Choosing a school

Whispered

Hi. My boy is not yet a year but I've been advised to enroll him in a school sooner rather than later. Is that necessary?

Our nearest school is a catholic one and our boy is not baptised, we don't have any want for a religious education. Would it be a mistake to enroll him but have him sit out of religion?

Our other option would be to enroll him in a non denominational school, we have two, 15mins drive away. I prefer the idea of being able to walk to school.

Other than location and religious studies, I do not know what to look for when choosing a school so any tips on how you'd go about choosing one, out of a possible 3, would be great.

byhookorbycrook

There are no non-denom primary schools in Ireland. I presume you mean multi-d such as certain Gaelscoils or ET schools. Do you want single sex/ co-ed? Have you researched schools in your area? Most Catholic schools have children of all faiths and none .

Whispered

Catholic within 30 min walk or five min drive. Two et within 15 mins drive and a Steiner within 20 min drive. Steiner is fee paying as far as I know but if there is a huge difference in quality of the schools we would see if it's something we can stretch to. But I'm not sure what to look for. How best to decide taking everything into account.

Also wondering if I'm way too early in looking.

Moonbeam

There are only 2 Steiner schools in the country and from what i hear the waiting list is very long.
I love the idea of them though.
We put down my eldest names girl in school at 14 months and we were 13 months too late:(

Our decision was an easy one as a Gaelscoil was our 1st choice and we bought our house a 7 minute walk from it on purpose as we intended to go there,she didn't get a place so I spent the year driving 15km there and another 15 back twice a day with a small baby and a bump.
For me walking to school was a must when we made our decision.
I would not send any of my kids to a catholic single sex primary school so they were ruled out immediately.
I would rather a multi denominational school as imo religion has no place in schools but at that stage we were way to late for our local Educate Together.
We looked at the local Montessori primary school but it was too expensive to send all 4 there and it still was not a gaelscoil.

RentDayBlues

We have their names down for all primary and secondary schools in the area, if you're in Dublin or a large city/town it's a must, you'll be shocked at the waiting lists.

Most will put you on a list and advise you to apply formally probably about a year before they are due to start.

If you want ET or non catholic then sooner rather than later is best practice.

We don't have a local school as such, but will be taken into the school in the next parish, it's not my first choice!

And if money was no option I would pick the private non Catholic school!

Whispered

Moonbeam, what did you like about the Steiner?

In catholic schools, is a large part of their time spent on religion?

pooch90

30 minutes per day is what is recommended. Honestly, I just about do 20 minutes, if I have time.

uck51js9zml2yt

I've my son in an RC school and we're not Catholic.
It's not an issue for the school. We decided to keep him in RE at junior infants as opposed to taking him out which makes him very different from his classmates.
the other alternative was to let him do something else in the class. He'd be in the room anyway hearing whats going on so taking part makes no difference.
We will be monitoring what he's learning so that we can correct it as necessary.

katydid

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

? Have you researched schools in your area? Most Catholic schools have children of all faiths and none .

Who are excluded from certain parts of the school day. School should not be about exclusion.

katydid

pooch90 wrote: »

30 minutes per day is what is recommended. Honestly, I just about do 20 minutes, if I have time.

Twenty minutes is twenty minutes too much. You're doing the job of the local clergy, and collaborating in excluding children. I know you have no choice, but it's a lousy way to earn a living.

byhookorbycrook

katydid wrote: »

Who are excluded from certain parts of the school day. School should not be about exclusion.

Excluded from religion if that's what parents want.
I'm not a fan of Steiner, the
anthroposophy thing is kind of creepy.
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/07/the-insidious-pervasiveness-of-the-cult-of-rudolf-steiner.html

The_Valeyard

katydid wrote: »

Twenty minutes is twenty minutes too much. You're doing the job of the local clergy, and collaborating in excluding children. I know you have no choice, but it's a lousy way to earn a living.

Ffs.

