Going to be late for a flight? Call the gardai

Triangle

I think the super who told them to bring him (if this is true) should be reprimanded.
If he did this, then he doesn't understand the role of a police force and seems like he was just looking to curry favour with a local td.
Either way, it was a bad call from a senior officer. The td was wrong to accept the lift too.

If this happened to me then the flight would be rearranged, especially given the non importance of the first meeting that was scheduled.

Anyone who believes different is a supporter of cronyism imo.

katydid

ODEON123 wrote: »

Nations security can be a pretty broad topic like technically everything is ensuring the security of the nation

Yes...

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

The Gardaí are responsible for maintaining peace and preventing crime. That is part of the security service of this state.

From the Garda website:

"
Some of An Garda Síochána’s core functions include:

• the detection and prevention of crime;
• ensuring our nation’s security;
• reducing the incidence of fatal and serious injuries on our roads and improving road safety;
• working with communities to prevent anti-social behaviour;
• promoting an inter-agency approach to problem solving and improving the overall quality of life"

Note the second bullet point. I've bolded it for your convenience.

Great! We are finally getting somewhere! Did you notice the other bullet points? i.e. the OTHER things the Gardai do other then state security. Do you understand that State Security is something a relatively small part of the Garda do? That the vast majority of Gardai have nothing to do with State Security?

Do you now accept that the Garda do other things then State Security which is your assertion?

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Representing his constituents. Not Ireland.

Right. We've established you don't know what the Garda do. Now on to politicians....

Is he an MEP?

Do you know the difference between an MEP and a TD who happens to be Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs?

Do you think every constituency has a Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs?

Do you think he was representing Cork North Centrals response to the Syrian Refugee Crisis in Brussels?

micosoft

Triangle wrote: »

I think the super who told them to bring him (if this is true) should be reprimanded.
If he did this, then he doesn't understand the role of a police force and seems like he was just looking to curry favour with a local td.
Either way, it was a bad call from a senior officer. The td was wrong to accept the lift too.

If this happened to me then the flight would be rearranged, especially given the non importance of the first meeting that was scheduled.

Anyone who believes different is a supporter of cronyism imo.

I put it to you that a Garda superintendent knows understand more than you about the role of the police force in Ireland.

Anyone that believes different is a supporter of bull**** IMO.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

Right. We've established you don't know what the Garda do. Now on to politicians....

Is he an MEP?

Do you know the difference between an MEP and a TD who happens to be Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs?

Do you think every constituency has a Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs?

Do you think he was representing Cork North Centrals response to the Syrian Refugee Crisis in Brussels?

Since you didn't know that part of an Garda Siochána's role is the security of this state, I'm not sure what would be the point. You seem a little confused.

An elected politician represents his or her constituents, whether they are a backbencher or in cabinet. Of course a minister also represents the government. But he or she doesn't represent Ireland in the way the president does.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

I put it to you that a Garda superintendent knows understand more than you about the role of the police force in Ireland.

Superintendents have never bent the rules or defied protocol?

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Since you didn't know that part of an Garda Siochána's role is the security of this state, I'm not sure what would be the point. You seem a little confused.

An elected politician represents his or her constituents, whether they are a backbencher or in cabinet. Of course a minister also represents the government. But he or she doesn't represent Ireland in the way the president does.

No. No confusion on my part. You accept that the Gardai are not simply responsible for the security of the state and carry out other activities. Indeed the majority of the Gardai have nothing to so with security of the state. Traffic management, a band (that plays at sports events!), etc etc and yes, Ministerial and state drivers.

The rest of your comment is beyond bizarre. So I guess the President represents us in Brussels then? The Minister of Foreign Affairs does what exactly? You need to march back down that hill of yours as it just looks foolish now.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Superintendents have never bent the rules or defied protocol?

Can you show what rule or protocol the Superindependent broke or are you making up stuff again?

I'd have no problem if you said "I think". The problem is you are making up a Police force, rules and protocols that don't exist.

The use of the Garda car was within the remit of the Gardai, broke no rule or protocol.

I think it was appropriate in the context of a Minister travelling important State Business in Europe. You are welcome to have your own opinion on that but not your own facts.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

Can you show what rule or protocol the Superindependent broke or are you making up stuff again?

I'd have no problem if you said "I think". The problem is you are making up a Police force, rules and protocols that don't exist.

The use of the Garda car was within the remit of the Gardai, broke no rule or protocol.

I think it was appropriate in the context of a Minister travelling important State Business in Europe. You are welcome have your own opinion.

Can you show a protocol that shows it's acceptable to chauffeur politicans to the airport?

oscarBravo

katydid wrote: »

Can you show a protocol that shows it's acceptable to chauffeur politicans to the airport?

