Enlisting with a degree

janet1989

I applied for Army general service recently after I failed to get into the Cadets.
I have a law degree. Will having a degree be of any benefit to me in a career in General Service? Will I go up the ranks quicker?

gg1305

janet1989 wrote: »

I applied for Army general service recently after I failed to get into the Cadets.
I have a law degree. Will having a degree be of any benefit to me in a career in General Service? Will I go up the ranks quicker?

No it won't

danube

I was told by two officers that I should do something more worthwhile with my degree and that I would be unfulfilled as a private.

But on the other hand I emailed the PDF and they said this; "A degree could certainly provide leverage when applying for courses related to that field such as Military Police, Directorate of Legal Services and even Health and Safety and Logistics".

Horusire

danube wrote: »

I was told by two officers that I should do something more worthwhile with my degree and that I would be unfulfilled as a private.

But on the other hand I emailed the PDF and they said this; "A degree could certainly provide leverage when applying for courses related to that field such as Military Police, Directorate of Legal Services and even Health and Safety and Logistics".

This is not what will happen. you'll be just another mushroom on the lines. You getting a spot on an MP course because of your degree over lads who have been in with years is likely to end in near mutiny. Everything is done on how long you've served even if officially it isn't. A friend of mine was a similar degree and was lied to similarly.

mikeym

Best off going to Cadets if you have a degree.

More money when you get the commission.

discus

I wouldn't recommend it.

Señor Fancy Pants

Horusire wrote: »

This is not what will happen. you'll be just another mushroom on the lines. You getting a spot on an MP course because of your degree over lads who have been in with years is likely to end in near mutiny. Everything is done on how long you've served even if officially it isn't. A friend of mine was a similar degree and was lied to similarly.

Not entirely true and I think it's unfair to mislead the OP.

While having a degree will not get him where he wants to go in the DF, it's not a bad thing to have coming in.

It's highly unlikely that he would get the chance to use his degree as an Enlisted man, tbh, a lot of the commissioned ranks don't get to use their law degree either.

However, it would count on the points system when it comes to courses and promotion within the ranks. Including a good leg up if applying for a POC.

Saying he will just "be a mushroom on the lines" is incorrect. Who knows what path this guy could potentially go down. Not all people stay on the lines.

Seniority is just ONE part of a myriad of things that give you points towards courses...including an MP course. Having a degree may put him a place or two higher than a guy from the lines that hasn't bothered his ass doing anything with his career.

pablomakaveli

It depends really. Go in thinking you're better than everyone else because you have a degree and you will be seen as an arsehole.

However go in with a more humble respectful mindset and apply the abilities to work hard and self motivation that you would have had to utilize to get your degree and you'll do fine.

I appreciate being an officer isn't for everyone. It wasn't for me and it might not be for you either and theres nothing wrong with that.

mikeym

But if you ask most Privates if they had the education to get into Cadets would they go for it and most would say Yes.

Señor Fancy Pants

mikeym wrote: »

But if you ask most Privates if they had the education to get into Cadets would they go for it and most would say Yes.

True but in the OP's case, he didn't get into the Cadets but has applied for general service.

I say go for it and apply for the next Cadetship competition if he wants to.

It wasn't me!

mikeym wrote: »

But if you ask most Privates if they had the education to get into Cadets would they go for it and most would say Yes.

What is separating most Privates from a cadetship is not just education. Too many seem to think it's the biggest thing and I've been through the process a bunch of times unfortunately, with no results, and a good education behind me. I'm a serving Pte with a degree. It's of no help in your day to day life. If you're set on getting to use your degree, the army as a whole may not facilitate you at all. Even if you were to get commissioned there's nothing to say you'd get to use it as an officer. If you want to give the military life a go for its own sake, by all means go for it. You can always do something in later life with your degree, but military service is somewhat age restricted.