Help the OP with the Q, not launch into your own personal bias.


OP, if possible gaeilscoil are pretty good. Ask your neighbours, word of mouth is usually pretty reliable for which school. Main concern would be class sizes.

Whispered

Katydid i do have issues with religion in schools so I totally get where you're coming from, but that's not what I intended this thread to be about.
I'm also weighing up whether the fact the rc school is local while the et isn't should be an important factor. And even how to choose between two et schools if we decide to not enroll him in the rc.

Tartanska (sorry if I misspelled I'm in mobile so can't see your name), have you thought how you will handle communion?

Thanks for the Steiner link. I've heard rumblings before about it. Will read up more.

uck51js9zml2yt

katydid wrote: »

Twenty minutes is twenty minutes too much. You're doing the job of the local clergy, and collaborating in excluding children. I know you have no choice, but it's a lousy way to earn a living.

Exclusion is one of several options.

uck51js9zml2yt

Whispered wrote: »

Katydid i do have issues with religion in schools so I totally get where you're coming from, but that's not what I intended this thread to be about.
I'm also weighing up whether the fact the rc school is local while the et isn't should be an important factor. And even how to choose between two et schools if we decide to not enroll him in the rc.

Tartanska (sorry if I misspelled I'm in mobile so can't see your name), have you thought how you will handle communion?

Thanks for the Steiner link. I've heard rumblings before about it. Will read up more.

A big factor for us was that the school is local. For us its less than 5 minutes. This means most of his class are local as well which will give him friends in the area.
Educate together would have exposed him to all religions, most of which we disagree with and we felt that was a worse option.

Communion is 3-4 years away for us and our plan at that stage is to exclude him as he will be older and understand more.
In talking to the principal, there are 10% non Catholics in the school and they are very open to their needs.
I'll be getting a look at the book next week and we can at least correct anything he will be thought contrary to our religious belief but at that level everything is basic.

As for enrolling in multiple schools. Do. It will at least give you a choice when the time comes and some may well refuse you when the time comes.

katydid

Mod snip.

katydid

still offtopic.

Whispered

See my thinking on et is that it teaches religion from a cultural rather than a "factual" perspective. Which I wouldn't have an issue with at all. But I could be wrong!

I love the idea of being able to walk him to school and home again to talk about his day on the stroll. As well as the benefits you mention. Very torn. I might enroll in multiples as you suggest.

katydid

Katydid, please take your agenda elsewhere.

uck51js9zml2yt

Whispered wrote: »

See my thinking on et is that it teaches religion from a cultural rather than a "factual" perspective. Which I wouldn't have an issue with at all. But I could be wrong!

I love the idea of being able to walk him to school and home again to talk about his day on the stroll. As well as the benefits you mention. Very torn. I might enroll in multiples as you suggest.

The ultimate responsibility for what our kids learn rests with us as parents. If we work with them outside of class on these issues we can help them understand from. Our viewpoint.
If your not involved in any local parent/ toddler groups you should.my wife found them an invaluable source of information. As I got to know so e of the familiies invo!ved in parentlink as well it helped in our decision making.

Your local parish hall probably has one and cuidiu have local parent link groups.

Whispered

katydid wrote: »

Nope. It indoctrinates the child in Roman Catholic teaching. It teaches RC doctrine as fact, teaches the child RC prayers, and prepares them, in school time, for RC sacraments.

If you don't wish this, your child has to be excluded from certain parts of the school day - exclusion is not a good thing to be starting a child's life with, in any understanding of child development or education.

I was speaking about et schools in the post you quoted. I am well aware of how rc schools work. That is not the info I came here looking for.

Insect Overlord

katydid wrote: »

You said they teach religion from a cultural rather than a factual perspective in RC schools. This is not true. I have outlined in detail what they do.

I've told you how it is. If you prefer not to know, fine. I was trying to help.

Read their posts again...

