Can Ireland learn from New Zealand?

pedro7

Hi all, I'm not sure if this is the best forum for this but here goes.

This might get a bit long and seem like a rant but it’s not! There’s a point at the end!
I moved to New Zealand for work about 3 years ago now. I love my work here and the out-doorsie lifestyle New Zealand weather allows me to have. BUT, I always have a lingering feeling that I wish to move home at some point. I miss the friends, family, banter and general friendliness of living in Ireland. Sometime I think I even miss the rain!
When the mood takes us, my partner and I get to looking at the practicalities of it. This brings me to the reason I’m posting here. New Zealand is very similar to Ireland on numerous levels. The population is about the same size, it’s an export driven economy, based around agriculture, tech and services. The wages for people are about the same as Ireland. It’s got some social issues similar to Ireland. The GDP of both countries is also similar.
The Export value of New Zealand however is about 39Bill USD (2013) while Irelands is 89Bill USD (2014). This is where I get confused and where my ambitions to move home someday, frustratingly fall over. Ireland seems to harvest an awful lot more tax from people than New Zealand even though it is exporting a lot more goods and services. But delivers little in return.
If we just look at income tax rates – on a salary of e35000 or approx. 62000NZD – In Ireland the effective tax rate is about 20% NZ is about 22% so pretty similar there.
But if we look at the day to day costs of living in most places it’s considerably cheaper here in New Zealand.
Petrol here costs the equivalent of e1.20/L for 95 or 1.09/L for 91 (why can’t we get 91 in Ireland??) Diesel is about e0.70/L!!!! I’m not sure what it’s at home but when I visited last summer it was a LOT more.
VAT in Ireland is about what 23% in NZ GST(VAT) is 15%
Motor tax is very expensive in Ireland also by comparison, any car in NZ costs about 250NZD per year. If you have a diesel you pay a fixed rate per KM but is similar to petrol cars
New cars in New Zealand are cheap also, a new Corolla costs $31050 incl tax about e17500. In Ireland the same car costs e21000.
Electronics I’ve also found to be cheaper here.
Insurance is massively cheaper here. Car insurance for 2 people in late 20s on a 98 Nissan Almera 1.5 is about $300 back in Ireland I was paying e600 for almost the same car. They have a system here called ACC which is run by the government that covers 3rd party + personal injury insurance for all activities, from car accidents to sports injuries. It’s taken like a tax from all insurance, incomes and profits. (it’s in my income tax calc above).
For the tax NZ take they seem to do a pretty good job of it. Hospitals and medical services are excellent, in good locations and never overcrowded and no really stupid waiting lists. The private system is much like Ireland but less expensive and private medical insurances is a lot cheaper. Before I left Ireland my health insurance was e1400 for 1 year, I was a fit and active 25 year old then. Mine and my partners insurance here is $850 around e500 for the 2 of us.
Roads are well maintained. Police are numerous and crime is low. All similar to Ireland but at a lower cost to the average Joe.
It always frustrates me to think of how great Ireland is and how great it could be given the tax being collected. So my question is am I missing something here? Why does Ireland collect so much tax? But deliver relatively little for it by comparison? Does the government look to countries like New Zealand who are doing some things better and think “we should try that”?

One possibility I wondered about is NZ generates around 80% of its power through renewable's – it’s lucky to have large deep unpopulated valleys to flood for hydro, and volcanic activity to use for geothermal power generation. Does this massive saving contribute to the others? It’s also got some natural resources, lots of timber, iron mines and coal mines. They have some gas fields similar to Ireland's.
I’m far from being even a novice on economics so if I’m missing something blindingly obvious…..
What do you guys think? Has anyone found this in other countries? Is there a simple reason Ireland costs more? I don’t think they have quite the same social welfare system Ireland has. Its almost unheard of to be on unemployment for life here. I don’t know if that’s because its lows or other social factors.

BoJack Horseman

I love NZ, but I think you do Ireland a disservce.

Both countries extract a similar level of tax from their economies (mid 30's percentile of GDP).

I'm sure both can learn lessons....

But to note:
You can't "learn lessons" about natural resources.
The lottery of geology gave Ireland little, can't do anything about that.

We have more paved roads to upkeep (per capita the most in Europe).

The value of exports & "what we get" is a misnomer.. Most is sold into the EFTA so there is no scope for levies/duties to the government.....