SFP would know better than I would about the bonuses in terms of points for courses and the like. Frankly I don't know whether the army has any record of me having a degree on my file so I don't know how they'd take it into account, but it's not going to hurt you to have one, just don't expect to get to use it in work.

discus

What is separating most Privates from a cadetship is not just education. Too many seem to think it's the biggest thing and I've been through the process a bunch of times unfortunately, with no results, and a good education behind me. I'm a serving Pte with a degree. It's of no help in your day to day life. If you're set on getting to use your degree, the army as a whole may not facilitate you at all. Even if you were to get commissioned there's nothing to say you'd get to use it as an officer. If you want to give the military life a go for its own sake, by all means go for it. You can always do something in later life with your degree, but military service is somewhat age restricted.

**** me, great post.

I went into the brits with a degree, an army which is supposedly more progressive than most. Degree counted for nothing. Day to day, your degree is useless unless you are in a profession or possibly EOD. As a rifleman, gunner, transport wallah or whatever, your degree doesn't matter a whit. Can't speak for the DF but promotion happens what, once every 3 or 4 years in your career? So at that point it's taken under consideration but otherwise counts for...? Nothing. Armies by and large teach you anything that you need for promoting.

That's all based on my experience. I'm a civvy now so take whatever I say with a pinch of salt

arybvtcw0eolkf

Almost without exception most lads I've worked with have done degree's with a view to leaving the DF!.

With or without your degree the first few years enlisted you're going to be a grunt just like everyone else, you'll be nothing special.

Sure it can look good having it on your personal file, and you can push it applying for courses but tbh if I'd a law degree there's not a chance I'd be wasting it enlisting.

If you don't want to do your deviling, apprenticeship etc go sit the New York bar exam, try find a sponsor in NYC, work your ass off for a year and come home a qualified solicitor (if you could be bothered coming home to this kip).

Then if you still have a hankering for military life joint the RDF as a hobby and have the craic.

Law degree and joining enlisted when most working towards a law degree are working a 'get out of jail card ~ feck it man thats like breaking into a prison!.

(Oh, if you're still thinking then as with everything here in this forum ~ SFP is on the money, best man bar none to take advice from in this forum).

earlytobed

You could become the first ever qualified Barrack Room Lawyer:)

sean2591

It wasn't me! wrote: »

What is separating most Privates from a cadetship is not just education. Too many seem to think it's the biggest thing and I've been through the process a bunch of times unfortunately, with no results, and a good education behind me. I'm a serving Pte with a degree. It's of no help in your day to day life. If you're set on getting to use your degree, the army as a whole may not facilitate you at all. Even if you were to get commissioned there's nothing to say you'd get to use it as an officer. If you want to give the military life a go for its own sake, by all means go for it. You can always do something in later life with your degree, but military service is somewhat age restricted.

SFP would know better than I would about the bonuses in terms of points for courses and the like. Frankly I don't know whether the army has any record of me having a degree on my file so I don't know how they'd take it into account, but it's not going to hurt you to have one, just don't expect to get to use it in work.

Very interesting - thanks for posting that.

I have a degree. I tried to get in as a Cadet but didn't get it so have to accept that. I am going through the process to join as a Private and I will be happy if I get in to do that.

Alot of people who have degrees don't use them in their jobs. Some are unemployed. Like you said I want to give military life a go and maybe use the degree later on depending what happened. In that Recruits programme one of the lads mentioned about going to college. I don't think you should expect to get treated any differently whether you have a degree or not - it should be about how good a recruit/soldier you are.

Can I ask though when you look at your Officers or the training staff you had did you ever think I would have been better than them if I had got the chance to go through as an Officer? Ever feel any resentment? (hope you don't mind me asking!)

hurlsey

I wouldn't is the short answer!!

It will be less than useless to you, unless after you enlist you have another go at a cadetship!

If I could go back to when I joined and have worked hard enough to have a law degree, I wouldn't be wasting it as a pte in the Df.

danube

hurlsey wrote: »

I wouldn't is the short answer!!

