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How does a court case work?

  • 16-09-2015 10:54pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭


    How does a court case work? and do the gardai only take it to court when they have a high chance of conviction?


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    It depends on the Crime and it's seriousness. The DPP handle cases in the main and there is, no doubt, an element of securing a conviction, however in some situations a case would need to be taken regardless.

    As for how they work. Pop along and see!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    It depends on the Crime and it's seriousness. The DPP handle cases in the main and there is, no doubt, an element of securing a conviction, however in some situations a case would need to be taken regardless.

    As for how they work. Pop along and see!

    Can anyone walk in and watch a court case? never knew that! im just wondering because someone i know has been recently been up in court and the book of evidence has been produced for a serious enough offense,

    I was just wondering did book of evidence equate to high chance of guilt

    My thinking was they wouldnt go to court if they didnt think they could win?

    Would that be even close to accurate or is it just a common process and no real indication of guilt?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    evo2000 wrote: »
    Can anyone walk in and watch a court case? never knew that!

    Some cases (mainly sexual) are hear in camera (closed) but it's your constitutional right to see justice done. Personally every School kid should have to go IMHO but that's just me.
    evo2000 wrote: »
    im just wondering because someone i know has been recently been up in court and the book of evidence has been produced for a serious enough offense,

    I was just wondering did book of evidence equate to high chance of guilt

    My thinking was they wouldnt go to court if they didnt think they couldnt win?

    Would that be even close to accurate or is it just a common process and no real indication of guilt?

    The person is innocent until proven guilty and the justice system would rather see 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man convicted. If there is no evidence then the DPP might not think it's worth it - I'm open to correction on that I've very little to back up that statement - but then if there's very little evidence does that not indicate a lack of guilt? (I know, I know! :D)

    Hard as it is - don't read to much into someone being in court.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    Some cases (mainly sexual) are hear in camera (closed) but it's your constitutional right to see justice done. Personally every School kid should have to go IMHO but that's just me.



    The person is innocent until proven guilty and the justice system would rather see 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man convicted. If there is no evidence then the DPP might not think it's worth it - I'm open to correction on that I've very little to back up that statement - but then if there's very little evidence does that not indicate a lack of guilt? (I know, I know! :D)

    Hard as it is - don't read to much into someone being in court.

    But assuming there is the book of evidence does that mean a good chance the person is caught for something (not in an offical sense of course innocent till proven guilty) but in your own opinion?

    I think if theres a book of evidence its a sort of theres no smoke without fire type situation!

    I could of course be 100% wrong :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    A bit more of the duffers guide (me not you!)

    At Circuit level and above (e.g. not District) the Judge is the arbitar of law, the jury of fact.

    The prosecution must prove every part of their case to the satisfaction of the Jury. It's so interesting watching a Garda mapper prove where a house is! (:rolleyes:) The accused may remain silent and is under no obligation to prove their innocence.(In some cases it gets a little more complex but we'll skip over that!)

    A defense might be simple mitigation, e.g. I did it but this is why. It might be nothing. It might be a technical defense etc.

    The Jury will be sent out and called back in if there is a legal issue to discuss - such as admissibility of evidence.

    All in all I find it totally fascinating, but then I'm strange.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    evo2000 wrote: »
    But assuming there is the book of evidence does that mean a good chance the person is caught for something (not in an offical sense of course innocent till proven guilty) but in your own opinion?

    I think if theres a book of evidence its a sort of theres no smoke without fire type situation!

    I could of course be 100% wrong :D

    Well evidence is evidence, doesn't mean guilt. It certainly means the guards thought he was a naughty boy.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,556 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    evo2000 wrote: »
    But assuming there is the book of evidence does that mean a good chance the person is caught for something (not in an offical sense of course innocent till proven guilty) but in your own opinion?

    I think if theres a book of evidence its a sort of theres no smoke without fire type situation!

    I could of course be 100% wrong :D

    All it means is that there is a credible complaint i.e. it is possible that they commited a criminal offence. Beyond that, the evidence could be clear cut and damning, or it could be based on the statement of a person who is lying.

    The DPP considers chances of conviction but approaches from the other end of the line. When a file is sent to the DPP i.e. the Gardai want to prosecute, the DPP (well, one of her staff anyway) looks at it and decides whether there is a credible complaint. If there is not then its over, if there is she will consider whether there are any reasons not to prosecute. These can range from the accused being dead (good reason not to prosecute) to a financial decision that the cost of the prosecution is not justified when there is unlikely to be a conviction. Obviously in the most serious cases such as murder she might still prosecute even if the evidence is weak.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    All it means is that there is a credible complaint i.e. it is possible that they commited a criminal offence. Beyond that, the evidence could be clear cut and damning, or it could be based on the statement of a person who is lying.

