Assistant Principal ('A' Post) teaching hours?

ethical

What are the teaching hours for Assistant Principals,it seems to vary from school to school. Some schools have 18 hours teaching and others have 18+ hours ,indeed some have up to 22 hours in front of classes.Thanks in advance for any helpful info.

rainbowtrout

As far as I know it's 18 hours in TUI schools. In ASTI schools it can be reduced to 18 hours (or 20 etc) but at the discretion of management. Not sure why.

I know it says 18 hours on TUI website. Don't see anything on ASTI.

solerina

In an ASTI school and all A post holders do the full 22 hours with no reduction, thought the reduction was only for TUI schools.

Crazyteacher

Don't want to drag the thread off topic but what is the role of assistant principal? Are they next in line to the principal ?

Alex Meier

solerina wrote: »

In an ASTI school and all A post holders do the full 22 hours with no reduction, thought the reduction was only for TUI schools.

The rule ios 18 hours for all schools. . .Absurd that the DES would fund 4 hours per A post on the basis on what union the holder is in.

The reality is different though.

Due to cutbacks A post holders take on more hours up to 22 hours.

man_no_plan

Alex Meier wrote: »

The rule ios 18 hours for all schools. . .Absurd that the DES would fund 4 hours per A post on the basis on what union the holder is in.

Talking through your hat here I'm afraid

TheDriver

Crazyteacher wrote: »

Don't want to drag the thread off topic but what is the role of assistant principal? Are they next in line to the principal ?

Next to deputy principal but are considered middle management

Alex Meier

man_no_plan wrote: »

Talking through your hat here I'm afraid

Show me the circular which states that different members of unions get different allocation of teaching hours for A posts. . .

man_no_plan

Alex Meier wrote: »

Show me the circular which states that different members of unions get different allocation of teaching hours for A posts. . .

You should show it to me I'm not claiming it exists

rainbowtrout

Alex Meier wrote: »

Show me the circular which states that different members of unions get different allocation of teaching hours for A posts. . .

This is from the TUI website

http://www.tui.ie/welcome-to-our-website/second-level-teaching-hours.2128.html

Vocational Schools
Teachers in Vocational Schools may be required to teach up to a maximum of 22 hours.

In the case of a teacher in an Assistant Principal post of responsibility the number of class contact hours are 18 per week. The number of class contact hours of a teacher in a post of responsibility of Special Duties Teacher are in the range 21-22 hours per week. Actual teaching hours for Principals and Deputy Principals are set out in a schedule in CL 58/98.

TUI policy on travelling time is that where a wholetime teacher is asked to travel between two or more centres, the amount of time travelling, together with class contact hours must not exceed 22 hours per week.

Community & Comprehensive Schools
Teachers in Community and Comprehensive Schools may be required to teach up to 22 hours. The hours and conditions for Assistant Principal postholders, Principals and Deputy-Principals in Community and Comprehensive Schools are as for those in Vocational Schools.

Personally I don't know anyone in an A post in an ETB school that does more than 18 hours including my own school.

Alex Meier

man_no_plan wrote: »

You should show it to me I'm not claiming it exists

I don't have to produce anything as I'm claiming no such evidence exists.

If you're claiming that A post holders are allocated different teaching hours based on which union they're affiliated to then I'd like to see the circular which states this.

Alex Meier

rainbowtrout wrote: »

This is from the TUI website

. . which is fine but does not contradict what I stated earlier.

rainbowtrout

Alex Meier wrote: »

. . which is fine but does not contradict what I stated earlier.

No. But I don't know what circular it might be in. Also teachers are on here telling you that teachers in TUI schools only do 18 hours. Teachers are telling you that it can be 22 hours in ASTI schools (voluntary secondary).

Why do you have an issue with that, regardless of circulars?

man_no_plan

Alex Meier wrote: »

The rule ios 18 hours for all schools. . .Absurd that the DES would fund 4 hours per A post on the basis on what union the holder is in.

The reality is different though.

Due to cutbacks A post holders take on more hours up to 22 hours.

You are saying the rule is 18 for all schools. It isn't a rule at all.

In the etb sector the 4 hours comes from the teaching allocation of the schools, there's no special allocation.

Its a historical arrangement afaik, apparently the religious orders. Did a lot of the admin etc so the time allowance wasn't given to voluntary secondary school teachers even though the post was.