It will be less than useless to you, unless after you enlist you have another go at a cadetship!

If I could go back to when I joined and have worked hard enough to have a law degree, I wouldn't be wasting it as a pte in the Df.

I have a degree and I'm on a panel for general service. Is there anything wrong with spending just a few years as a private/Corporal? Surely service in the Army looks good on the CV?
There is other college graduates working in Mcdonalds and I would prefer to be in the army until I get a job with my degree.

hurlsey

danube wrote: »

I have a degree and I'm on a panel for general service. Is there anything wrong with spending just a few years as a private/Corporal? Surely service in the Army looks good on the CV?
There is other college graduates working in Mcdonalds and I would prefer to be in the army until I get a job with my degree.

If it is something you want to do, then you've already your mind made up!

If you only plan on doing 5 years or less, it's unlikely you'll be a Cpl by that stage but it happens, as a private until you find a job with your degree, go for it!!

Try and do a few gucci courses, get a trip, or 2!

Then... Leave!!

riffmongous

danube wrote: »

I have a degree and I'm on a panel for general service. Is there anything wrong with spending just a few years as a private/Corporal? Surely service in the Army looks good on the CV?
There is other college graduates working in Mcdonalds and I would prefer to be in the army until I get a job with my degree.

Do you think you'll still be able to get a job with your degree after a few years? Some degrees last better than others

hurlsey

riffmongous wrote: »

Do you think you'll still be able to get a job with your degree after a few years? Some degrees last better than others

+1 on that, if you're unemployable after joining the DF because you haven't used your degree, I wouldn't join if I were you

It wasn't me!

sean2591 wrote: »

Can I ask though when you look at your Officers or the training staff you had did you ever think I would have been better than them if I had got the chance to go through as an Officer? Ever feel any resentment? (hope you don't mind me asking!)

As I said before, the difference between an officer and a Private is not a degree and if you feel like that, or more importantly give others the impression that you feel like that, you're going to be treated like an arsehole, because it's all well and good to think stuff like that but you're not the one in that position and until you are, you're not going to know how you'd behave. I was older than most going through training as well so yeah, my background (25, good honours degree, years of employment) was very different to a lot of guys I trained with, some of whom were 18 and didn't even have a leaving cert, but training is the great leveller. It's impossible to see there being any gap between me and that 18 year old as a soldier. I don't even think of us as being different ages other than when I'm getting the piss taken out of me for being feckin' ancient. If I haven't answered your question directly, it's because it's somewhat redundant, and you'll understand that on the far side of the training process. Resentment is just wasted energy. Things are as they are, so be forward looking and always strive for the next thing, whatever it is. If you get it, great; and if you don't, either go again or pick a new thing to do.

Horusire

Señor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Not entirely true and I think it's unfair to mislead the OP.

While having a degree will not get him where he wants to go in the DF, it's not a bad thing to have coming in.

It's highly unlikely that he would get the chance to use his degree as an Enlisted man, tbh, a lot of the commissioned ranks don't get to use their law degree either.

However, it would count on the points system when it comes to courses and promotion within the ranks. Including a good leg up if applying for a POC.

Saying he will just "be a mushroom on the lines" is incorrect. Who knows what path this guy could potentially go down. Not all people stay on the lines.

Seniority is just ONE part of a myriad of things that give you points towards courses...including an MP course. Having a degree may put him a place or two higher than a guy from the lines that hasn't bothered his ass doing anything with his career.

Unfortunately I've seen "mushrooms" who've rotted on the lines get NCO,MP and a myriad of other courses before lads with degrees. I'd like if the irish defence forces was the progressive thinking organisation that you claim but unfortunately from exprience it isnt.

If the OP decides to enlist let them find out for themselves iam only giving them my insight in to what has become a 5 year career break for most.

