Religious oppression in Ireland

lufties

I'm interested in examples of how Ireland was oppressed by religion throughout the last century. I recently saw a video on youtube about how in the 1960s, books and people with 'certain' views were banned from the country. I thought is was incredible. Even the forefathers of the state were apparently thought to be the most conservative revolutionaries there ever was.

This thread isn't to sneer or look down on generations past, but I just find it fascinating how different things were back then. Personally, as a child of the 1980s, I probably didn't experience the full wrath of the catholic church, but I'm sure it has shaped my generation in a lot of ways.

Cabaal

1979 - Monty Python's Life of Brian banned in Ireland, ban lifted in 1987
1983 - Monty Python's The Meaning of Life banned in Ireland, ban lifted in 1990

These were banned only because the catholic church did not agree with the content,


From a none media stand point, I had a relation that was a priest in the 1940's or 50's (not sure which), he decided to leave the priesthood which was a massive no no at the time. The Bishop told him he could never return to his home town and the local parish priest visited his mother and told her to destroy all the photos of him (she didn't as she didn't agree with being told this).

So off he went and he traveled to the UK, got married and had children. In the late 70's or early 80's my mother decided she wanted to see if she could track him down and she eventually located him. She eventually got him to agree to visit Ireland.

As part of visiting Ireland he of course visited certain relatives, one of the relatives commented at the time that she didn't want him coming in her front door incase anyone would see him and that he had to come in the back door of the house.

Thankfully we've moved on from this sort of twisted mindset where the church wanted a persons entire home town and family to turn against them. Sickening stuff really.


Luckily although my parents would consider themselves catholic without a doubt they always knew the church had some awful abuse of power in Ireland (McQuaid being one big example). My parents also likely experienced far more different situations with the public due to their work (a pub/shop) so I guess they saw reality for what it was instead of some idealistic view of what life should be as advertised by the catholic church.

I always find it amusing that my Dad tells a story about a regular in the pub that once said to him "I'd love to be like you, you don't care if you don't go to mass". My Dad asked why can't the man just not go to mass if he didn't want to, the man answered that he had to. A grown man feels they have to do something they clearly didn't wish to....so very very odd.

Akrasia

My wife has relatives whose baby died before she had a chance to be baptised, and the local parish priest refused to allow them to bury the baby in the parish cemetery.

lufties

Akrasia wrote: »

My wife has relatives whose baby died before she had a chance to be baptised, and the local parish priest refused to allow them to bury the baby in the parish cemetery.

Thats horrific, I heard it was the same for victims of suicide.

lufties

Cabaal wrote: »

1979 - Monty Python's Life of Brian banned in Ireland, ban lifted in 1987
1983 - Monty Python's The Meaning of Life banned in Ireland, ban lifted in 1990

These were banned only because the catholic church did not agree with the content,


From a none media stand point, I had a relation that was a priest in the 1940's or 50's (not sure which), he decided to leave the priesthood which was a massive no no at the time. The Bishop told him he could never return to his home town and the local parish priest visited his mother and told her to destroy all the photos of him (she didn't as she didn't agree with being told this).


So off he went and he traveled to the UK, got married and had children. In the late 70's or early 80's my mother decided she wanted to see if she could track him down and she eventually located him. She eventually got him to agree to visit Ireland.

As part of visiting Ireland he of course visited certain relatives, one of the relatives commented at the time that she didn't want him coming in her front door incase anyone would see him and that he had to come in the back door of the house.

Thankfully we've moved on from this sort of twisted mindset where the church wanted a persons entire home town and family to turn against them. Sickening stuff really.


Luckily although my parents would consider themselves catholic without a doubt they always knew the church had some awful abuse of power in Ireland (McQuaid being one big example). My parents also likely experienced far more different situations with the public due to their work (a pub/shop) so I guess they saw reality for what it was instead of some idealistic view of what life should be as advertised by the catholic church.

