ASTI Ballots

Icsics

A sign of the times that there's no thread on this already, guess we're all just balloted out. First lot must be due tomorrow, any predictions?

acequion

No. I haven't heard anything. Almost everyone I know voted no but it was the same with CP and HR and we know what happened there. I'd imagine the turn out will be abysmal as most people have no faith in the unions and really who can blame them!

Still,we live in hope.

Inspector Coptoor

With regard to the ballot that arrived in the post this morning, what are people's take on it and how are ye voting?

I'm pretty sure I'll be voting no to this one as well as the one last week.

km79

I think JC will be rejected ......well I hope anyway
POR will be accepted

hard to know about the LRA but its vital its rejected
however I think a lot of teachers don't know what way to vote and don't care !

Inspector Coptoor

We should get a #ifindoubtvoteno going

2011abc

km79 wrote: »

I think JC will be rejected

This time?

km79

2011abc wrote: »

This time?

yes but again I'm basing that on our staff room which is not a good barometer of many I fear !

Icsics

I would love to see the JCert rejected, hard to know, everyones so sick of it all at this stage the vote will be low ( & if we give the 'wrong' answer it'll be an excuse to reballot). I'm hopeful POR will be rejected, who would vote to do even more work for free?
It'll be time to consider union membership if JCert & POR are accepted, there'll be nothing left

r93kaey5p2izun

What's the POR ballot? Or am I missing something very obvious? I'm TUI not ASTI but we just voted on JC Reform and Industrial Action. Next up is LRA. Are ASTI balloting on something else too? Posts of Responsibility??

Everyone I know voted NO to JC, but I think it will be accepted unfortunately.

acequion

Icsics wrote: »

I would love to see the JCert rejected, hard to know, everyones so sick of it all at this stage the vote will be low ( & if we give the 'wrong' answer it'll be an excuse to reballot). I'm hopeful POR will be rejected, who would vote to do even more work for free?
It'll be time to consider union membership if JCert & POR are accepted, there'll be nothing left

I hear you Icsics. But useless and all as the unions are,we really would be worse off without them.

I'd be delighted if JC got rejected. I totally hate the idea of it and as an English teacher the idea of having to off and do all this training for something I've neither interest nor faith in makes me want to scream!

Benicetomonty

As above, jc will be rejected if our staff is representative but still a lot of apathy visible. More work for no more money and no obvious structure to 'professional time' with mini croke park hr SLAR meetings thrown in to boot; seems pretty straight-forward to me. Shouldnt even be close but expect it will be.

Icsics

Junior Cert REJECTED 55-45 😀

man_no_plan

TUI accept JC - ASTI Reject!!

km79

Icsics wrote: »

Junior Cert REJECTED 55-45 😀

But accepted 2:1 by tui
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/junior-cycle-plan-in-disarray-after-split-vote-by-teachers-1.2364660

mirrorwall14

****. There's nothing worse than the two unions doing two different things

gaiscioch

Did only TUI secondary school teachers have a right to vote on JC reform, or did all TUI members have a right?

Any suggestions why the TUI turnout, at 60%, was substantially higher than the ASTI turnout at 40%? That's a depressingly low turnout. A principal power of teachers is their vote, and if they don't vote they can expect to be cast aside along with all other sections of broader society who do not use their vote to influence policy. It's no coincidence that the most socio-economically disadvantaged parts of society have low turnouts/don't threaten existing political interests. Use your vote No to the Lansdowne Road Agreement - or be stuck doing the Idiot Hours until September 2018 (most teachers seem unaware of the consequences of voting No to the LRA)


RTÉ: ASTI rejects, TUI accepts junior cycle reform proposals

gaiscioch

Also, proud to be an ASTI member today!

Keep it up. Hold the line! Connolly, Larkin, O'Donnell...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POH14-HMGFc

Les grands ne sont grands que parce que nous sommes à genoux: Levons-nous.

Ní uasal aon uasal ach sinne bheith íseal: Éirímis.

The great appear great because we are on our knees: Let us rise.

acequion

Am delighted with the ASTI result and very proud of my fellow ASTI members. In truth I was bracing myself for a cave in and the fact that we didn't is undoubtedly a victory. A small one,perhaps,given the margin and given the TUI acceptance,but still a very significant victory.