Can you show a protocol that shows it's acceptable to chauffeur pregnant women to hospital? Seeing as we seem to be operating on the basis that AGS can't do anything whatsoever without there being a written rule somewhere that says it's their job.

katydid

oscarBravo wrote: »

Can you show a protocol that shows it's acceptable to chauffeur pregnant women to hospital? Seeing as we seem to be operating on the basis that AGS can't do anything whatsoever without there being a written rule somewhere that says it's their job.

Can you answer the question?

Hotblack Desiato

katydid wrote: »

An elected politician represents his or her constituents, whether they are a backbencher or in cabinet. Of course a minister also represents the government. But he or she doesn't represent Ireland in the way the president does.

Shock, horror, but quite often Ireland is represented in international fora by a civil servant acting on behalf of the relevant minister.

katydid

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Shock, horror, but quite often Ireland is represented in international fora by a civil servant acting on behalf of the relevant minister.

It's not the same kind of representation. Which is why minor politicians don't have security shadowing them round the clock.

Hotblack Desiato

katydid wrote: »

It's not the same kind of representation. Which is why minor politicians don't have security shadowing them round the clock.

Are you going to withdraw the idiotic and demonstrably false 'representing his constituents' post, or not?

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

Great! We are finally getting somewhere! Did you notice the other bullet points? i.e. the OTHER things the Gardai do other then state security. Do you understand that State Security is something a relatively small part of the Garda do? That the vast majority of Gardai have nothing to do with State Security?

Do you now accept that the Garda do other things then State Security which is your assertion?

Did I say otherwise? I was responding to the claim that the Gardaí are not responsible for state security.

katydid

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Are you going to withdraw the idiotic and demonstrably false 'representing his constituents' post, or not?

He's representing his constituency in the Dáil. In his role as minister he's representing the government. He's not representing the country.

The president represents all of us - he/she is the symbolic representative of all the Irish people.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Did I say otherwise? I was responding to the claim that the Gardaí are not responsible for state security.

I didn't say that. You are now misrepresenting me as well as misrepresenting the Gardai as well as misrepresenting the state. That's some amount of misrepresentation.

You claimed that the Gardai were only responsible for State Security and that was the only thing they are allowed to do. If the Gardai were only responsible for state security they wouldn't respond to a burglary for example as they do not present a threat to state security. State security is not equal to policing.

I proved that State Security was a minor part of Gardai responsibility. And that within the remit of the Gardai the transport of a junior minister fell reasonably within their duties. You actually posted a link providing these other duties at a high level. You proved yourself wrong.

You have now moved on to the most ridiculous position I have seen (and there are a fair few ones in the Politics Cafe) of claiming that Ministers don't represent the State and the only person who can represent the state is the President.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

He's representing his constituency in the Dáil. In his role as minister he's representing the government. He's not representing the country.

The president represents all of us - he/she is the symbolic representative of all the Irish people.

You just can't help yourself. I mean, it was mildly bemusing around the Gardai but now you keep digging a bigger hole.

If the Government doesn't represent the country who do they represent?

I've meet Higgins a few times. I'm sure he would be amused of the idea he is a symbolic representative of the Irish People.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

You just can't help yourself. I mean, it was mildly bemusing around the Gardai but now you keep digging a bigger hole.

If the Government doesn't represent the country who do they represent?

I've meet Higgins a few times. I'm sure he would be amused of the idea he is a symbolic representative of the Irish People.

The government works for the country. It doesn't represent the country.

Somehow I think Mr. Higgins is well aware of the role of the head of state of the Republic, and indeed of the head of state of any country. If he was unsure, which I doubt, he'd only have to look at his own website, where it clearly states that one of his roles is to represent the people of Ireland...

http://www.president.ie/en/the-president/international-role

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

I didn't say that. You are now misrepresenting me as well as misrepresenting the Gardai as well as misrepresenting the state. That's some amount of misrepresentation.

You claimed that the Gardai were only responsible for State Security and that was the only thing they are allowed to do. If the Gardai were only responsible for state security they wouldn't respond to a burglary for example as they do not present a threat to state security. State security is not equal to policing.

I proved that State Security was a minor part of Gardai responsibility. And that within the remit of the Gardai the transport of a junior minister fell reasonably within their duties. You actually posted a link providing these other duties at a high level. You proved yourself wrong.

You have now moved on to the most ridiculous position I have seen (and there are a fair few ones in the Politics Cafe) of claiming that Ministers don't represent the State and the only person who can represent the state is the President.

