LRA Agreement will extend Croke Park hours to Sept 2018

mtoutlemonde

feardeas wrote: »

2 This is going to be controversial. I think it is time something was done about underperforming teachers. People who are actually a real hinderance to learning. I'm talking about people who are not working in their classrooms, not preparing, not marking, barely getting courses covered and leaving students in a state of near panic. These people, if permanent, can swan in and out of schools safe in the knowledge that they are virtually untouchable. Now they are a small minority, I believe, but their presence is every bit as much a de-motivating force than any minute spent on Croke Park hours.

FYI http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/en/Professional-Standards/Complaints-about-Registered-Teachers/

You are free to make a complaint about a colleague after the 27th of July 2015.

evolving_doors

feardeas wrote: »

There are times when one can truly despair. Reading some of the comments on this is one of those times. Firstly to blithely call FF and FG 'right wing' parties is to patently ignore reality or certainly what passes for political and economic reality in most democracies. FF, rightly or wrongly, pumped and I mean pumped money into Social Welfare from 1997 to 2007. Right enough there have been savage cuts to it since but for the love of whoever those cuts do not come anywhere close to what a right wing group would actually do. All of the parties promised to increase spending in the next five years [with God knows what]. There is no right wing party that does that, they much rather shrinking the state to a shell ala the Conservatives in the UK or that crowd, that make our average county council look like a member of the intelligentsia, the GOP in America.

Both FF and FG came in at less than 50%. Look at the independents, lots of them not far removed from FF or FG and with the possible exception of one or two they are hardly ready to jump aboard some new utopia where we will be able to print money to pay for what ever we like like Mr Boyd Barrett was suggesting in Limerick on the seven leader debate.

Now as for the LRA and Croke Park. I dislike CP. I hate the fact that they were foisted on us and most of all that their use has on occasion been less than productive. However there are times where they afforded the scope to get things that needed to be done done. AS for being more creative in how they can be used absolutely. I tell you one thing I am mightily sick of some people not doing them especially since the discretionary five came in.

I don't know what the next while will bring but I'm not sure that never ending dispute is much use. What I would like to see our beloved union look at is

1 the disgraceful inequality in pay scales. I heard a member at a branch meeting say 'sure we all had to start'. Talk about 'I'm alright Jack'.

2 This is going to be controversial. I think it is time something was done about underperforming teachers. People who are actually a real hinderance to learning. I'm talking about people who are not working in their classrooms, not preparing, not marking, barely getting courses covered and leaving students in a state of near panic. These people, if permanent, can swan in and out of schools safe in the knowledge that they are virtually untouchable. Now they are a small minority, I believe, but their presence is every bit as much a de-motivating force than any minute spent on Croke Park hours.

1. Pay can be fought back for over time (and we can see that it is on the cards now). What is almost impossible to undo is changes in work practices. Notice how you are actually pondering a more creative use of these pointless choke Park hours, it's like we've accepted that we should be doing them no matter what form. I can't see one bit of good these hours have done, if anything they've caused teachers to reflect on how much unpaid extra we give already.

2. Are you suggesting pay related performance?

feardeas

Not suggesting performance related pay. Just some recognition that performance is of paramount importance.

As for the fyi comments. I wasn't aware but the issue is I'm not in a classroom other than my own. I still hold that fair and robust processes be put in place. No one should really fear that.

feardeas

Gebgbegb wrote: »

1. Pay can be fought back for over time (and we can see that it is on the cards now). What is almost impossible to undo is changes in work practices. Notice how you are actually pondering a more creative use of these pointless choke Park hours, it's like we've accepted that we should be doing them no matter what form. I can't see one bit of good these hours have done, if anything they've caused teachers to reflect on how much unpaid extra we give already.

2. Are you suggesting pay related performance?

In some schools they did. For example they allowed a focus on departmental planning which was useful and gave a broader view to the profession. They allowed a say in school policies e.g. in my school we looked at the roles of head boy and head girl a few years back. People might scoff but this had a positive impact on our school and on student participation.

It allowed time for things like that. My point is that if these are approached with a certain amount of creativity then they do not have to be pointless. Another example would be to allow time to look at things like classroom management techniques or AFL. Things that would improve the learning of our students.