Whispered

Cairo Scarce Retiree wrote: »

The ultimate responsibility for what our kids learn rests with us as parents. If we work with them outside of class on these issues we can help them understand from. Our viewpoint.
If your not involved in any local parent/ toddler groups you should.my wife found them an invaluable source of information. As I got to know so e of the familiies invo!ved in parentlink as well it helped in our decision making.

Your local parish hall probably has one and cuidiu have local parent link groups.

Yes good idea. We do know local parents. Some of whom are sorry their child isn't in the et. But nothing to do with religion, rather the rest of the school ethos such as uniform wearing etc.

Tbh the et seems a better fit. But the drive is putting me off. Not out of laziness (30 min walk remember ) but more the fact he would be educated outside of his home town community. This may not be a big deal though?!

Whispered

katydid wrote: »

You didn't make that clear.

Read the post. Or the bit you quoted. It is clear. "..... Of et schools...."

Katy. I didn't need to clarify. It was clear in the post you quoted. You just didn't read it properly in your haste to continue to push you point.

Please allow this thread to remain on topic.

uck51js9zml2yt

Whispered wrote: »

Yes good idea. We do know local parents. Some of whom are sorry their child isn't in the et. But nothing to do with religion, rather the rest of the school ethos such as uniform wearing etc.

Tbh the et seems a better fit. But the drive is putting me off. Not out of laziness (30 min walk remember ) but more the fact he would be educated outside of his home town community. This may not be a big deal though?!

We purposely didn't choose ET due to their ethos of all religions being equal. We can handle catholicism and deal with it as necessary.
You'll be csurprised how important being local is when his friends have birthdays etc you also need to consider if he is ever sick and you need to pick him up.

But definitely,enrolled him in as many as you can to give you options.

Whispered

That's good to know. It doesn't necessarily mean he will feel different from his neighbours then by going to a school out of the town. Thanks.

katydid

MOD SNIP

chillin117

Excluding a child is really not fair on the child. You cant really pick the handiest school but ''Cherrypick'' what you do and do not want. If it's a RC school you enrol in, you know there is some Religious education beforehand so why enrol the child there ? I like your school but not your rules. Just my 2c worth.

Whispered

Cairo Scarce Retiree wrote: »

We purposely didn't choose ET due to their ethos of all religions being equal. We can handle catholicism and deal with it as necessary.
You'll be csurprised how important being local is when his friends have birthdays etc you also need to consider if he is ever sick and you need to pick him up.

But definitely,enrolled him in as many as you can to give you options.

Haha all religions are equal in my eyes, in that none of them have a place in education (to put it politely). But you make a good point. One I hadn't considered. Thank you.

katydid

mod snip

Whispered

chillin117 wrote: »

Excluding a child is really not fair on the child. You cant really pick the handiest school but ''Cherrypick'' what you do and do not want. If it's a RC school you enrol in, you know there is some Religious education beforehand so why enrol the child there ? I like your school but not your rules. Just my 2c worth.

Yes this is on my mind. Fact is though to attend a different school my son would have to travel. I'll have to get a car. It will take him out of his local area. So that is why I'd consider it. Lack of choice really.

Sorry. Moving away from the religious aspect, what other things should be taken into consideration. Two et schools, equal distance away. How do you choose? At any stage do parents visit the school before enrolling?

haveringchick

Whispered wrote: »

Yes this is on my mind. Fact is though to attend a different school my son would have to travel. I'll have to get a car. It will take him out of his local area. So that is why I'd consider it. Lack of choice really.

Sorry. Moving away from the religious aspect, what other things should be taken into consideration. Two et schools, equal distance away. How do you choose? At any stage do parents visit the school before enrolling?

There's usually an open day for all schools, should be coming up soon. Keep an eye out for dates in the local papers etc
Go to as many open days as you can. Class size is the most important thing for me

Whispered

haveringchick wrote: »

There's usually an open day for all schools, should be coming up soon. Keep an eye out for dates in the local papers etc
Go to as many open days as you can. Class size is the most important thing for me

Thanks. Do you know, would most of the parents be there for young kids or kids staring next year?

