NEFF Dishwasher not dissolving the tablet

54and56

Hi all,

I've a NEFF dishwasher which isn't dissolving the washer tablets very much and as a result the loads are not being cleaned.

I'm guessing there is a blockage or some sort of build up in the pipe/tube feeding the unit the tablet sits in but I've no idea how to flush this unit out or how to remove it to check for a blockage.

Any suggestions? Here's a photo of the unit with a partially dissolved tablet from the last attempted wash. I'd say the tablet has only been dissolved 10%.



Appreciate any tips/recommendations for fixing this as the machine is in PMO other than this issue.

54and56

38 views and no response I was really hoping for someone to say "all you need to do is......" and I'd be sorted. I guess not.

If it's not a DIY job is there a diswasher service anyone can recommend (PM if necessary) or do I just call NEFF?

Alun

On my Whirlpool there's no water supply to the detergent dispenser as far as I can see. I assume the tablet or powder either just drops out when the flap opens and/or is washed out by water coming out of the end of the upper washer arm, which is at about the same level when the door is closed..

It might be worth seeing if the upper washer arm blocked in any way? It happens quite easily with small bits of bone or lemon pips, that sort of thing. They're usually fairly easy to remove to check.

That picture shows the tablet still in the dispenser, did the flap open during the wash or did you open it manually afterwards? As Alun says the flap should be open (at the end of the cycle).

The Red Ace

The reason your dishwasher is not dissolving the powder and most likely doing a poor wash is because the spray arm jets are clogged with food particles, remove them and clean the out. while you are at it check the machine when loaded that your dinner plates are not restricting the rotation of the spray arms. Usually the cause of the blockage is because you are not locating the filters into position correctly which will then allow them to float when the machine fills and thus they cant trap the debris. On occasion the circulation pump impellar can become clogged up and then you will need someone like me to dismantle it and free it up

54and56

The Red Ace wrote: »

Usually the cause of the blockage is because you are not locating the filters into position correctly which will then allow them to float when the machine fills and thus they cant trap the debris.

Thanks Red Ace, appreciate the info.

I'll check the spray arms for blockages but I don't know what you mean by "not locating the filters into position". Would you mind elaborating?

54and56

Alun wrote: »

It might be worth seeing if the upper washer arm blocked in any way? It happens quite easily with small bits of bone or lemon pips, that sort of thing. They're usually fairly easy to remove to check.

Hi Alun,

Thanks for the suggestion. I unclipped the upper spray arm, disassembled it, ran water from the tap through it, put it back together and clipped it back in. I'll see if that cleared anything out and makes a difference.

The Red Ace

when you look into the base of your d/w it has two filters ,one rectangular and the other the micro filter circular,each have a marker, when the rect. is in situ push down the micro filter and rotate until the two marks line up otherwise they will lift up and float when the machine fills and not do their job

54and56

The Red Ace wrote: »

when you look into the base of your d/w it has two filters ,one rectangular and the other the micro filter circular,each have a marker, when the rect. is in situ push down the micro filter and rotate until the two marks line up otherwise they will lift up and float when the machine fills and not do their job

Thanks Red Ace. I took out the filters, cleaned them and replaced them. There wasn't much debris in them and there isn't a problem with the machine emptying (i.e. the machine doesn't flood or leave a pool of un-drained water) so I'm reasonably confident the problem isn't related to the filter or a blocked waste water pump.

I also took off and leaned out the spray arms. Again I didn't notice that any of the eyelets were blocked but I nevertheless used a toothpick to ensure all were free and when I run water from the tap through them they all seem to spray ok.

I'm inclined to think that the reason the detergent tablet isn't being dissolved and the dishes aren't being cleaned is that there is somehow a problem with the inbound water supply. To check this I put a bowl into the bottom basket and ran the 18 minute pre-rinse program. At the end the bowl was pretty much full so there is a supply of water getting through the spray arms.

I'm therefore a bit stumped.

I'm going to load the dishwasher after dinner this evening as per normal and see what the outcome is. Fingers crossed I have somehow managed to fix it!!

Cakerbaker

I'm not familiar with this model of dishwasher but we have had this problem the odd time with ours if something is very close to the detergent dispenser as it has prevented the door opening properly and the tablet popping out. I now make sure that part of the machine never has anything near the dispenser.