I know that currencies fluctuate, but in absolute terms,Ireland spends more on S/W, health & education..

Insurance costs because claims cost, because people claim dismemberment when they suffer a scratch....

Our fuel costs are middling for a western European country.... And Kiwi diesel would drive our engines nuts!

Also, our energy/power generation policy is NIMBY determined.... so not a fair comparison.

Overall, there is a lot more similar than stark lessons.

Ireland is a wealthier state, in a smaller also peripheral land with fewer resources.... What lessons can NZ learn from Ireland?

andrew

Is there any general data to confirm what you're experiencing on the ground? I had a quick look and it does look like the personal tax burden is low in some senses, but not sure if that's true overall. What about taxes on goods/services in general? What about taxes on business.

Also, I'd be wary of very subjective comparions of things like the efficiency of the Health system, or infrastructure or crime. Ireland tends to perform just as well as New Zealand in most aggregate studies which judge development etc. So i'm not sure whether the subjective difference you note actually exists.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

New Zealand does not have a cheap standard of living. Sure petrol is cheap, as is insurance but you're paying 3 or 4 grand for a second hand car that costs 1 grand in Ireland.

Groceries are very very expensive. A small bag of groceries costing 15-20 euros in Ireland would be near 50 dollars in NZ.

ACC is a great system however. NZ does so many things right I totally agree with you and Ireland can learn a LOT from them but you may be wearing rose tinted glasses when looking at some of those things op.

Godge

Big difference is in social welfare.

Ireland's system is far more generous than New Zealand's.

The minimum wage in New Zealand is also lower, meaning services like fast food etc. can be provided at cheaper costs.

Despite all the bellyaching from the taking classes in Ireland, there is no doubt that the social supports here are among the best in the world. That means we have less money to spend on other areas.

Cookie_Monster

The Honey Monster wrote: »

New Zealand does not have a cheap standard of living. Sure petrol is cheap, as is insurance but you're paying 3 or 4 grand for a second hand car that costs 1 grand in Ireland.

but you get a car that has actually been maintained properly and works, with a decent engine too. Not some heap of crap serviced once a year to the cheapest possible standard. Cars may be more expensive but they are far better value.

Groceries are very very expensive. A small bag of groceries costing 15-20 euros in Ireland would be near 50 dollars in NZ.

not that bad, a bit worse than Irl for sure but it's not terrible.
What is insanely expensive is clothing and furniture

ACC is a great system however. NZ does so many things right I totally agree with you and Ireland can learn a LOT from them but you may be wearing rose tinted glasses when looking at some of those things op.

NZ does loads of little things right or well that you don't even think about them, go back to Irl and you suddenly notice all the thing done in a stupid / lazy / corrupt / outdated manner.

snubbleste

"What lessons can NZ learn from Ireland?"
Bingo.

rain_soaked

snubbleste wrote: »

"What lessons can NZ learn from Ireland?"
Bingo.

new zealand does pretty well considering how unbeleviably isolated it is , ireland is a wealthier country but it would want to be , considering our geographical possition beside the second most important economic zone in the world

new zealand is a world leader in dairying , it produces as much milk as nearly all of europe , wages are a good bit lower than in ireland but why would major corporations chose new zealand over ireland when its three hours on a plane from a relatively small market like australia and nowhere close to anywhere else

thread is a little hard on new zealand , ive worked in new zealand , i think the alledged similarities between the two countries are wildly exaggerated

4068ac1elhodqr

Populations are very very similar but Ireland has +20% circa greater GDP.

NZ also has a much larger land/sea mass, thus greater natural resources coupled with a very fertile climate/environment.
NZ certainly has some serious issues with crime and gang culture, Maori ethnicity accounts for 40-60% of the prison population and convictions. Not sure how accurate, but read it has the 2nd largest (per/pop) prison population in the Western world.

Deserves credit for great people, natural beauty and prospering in a fairly remote part of the planet.
They should focus more on servicing the GMT+12 European (downtime) offshore services market.
Picking up Europe's 6pm+ workload, and delivering it back ready for the 9am morning handover.

Metroboulot

Ireland's not only close to other markets, but it's fully integrated into the EU which means in reality Ireland has 100% open access and is fully part of the world's largest economy, the EU with 503 million people.

maninasia

Cade Ashy Sickness wrote: »

Populations are very very similar but Ireland has +20% circa greater GDP.