Haha imagine me arriving with my baby up on my hip asking if he likes it.

chillin117

Whispered wrote: »

Yes this is on my mind. Fact is though to attend a different school my son would have to travel. I'll have to get a car. It will take him out of his local area. So that is why I'd consider it. Lack of choice really.

Sorry. Moving away from the religious aspect, what other things should be taken into consideration. Two et schools, equal distance away. How do you choose? At any stage do parents visit the school before enrolling?

I have a son gone into 6th class this year in a CBS and the Religious instruction for the last 5 years have been minimal. Children hate being different and exclusion kinda singles them out, I would be more concerned that he/she mixes well and are happy in school rather than a Parent's Religious misgiving's. The bigger picture is so more important. I wish you well.

Whispered

chillin117 wrote: »

I have a son gone into 6th class this year in a CBS and the Religious instruction for the last 5 years have been minimal. Children hate being different and exclusion kinda singles them out, I would be more concerned that he/she mixes well and are happy in school rather than a Parent's Religious misgiving's. The bigger picture is so more important. I wish you well.

Thank you, you too. It's the bigger picture I'm looking at.

Educate together seems to suit best I think.

haveringchick

Whispered wrote: »

Thanks. Do you know, would most of the parents be there for young kids or kids staring next year?

Haha imagine me arriving with my baby up on my hip asking if he likes it.

Anybody at all can go to the open day sure there'll be couples with bumps or even just a glint in his eye😗

uck51js9zml2yt

Whispered wrote: »

Haha all religions are equal in my eyes, in that none of them have a place in education (to put it politely). But you make a good point. One I hadn't considered. Thank you.

I'd be of the same opinion that religion shouldn't be taught but the system is as it is and we dewal with it righly or wrongly ( another thread !)
We made our decision as non denominational Christian who teach our children religion at home.

Class size worked for us in the local school with 12 in class as opposed to 26 in the ET due its popularity.

I saw my nieces doing other things during RE and they came home to their parents reciting the prayers their classmates learnt. It didn't kill them. One of them is now a parent and of the mind to keep her daughter in the class when the time comes.

Make a call to the schools to make an appointment. It would give you a chance to discuss your concerns with the principals.

silverharp

my kid's school has a reasonable balance they have a catholic religion class and a fluffier general religion class so the year splits for the subject. If you are raising atheist kids you can have a bit of fun with it like showing them all the debunking Noah type videos, they can then ask plenty of challenging questions in class

pooch90

Ok, with the risk of being slaughtered I'm going to throw in my own personal circumstances.

I teach in an RC school. There are no ET schools anywhere near me-I believe the closest ones is approx an hour away from where we live. The job situation for teachers is such that they more or less have no choice but to take whatever job they can get. I am in no way religious, I got married last year and had a secular ceremony. I am currently expecting our first child and that child will not be baptised.

Unless something drastic happens locally, the child will be sent to an RC school. I honestly don't mind this, whether they will be excluded from RE classes or sacraments or whatever.If they pick up the prayers from being present in the room, so be it. None of this will be reinforced at home but if they want to talk about it then we will approach that as and when it happens.

As a parent, you are the primary educator of your child.

I would be more concerned that they be educated within the locality and that the friends they have at home are the friends they can have at school, local clubs etc.

That one thing that I think parents should be aware of is the new RE programme being rolled out in schools-Grow In Love. It is a much more (for want of a better word) aggressive programme than Alive-O was, with workbooks being sent home for collaborative learning with the parent and there is now a push that RE be seen as a 'core' subject than a peripheral one.