Alun

Another thing to check when you load it again, as RedAce said, is to check that the upper spray arm is rotating freely and not catching on anything in the bottom tray like a plate or something in the cutlery basket like a big serving spoon or something.

fineso.mom

A friend had that problem and just stopped using the tablet dispenser.there was something wrong with the catch. He just throws the tablet in the bottom of the dishwasher. Seems to work ok.

wiz569

I would imagine, regardless of whether there are any blockages or dirty/faulty spray arms,that if the tablet is not been discharged from the holder then your dishes wont get washed properly,its supposed to be discharged onto the floor of the dishwasher where it will completely dissolve

54and56

Hi Alun, thanks for the suggestion. I did check that both spray arms rotate freely before putting on a quick wash earlier and they rotated fine.

Fineso.mom and wiz569, I think you might be on the money. The spray arms are clear, the filters are clear and the waste water pump is doing it's job so there's a good chance the problem is the tablet holder isn't discharging the tablet at all or perhaps way too late.

When I opened the dishwasher after the quick wash which just finished my greasy breakfast plate (with some egg yolk etc) remained as I put it into the machine but interestingly the tablet had dropped onto it and hadn't dissolved, see the picture below.



Given I know from the pre-rinse I did earlier that water is being sprayed I'm guessing the problem is the tablet isn't being discharged until quite close to the end or indee dat the end of the cycle as the tablet in the photo above was barely damp.

I've just run another quick wash with the tablet thrown onto the floor of the machine. I'll see how that works out.

Now, back to the big match!!!

Going Forward

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Hi Alun, thanks for the suggestion. I did check that both spray arms rotate freely before putting on a quick wash earlier and they rotated fine.

Fineso.mom and wiz569, I think you might be on the money. The spray arms are clear, the filters are clear and the waste water pump is doing it's job so there's a good chance the problem is the tablet holder isn't discharging the tablet at all or perhaps way too late.

When I opened the dishwasher after the quick wash which just finished my greasy breakfast plate (with some egg yolk etc) remained as I put it into the machine but interestingly the tablet had dropped onto it and hadn't dissolved, see the picture below.



Given I know from the pre-rinse I did earlier that water is being sprayed I'm guessing the problem is the tablet isn't being discharged until quite close to the end or indee dat the end of the cycle as the tablet in the photo above was barely damp.

I've just run another quick wash with the tablet thrown onto the floor of the machine. I'll see how that works out.

Now, back to the big match!!!

Try running it empty, full program on the hottest setting.

Happened mine ages ago, sorted itself out somehow!

54and56

Going Forward wrote: »

Try running it empty, full program on the hottest setting.

Happened mine ages ago, sorted itself out somehow!

Might have to try that. It just finished a quick wash and the results are poor. The tablet remains on the floor of the machine looking more or less as it was when I put it in and the plates with breakfast grease, egg and another with Nultella are still dirty. There is water on them and some of the dirt looks like it was simply washed away with some jets of water but everything is quite wet and it looks like there was no drying undertaken at all as the inside of the machine is still wet (not flooded though) and cold.

I'll try putting it on a super wash and see what that does. My machine only has a set number of wash programs, I can't manually set or adjust them. It's basically Pre Rinse -> Quick Wash -> Auto Delicate Wash -> Auto Wash -> Auto Super Wash.

This is baffling.

wiz569

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Might have to try that. It just finished a quick wash and the results are poor. The tablet remains on the floor of the machine looking more or less as it was when I put it in and the plates with breakfast grease, egg and another with Nultella are still dirty. There is water on them and some of the dirt looks like it was simply washed away with some jets of water but everything is quite wet and it looks like there was no drying undertaken at all as the inside of the machine is still wet (not flooded though) and cold.

I'll try putting it on a super wash and see what that does. My machine only has a set number of wash programs, I can't manually set or adjust them. It's basically Pre Rinse -> Quick Wash -> Auto Delicate Wash -> Auto Wash -> Auto Super Wash.

This is baffling.

Could be the heating element so,after a quick wash it should have been hot and steamy when you opened the door

54and56

wiz569 wrote: »

Could be the heating element so,after a quick wash it should have been hot and steamy when you opened the door

Do you know if the heating element also heats the water being supplied to the machine? If so that would explain the cold water in the machine and the lack of any drying.

Is replacement of a heating element economically viable or is it replacement machine time?

They are replaceable units usually located under the floor next to the pump, easily accessible from the outside after removing the bottom cover.

wiz569

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Do you know if the heating element also heats the water being supplied to the machine? If so that would explain the cold water in the machine and the lack of any drying.