What is important now is how we use it. Do we accept a few measly crumbs and say yes before Christmas as no doubt we'll be hugely pressurised to? I so sincerely hope not because If we are smart we will play this right. This is our chance to reclaim our union by attending meetings and pestering our reps to in turn put pressure on those at the top. This is our chance to demand proper reform and we really must not waste that chance. We are the largest second level union and we have said NO.

As for our collegues in TUI! Are they on a different planet? Two to one in favour! I mean WTF!! I know my comments and attitude will annoy many posters but time and time again TUI play Judas on ASTI. ASTI then win concessions which TUI members benefit from. It's just not right.

High time for just one united second level union!

clunked

Have to say, amazed at the TUI capitulation. Leaves the ASTI exposed. Expect loads of threats now from the Dept.

Jamfa

A turnout of only 40% translates into only 22% of ASTI members voting No. This is a hardly a strong mandate. Given that the ballot papers are delivered directly to you and all you have to do is place an X and post it back this raises serious issues about apathy among teachers. There are lots of unresolved issues about the Junior Cycle reforms but do most teachers simply not care!

deiseindublin

I'm TUI and disgusted (but not surprised) at the result. It's very hard to know what the breakdown is but it can't help that 3rd level vote is included in this 2nd level debate.

At least the ASTI is a bigger union and hopefully the ASTIs rejection will veto TUI acceptance. Not sure how it works though.

Icsics

TUI third level should not be allowed vote on 2nd level issues. It means nothing to them, just like CP hours and S&S don't impact on that sector to the same degree.
Pat King was on the one o'clock news, sounding VERY watery...looking forward to 'fixing' the problems...he hasn't the belief for this battle, sure he's on the verge of retiring anyway. Is he going to do a number on us before he does??!

Inspector Coptoor

The TUI, as a union, should focus on 3rd level issues and all second level teachers should join the ASTI in the interest of unity.

The INTO, as soft and capitulative as they are, provide one, strong voice for their members.
We simply don't have that at second level.

I'm delighted with the result of the ballot, appalled by the turnout.

If people can't/won't even out an X in a box and write a number on an envelope and shove the envelope in a post box, it's extremely worrying.

"First they came for Croke Park hours and I did nothing" etc

mirrorwall14

How are the ASTI ballots run? Our TUI staff vote in school and the rep posts back the ballot papers so the turn out tends to be decent. However the amount of people who I saw vote yes while in the same breath admitting they had no idea what it was about... Why on earth would you agree to something you haven't read Ffs?!

rainbowtrout

I said what the result was at lunch to the group I was eating with. I got a lot of 'FFS what were TUI teachers thinking' followed by 'My ballot paper is still in my locker' from the same people

I give up.

I'm actually amazed that the TUI Yes vote was so high. I would also be of the train of thought that the third level vote played a part in this.

I do think the second and third level sector should have separate unions.

km79

whats the plan for POR now ?
over 6 years and they have done NOTHING on them?
crisis point in large schools

acequion

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

How are the ASTI ballots run? Our TUI staff vote in school and the rep posts back the ballot papers so the turn out tends to be decent. However the amount of people who I saw vote yes while in the same breath admitting they had no idea what it was about... Why on earth would you agree to something you haven't read Ffs?!

The ballot papers arrive to us at our home address and we then vote,put the stuff back into the correct envelopes and into the pre stamped envelope and stick it in the post. Hardly rocket science.

But even that much is too much for some people apparently. You have to sit down for a mere five minutes and the only thing is to be sure to put things into the correct envelopes,a ballot envelope,then an identification one where you put your name,school and membership number,which they include on your envelope and the main envelope. I would say there are loads of teachers who just fling them aside when they come through the post. It surely is shocking and it's probably why the unions have got away with selling us out. No resistance from the ground.

But regardless of poor turn out 55% of those who did vote voted NO. It's up to that 55% to now stick to their guns. I am a lot more optimistic than I was.

RealJohn

In slight defense of my fellow TUI members, the union did recommend a yes so that's probably why it was a fairly resounding yes. I think the fact that nearly a third of us (me included) went against the union recommendation says a lot about the feeling of teachers who actually know what they're voting on. We all know that the majority of teachers either don't have the time (understandable) or just couldn't be bothered to educate themselves (ironically) on the issues and will it's go with the whatever the union recommend. The union have sold us short again by recommending the yes in the first place.

We, and by 'we' I mean all teachers, really need to get actively involved in the unions because currently, the unions aren't being run by teachers. They're being run by politicians who were once teachers and no longer face the day to day realities of the teaching profession. That's fine as long as we make them answerable to us and hold them to account but by our non-attendance at union meeting they're a law unto themselves.