    The DPP considers chances of conviction but approaches from the other end of the line. When a file is sent to the DPP i.e. the Gardai want to prosecute, the DPP (well, one of her staff anyway) looks at it and decides whether there is a credible complaint. If there is not then its over, if there is she will consider whether there are any reasons not to prosecute. These can range from the accused being dead (good reason not to prosecute) to a financial decision that the cost of the prosecution is not justified when there is unlikely to be a conviction. Obviously in the most serious cases such as murder she might still prosecute even if the evidence is weak.

    But like surely if it got thru the gardai and the DPP and a book of evidence is produced, it must be a high probability of a guilt/conviction, surely if the case was weak it wouldnt have made it as far with out being stopped somewhere along the line?

    Sorry if this comes across as abit dumb and maybe im being abit too simplistic!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    It a balancing act between the public's want for crime to be prosecuted and the state's desire to maximize resources.

    To be guilty of a crime though there are a number of elements to be satisfied. Not least the jury doing something unexpected.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,556 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    evo2000 wrote: »
    But like surely if it got thru the gardai and the DPP and a book of evidence is produced, it must be a high probability of a guilt/conviction, surely if the case was weak it wouldnt have made it as far with out being stopped somewhere along the line?

    Thats similar to saying that if a movie is bad surely between producers, agents, the studio etc it would be stopped along the line before being made. Yet still we get Battlefield Earths and endless Twilight movies.

    All the Gards are saying is they want to prosecute, all the DPP is saying is it seems good on paper. Neither know what the defence will do, a Judge will rule, a Jury will decide etc.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Thats similar to saying that if a movie is bad surely between producers, agents, the studio etc it would be stopped along the line before being made. Yet still we get Battlefield Earths and endless Twilight movies.

    All the Gards are saying is they want to prosecute, all the DPP is saying is it seems good on paper. Neither know what the defence will do, a Judge will rule, a Jury will decide etc.

    I'd love to see the judicial equivalent of Battlefield:Earth!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    The DCC won't take the case to court unless they believe they can secure a conviction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    The DCC won't take the case to court unless they believe they can secure a conviction.

    That's kinda been dealt with - do you have an opposing view to the ones expressed above?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,086 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    evo2000 wrote: »
    But like surely if it got thru the gardai and the DPP and a book of evidence is produced, it must be a high probability of a guilt/conviction, surely if the case was weak it wouldnt have made it as far with out being stopped somewhere along the line?

    Sorry if this comes across as abit dumb and maybe im being abit too simplistic!
    As others have said, the DPP doesn't bring a prosecution unless he expects to win a conviction. So he generally does think, yes, that the defendant is guilty.

    But he doesn't have the whole picture. He doesn't know what evidence the defence are going to produce. Therefore, while he may honestly believe that the defendant is guilty, he's not necessarily correct. Hence the need for a judge, or judge-and-jury in serious cases, to look at both sides of the case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    I'd love to see the judicial equivalent of Battlefield:Earth!

    I'm sure we've all seen close to it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭testicle


    Stage 1 - Jury Selection
    Stage 2 - Arraignment - charges read out & plead guilty / not guilty
    Stage 3 - Opening statement by prosecution
    Stage 4 - Prosecution evidence
    Stage 5 - Application for direction by defence
    Stage 6 - Defence evidence
    Stage 7 - Closing statements, prosecution then defence
    Stage 8 - Judges direction to the jury
    Stage 9 - Jury considers verdict
    Stage 10 - Jury decides verdict
    Stage 11 - Sentence hearing


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    A bit more of the duffers guide (me not you!)

    At Circuit level and above (e.g. not District) the Judge is the arbitar of law, the jury of fact.

    The prosecution must prove every part of their case to the satisfaction of the Jury. It's so interesting watching a Garda mapper prove where a house is! (:rolleyes:) The accused may remain silent and is under no obligation to prove their innocence.(In some cases it gets a little more complex but we'll skip over that!)

    A defense might be simple mitigation, e.g. I did it but this is why. It might be nothing. It might be a technical defense etc.

    The Jury will be sent out and called back in if there is a legal issue to discuss - such as admissibility of evidence.

    All in all I find it totally fascinating, but then I'm strange.
    There is no jury involved in a mitigation plea. mitigation only goes to the severity of sentence which is a function for the judge alone.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    evo2000 wrote: »
    But like surely if it got thru the gardai and the DPP and a book of evidence is produced, it must be a high probability of a guilt/conviction, surely if the case was weak it wouldnt have made it as far with out being stopped somewhere along the line?

    Sorry if this comes across as abit dumb and maybe im being abit too simplistic!

    In many cases the investigator forms a belief that a person committed the crime. This may be just a hunch and they view all of the evidence through that belief. A file may go to the DPP where the guards are convinced so and so is guilty but when the DPP look at it they can see numerous weaknesses in the case. Ian Bailey and the Kerry babies case are examples.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    There is no jury involved in a mitigation plea. mitigation only goes to the severity of sentence which is a function for the judge alone.