Señor Fancy Pants

Horusire wrote: »

Unfortunately I've seen "mushrooms" who've rotted on the lines get NCO,MP and a myriad of other courses before lads with degrees. I'd like if the irish defence forces was the progressive thinking organisation that you claim but unfortunately from exprience it isnt.

If the OP decides to enlist let them find out for themselves iam only giving them my insight in to what has become a 5 year career break for most.

I've seen it myself, I'm not denying it. I haven't seen it recently though.

It's quite possible these "mushrooms" as you call them....awful thing to say about comrades if I'm honest. Those who get such courses would have had more points than the guy with the degree.

I'm not sure what your experience is based on. You know as well as I do that people check their order of merit and appeal and/or redress their points if they feel hard done by.

The nominating and selecting authorities are very careful in picking people for courses nowadays.

The OP can also put his name in the hat for various courses which are ran in UNTSI. A law degree would look good with various humanitarian, cultural, civilian focussed and gender courses that UNTSI run from time to time.

I'm not saying he would get them because he has a Law degree but they may go hand in hand.

To summarise, he won't get what he wants purely because he has a degree but it won't do any harm and it definitely will push him a point or two up the list for a course that a guy he trained with that has no degree.

Horusire

Señor Fancy Pants wrote: »

I've seen it myself, I'm not denying it. I haven't seen it recently though.

It's quite possible these "mushrooms" as you call them....awful thing to say about comrades if I'm honest. Those who get such courses would have had more points than the guy with the degree.

I'm not sure what your experience is based on. You know as well as I do that people check their order of merit and appeal and/or redress their points if they feel hard done by.

The nominating and selecting authorities are very careful in picking people for courses nowadays.

The OP can also put his name in the hat for various courses which are ran in UNTSI. A law degree would look good with various humanitarian, cultural, civilian focussed and gender courses that UNTSI run from time to time.

I'm not saying he would get them because he has a Law degree but they may go hand in hand.

To summarise, he won't get what he wants purely because he has a degree but it won't do any harm and it definitely will push him a point or two up the list for a course that a guy he trained with that has no degree.

It's not meant as an insult. iam number 3 mushroom myself. I can see where you are coming from but tbh I think you might be putting a little to much faith in the selection process. I've seen howlers sent on the last promotion courses. men who couldn't run a bath. But that's neither here nor there.

Hope the OP goes on and does something else. half of the *new* army are studying part time with a view to leaving as soon as possible. by new I mean lads on there first contract.

Also UNTSI courses are normally NCO only. not a hope op will be an NCO in 5 years.

sean2591

It wasn't me! wrote: »

As I said before, the difference between an officer and a Private is not a degree and if you feel like that, or more importantly give others the impression that you feel like that, you're going to be treated like an arsehole, because it's all well and good to think stuff like that but you're not the one in that position and until you are, you're not going to know how you'd behave. I was older than most going through training as well so yeah, my background (25, good honours degree, years of employment) was very different to a lot of guys I trained with, some of whom were 18 and didn't even have a leaving cert, but training is the great leveller. It's impossible to see there being any gap between me and that 18 year old as a soldier. I don't even think of us as being different ages other than when I'm getting the piss taken out of me for being feckin' ancient. If I haven't answered your question directly, it's because it's somewhat redundant, and you'll understand that on the far side of the training process. Resentment is just wasted energy. Things are as they are, so be forward looking and always strive for the next thing, whatever it is. If you get it, great; and if you don't, either go again or pick a new thing to do.

Thanks for answering. I'd probably be similar enough to you, 24 with a degree and have been working and am sure I'll get it about being an old fart but I definitely want to do it. No question. I definitely wouldn't think I am better than anybody else or anything like that.

It's good to hear the reality and the different opinions on here as I don't really know anybody in the Army in the 'real world'. I will think about things but if I get through I think I will go with it. Do you think you did the right thing in joining? It's good to get differnt opinions.