I always find it amusing that my Dad tells a story about a regular in the pub that once said to him "I'd love to be like you, you don't care if you don't go to mass". My Dad asked why can't the man just not go to mass if he didn't want to, the man answered that he had to. A grown man feels they have to do something they clearly didn't wish to....so very very odd.

My folks are catholic aswell, and still go to mass. I can't understand how people still attend. My dad(as much as I love him) is brainwashed by catholicism still. One of his lifelong friends' recently decided it was all bull**** and left the church. My dad kind of sneered at this in a condescending manner. I must say I felt disappointed.

frostyjacks

Not being able to watch Monty Python was hardly living under oppression. I wonder if people in North Korea are yearning to watch those films.

I think society in general was quite oppressive towards minorities back in the day, of which the Church was but one element. But it's sort of like a sponge now to soak up everyone's discontent. The lay people that got their hands dirty seem to have got off lightly.

lufties

frostyjacks wrote: »

Not being able to watch Monty Python was hardly living under oppression. I wonder if people in North Korea are yearning to watch those films.

I think society in general was quite oppressive towards minorities back in the day, of which the Church was but one element. But it's sort of like a sponge now to soak up everyone's discontent. The lay people that got their hands dirty seem to have got off lightly.

Any chance you could back this up with any something?

frostyjacks

lufties wrote: »

Any chance you could back this up with any something?

The people who sent their daughters to the laundries, and the men who knocked them up. Do people think priests drove round in vans, abducting single mothers and taking them to the laundries? They were sent there.

JohnBee

frostyjacks wrote: »

The people who sent their daughters to the laundries, and the men who knocked them up. Do people think priests drove round in vans, abducting single mothers and taking them to the laundries? They were sent there.

And what do you think created the context for this? Was it some secular dislike of unmarried mothers? Some primitive fear that they were witches?

Or was it still the all pervasive power of the church that meant these mothers were considered unclean. And when they arrived in the laundries, was it secular females/males that beat and abused them? No, it was nuns and priests.

lufties

frostyjacks wrote: »

The people who sent their daughters to the laundries, and the men who knocked them up. Do people think priests drove round in vans, abducting single mothers and taking them to the laundries? They were sent there.

The whole thing was an abuse of their position, the state is ultimately responsible for allowing such abuse to happen.

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

The people who sent their daughters to the laundries, and the men who knocked them up. Do people think priests drove round in vans, abducting single mothers and taking them to the laundries? They were sent there.

Would that be the people that sent their daughters to the laundries after the local priest paid a visit perhaps?

Or maybe would it be the parents who pressure on their daughter telling her she had to give up her baby out of wedlock after a visit from the local priest?

I had this discussion with my parents, they said it was very common for the priest to call down and put pressure on family's to get rid of the baby etc or to put pressure on the man to marry the women.

My mother mentioned one instance where the priest called down to a women and told her that her daughter should give the baby up, the women who by all accounts was a right battleaxe told the priests to mind his own business and throw him out of the house. She helped her daughter raise the baby instead.

She was very much the exception in those sorts of situations though,

Huntergonzo

Sure you could probably write page after page about how the catholic church oppressed people in this country, Ireland was a theocracy in all but name for many years. My father (who's isn't particularly religious) was born in 1942 and he talks very candidly about how they had "too much control", he remembers his mother calling him in every evening to say the rosary and if he didn't there'd be war, local farmers needing permission to make hay on a sunday, the local priest accosting a man at his own doorstep over an unmarried woman living with him (the horror) etc etc etc

The women and children of Ireland were horrifically oppressed by the church and it's teachings, we had women forced into slave labour at the magdalene laundries for example, many children born out of wedlock were confiscated, many were abused sexually, physically and mentally, others were sold off, and some died, I saw many of their gravestones when I was working down in Letterfrack for a couple of days at the old industrial school, it's a heartbreaking sight.

There's other things as well such as minister for health Dr Noel Browne having to resign in 1951 over the Mother and Child Scheme he wanted to introduce which was staunchly opposed by the RCC and writer John McGahern who lost his job as a teacher after writing a novel called The Dark in 1965, which was deemed to be pornographic and banned of course.