I never claimed the Gardaí were ONLY responsible for state security. I said they were responsible for state security. One little word makes a big difference. Major, minor, it doesn't matter. They are.

You can stop digging now.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

The government works for the country. It doesn't represent the country.

Somehow I think Mr. Higgins is well aware of the role of the head of state of the Republic, and indeed of the head of state of any country. If he was unsure, which I doubt, he'd only have to look at his own website, where it clearly states that one of his roles is to represent the people of Ireland...

http://www.president.ie/en/the-president/international-role

He is aware, you are not. Unlike you he's read the constitution. And I am still certain he does not view himself as some "embodiment" of the Irish people (little words make a difference see!).

The Government represents the country in all diplomatic negotiations and treaties. The president does not.

Article 29 of our Constitution

4 1° The executive power of the State in or in connection with its external relations shall in accordance with Article 28 of this Constitution be exercised by or on the authority of the Government.

2° For the purpose of the exercise of any executive function of the State in or in connection with its external relations, the Government may to such extent and subject to such conditions, if any, as may be determined by law, avail of or adopt any organ, instrument, or method of procedure used or adopted for the like purpose by the members of any group or league of nations with which the State is or becomes associated for the purpose of international co-operation in matters of common concern.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

I never claimed the Gardaí were ONLY responsible for state security. I said they were responsible for state security. One little word makes a big difference. Major, minor, it doesn't matter. They are.

You can stop digging now.

Ah. Progress. You did make that claim. You claimed they were the security services of the state ergo they should not be driving around a politician. That would be correct if that was their only role or even primary role but it is not.

You now accept the Gardai do more then State Security (actually a tiny part of what they do - there is a difference between state security and policing). One of their roles is providing transport to Government as required. The President, Taoiseach and a number of ministers have this service right now. That's a fact. So to claim that either this service was outside of Gardai regulations or protocols or duties is demonstrably false.

In my view any reasonably minded person accepts that escorting a junior minister on state business to the airport as a once of emergency is reasonable use of state services and the judgement of the super was correct.

You don't and that's fine but stop claiming your understand what the Gardai do and at this point the Government because you demonstrably don't and are making up these "rules" to support your partisan position.

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

oscarBravo

katydid wrote: »

Can you answer the question?

No, I can't show such a protocol - but then, I'm not the one claiming that such a protocol is required before a Garda is allowed to do something.

Your turn.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

He is aware, you are not. Unlike you he's read the constitution. And I am still certain he does not view himself as some "embodiment" of the Irish people (little words make a difference see!).

The Government represents the country in all diplomatic negotiations and treaties. The president does not.

Article 29 of our Constitution

Why do you keep claiming I said things I didn't, so I have to keep pointing out that you are wrong? It's getting rather tiresome. As is quoting irrelevant extracts from Bunreacht na hEireann

katydid

oscarBravo wrote: »

No, I can't show such a protocol - but then, I'm not the one claiming that such a protocol is required before a Garda is allowed to do something.

Your turn.

Neither am I, so...

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

Ah. Progress. You did make that claim. You claimed they were the security services of the state ergo they should not be driving around a politician. That would be correct if that was their only role or even primary role but it is not.

.

Why would it be correct only if it were their only role? Why is it not correct when security is part of their role? Chauffeuring is not part of their role. That's what Gardaí do when they retire at fifty.

oscarBravo

katydid wrote: »

Chauffeuring is not part of their role.

Including chauffeuring pregnant women to hospital?

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Why do you keep claiming I said things I didn't, so I have to keep pointing out that you are wrong? It's getting rather tiresome. As is quoting irrelevant extracts from Bunreacht na hEireann

You said less then a couple of posts ago:

katydid wrote: »

The government works for the country. It doesn't represent the country.
[/URL]

I quoted the exact section of the constitution which explicitly states the Government represents the country:

4 1° The executive power of the State in or in connection with its external relations shall in accordance with Article 28 of this Constitution be exercised by or on the authority of the Government.

I'm sure it's tiresome not only being continuously wrong but forgetting what you said mere posts ago.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Why would it be correct only if it were their only role? Why is it not correct when security is part of their role? Chauffeuring is not part of their role. That's what Gardaí do when they retire at fifty.

Because if State Security was their role they would be the equivalent of British M15, German BND or French DSG for example. You continuous inability to understand what the meaning of State Security is an issue here. State Security is not policing.

You now accept that State Security is part of their role - which it is - a very small (though important) function of the Gardai. But you still deny the fact that (in your childish and offensive words) that other roles such as chauffeuring are not part of their role. Driving and escorting Politicians and Civil Servants are part of their role when needed.

So to repeat. It is part of their role. They do it everyday. To suggest otherwise is untrue.