I've only been through the fitness test and that was easy enough so will have to wait and see what happens

It wasn't me!

There's no right thing. If you want to try it and get the experience of that type of lifestyle, go for it.

hurlsey

It wasn't me! wrote: »

There's no right thing. If you want to try it and get the experience of that type of lifestyle, go for it.

+1 on what IWM said, look you have a degree behind you, if you join and don't like it, you're not stuck, you have an "out"

danube

Hope the OP goes on and does something else. half of the *new* army are studying part time with a view to leaving as soon as possible. by new I mean lads on there first contract.

[/QUOTE]
What is it exactly about the job that makes them want to leave?

Señor Fancy Pants

danube wrote: »

What is it exactly about the job that makes them want to leave?

New entrants are on 10% less wages (at least) than a guy who joined pre '09. They can serve and qualify for a 21yr pension but won't get it until they are 50 (I think)

Overseas appointments are hard to get, promotion is getting harder, getting the course you want is also tricky.

People get disillusioned pretty quickly. If you are young with little or no people depending on you. The logical choice seems to be join for 5 years (as some sort of a stop gap) and bug out.

mikeym

Señor Fancy Pants wrote: »

New entrants are on 10% less wages (at least) than a guy who joined pre '09. They can serve and qualify for a 21yr pension but won't get it until they are 50 (I think)

Overseas appointments are hard to get, promotion is getting harder, getting the course you want is also tricky.

People get disillusioned pretty quickly. If you are young with little or no people depending on you. The logical choice seems to be join for 5 years (as some sort of a stop gap) and bug out.

Anyone that joined up after April 2004 dont get a pension after 21 years service. You have to do 30 years.

Señor Fancy Pants

mikeym wrote: »

Anyone that joined up after April 2004 dont get a pension after 21 years service. You have to do 30 years.

Correcto. My bad....30 years of deadliness though!

Horusire

mikeym wrote: »

Anyone that joined up after April 2004 dont get a pension after 21 years service. You have to do 30 years.

That's wrong. you can do 21 leave wait till your 50 and then get your pension. If god forbid someone did 21 how joined at 17 they'd have to wait 12 years for there pension.

uck51js9zml2yt

Señor Fancy Pants wrote: »

New entrants are on 10% less wages (at least) than a guy who joined pre '09. They can serve and qualify for a 21yr pension but won't get it until they are 50 (I think)

Overseas appointments are hard to get, promotion is getting harder, getting the course you want is also tricky.

People get disillusioned pretty quickly. If you are young with little or no people depending on you. The logical choice seems to be join for 5 years (as some sort of a stop gap) and bug out.

Talking to my brother , even he says overseas is harder to get as are courses. He's a QM with almost 40 years under his belt.
A nephew joined and gave up after basic training and not getting any courses. He got so fed up with sitting around that he bought himself out.

sean2591

Meadow Gigantic Hailstorm wrote: »

Talking to my brother , even he says overseas is harder to get as are courses. He's a QM with almost 40 years under his belt.
A nephew joined and gave up after basic training and not getting any courses. He got so fed up with sitting around that he bought himself out.

Talking about your nephew there what did you mean by saying 'he bought himself out'?

uck51js9zml2yt

sean2591 wrote: »

Talking about your nephew there what did you mean by saying 'he bought himself out'?

When you sign up, you do so for a fixed period. To leave within that term there is a penalty payment which the army calculate based on length of time, training etc.
If you pay it you can leave early.

Señor Fancy Pants

Meadow Gigantic Hailstorm wrote: »

Talking to my brother , even he says overseas is harder to get as are courses. He's a QM with almost 40 years under his belt.
A nephew joined and gave up after basic training and not getting any courses. He got so fed up with sitting around that he bought himself out.