But even today the church still endeavours to oppress as many people in Ireland as possible, just look at their opposition to the recent gay marriage referendum, their opposition to abortion, opposition to women priests, opposition to contraception, opposition to premarital sex, their continued indoctrination of children in public schools (which is crucial to their survival of course) etc etc. Now luckily for us their evil beliefs don't carry the same weight as they used to but that's only because we as a nation are far more educated now than we were 50+ years ago, I'd imagine the church would still rule with an iron fist if they could get away with it.

I don't watch the savage eye but apparently this clip was only recently banned by RTE (but perhaps now they've shown it? I don't know): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7soRJK92zg

Ps, finally don't forget that in 2009 Ireland passed a new blasphemy law, yes that's right only 6 years ago, freedom of speech is not welcome in Ireland!

Links234

frostyjacks wrote: »

Not being able to watch Monty Python was hardly living under oppression.

Because state censorship based on religious values is never OK, doesn't matter if to you it was "hardly living under oppression" but the banning of art because it offended religious sensibilities most certainly is oppression. And it didn't begin and end with Monty Python either, Ireland has a long history of censorship and banning films the church didn't like, the Exorcist was banned, as was A Clockwork Orange, not to mention films critical of the state such as The Rocky Road To Dublin.

Hmm, banning things critical of the status quo certainly seems like oppression to me.

frostyjacks

Links234 wrote: »

Because state censorship based on religious values is never OK, doesn't matter if to you it was "hardly living under oppression" but the banning of art because it offended religious sensibilities most certainly is oppression. And it didn't begin and end with Monty Python either, Ireland has a long history of censorship and banning films the church didn't like, the Exorcist was banned, as was A Clockwork Orange, not to mention films critical of the state such as The Rocky Road To Dublin.

Hmm, banning things critical of the status quo certainly seems like oppression to me.

Oppression, as I understand it, means unjust or cruel acts of imposition. Censorship is not imposing acts upon citizens, it would be oppression if the Church forced people to watch certain religious films. I don't hear people in Britain talk about being oppressed by not seeing Clockwork Orange etc.

Links234

frostyjacks wrote: »

Oppression, as I understand it, means unjust or cruel acts of imposition. Censorship is not imposing acts upon citizens, it would be oppression if the Church forced people to watch certain religious films. I don't hear people in Britain talk about being oppressed by not seeing Clockwork Orange etc.

Censorship of art and expression isn't oppression, you heard it here first folks! :rolleyes:

A Clockwork Orange was an interesting case, because Kubrick himself asked the distributors to withdraw the film after him and his family recieving death threats and protests because it was linked to the murder of a homeless person. But that aside the UK has it's own sordid history of censorship too, the whole "video nasty" scare and the video recordings act, Mary Whitehouse's moral crusade. And before you question the artistic legitamacy of dodgy 80's horror movies, it's still censorship whether you like the thing that's being censored or not.

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

Oppression, as I understand it, means unjust or cruel acts of imposition. Censorship is not imposing acts upon citizens, it would be oppression if the Church forced people to watch certain religious films. I don't hear people in Britain talk about being oppressed by not seeing Clockwork Orange etc.

Oppression is also by stopping people express things, your suppressing freedom of thought etc, banning content is part of this oppression.

It ensures that people don't get any ideas and think out of line,

Why do you think North Korea doesn't want its citizens watching Western movies, using the proper internet instead of their own restricted network etc? It doesn't want them getting any different ideas. There's a reason why the book 1984 doesn't exist in NK library's you know,

Banning films like Life Of Brian was a form of the oppression by the Irish Government in hand with the Catholic church, it was to ensure nobody got any ideas and thought differently about the church.

Huntergonzo

Yes generally speaking the banning of material is unquestionably a form of oppression because it restricts contrary views and makes people obedient rather than curious.