NZ also has a much larger land/sea mass, thus greater natural resources coupled with a very fertile climate/environment.
NZ certainly has some serious issues with crime and gang culture, Maori ethnicity accounts for 40-60% of the prison population and convictions. Not sure how accurate, but read it has the 2nd largest (per/pop) prison population in the Western world.

Deserves credit for great people, natural beauty and prospering in a fairly remote part of the planet.
They should focus more on servicing the GMT+12 European (downtime) offshore services market.
Picking up Europe's 6pm+ workload, and delivering it back ready for the 9am morning handover.

Philippines does that better and cheaper. New Zealand is getting a lot of immigrant cash investment and does well marketing it's 'green and clean' products into Asia. They have issues with property affordability as well though.

munchkin_utd

Godge wrote: »

Big difference is in social welfare.

Ireland's system is far more generous than New Zealand's.
<snip>

Despite all the bellyaching from the taking classes in Ireland, there is no doubt that the social supports here are among the best in the world. That means we have less money to spend on other areas.

I still have to hear of a country with better social welfare system than Ireland.

In Germany (allegedy great) you get half the amount as in Ireland on long term assisitance, and in the Scandanavian countries its similar.

If they are the benchmark high payers, then its some job that Ireland pays double the amount to sit on your arse till the end of your days

Metroboulot

The biggest issues I find in Ireland are things like because of a total lack of universal health cover, and means testing, there are various poverty traps where you're actually potentially better off on the dole, which is ridiculous.

For example, if you're on a low income and you've a long term illness, in most countries you'd get support services automatically via social protection / health and still be able to work.

Here, they means test people and they're cut off their medical card if they go beyond a magic number. So, there are a lot of people avoiding increasing their incomes / unemployed for reasons like this.

BoJack Horseman

Metroboulot wrote: »

The biggest issues I find in Ireland are things like because of a total lack of universal health cover, and means testing, there are various poverty traps where you're actually potentially better off on the dole, which is ridiculous.

For example, if you're on a low income and you've a long term illness, in most countries you'd get support services automatically via social protection / health and still be able to work.

Here, they means test people and they're cut off their medical card if they go beyond a magic number. So, there are a lot of people avoiding increasing their incomes / unemployed for reasons like this.

People with LTI can apply for a discretionary medical card where there is no means test.

kazamo

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I still have to hear of a country with better social welfare system than Ireland.

In Germany (allegedy great) you get half the amount as in Ireland on long term assisitance, and in the Scandanavian countries its similar.

If they are the benchmark high payers, then its some job that Ireland pays double the amount to sit on your arse till the end of your days

A better social welfare system is one where you get 60-70% of your previous employment income and is guaranteed for 12-24 months.
It exists in Germany, France, Netherlands.

That is a much better system than in Ireland.
However the downside to that would have been during the years 2008-2012 the social welfare payments would have been a lot higher.
Someone earning 50k and losing their job would cost a lot more under any pay related system than the 9,776 they get here per anum, and means tested after 6-9 months.

So its swings and roundabouts, the people who subsidised the layabouts the most were the ones paying sizable taxes in the last decade but got flat rated to 9776 regardless of contributions.

We short changed people in 08-12 in social welfare, so not a great system really.

realitykeeper

In Ireland, it has become politically popular in recent years to commission reports for just about everything that involves making a decision. This enables politicians to avoid or postpone potentially unpopular choices and when the report is complete they can say it is no longer valid because circumstances have changed.
My own view is that any government adviser who suggests that a report be commissioned is the wrong person for the job. An expert adviser would know the right course of action.

glacial_pace71

realitykeeper wrote: »

In Ireland, it has become politically popular in recent years to commission reports for just about everything that involves making a decision. This enables politicians to avoid or postpone potentially unpopular choices and when the report is complete they can say it is no longer valid because circumstances have changed.
My own view is that any government adviser who suggests that a report be commissioned is the wrong person for the job. An expert adviser would know the right course of action.