If the principal of a vol sec school gave 4 hours to 5 apost holders the school would lose 20teaching hours, almost a full post

Alex Meier

man_no_plan wrote: »

You are saying the rule is 18 for all schools. It isn't a rule at all.

In the etb sector the 4 hours comes from the teaching allocation of the schools, there's no special allocation.

Its a historical arrangement afaik, apparently the religious orders. Did a lot of the admin etc so the time allowance wasn't given to voluntary secondary school teachers even though the post was.

If the principal of a vol sec school gave 4 hours to 5 apost holders the school would lose 20teaching hours, almost a full post

So there's no circular. Right?

Just a "historical arrangement".

The time allowance is 18 hours in voluntary secondary schools (I'm in one).

Due to restraints/cutbacks this is invariably never the case as most APs are given timetables with a greater number of hours. . .which, as part of middle management, they are prepared to do.

ejak1

Alex Meier wrote: »

So there's no circular. Right?

Just a "historical arrangement".

The time allowance is 18 hours in voluntary secondary schools (I'm in one).

Due to restraints/cutbacks this is invariably never the case as most APs are given timetables with a greater number of hours. . .which, as part of middle management, they are prepared to do.

From the ASTI website, it seems that there is no entitlement to reduction of teaching hours for Post holders in voluntary schools. However, management are encouraged to reduce hours. In my voluntary school, AP post holders are doing the full 22 hours teaching.
Time for the Performance of Duties

The ASTI and the JMB continue to stress that the development of an effective in-school management system requires as an essential element the allocation of time for the performance of duties. Both the ASTI and the JMB have pursued vigorously the question of reduced teaching hours to enable post-holders to undertake the many post duties which can be undertaken most effectively during school hours when the teachers and students are present and available for consultation, etc. The Departments of Education and Finance have consistently refused to make the necessary additional staffing provision to enable schools to reduce post-holders’ class contact hours in any sector. It is in this context that the reasonableness of the burden of duties attached to a post of responsibility must be judged. It is clearly reasonable to anticipate that a greater burden of duties will be carried when the teacher has reduced hours for the purpose of carrying them out. This factor must be taken into account when assessing the burden of duties.

man_no_plan

So it's not 18 hours across the board then....

Alex Meier

man_no_plan wrote: »

So it's not 18 hours across the board then....

Trying to score points. . . You were asked to provide the circular which backed up your claim and you could not because no such circular exists.

Instead you accused me of "talking out of my hat" - An accusation that you should withdraw rather than trying to bluff.

FWIW. . In my school APs (regardless of union) were placed on 18 hours . . . Then came the cutbacks and they're on anything from 20-22 hours (with oat on 22 hours)

This happens for two reasons:

1 - There is no circular defining hours for APs.
2 - Weak unions do nothing about it.

man_no_plan

Alex Meier wrote: »

Trying to score points. . . You were asked to provide the circular which backed up your claim and you could not because no such circular exists.

Instead you accused me of "talking out of my hat" - An accusation that you should withdraw rather than trying to bluff.

FWIW. . In my school APs (regardless of union) were placed on 18 hours . . . Then came the cutbacks and they're on anything from 20-22 hours (with oat on 22 hours)

This happens for two reasons:

1 - There is no circular defining hours for APs.
2 - Weak unions do nothing about it.

I'm not interested in arguing about this.

You said that the rule was 18 hours in all schools.

That was talking out of your hat because no such rule exists and if there's no rule there's no circular.

I'm not sure about mixed union schools, I have never worked in one but I know that traditionally in the etb sector there is an hours reduction while there isn't in the voluntary sector. Its nothing to do with unions per se.

The Asti and JMB seem to have a position on it, that there should ne a reduction.

If there was an 18 hour rule in almost certain that the ASTI would enforce it. Bear in mind that all is not equal between sectors.

There are no personal days in the ETB. Would all vol secondary teachers trade this for 4 hours off for a handful of APs??

I explained how the four hours cones from the allocation. I explained that a principal in a vol sec school could do it and what the cost is.

The relevant circulars are all here http://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Services/Teacher-Allocations/Teacher-Allocations-Post-Primary.html

No mention of ap posts. There is an allowance for a prog coordinator .27, I understand that in some schools this isn't given to the teacher though! But it is in the circulars.