Just as a matter of interest I recently went looking for a book by John Cooney called 'John Charles McQuaid: Ruler Of Catholic Ireland', I tried several large and small book shops in Blanchardstown and Dublin city centre but couldn't find it anywhere and I was told in one of the larger shops that it was hard to get in Ireland and would have to ordered in from the UK, I eventually got it off Amazon but I haven't started reading it yet.

Now I'm not an avid reader and I generally don't read books about religion so I'm just wondering would this simply be because the book isn't in demand (although I was told in a couple of places that people do ask for it) or could there be more sinister forces at work?

Pawwed Rig

Forced indoctrination of children with still goes on today is oppression in my book.

lazygal

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Yes generally speaking the banning of material is unquestionably a form of oppression because it restricts contrary views and makes people obedient rather than curious.

Just as a matter of interest I recently went looking for a book by John Cooney called 'John Charles McQuaid: Ruler Of Catholic Ireland', I tried several large and small book shops in Blanchardstown and Dublin city centre but couldn't find it anywhere and I was told in one of the larger shops that it was hard to get in Ireland and would have to ordered in from the UK, I eventually got it off Amazon but I haven't started reading it yet.

Now I'm not an avid reader and I generally don't read books about religion so I'm just wondering would this simply be because the book isn't in demand (although I was told in a couple of places that people do ask for it) or could there be more sinister forces at work?

More likely a small print run and or bookshops not really sure if it'll be a seller.

lazygal

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Forced indoctrination of children with still goes on today is oppression in my book.

And religious control of essential services like schools and hospitals.

frostyjacks

Yes, truly the Church still runs this country. Look at how they defeated the divorce referendum, and the gay marriage referendum. When will we ever break free of their shackles etc etc.

We live in a modern, liberal republic. Perhaps the Church was once heavy handed with people, together with the State, but that's ancient history. People are free to do whatever they want now, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

Yes, truly the Church still runs this country. Look at how they defeated the divorce referendum, and the gay marriage referendum. When will we ever break free of their shackles etc etc.

Yeah, look how they tried to black mail TD's by saying that TD's that voted to pass the abortion legislation in 2013 won't get communion and also calling for any TD who voted to pass it to resign.

Funny how they tried to interfere with our democratic process by trying to black mail people using their believe in a god against them

We live in a modern, liberal republic. Perhaps the Church was once heavy handed with people, together with the State, but that's ancient history. People are free to do whatever they want now, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

People are free to do whatever they want?
Really?

Hmm, so if I don't baptise my kid they'll have no problem getting into every state funded school in Ireland and they won't be rejected based on religious ethos?
:rolleyes:

Huntergonzo

lazygal wrote: »

More likely a small print run and or bookshops not really sure if it'll be a seller.

Ye I wouldn't have thought there was much in it, just found it a bit odd that it wasn't in some of the bigger shops.

Seanachai

You have to ask yourself the question why did the newly formed church go to such trouble to hunt down the druids and the old tribal elders?. They realised the importance of religion in people's lives and they didn't want any competition for their project.

As far as I can tell organised religion is just one branch of the system needed to control a nation. You could argue that it's hold is waning in this part of the world and a form of scientism is filling the vacum, I think one is as bad as the other tbh.

They take a healthy instinct we have and then twist it to suit their own needs. If I am spiritual why do I need a middleman to bridge the connection?. I haven't been to a mass in over a decade and my mother who still has faith even stopped going in the last few years, my father stopped going long before that.

I read a book in a doctor's surgery recently that jarred me, it's made up of accounts from Dublin when people were still living in the tenements. The descriptions of the clergy and their antics are amazing, there were sinister characters linked to the church who basically snatched kids for the workhouses. Some of the kids never made it back from them, while I was reading it I thought about the people who still carry memories of those times and while conditions have drastically improved in lots of ways, would they feel we are still oppressed by the establishment in a way?.


Dublin tenements - Terry Fagan

Akrasia

Cabaal wrote: »

Oppression is also by stopping people express things, your suppressing freedom of thought etc, banning content is part of this oppression.