A few years ago there was an attempt at introducing a requirement for conducting a Regulatory Impact Analysis (RIA) prior to deciding whether or not to legislate. Politicians indulged it for a (short) while but pretty soon any civil servant who attempted to make a reasonable range of recommendations was on the other end of the phone to a whingy, blubbering, threatening adviser or programme manager - the "... but you can't say that ... it's off the table ..." instruction became a refrain. The old Mike Tyson cliché comes to mind "Uh, yeah, everyone has a 'plan' - until they get punched in the mouth". So RIA was 'flawed' and the political discretion to have a working group, a review committee, and implementation taskforce etc were retained as part of the decision-making process for avoiding the making of a decision, or to have the traditional non-decision.

I'm not saying that the civil service was good at handling complex governance issues all that well, (there's still excessive deference to the Attorney General's advisory counsel, long before you reach the parliamentary counsel for drafting regulations or legislation), but for all the condescending or patronising attitudes of Humphrey-knows-best there was still some long-term commitment to Ireland's best interests, i.e. beyond one electoral cycle, which is the yardstick for so many politicians and their advisers.

New Zealand seems to allow for greater institutional independence from the government of the day, but they've still some curious over-hangs, e.g. although appeals to the Privy Council from the legitimate decisions of their own judiciary and appellate processes were scrapped, the legacy cases continued up until this year:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teina_Pora
No matter how we grumble about our own courts I still think we'd baulk at the prospect of a committee of privy counsellors (some senile retired judges) and lords of appeal in London having the authority to overturn a ruling.

Icepick

But can you not work a day in your life and live comfortably in NZ?

Mehaffey1

Very good points touched on here.
Groceries are extremely more expensive compared to Ireland or UK. Motoring is similarly expensive in both.

However New Zealand are about to have the end of their own little Celtic Tiger with the Auckland housing market. Then there's always the chance of even a moderate earthquake wrecking a decent chunk of Christchurch or Wellington.

Also, if Fonterra or the World Dairy Trade crashes then we'll be in the brown stuff not just at my job on a dairy farm but literally too. On the meaty side of farming half of Silver Fern Farms, NZ's biggest beef/lamb processor has been approved for sale to a Chinese business group.

NZ is certainly not always greener as the almost certain devastating drought is about to hit.

nice_guy80

NZ will be owned by the Chinese in a few years

Cookie_Monster

Mehaffey1 wrote: »

Motoring is similarly expensive in both.
.

It's vastly cheaper in NZ

Fuel is cheaper (1.19 equiv here in New Plymouth and this is one of the more expensive areas of the country.)
Servicing is cheaper
Motor Tax is hugely cheaper (I just paid 88 eur to insure a 3l as opposed to 1800 in Ireland)
Insurance is hugely cheaper (and not compulsory)

maninasia

Look at Numbeo.com for a better idea of how they compare.

Dublin vs Auckland

You would need around 6,626.45NZ$ (3,974.88€) in Auckland to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 4,400.00€ in Dublin (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Consumer Prices Including Rent Index. This comparison assumes net earnings (after income tax).

Indices Difference Info
Consumer Prices in Auckland are 3.07% lower than in Dublin
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Auckland are 9.66% lower than in Dublin
Rent Prices in Auckland are 22.10% lower than in Dublin
Restaurant Prices in Auckland are 20.61% lower than in Dublin
Groceries Prices in Auckland are 7.68% higher than in Dublin
Local Purchasing Power in Auckland is 2.70% higher than in Dublin

There's another section for healthcare etc. Government added costs are the big one in Ireland..health, motoring, sales taxes.

femur61

Secondary school teacher earns NZ73,000 which is €43,000 https://www.teachnz.govt.nz/teaching-in-new-zealand/salaries/in
Ireland they get €60,000 https://www.teachnz.govt.nz/teaching-in-new-zealand/salaries/
Retire at 54 a lump sum and two thirds of their salary for life. It seems Ireland has some of the most generous school holidays.

In Ireland a psycahairtrist nurse retiring at 54,000 years of age will get a lump sum of nearly €200,000 and two thirds of his salary for the rest of his life.

In NZ their is a 5 year review of your performance in the PS.

Compo claims are ridiculous http://theliberal.ie/compensation-on-the-dance floor-woman-awarded-e17500-after-injuring-her-knee-in-dublin-nightclub/

Social Welfare is extremely generous.

I am just highlighting where some of our taxes go.


The person is only highlighting some f the things we daily complain about ourselves, so why are people having a go at them?

kidneyfan

femur61 wrote: »

In Ireland a psycahairtrist nurse retiring at 54,000 years of age will get a lump sum of nearly €200,000 and two thirds of his salary for the rest of his life.