Icsics

Any word on the POR ballot?

acequion

RealJohn wrote: »

In slight defense of my fellow TUI members, the union did recommend a yes so that's probably why it was a fairly resounding yes. I think the fact that nearly a third of us (me included) went against the union recommendation says a lot about the feeling of teachers who actually know what they're voting on. We all know that the majority of teachers either don't have the time (understandable) or just couldn't be bothered to educate themselves (ironically) on the issues and will it's go with the whatever the union recommend. The union have sold us short again by recommending the yes in the first place.

We, and by 'we' I mean all teachers, really need to get actively involved in the unions because currently, the unions aren't being run by teachers. They're being run by politicians who were once teachers and no longer face the day to day realities of the teaching profession. That's fine as long as we make them answerable to us and hold them to account but by our non-attendance at union meeting they're a law unto themselves.

RealJohn, not having the time is NOT understandable. None of us have time. We're all swamped and we're all sick to death of having to constantly justify ourselves and fight a Govt who is hostile to us. But if we don't make the time we'll end up with a hell of a lot less time as the workload just gets crazier.

evolving_doors

Jamfa wrote: »

A turnout of only 40% translates into only 22% of ASTI members voting No. This is a hardly a strong mandate. Given that the ballot papers are delivered directly to you and all you have to do is place an X and post it back this raises serious issues about apathy among teachers....

Interesting interpretation.

I would counter that by saying that the only 'apathy' was on the Yes side of the ASTI... such lack lustre support for it!!.

Jamfa wrote: »

There are lots of unresolved issues about the Junior Cycle reforms but do most teachers simply not care!

Well I think everything has been resolved now for the moment.
It would appear that most who voted did care. And the majority who voted No cared that little bit more!

As usual a lot of the staffroom were wondering what it was all about last Friday, I pointed to the language teachers (voluntary orals (and voluntary pre-orals)), I asked the teachers would they prefer the practicals/orals were run in house (usually through lunch times/before/after school) like them, or would they prefer a dept. inspector to be paid for the work? That solved that pretty quick.

Alex Meier

Only a 38% turnout. . . .This is what happens when you keep running ballots when the Government doesn't get the result it requires.

People lose faith in the democratic process.

km79

Icsics wrote: »

Any word on the POR ballot?

70:30 in favour of ind action

Icsics

Thanks km79, I presume the POR ballot was rejected?

man_no_plan

I thought only tui workplaces Where the jc is offered were balloted? A few here are suggesting that third level members had a say.

Am I wrong?

km79

Icsics wrote: »

Thanks km79, I presume the POR ballot was rejected?

still no word on this
I assume it will be accepted

RealJohn

acequion wrote: »

RealJohn, not having the time is NOT understandable. None of us have time. We're all swamped and we're all sick to death of having to constantly justify ourselves and fight a Govt who is hostile to us. But if we don't make the time we'll end up with a hell of a lot less time as the workload just gets crazier.

I agree that it is important to make the time to find out but it's easy for me to say that when I'm permanent. I'm sure there are plenty of teachers on insecure contracts who spend all of their spare time doing their utmost to try to stand out and get the security I have and I think it's understandable if they feel that their time is better spent going above and beyond their official duties in order to get it rather than find out what they're voting for when they ought to be entitled to assume that the unions are looking out for them. The fact that they should be worried about their conditions doesn't necessarily mean that they feel they can afford to.

I agree that they absolutely should make time but that doesn't mean that it's an easy decision in practice.

political analyst

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I would counter that by saying that the only 'apathy' was on the Yes side of the ASTI... such lack lustre support for it!!.

Why do so many ASTI members not care whether or not the new Junior Cycle assessment takes place?

political analyst

Icsics wrote: »

Any word on the POR ballot?

What does POR mean?

deiseindublin

Posts of Responsibility

Alex Meier

political analyst wrote: »

Why do so many ASTI members not care whether or not the new Junior Cycle assessment takes place?

They voted NO to Croke Park . . . It passed.

They voted NO twice to Haddington Road. . . It passed.

Perhaps many members have come to the conclusion that this will pass also . . so what's the point?

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

Why do so many ASTI members not care whether or not the new Junior Cycle assessment takes place?

I don't know TBH, maybe they see that as 'politics'... i.e. 'nothing to do with us, now move along to class' type thinking.