Yes m8 it does,also creates the warm air to dry the dishes

Is replacement of a heating element economically viable or is it replacement machine time?

They are around the €70-€90 mark and although I have never fitted one I would if I had to

The Red Ace

whether it heats or not the tablet should wash out of the soap dispenser, its water pressure from the circulation pump that removes it, op do a simple test, with the machine empty set the two spray arms in any given position making a note where you have positioned them, switch on the machine and let it wash for a minute after filling, the spray arms should have moved if you open it up after a minute, if they have not moved there is a blockage , more than likely the plastic wrapping off the tablets that haven't dissolved.

54and56

The Red Ace wrote: »

whether it heats or not the tablet should wash out of the soap dispenser, its water pressure from the circulation pump that removes it, op do a simple test, with the machine empty set the two spray arms in any given position making a note where you have positioned them, switch on the machine and let it wash for a minute after filling, the spray arms should have moved if you open it up after a minute, if they have not moved there is a blockage , more than likely the plastic wrapping off the tablets that haven't dissolved.

You're the man Red Ace. At the end of the Auto Super Wash the plates etc were still dirty (although less so) and the tablet was still in the dispenser partly dissolved but the plates were hot so the heating element is working. That's the good news.

The bad news is that I then set both spray arms so that they were lined up in a straight line front to back of the machine, removed the bottom basket and ran a pre rinse during which I opened the door twice. First time (a couple of minutes in) there was lots of water sloshing out of the spray arms but they were still located exactly where I had positioned them. I then let it run another 7-8 minutes and took another look. the bottom arm had moved amount a quarter turn but I'm certain what moved it was the water falling from the spray arm above rather than whatever is supposed to spin the arms.

So, it now seems the problem is that the arms aren't spinning thus the tablet isn't getting hit with water and not dissolving and the plates etc are not being sprayed from all angles. All that's happening is the arms are pouring water down onto the plates which is having some minimal impact but isn't cleaning anything.

Question now is, what is stopping the arms from spinning and how do I (or you?) fix it?

I had this issue a few years ago with our whirlpool dishwasher, it was the pump had lost its power (Askol type) it would keep stalling and was unable to push the water through the system. Is your pump noisy?

I swapped out the pump and solved the issue.

Edit: here's the original thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73307539

54and56

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I had this issue a few years ago with our whirlpool dishwasher, it was the pump had lost its power (Askol type) it would keep stalling and was unable to push the water through the system. Is your pump noisy?

I swapped out the pump and solved the issue.

Edit: here's the original thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73307539

Thanks DolanBaker, I'm not hearing any noise or feeling any vibration but it may well be that the pump has died all together. Not sure I have the skills to replace it myself if that's the case.

The Red Ace

As Dolan Baker says it could be the circulation pump but I doubt it, if it was a whirlpool it definitely would be faulty, not so with Bosch/Siemens/Neff range up to now, the pump needs removing and the impellar/body housing and associated pipework checked for obstruction, on the odd model its quite easy to access the pump by removing a clipped in plate in the base but on the most of them you need to know your onions as you need to remove the complete base, if you cant tackle the job yourself get your regular service guy to investigate as its worth sorting out. as I said previously the only reason for blockages is incorrect fitting of filters allowing stuff into the pumping system

54and56

The Red Ace wrote: »

As Dolan Baker says it could be the circulation pump but I doubt it, if it was a whirlpool it definitely would be faulty, not so with Bosch/Siemens/Neff range up to now, the pump needs removing and the impellar/body housing and associated pipework checked for obstruction, on the odd model its quite easy to access the pump by removing a clipped in plate in the base but on the most of them you need to know your onions as you need to remove the complete base, if you cant tackle the job yourself get your regular service guy to investigate as its worth sorting out. as I said previously the only reason for blockages is incorrect fitting of filters allowing stuff into the pumping system

Hi Red Ace, if you're in the appliance repair business and this is something you can repair I'd be delighted if you'd PM'd me to arrange a call out, assuming the Stillorgan/Sandyford area is convenient for you.

The Red Ace

PM sent

54and56

So my little drama continues unfortunately. I called NEFF to organise an engineer but by the end of the call the visit was cancelled. It turns out the two spray arms in my machine operate differently. The top spray arm (the one which is likely the culprit as it's that one which I understand sprays the detergent tablet and dissolves it) is only driven by water pressure whereas the bottom spray arm is driven by the motor.