It ensures that people don't get any ideas and think out of line,

Why do you think North Korea doesn't want its citizens watching Western movies, using the proper internet instead of their own restricted network etc? It doesn't want them getting any different ideas. There's a reason why the book 1984 doesn't exist in NK library's you know,

Banning films like Life Of Brian was a form of the oppression by the Irish Government in hand with the Catholic church, it was to ensure nobody got any ideas and thought differently about the church.

Exactly.

The first step to breaking the grip of the church is to make it ok to laugh at it.

Dave Allen, Monty Python, Father Ted etc, all pointed out how ridiculous the cult of christ really is.

Satire is enormously powerful at changing the way people think about things. The Daily show and John Oliver are in the U.S. are doing more to educate people about politics than anything else.

frostyjacks

Cabaal wrote: »

Yeah, look how they tried to black mail TD's by saying that TD's that voted to pass the abortion legislation in 2013 won't get communion and also calling for any TD who voted to pass it to resign.

Funny how they tried to interfere with our democratic process by trying to black mail people using their believe in a god against them



People are free to do whatever they want?
Really?

Hmm, so if I don't baptise my kid they'll have no problem getting into every state funded school in Ireland and they won't be rejected based on religious ethos?
:rolleyes:

If a school run along a Catholic ethos gives preference to Catholic applicants, that's not oppression, that's common sense. People should look at some of the injustices going on around the world before they start crying about oppression here.

kunst nugget

Cabaal wrote: »

Would that be the people that sent their daughters to the laundries after the local priest paid a visit perhaps?

Or maybe would it be the parents who pressure on their daughter telling her she had to give up her baby out of wedlock after a visit from the local priest?

I had this discussion with my parents, they said it was very common for the priest to call down and put pressure on family's to get rid of the baby etc or to put pressure on the man to marry the women.

My mother mentioned one instance where the priest called down to a women and told her that her daughter should give the baby up, the women who by all accounts was a right battleaxe told the priests to mind his own business and throw him out of the house. She helped her daughter raise the baby instead.

She was very much the exception in those sorts of situations though,

I kind of get what frostyjacks is getting at - we can't transfer the guilt of the ill treatment of woman in this country solely to the Catholic Church - society at large had its part to play. I've heard horror stories over the years of people being disowned by their parents and getting kicked out of the house because they got pregnant and it had nothing to do with getting a visit from the priest - even with the mores of the day being what they were, it's hard to believe the coldness and cruelty displayed by some people towards their children.

kunst nugget

Cabaal wrote: »

Yeah, look how they tried to black mail TD's by saying that TD's that voted to pass the abortion legislation in 2013 won't get communion and also calling for any TD who voted to pass it to resign.

Funny how they tried to interfere with our democratic process by trying to black mail people using their believe in a god against them

Tbf, it's not really working out too well for them these days…

Pawwed Rig

frostyjacks wrote: »

If a school run along a Catholic ethos gives preference to Catholic applicants, that's not oppression, that's common sense. People should look at some of the injustices going on around the world before they start crying about oppression here.

It is the state funding and the lack of alternatives that is the issue. The international human rights ruling against Ireland would back that up too.

Pherekydes

frostyjacks wrote: »

If a school run along a Catholic ethos gives preference to Catholic applicants, that's not oppression, that's common sense.

A state-funded school should be accessible to all of the state's children. That's common sense.

Hotblack Desiato

lufties wrote: »

The whole thing was an abuse of their position, the state is ultimately responsible for allowing such abuse to happen.

Nice try.
The state allowed it to happen because politicians could not dare to go against the church lest they be denounced from the pulpit.
Most of them could not even conceive that the catholic church could do any wrong (some still can't.) See where that led us. All a result of the hold the church imposed upon them in childhood and upon their parents, like generations before them.

Yet these are the very people who claim to have a hotline to god on what is moral and what is not. By their acts you shall know them, indeed.