As to what to look out for when choosing a school. I would be definitely go to the school, assess the physical nature of the building (lots of our classrooms are there since the year dot and have mould/leaks etc). I would check the class sizes, though in 4 years time this may have changed drastically-in our school we always had multi-grade but for the past number of years we are getting 30 infants each year. Get copies of policies where possible. Mostly, I would try to meet with the principal and gauge their attitude to discipline, health and safety etc.

pwurple

Meet the other parents where you can. I enrolled our daughter in about 8 schools when she was one, as we simply didn't know where we were going to be living.. And wanted the chance to research them. I used various family and friends addresses.

I was personally put off the gaelscoil I had enrolled her in because of meeting some of the parents, who told me in hushed tones that I had made the right choice because none of those "foreign types" go to the gaelscoil. Thinking about my child being buddies with theirs didn't do it for me. But that can happen anywhere, and I probably haven't avoided it in the future either.

Bear in mind, no school is going to be perfect. The school we picked is a lovely school, I'm very happy with it, but there is a big emphasis on sport, and not as much on STEM or the arts, which I would personally prefer. We are their parents, so we can boost any shortcomings ourselves with some attention.

Religion didn't come in to it for us. Was interested in the class size, academic level, facilities, policy, extra curricular and social aspect of the school. You get a good feeling for a place from visiting and asking other parents at the school gate as well, and you can Read the inspection reports.

We were spoilt for choice, we were offered 5 places in the end, but I have heard that is not the case everywhere. Make double sure you qualify under the enrolment policy (live in catchment area etc).

downthemiddle

katydid wrote: »

Twenty minutes is twenty minutes too much. You're doing the job of the local clergy, and collaborating in excluding children. I know you have no choice, but it's a lousy way to earn a living.

I am proud of how I earn my living. I am fortunate to work in a wonderful school where all children are treated with respect no matter their background or creed. No child has ever been removed from class during RE despite the fact that it is one of the most diverse schools in the country. We has an ethos based on respect and welcome children from all beliefs and none. We embrace and celebrate the diverse nature of our school. It is an environment free of prejudice and is non judgemental.
It is a wonderful way to earn a living.

katydid

downthemiddle wrote: »

I am proud of how I earn my living. I am fortunate to work in a wonderful school where all children are treated with respect no matter their background or creed. No child has ever been removed from class during RE despite the fact that it is one of the most diverse schools in the country. We has an ethos based on respect and welcome children from all beliefs and none. We embrace and celebrate the diverse nature of our school. It is an environment free of prejudice and is non judgemental.
It is a wonderful way to earn a living.

If you are not teaching RC doctrine and preparing your RC pupils for the sacraments, you are not doing your job as a teacher in a RC school. If you are teaching RC doctrine and preparing your RC pupils for the sacraments, and other, non RC children, are in the class, they are being exposed to this teaching.

So saying you don't exclude them is not exactly praiseworthy, if what is happening is denominational indoctrination.

I'm not blaming you personally; you have to do your job. But participating in the indoctrination of children in beliefs they or their parents don't subscribe to, and indeed indoctrinating RC children on school time, something which should be done by the church community, is not something any teacher should be expected to do.

Teaching IS certainly a wonderful way to earn a living, but sometimes we are obliged to do things which are not so wonderful

downthemiddle

katydid wrote: »

If you are not teaching RC doctrine and preparing your RC pupils for the sacraments, you are not doing your job as a teacher in a RC school. If you are teaching RC doctrine and preparing your RC pupils for the sacraments, and other, non RC children, are in the class, they are being exposed to this teaching.

So saying you don't exclude them is not exactly praiseworthy, if what is happening is denominational indoctrination.

I'm not blaming you personally; you have to do your job. But participating in the indoctrination of children in beliefs they or their parents don't subscribe to, and indeed indoctrinating RC children on school time, something which should be done by the church community, is not something any teacher should be expected to do.