Yeah there are very few CQMS vacancies overseas. The higher you go in Rank, the harder it is to deploy. That changes when there are larger troop missions obviously.

danube

Señor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Yeah there are very few CQMS vacancies overseas. The higher you go in Rank, the harder it is to deploy. That changes when there are larger troop missions obviously.

My friends Dad is a Company Sergent and he hasn't been deployed since Chad in 2008.

Señor Fancy Pants

danube wrote: »

My friends Dad is a Company Sergent and he hasn't been deployed since Chad in 2008.

Jaysis, same as myself. I must have been on the same trip as him.

mikeym

Horusire wrote: »

That's wrong. you can do 21 leave wait till your 50 and then get your pension. If god forbid someone did 21 how joined at 17 they'd have to wait 12 years for there pension.

From the pension handbook.

If you retire before age 50, your retirement benefits are preserved to age 60. This means that your pension and gratuity will be payable only from age 60 and on application by you.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the 2004 Pensions and I rang Galway recently to be told that you get no pension after 21 years service if you joined after April 1st, but after looking at the handbook your entitled to some benefits.

I dont claim to have all the answers but I certainly will be looking into it further.

Horusire

mikeym wrote: »

From the pension handbook.



There seems to be a lot of confusion about the 2004 Pensions and I rang Galway recently to be told that you get no pension after 21 years service if you joined after April 1st, but after looking at the handbook your entitled to some benefits.

I dont claim to have all the answers but I certainly will be looking into it further.

You may have just ended my military career. The PSS literally lied to my platoon.

Lockstep

I looked into it as well OP but generally heard that I'd be better off looking elsewhere.

That said, a friend of mine spent years applying for the cadets with a law degree and got nowhere, even after getting an LLM in peacekeeping. He then decided to enlist and has been in it a couple of years and loves it.

mikeym

Horusire wrote: »

You may have just ended my military career. The PSS literally lied to my platoon.

If you want to leave after 21 years service get onto a PDFORRA rep who should point you in the right direction or else he/she may advise you on your entitlements if you have any.

Anyone who joined between April 2004 and 1st January 2011 should have recieved the Pensions Handbook from the Department Of Defence.

BigDuffman

If its the lifestyle you want then go for it OP. You will get a lot of negativity from people who consider themselves or others "mushrooms". Some of these are also the type of lads who wait until 6 weeks before EOS to bother putting their name in to the hat to do a course then whinge that they did not get it.

Lads with degrees are not considered a strange thing any more. In my unit we have two boys with a law degree and one going up to kings inn on a part time basis. Granted none of these have long term ambitions at a DF career. But the DF is unlike any other work place. Never mind the conditions and lifestyle you are actively encouraged and given leave to study an official 5 days a year, study leave and then days off for tests and buckshee halfers when you need it. Very few excuses for anyone to not up-skill. Use this to your advantage. Do your overseas, get on course's that will stand to you in civvie street. UNTSI, human rights etc. as other posters have said it may take a while but thats where its up to you to manage your own career. Then when you jump ship you will 100% stand out on any interview panel. That said be very aware of the money that you will be on when you go in.

As with any job if you show yourself to have an interest and be proactive that will stand to you. It's true that a lot of courses are down to seniority. But talking to your superiors and showing an interest instead of sitting in the locker room will get you noticed. That is not to say that you will be immediately flung up the ranks or on gucci courses but you will be pegged as a "good lad for x". You will be given opportunities and projects. Making your interests known is key, people scoff at annual appraisals but that's what they are there for. However try steer clear of the cynicism (both here and if you get in). There are people in the DF who are perfectly happy to work their 9 to 4 with long lunches and never once put their head over the parapet.

It wasn't me!

Just for what it's worth, my experience has not been that the degree has attracted me any flak from my fellow mushrooms. I wouldn't worry about it going in, but remember, it's not what marks you out in the job. You'll have to actually be a good soldier and can't rest your reputation on what's come before. In that respect, it could be good to get away from your degree since it'll focus you on rounding out your abilities and skills.