finally the dish was removed by the end of July. Looks to me like tey were quite fair in their dealings.