I find it hard to believe the upper spray arm is suddenly not spinning due to low pressure as the machine is connected to the mains and there is tons of pressure to the cold water tap right beside the machine. How could the water pressure be flawless for seven years and all of a sudden is consistently not strong enough? I could understand if the pressure dropped for a day or two due to a localised problem but that isn't the case.

I'm a bit stumped as the NEFF people said low water pressure isn't a machine fault so their engineer can't do anything.

I guess I need a plumber??

Was the "low water pressure" diagnosed over the phone!
Has the inlet pipe got kinked or obstructed?

54and56

Deleted User wrote: »

Was the "low water pressure" diagnosed over the phone!

Kind of. They asked me to describe the problem so I told them the test I did where I set the spray arms in a straight line, started the wash cycle and opened the door a few minutes later only to see the top arm still in the same location. That was the trigger for them saying if the top arm isn't rotating it must be a water pressure issue assuming I had already cleaned the eyelets etc which I had.

Deleted User wrote: »

Has the inlet pipe got kinked or obstructed?

Not sure. It's a built in unit so I'm a bit nervous about pulling it out and maybe ripping something off the back in the process!!

The Red Ace

JsJ sorry to hear these guys are basically putting you off without seeing the dw, , there is a small cam motor in the heater assembly which diverts the water flow to either the top or bottom spray arms one at a time thus allowing the dw to operate with a low volume of water but it is the same circulation pump which does all the pumping, you could take off the bottom spray arm and look down with a torchlight, if the pipe looks as if it has a blank end run the machine for a few minutes, if the cam motor is working the rotating cam should move and the next time you check it the opening should look different, if it hasn't moved there is a failure of the cam motor but the amount of times this happens as against blockages within the impellar of the circulation pump is rare. if your dw isn't integrated it should pull out of the kitchen unit fairly easily

54and56

The Red Ace wrote: »

JsJ sorry to hear these guys are basically putting you off without seeing the dw, , there is a small cam motor in the heater assembly which diverts the water flow to either the top or bottom spray arms one at a time thus allowing the dw to operate with a low volume of water but it is the same circulation pump which does all the pumping, you could take off the bottom spray arm and look down with a torchlight, if the pipe looks as if it has a blank end run the machine for a few minutes, if the cam motor is working the rotating cam should move and the next time you check it the opening should look different, if it hasn't moved there is a failure of the cam motor but the amount of times this happens as against blockages within the impellar of the circulation pump is rare. if your dw isn't integrated it should pull out of the kitchen unit fairly easily

Hi Red Ace, thanks so much for the follow up. Your explanation makes total sense. I'll have a peek into the lower spray arm pipe as you suggest.

Unfortunately my DW is built in so I'm reluctant to star pulling it out, I'll likely do more damage than good.

thebeeb

A heating element was suggested earlier and a pic was put up of the tablet stick in between dishes in the bottom rack. So can we establish if its heating or not. Put on a quick wash in the dishwasher. Position both spray arms so that they are perpendicular to the door. Wait 10-15mins open the door, the water should be hot. Now take note of the spray arms, did they rotate?

54and56

thebeeb wrote: »

A heating element was suggested earlier and a pic was put up of the tablet stick in between dishes in the bottom rack. So can we establish if its heating or not. Put on a quick wash in the dishwasher. Position both spray arms so that they are perpendicular to the door. Wait 10-15mins open the door, the water should be hot. Now take note of the spray arms, did they rotate?

Thanks thebeeb, I did a similar exercise last week but only waited a minute or two. I'll put on a normal wash later, position and photo the spray arms and then open it 15 minutes in and take another photo.

FWIW I actually got a plumber to the house this morning on an unrelated matter (fitting some new taps in bathrooms) and I asked him to check. He confirmed the DW is receiving supply from the mains and there is strong mains pressure coming into the house but he wouldn't touch the DW in any way. He's been burned a few times trying to help people and it turned into something he's not qualified to address which I do respect.

I'll see what the upshot of the new test is ref the spray arms and heating element and if NEFF won't send someone out I'll just have to call out an independent engineer to diagnose and fix it.

thebeeb

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Thanks thebeeb, I did a similar exercise last week but only waited a minute or two. I'll put on a normal wash later, position and photo the spray arms and then open it 15 minutes in and take another photo.