It is just a counter view, I realise I'm probably in a minority and certainly a voice like mine will not get much hearing at conferences this week or at any of the numerous committees that the great ASTI seem to have.

The only thing i fear being resigned to is being stuck at the gate. Once again.

BTW people should read Brian Mooney in today's Times. Usual smugness but a few salient points made too.

deiseindublin

feardeas wrote: »

BTW people should read Brian Mooney in today's Times. Usual smugness but a few salient points made too.

Read it and felt violent towards the man. Talk about one-sided.

Annoyed me even more to see it tagged as "News", rather than "Opinion".

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/brian-mooney-asti-sleep-walking-into-educational-chaos-1.2589102

mirrorwall14

Want to pick out the points?

To be honest I was pissed off with him from the moment he said schools could not function without the croke park hours. If he is at the top of the scale he has been around long enough to know that schools functioned perfectly well without them

deiseindublin

I was also annoyed at him implying TUI accepted it hand over fist, whereas ASTI only marginally rejected it and went on about the poor turnout. You can't have it both ways Brian.

deiseindublin

I know, an accepted necessary evil, my ass it is.

Necessary evil
The imposition of 33 “Croke Park” hours, alongside 43 hours of substitution and supervision to cover for absent colleagues, is accepted as a necessary evil without which schools could not function.

Also annoyed at him implying TUI gave it a huge majority and then went on about only 55% of ASTI rejecting, and yet again rehashing the poor turnout.

I'd actually argue that ASTI leadership is now a lot closer to feeling on the ground that it was before Christmas, PK just didn't have the stomach for it.

mtoutlemonde

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Want to pick out the points?

To be honest I was pissed off with him from the moment he said schools could not function without the croke park hours. If he is at the top of the scale he has been around long enough to know that schools functioned perfectly well without them

Well I will be probably shot down for this but I don't think its a bad article and you are picking up on that particular line. From my reading he is saying that something has to be done regarding ASTI as people who are retired from teaching are allowed to attend and make important decisions for acting teachers. He says how bad the work situation is now with many people on part time hours and lack of stability.

Now while I don't agree with the pointless 33 croke park hours are anyway useful and in no way improve your teaching just keep you in school for nothing when it would be better served to correct homework / prepare classes etc.

I think the point he is making regarding the S & S is who is going to cover classes for absent colleagues? Obviously the department are not going to release funds to cover for a teacher at a football match, the school won't have the funds - so who covers the classes? And add to that, what if the school has a teacher on force majeur etc. where cover is not available. That's my understanding. It would be very easy to resolve this - start paying for the S&S again.

feardeas

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Well I will be probably shot down for this but I don't think its a bad article and you are picking up on that particular line. From my reading he is saying that something has to be done regarding ASTI as people who are retired from teaching are allowed to attend and make important decisions for acting teachers. He says how bad the work situation is now with many people on part time hours and lack of stability.

Now while I don't agree with the pointless 33 croke park hours are anyway useful and in no way improve your teaching just keep you in school for nothing when it would be better served to correct homework / prepare classes etc.

I think the point he is making regarding the S & S is who is going to cover classes for absent colleagues? Obviously the department are not going to release funds to cover for a teacher at a football match, the school won't have the funds - so who covers the classes? And add to that, what if the school has a teacher on force majeur etc. where cover is not available. That's my understanding. It would be very easy to resolve this - start paying for the S&S again.

Being shot down seems to be par of the couse in the ASTI. There is an element there that is unsavoury. I'm a member, will be in the future as well. I believe in the idea of collective bargaining etc. I also believe in residing in a place called reality and at times I wonder if the leadership is.

Also frankly the fact that turnouts are low is worrying and has to call into question the legitimacy of the association in a sense.

Other than that I find Mooney annoying, top of the scale and has all the time in the world to write for a national paper and nip into RTE to provide analysis [use the term very loosely] for the Sean O Rourke show.

Also there will be payment for the S&S as part of our incremental salary from September i think under the Haddington Road Agreement. Can't remeber the figure but think it was about €1700 gross and would be in two installments from Sept 16 and then Sept 17. It would be then that gross figure divided out over our fortnightly salary as opposed to the old way of getting it in tow sums in March and July as of old. However there is a threat to that i think because of the rejection of the LRA

ethical

Unfortunately if the unions do not sign up to the latest agreement,Lansdowne Rd,this payment for s & s will not happen.(eventhough it was to form part of teachers having agreed to the austerity of the past number of years,the government have not kept their side of the bargain again,).