Is that a typo and do you mean psychiatric nurse?
I agree that the lump sum is absurdly generous but assuming that the nurse was hired at 25 and works till he is 54,000 thats 53,975 80ths so not that generous when you think about it

Godge

femur61 wrote: »

Secondary school teacher earns NZ73,000 which is €43,000 https://www.teachnz.govt.nz/teaching-in-new-zealand/salaries/in
Ireland they get €60,000 https://www.teachnz.govt.nz/teaching-in-new-zealand/salaries/
Retire at 54 a lump sum and two thirds of their salary for life. It seems Ireland has some of the most generous school holidays.

In Ireland a psycahairtrist nurse retiring at 54,000 years of age will get a lump sum of nearly €200,000 and two thirds of his salary for the rest of his life.

In NZ their is a 5 year review of your performance in the PS.

Compo claims are ridiculous http://theliberal.ie/compensation-on-the-dance floor-woman-awarded-e17500-after-injuring-her-knee-in-dublin-nightclub/

Social Welfare is extremely generous.

I am just highlighting where some of our taxes go.


The person is only highlighting some f the things we daily complain about ourselves, so why are people having a go at them?

You are wrong about the pensions.

(1) No public service pension is greater than half salary.

(2) Teachers cannot retire at 54 on full pension.

iamironman87

Always find these comparisons very interesting.

kidneyfan

New Zealanders in general have a good work ethic and sense of fairness. In Ireland many people try to cheat the system and many people have a sneaking regard for crooks who get away with it.

femur61

femur61 wrote: »

Secondary school teacher earns NZ73,000 which is €43,000 https://www.teachnz.govt.nz/teaching-in-new-zealand/salaries/in
Ireland they get €60,000 https://www.teachnz.govt.nz/teaching-in-new-zealand/salaries/
Retire at 54 a lump sum and two thirds of their salary for life. It seems Ireland has some of the most generous school holidays.

In Ireland a psycahairtrist nurse retiring at 54,000 years of age will get a lump sum of nearly €200,000 and two thirds of his salary for the rest of his life.

In NZ their is a 5 year review of your performance in the PS.

Compo claims are ridiculous http://theliberal.ie/compensation-on-the-dance floor-woman-awarded-e17500-after-injuring-her-knee-in-dublin-nightclub/

Social Welfare is extremely generous.

I am just highlighting where some of our taxes go.


The person is only highlighting some f the things we daily complain about ourselves, so why are people having a go at them?

Sorry about the typos, I didn't meant to send it.

I meant psychiatric nurse retiring at 54 years of age. I just don't understand why they get a lump sum, or why anyone in the PS gets one. What is the logic? They get paid weekly like everyone else, and get a gold plated pension. I pay my own pension and I don't get a lump sum when I leave my job.

We have lots of people living now into their 90's so a person retiring in their 50's they will receive a pension longer than the years they worked.

femur61

Godge wrote: »

You are wrong about the pensions.

(1) No public service pension is greater than half salary.

(2) Teachers cannot retire at 54 on full pension.

Fair enough, it may not be a full pension, but the majority of people cannot retire till 65-67. So in theory if they live into their 80's they will be receiving a pension longer than the years they worked.

As far as the lump sum is concerned for people in the PS, I just don't understand it.

kidneyfan

femur61 wrote: »

As far as the lump sum is concerned for people in the PS, I just don't understand it.

Fianna Fail bribed the civil service with your money. It's a scam.

Godge

femur61 wrote: »

Fair enough, it may not be a full pension, but the majority of people cannot retire till 65-67. So in theory if they live into their 80's they will be receiving a pension longer than the years they worked.

As far as the lump sum is concerned for people in the PS, I just don't understand it.

Revenue rules allow for a maximum defined benefit pension of two-thirds final salary. If a lump sum of 1.5 times final salary is paid, the pension can only be half final salary.

You were assuming civil servants got both a lump sum and two-thirds pension. That is not the case.

As for teachers, here is the agreement:


https://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Services/Retirement-Pensions/pen_pcw_voluntary_early_retirement_55_35.pdf

Teachers can get a pension at 55 but it is not the full pension as it is based on actual service and you cannot have 40 years service at 55 unless you started teaching at 15.