Compulsory collective prayer in Northern Ireland

robindch

Absolam wrote: »

[...] So they don't require collective worship [...]

It must be a complete coincidence then that there's so much collective prayer in Irish schools.

Absolam

robindch wrote: »

It must be a complete coincidence then that there's so much collective prayer in Irish schools.

Is it a coincidence that people eat meals even though they're not obliged by laws or rules to do so?

robindch

Absolam wrote: »

Is it a coincidence that people eat meals even though they're not obliged by laws or rules to do so?

I'm reminded of that comment somebody once made about totalitarianism - a system in which everything that's not required by law, is prohibited by law.

Your reply is very silly indeed.

Absolam

robindch wrote: »

I'm reminded of that comment somebody once made about totalitarianism - a system in which everything that's not required by law, is prohibited by law.
Your reply is very silly indeed.

Not quite as silly as wondering if there's a coincidence between a set of rules not including a rule obliging people to do something, and people doing it all the same, you have to admit

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

I'm reminded of that comment somebody once made about totalitarianism - a system in which everything that's not required by law, is prohibited by law.

Your reply is very silly indeed.

No, his reply is spot-on.

Scott, remember, is running a petition to make it optional, rather than compulsory, for schools to include collective worship in the school day. We've already noted in this thread that this wouldn't necessarily solve Scott's problem; his school might elect to continue to include collective worship in the school day even if no longer legally required to do so. And to illustrate that this is not a fanciful speculation, we can look to the situation in the Republic where, as Absolam points, out, there is no legal obligation for schools to include collective worship in the school day, and yet the practice (as you note yourself) is widespread.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

Yes the issue he has is that his parents have a choice rather than him; BlaasForRafas' (and it seems Recedites) issue however was that the school had prayer at all.

I said if the school did not hold these compulsory communal prayers, then the issue of whether it was him or his parents who needed to ask for the official opt-out would not arise.
But the school could still allow voluntary groups to hold prayer meetings at break times.
But of course, we all know that voluntary prayer groups just aren't going to get the same numbers attending as compulsory prayer groups (even if an opt-out is technically available via a special note from some atheist parent)
And another thing, if I was the parent, I'd want to know what pupil supervision was proposed during the opt out, and I'd probably be told "none".

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

I said if the school did not hold these compulsory communal prayers, then the issue of whether it was him or his parents who needed to ask for the official opt-out would not arise.
But the school could still allow voluntary groups to hold prayer meetings at break times.
But of course, we all know that voluntary prayer groups just aren't going to get the same numbers attending as compulsory prayer groups (even if an opt-out is technically available via a special note from some atheist parent)
And another thing, if I was the parent, I'd want to know what pupil supervision was proposed during the opt out, and I'd probably be told "none".

Just so we're clear (for Mr Pudding) are you suggesting that the school being compelled to have collective prayer is going to cause more numbers to attend, or the school compelling pupils to attend collective prayer is going to cause more numbers to attend?

If it's the former, I'm just saying a straight out 'that's nonsense'.

If it's the latter fair enough; but since parental opt-out is built into the system there is no true compulsion, other than that which parents place on their children. I don't know why you think opting out is only 'technically available via a special note from some atheist parent'; is there any evidence that parents don't take up the option if they want? Scott seems pretty aware of it; his issue isn't that it's somehow difficult for parents to realistically opt him out rather than technically, his issue that his parents clearly can, and he can't. If fact, he says his parents did opt him out (and shockingly, they're not some atheists parents, either!)

Fair enough, as a parent you might want to assure yourself there was pupil supervision during the opt out, but on what basis do you imagine you'd probably be told "none"? Probably suggests you have some evidence that schools in Northern Ireland decline to supervise pupils who don't participate in Collective Prayer. But I have a sneaking suspicion your probably is based more on your own prejudice than observation of fact... is it?

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

Just so we're clear (for Mr Pudding) are you suggesting that the school being compelled to have collective prayer is going to cause more numbers to attend, or the school compelling pupils to attend collective prayer is going to cause more numbers to attend?

Both.