How can you preach that austerity has passed, on the one hand and hammer 'teachers,nurses and gardai' (Enda's words) with FEMPI on the other!

evolving_doors

I was a bit shocked at John Walsh's column today, in that it called FG on their privatisation/league tables agenda.
He even quoted Pasi Sahlberg! I hate to say it, but it was a somewhat reasoned article for the Indo today!

As regards shooting down retired members by BM, I'd be hesitant in pulling the plug on their right to have a say. Many of the older members in our school could see the writing on the wall years ago (in terms of the paperwork/league tables agenda), it just took the recession to bring it in. This is the reason why they were the first to be retired off and silenced. Many of the senior staff knew how everything was hard fought for and were very active union members in their day, they knew that pay could be restored eventually but that once T&C of employment changed then that was that, the CP hours were here to stay and they were being used to drive home a completely different agenda.

We had no problem in school planning prior to CP hours. Actually our meetings were more about our own school and less about failed policy initiatives from across the water.

doc11

feardeas wrote: »

I don't know what the next while will bring but I'm not sure that never ending dispute is much use. What I would like to see our beloved union look at is

1 the disgraceful inequality in pay scales. I heard a member at a branch meeting say 'sure we all had to start'. Talk about 'I'm alright Jack'.

Do you think a newly qualified teacher deserves a 41k starting salary straight out the door(which is what NQT want).I can't see much support(public or otherwise) for it outside of the minority of teachers effected.Anyway technically all teachers are on the same pay scale now so it looks that all teachers are treated equally, a massive fudge on the issue I know.

ethical wrote: »

Unfortunately if the unions do not sign up to the latest agreement,Lansdowne Rd,this payment for s & s will not happen.(eventhough it was to form part of teachers having agreed to the austerity of the past number of years,the government have not kept their side of the bargain again,).

How can you preach that austerity has passed, on the one hand and hammer 'teachers,nurses and gardai' (Enda's words) with FEMPI on the other!

No S&S payment just means no permanent teachers available for S&S duties and more work for subs. Not the end of the world for either side.

km79

doc11 wrote: »

Do you think a newly qualified teacher deserves a 41k starting salary straight out the door(which is what NQT want).I can't see much support(public or otherwise) for it outside of the minority of teachers effected.Anyway technically all teachers are on the same pay scale now so it looks that all teachers are treated equally, a massive fudge on the issue I know.





No S&S payment just means no permanent teachers available for S&S duties and more work for subs. Not the end of the world for either side.

s and s is in our contracts now payment or no payment there will be no going back
Same will be true of CP hours if we cave on LRA
they will be in FOREVER

doc_17

I said at the time that the government won big time with the HRA. We had to give up everything from the day it was signed but the rewards, S&S etc., were only promised after the deal expired.

And just to reply to doc11's point about newly qualified teachers being deserving or otherwise of 41k per year: A fully qualified teacher gets about 90% of the average graduate starting salary. So I suppose it's all relative.

Also, doc11 is no relation of mine!

ethical

.......41k,sounds good until you start taking all the deductions off,you will end up with around 18k net.......and where in Ireland will you get accomodation for that (and live above the breadline as well) ,is it any wonder our colleagues in the Gardai are leaving their posts.
At least the nurses fought and are getting a salary closer to their old payscale.
Teachers are doomed.There is so much fn crap of teachers and so called educationalists in etbs (and do not mention that other great dinosaur CEIST) just hellbent on feathering their own nests and not looking at the long term picture,if they did,they would see the awful mess that present day teaching is being led into!

feardeas

doc11 wrote: »

Do you think a newly qualified teacher deserves a 41k starting salary straight out the door(which is what NQT want).I can't see much support(public or otherwise) for it outside of the minority of teachers effected.Anyway technically all teachers are on the same pay scale now so it looks that all teachers are treated equally, a massive fudge on the issue I know.