Teaching IS certainly a wonderful way to earn a living, but sometimes we are obliged to do things which are not so wonderful

The parents are appreciative of the sensitive manner in which we deal with the issue. They do not feel we are indoctrinating their children and the children don't feel excluded. They neither judge nor feel judged.
It is a pity not everyone can be as broadminded as the parents.

katydid

downthemiddle wrote: »

The parents are appreciative of the sensitive manner in which we deal with the issue. They do not feel we are indoctrinating their children and the children don't feel excluded. They neither judge nor feel judged.
It is a pity not everyone can be as broadminded as the parents.

It's nothing to do with being broadminded. It's a fact that when you teach Roman Catholic prayers, beliefs and practices you are teaching children Roman Catholic doctrine. Teaching doctrine is indoctrination.

Obviously the children who are non RC's, and who remain in the class while this indoctrination is going on are not being excluded. They are being included in the indoctrination process.

If their parents are happy with that, that's fine. But it's still indoctrination; you can't change that fact by saying that it's not a problem for the non-RC parents.

You are very lucky that none of the RC parents (and it sounds like you have quite a few) have a problem with this.

Triangle

Please keep in mind non religious or multi religious schools can be very bad too.
We've (more importantly my son) has been put through he'll with a non Catholic school.
The lack of professionalism was reminuscient of the issues from my time in school.
We've moved to a different school and so far have found them vastly superior.

The lesson we learnt was that any school can be a bad school, so make sure to talk to parents and do research before prejudging on ethos

Best of luck with the schooling!

downthemiddle

katydid wrote: »

It's nothing to do with being broadminded. It's a fact that when you teach Roman Catholic prayers, beliefs and practices you are teaching children Roman Catholic doctrine. Teaching doctrine is indoctrination.

Obviously the children who are non RC's, and who remain in the class while this indoctrination is going on are not being excluded. They are being included in the indoctrination process.

If their parents are happy with that, that's fine. But it's still indoctrination; you can't change that fact by saying that it's not a problem for the non-RC parents.

You are very lucky that none of the RC parents (and it sounds like you have quite a few) have a problem with this.

We are very lucky to have a school everyone respects each other and their beliefs. You could learn a lot from it.

Whispered

Triangle wrote: »

so make sure to talk to parents and do research before prejudging on ethos

Best of luck with the schooling!

Thank you, so besides talking to parents, what research can also be done? I'm very new to all this

katydid

downthemiddle wrote: »

We are very lucky to have a school everyone respects each other and their beliefs. You could learn a lot from it.

Believe me, I am very conscious of respecting other people's beliefs. Which is why I don't have a blind spot when it comes to recognising the fact that indoctrinating children in a religion not theirs is not respecting their beliefs. I have to say, though, I find it a bit strange that as a teacher, you don't seem to understand that what one does in teaching doctrine is indoctrination...

Anyway, the OP is well aware of these issues, and they can make up their own minds, given the different facts outlined here.

downthemiddle

Whispered wrote: »

Thank you, so besides talking to parents, what research can also be done? I'm very new to all this

Make an appointment to visit the school. Talk to the principal and ask any questions you feel are relevant. Talk to parents who already have children in the school and see what their experiences are. Most importantly choose a school where you feel your child will be happy based on the quality of teaching and learning in that school.

byhookorbycrook

Can we please stay on topic? The OP is asking about choosing a school. They have already stated that "I do have issues with religion in schools so I totally get where you're coming from, but that's not what I intended this thread to be about"

Can I refer you all to
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056377658

Don't make me use the time out chair.

downthemiddle

katydid wrote: »

Believe me, I am very conscious of respecting other people's beliefs. Which is why I don't have a blind spot when it comes to recognising the fact that indoctrinating children in a religion not theirs is not respecting their beliefs. I have to say, though, I find it a bit strange that as a teacher, you don't seem to understand that what one does in teaching doctrine is indoctrination...

Anyway, the OP is well aware of these issues, and they can make up their own minds, given the different facts outlined here.

Your arrogance in passing judgement on me and the school I work in says it all.