FWIW I actually got a plumber to the house this morning on an unrelated matter (fitting some new taps in bathrooms) and I asked him to check. He confirmed the DW is receiving supply from the mains and there is strong mains pressure coming into the house but he wouldn't touch the DW in any way. He's been burned a few times trying to help people and it turned into something he's not qualified to address which I do respect.

I'll see what the upshot of the new test is ref the spray arms and heating element and if NEFF won't send someone out I'll just have to call out an independent engineer to diagnose and fix it.

Put on a QUICK wash not a normal. As in a quick wash it heats straight away.

You would be better off getting an independent engineer as NEFF will cost a fortune if u wanted them to call out.

54and56

thebeeb wrote: »

Put on a QUICK wash not a normal. As in a quick wash it heats straight away.

Will do.

thebeeb wrote: »

You would be better off getting an independent engineer as NEFF will cost a fortune if u wanted them to call out.

€95 call out + parts is what they quoted.

54and56

thebeeb wrote: »

Put on a QUICK wash not a normal. As in a quick wash it heats straight away.

You would be better off getting an independent engineer as NEFF will cost a fortune if u wanted them to call out.

OK, put on a quick wash but before I did I took the following pictures:-

As Red Ace suggested I took off the bottom spray arm and took a picture of what was down there, here it is



I then lined up the two spray arms to point in the same direction and turned on the DW to a quick wash cycle with a fresh detergent tablet in the dispenser. Here's the photo



I then let the machine run for 10 minutes and opened it. There was loads of steam and loads of hot water being pumped out of the spray arms which quickly stopped but unfortunately the spray arms themselves were in EXACTLY the location I'd started them in, here's the photo



You can also see that the tablet had been ejected correctly from the dispenser but hasn't dissolved much and is sitting on the base/floor just under the spray arm.

For completeness here is the lower spray arm pipe after the wash



I guess this means there actually is a problem with the pump?

thebeeb

Since it is heating, red ace is correct. As both the spray arms aren't rotating, theres a problem with the circulating pump. Could be an expensive fix im afraid.

wiz569

Seems to be the same problem,might help if you decide to do it yourself

http://www.justanswer.com/uk-appliance/2m4wq-inbuilt-neff-dishwasher-drains-fine-when.html

54and56

wiz569 wrote: »

Seems to be the same problem,might help if you decide to do it yourself

http://www.justanswer.com/uk-appliance/2m4wq-inbuilt-neff-dishwasher-drains-fine-when.html

Ha, no chance of me doing that myself, not in a million years!!!

Bit depressed that of all the things it could be it looks like it's the most expensive thing possible

Any idea what the circulation pumps will cost? It looks like I can get a new replacement machine delivered and installed for between €500 and €600 from Power City.

Je_suis_Jean

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Ha, no chance of me doing that myself, not in a million years!!!

Bit depressed that of all the things it could be it looks like it's the most expensive thing possible

Any idea what the circulation pumps will cost? It looks like I can get a new replacement machine delivered and installed for between €500 and €600 from Power City.

A replacement pump will be a lot less than that, that's for sure.
A quick google is returning prices in the €200 range for the pump + fitting.

The Red Ace

JsJ as a last throw of the dice try this, remove the top and bottom spray arms, this will give the pump free flow, set it for a hot wash and if you are lucky it may spit out whatever is restricting it, btw the pump is ok as you have already said you have seen water coming out of the spray arms, even if it needed a rebuild of an impellar and seals kit are c 70 euro, the most complex part of fixing this is the base has to be removed to gain access, they are just different to all the other dw/s

ellewood

What does it sound like - does it sound like it did before it started acting up? or does it sound like its under pressure als does it vibrate/shudder?

Like someone else said its doubtful if it is the motor (unlike the whirlpool alright) the most likely cause is something restricting/blocking the impellor in the wash motor or the pipes leading/coming from the motor - most likely just take out, clean and put back together will sort youre problem

54and56

Hi all,

Got the NEFF engineer out yesterday. He changed a water inlet sensor (wasn't filling up enough?) but also identified a blockage / build up of grease in the system somewhere which the filters hadn't prevented. He dosed the machine a few times with a large syringe and loads of dirty water with black bits came out.

Machine works perfectly again.

€115 all in and no circulation pump required .

Thanks to you all, particularly Red Ace, for the steers you gave me. I'm far more knowledgeable now on how the DW works but also what needs to be done in terms of pro active maintenance to prevent such a build up in future.

Cheers all.