Do you have a theory yourself?

Benicetomonty

38% is a v disappointing turnout imo. That figure will be torn into over the next few days. The apathy is astonishing, although maybe not as much as the TUI's acceptance...

evolving_doors

Alex Meier wrote: »

They voted NO to Croke Park . . . It passed.

They voted NO twice to Haddington Road. . . It passed.

Perhaps many members have come to the conclusion that this will pass also . . so what's the point?

I'd agree, the language in the media in the moment seems to portray the unions in turmoil, in that it's now up to them to go and 'fix it'. Look at the headline in the Irish times (In education section):

"Teachers threaten further industrial action after split vote".

Also Joe Humphries other 'pronouncements' about what is going to happen as of today!

[*]September 2015: Following the summer school break, balloting takes place.

[*]Spring 2016: Initial classroom based assessments will be carried out for second-year students in English. Such assessments will be extended to Science and Business Studies the following year, rolling out to all other subjects by 2020.

[*]September 2017: The JCPA will be issued for the first time, for the English component only, extending to other subjects by 2022.

So what's the point of voting if Joe says it's going to happen anyway?

REgarding the 3rd level voting, I'd be interested to know how many voted from this sector anyhow.

Was there a section on the TUI ballot envelope to state the sector/school/college?

joebloggs32

man_no_plan wrote: »

I thought only tui workplaces Where the jc is offered were balloted? A few here are suggesting that third level members had a say.

Am I wrong?

I think you're right. As far as I know the 2nd and 3rd level sectors don't vote on ballots that won't concern them.

man_no_plan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'd agree, the language in the media in the moment seems to portray the unions in turmoil, in that it's now up to them to go and 'fix it'. Look at the headline in the Irish times (In education section):

"Teachers threaten further industrial action after split vote".

Also Joe Humphries other 'pronouncements' about what is going to happen as of today!



So what's the point of voting if Joe says it's going to happen anyway?

REgarding the 3rd level voting, I'd be interested to know how many voted from this sector anyhow.

Was there a section on the TUI ballot envelope to state the sector/school/college?

Only workplaces offering jc were balloted, found it in tui news.

tosh999

Vote, vote? what vote? Oh that vote. Sure that won't affect my subject for another few years ......

r93kaey5p2izun

man_no_plan wrote: »

Only workplaces offering jc were balloted, found it in tui news.

Yes. But FE teachers in dual centres (lots of ETB schools) could vote. Our hairdressing, beauty, massage etc tutors all got to vote Yes to something that will never affect them.

I'm disgusted but not surprised that TUI accepted. Once the officials recommended it then it was inevitable. Delighted the ASTI rejected but the pathetic turnout is incredible. If I could join the ASTI I would. High time we had united representation. This split is a nonsense.

acequion

Calamitising about the turn out and the tui capitulation is not going to do us any good. Nor are the doom and gloom predictions. The fact is that the majority of our union have said NO. That shows courage. No doubt the knives will be out for us big time and are already. Ingrid Miley was a disgrace on the news. As was O Sullivan with her bullying attitude. The media spin will go into over drive and we'll be portrayed as the ones holding back the brave new Ireland.

Be that as it may, we must hold firm on this. Now is the time to make the union our servant and not our master.

acequion

It appears that many want to cross over to asti,but that can't be done during a dispute. We're always in dispute lately. But having two unions,where one always goes crying back to daddy Enda, is indeed a joke.

man_no_plan

Jayceon Zealous Ballistics wrote: »

Yes. But FE teachers in dual centres (lots of ETB schools) could vote. Our hairdressing, beauty, massage etc tutors all got to vote Yes to something that will never affect them.

I'm disgusted but not surprised that TUI accepted. Once the officials recommended it then it was inevitable. Delighted the ASTI rejected but the pathetic turnout is incredible. If I could join the ASTI I would. High time we had united representation. This split is a nonsense.

Yes but we should be clear that lecturers in IOTs weren't voting on this as had been suggested.

Is it beyond the belief of everyone here that maybe some teachers can see some value in the proposals?

Not everyone is a sheep who follows directions from the union, maybe they had a look at the new JC and said 'yeah I'm happy with that'.

I'm not saying they're right and you're wrong but give them the credit of being able to make an informed decision.

We don't want to assess our students for state certification was the mantra. That is removed now so what do we do now? Say well actually we don't want to change anything??