I'm not sure where you are getting the 41k figure from. I started in 04 and it was a lot less than that. Now as far as I am concerned the problem is not so much the starting salary but rather the lack of progression along the scale. A NQT will be teaching almost 20 years before getting to the level I [after 11 years] am at. That is unfair. Although I wonder why the ASTI are only getting seriously wound up now? Is it because they see an option of yet another dispute and are they using it as a recruiting tool. I can say that there are a lot of teachers not card carrying members now.

kala85

ethical wrote: »

.......41k,sounds good until you start taking all the deductions off,you will end up with around 18k net.......and where in Ireland will you get accomodation for that (and live above the breadline as well) ,is it any wonder our colleagues in the Gardai are leaving their posts.
At least the nurses fought and are getting a salary closer to their old payscale.
Teachers are doomed.There is so much fn crap of teachers and so called educationalists in etbs (and do not mention that other great dinosaur CEIST) just hellbent on feathering their own nests and not looking at the long term picture,if they did,they would see the awful mess that present day teaching is being led into!

Pension levy and long pay scale wipes out our pay in trying to compete with other jobs

evolving_doors

Ya look, I've met very very few teachers who have lept out of college into a full time salary scale permanent job. So on paper, yes, it might be that figure, but in reality most get a bit of sub work here and there, and then pick up a few hours and hope for the best these you're kept on.
It's going to end up exactly like the UK with govt. Ministers telling teachers to stop being so negative as it's putting people off considering teaching.
It would appear Jeremy Corbyn is getting squarely behind UK teachers at their conferences.

km79

unin members at conference voted overwhelmingly in favour of not fulfilling CP hours when HRA ends in June
hang in there folks we are almost there !

deiseindublin

ASTI only so far from reading the headlines km79.

I'm holding out for news of TUI.

political analyst

I reckon that the ASTI and the TUI have a better chance of success given that Labour is out of the equation. An education minister from either Fine Gael or a Fianna Fáil that was chastened by its 2011 decimation might be amenable to them.

deiseindublin

Is the TUI vote on CP hours tomorrow?

gaiscioch

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Many of the older members in our school could see the writing on the wall years ago (in terms of the paperwork/league tables agenda), it just took the recession to bring it in. This is the reason why they were the first to be retired off and silenced. Many of the senior staff knew how everything was hard fought for and were very active union members in their day, they knew that pay could be restored eventually but that once T&C of employment changed then that was that, the CP hours were here to stay and they were being used to drive home a completely different agenda.

We had no problem in school planning prior to CP hours. Actually our meetings were more about our own school and less about failed policy initiatives from across the water.

This. One major benefit in knowing the history of our profession is that we become aware of the frankly incredible conditions of employment for Irish teachers, in particular their very poor pay and the conditions of their schools.


Teachers who haven't already read it, should read this chapter for a good idea of where we've come from as a profession.

Every single advance in our conditions came about because people before us fought for it. Nothing is ever given, or kept, without a fight. Do not give this away. Let us hang together and defend our conditions because, as your older colleagues said, once they take those conditions from us, they won't be coming back. I'm far less worried about the issue of salaries (to a point, obviously); if I wanted a great salary, I wouldn't have become a teacher. I chose to become a teacher and join one of the greatest and oldest of all Irish traditions from the oide and lucht léinn of the middle ages to the scoil scairte of the 18th century. I never chose to become a yellow-pack, pen-pushing, form-filling administrator attending weeks upon weeks of profoundly pointless and counterproductive hours in a school building.

doc_17

ethical wrote: »

.......41k,sounds good until you start taking all the deductions off,you will end up with around 18k net.......and where in Ireland will you get accomodation for that (and live above the breadline as well) ,is it any wonder our colleagues in the Gardai are leaving their posts.
At least the nurses fought and are getting a salary closer to their old payscale.
Teachers are doomed.There is so much fn crap of teachers and so called educationalists in etbs (and do not mention that other great dinosaur CEIST) just hellbent on feathering their own nests and not looking at the long term picture,if they did,they would see the awful mess that present day teaching is being led into!

If anyone is making 41k gross and only getting 18k net then they need to ring the tax office. Up to about 50k you would take home about 65% of your gross, assuming you are not transferring tax credits to a spouse.

Also, on the subject of the CP hours. We have them on Thursday, which is the day I stay back and do extra maths with the HL group. They lose out and I'll be making it clear to them exactly why there will be no maths this week. These hours are a complete joke in their current form.