Probably a bit hot headed of me to say talking out of your hat. I'll withdraw it away, I'm sorry.

RH149

It doesn't depend on the union, it depends on the type of school. Every post holder on our school (Vol. secondary) does the full 22 hrs and the the school down the road (ETB) gives their APs 18 hrs. We're mostly ASTI or non union and they are TUI. But I imagine if we started jumping ship and leaving the unions or switching unions the no. of teaching hours would stay the same for all APs.

Its still very inequitable regardless.

RH149

Off topic, I know, but what do you do in an ETB school if you need a personal day....I don't mean for a wedding that you'd 'like ' to go to, I mean if you really need a day to do something?

rainbowtrout

RH149 wrote: »

Off topic, I know, but what do you do in an ETB school if you need a personal day....I don't mean for a wedding that you'd 'like ' to go to, I mean if you really need a day to do something?

In my school you tell the principal, he tells you that there are no such thing as personal days and then you go and arrange your own cover with other members of staff. :rolleyes:

man_no_plan

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In my school you tell the principal, he tells you that there are no such thing as personal days and then you go and arrange your own cover with other members of staff. :rolleyes:

We must be in the same school!!

There are no personal days but if you need to go somewhere you can get cover from colleagues obviously you wouldn't be taking a day off every week.

It's another example of the different conditions in different sectors. There was a thread here a few weeks ago about some strange payment on the payslip of Vol Secondary teachers. Whether that s in addition to the common basic scale plus allowances I don't know.

The secondary teachers will tell you, when you meet them at in-services etc., how poorly funded they are compared to the ETB's and then the ETB teachers will tell the C&C crowd that they're rolling in it. The truth is that unless you have been a principal in all three sectors you wont have much of an idea what kind of funding there is in any sector. and even at that the recent amalgamations have shown up massive disparity in how ETBs are run.

katydid

RH149 wrote: »

It doesn't depend on the union, it depends on the type of school. Every post holder on our school (Vol. secondary) does the full 22 hrs and the the school down the road (ETB) gives their APs 18 hrs. We're mostly ASTI or non union and they are TUI. But I imagine if we started jumping ship and leaving the unions or switching unions the no. of teaching hours would stay the same for all APs.

Its still very inequitable regardless.

Well it depends on the union in that the TUI negotiated it for their members. Of course, if someone is not a union member and works in an ETB school/college, they will still benefit. Such is life...

Noccy_Mondy

Slightly OT here, but from this thread and others I've read, the general consensus seems to be that the Deputy Principal teaches.

In my school and last school neither the Principal or Deputy goes near a classroom. New Deputy appointed recently and it doesn't appear to be changing......

man_no_plan

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

Slightly OT here, but from this thread and others I've read, the general consensus seems to be that the Deputy Principal teaches.

In my school and last school neither the Principal or Deputy goes near a classroom. New Deputy appointed recently and it doesn't appear to be changing......

Depends on school size etc. DP may be ex quota.

Is it an issue?

Noccy_Mondy

man_no_plan wrote:

Depends on school size etc. DP may be ex quota.
Is it an issue?

No, just wondering is all.

katydid

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

No, just wondering is all.

Our principal and vice principal don't teach, but they are subject, theoretically, to S&S. They are on the rota - but they never do it. Who's going to say anything?

solerina

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

Slightly OT here, but from this thread and others I've read, the general consensus seems to be that the Deputy Principal teaches.

In my school and last school neither the Principal or Deputy goes near a classroom. New Deputy appointed recently and it doesn't appear to be changing......

Both teach in my school, not a huge amount of hours and usually first & second year only but they do teach. Both on S& S rota too but not sure if they actually do any, have seem them on corridor but never in a supervision class

man_no_plan

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

No, just wondering is all.

The circular I linked a few posts up gives details. a school with more than 500 students will have an ex quota DP.

Over 900 you get two

2011abc

Is that not 1000 ?

man_no_plan

2011abc wrote: »

Is that not 1000 ?

Apologies. 1000 is correct, 900 in a DEIS school however.

Memo V7 sets out teaching hours for principals and deputies in vocational schools which are on the high side.

Thankfully it has been superseded over time. This is the document that talks about 6 weeks holidays for teachers also.

I think that it would be very hard to do much teaching if you're actually running a school well and are hoping to keep on top of stuff. Certainly for a principal, depending on school size.