    Indeed my stream of consciousness doesn't always make for clear reading. Thanks for the clarification.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 113 ✭✭joe_six_cans


    evo2000 wrote: »
    How does a court case work? and do the gardai only take it to court when they have a high chance of conviction?

    a close relative of mine was once summonsed to court , her crime , she owns a farm , she asked a local contractor to trim the hedges along her land , he by mistake trimmed the hedges of her neighbour too

    her neighbour went to the guards and accused her of deliberately damaging his trees

    the same guy was well connected with high up members of AGS and had a grudge against the womans son who he was really out to get , he dropped the charges a week before her court appearance was due as there was no chance of a seventy year old widow getting convicted for something like that

    its not always a case of whether a conviction is likely OP


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 113 ✭✭joe_six_cans


    It a balancing act between the public's want for crime to be prosecuted and the state's desire to maximize resources.

    To be guilty of a crime though there are a number of elements to be satisfied. Not least the jury doing something unexpected.

    jurys are not used at district court , the OP has not said which court the case is likely to be heard


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    jurys are not used at district court , the OP has not said which court the case is likely to be heard

    No he didn't, but he seemed to indicate it wasn't minor; worth noting, though, OP.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    No he didn't, but he seemed to indicate it wasn't minor; worth noting, though, OP.

    Oh yeah its fairly serious


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,556 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    jurys are not used at district court , the OP has not said which court the case is likely to be heard

    To be fair he did refer to a book of evidence, hence the discussion moved to indictable crime.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    The Guards don't necessarily have to have a high level of evidence to try and convict someone, I accompanied a relative that was summons to the CCJ for dangerous driving and causing a serious accident. Luckily my relative had the facts data and engineers reports that proved otherwise, the other party was at fault.

    The prosecuting Guard was presented this information outside the court before going in, but wanted to press ahead anyway, which when you looked at it didn't make any sense. The Guard went on the stand and was destroyed by the defense barrister, and the case was dismissed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    The Guards don't necessarily have to have a high level of evidence to try and convict someone, I accompanied a relative that was summons to the CCJ for dangerous driving and causing a serious accident. Luckily my relative had the facts data and engineers reports that proved otherwise, the other party was at fault.

    The prosecuting Guard was presented this information outside the court before going in, but wanted to press ahead anyway, which when you looked at it didn't make any sense. The Guard went on the stand and was destroyed by the defense barrister, and the case was dismissed.

    Garda didn't have a choice. Not allowed withdraw a charge for dangerous driving.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Garda didn't have a choice. Not allowed withdraw a charge for dangerous driving.

    He was asked to revoke the summons, when he went in to the court but didn't want to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    He was asked to revoke the summons, when he went in to the court but didn't want to.

    It wouldn't have been his decision at that stage. The Superintendent would have
    ordered that the case go ahead.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    It wouldn't have been his decision at that stage. The Superintendent would have
    ordered that the case go ahead.

    It was section 53, the most serious, but he wanted to go ahead, and was made a fool of, in front of at least 20 guardai at the back if the court, how does this stuff happen? When the evidence is clear cut?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    It was section 53, the most serious, but he wanted to go ahead, and was made a fool of, in front of at least 20 guardai at the back if the court, how does this stuff happen? When the evidence is clear cut?

    You have just said he didn't see your evidence until the day of the case. The decision to prosecute had been made. He will write up a report to the Super on why the prosecution failed and that should ensure that the same thing doesn't happen again. Guards have thick skins and will live it down.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    It was section 53, the most serious, but he wanted to go ahead, and was made a fool of, in front of at least 20 guardai at the back if the court, how does this stuff happen? When the evidence is clear cut?

    If he had withdrawn the summons without a direction from the Superintendent he would have left himself open to disciplinary action.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    If he had withdrawn the summons without a direction from the Superintendent he would have left himself open to disciplinary action.

    Didn't know that. I know this May be a silly question, but could he have not just rang the super and explain the situation. He had the guts of an hour to do so. I'm just curious?, it would seem like the logical thing to do!? It was a total waste of court time IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Didn't know that. I know this May be a silly question, but could he have not just rang the super and explain the situation. He had the guts of an hour to do so. I'm just curious?, it would seem like the logical thing to do!? It was a total waste of court time IMO.

    Very rare a drink driving case would be withdrawn either way. They'd be afraid of it looking like a favour was been done.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Very rare a drink driving case would be withdrawn either way. They'd be afraid of it looking like a favour was been done.

    Just to be clear, is was section 53, 53.—(1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place at a speed or in a manner which, having regard to all the circumstances of the case (including the nature, condition and use of the place and the amount of traffic which then actually is or might reasonably be expected then to be therein) is dangerous to the public.



    Not drink driving. My relative was leaving work when it happened.

    Another thing I noticed was 8 Guards with 1 person, all giving different charges for this 1 person. It seemed like a total waste of resources to me, I can only imagine how much of Garda time is wasted showing up to court for that kind of rubbish, could the DPP just put all the charges together for one guy and the state solicitor sort it there and then? Instead of wasting Garda time?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Just to be clear, is was section 53, 53.—(1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place at a speed or in a manner which, having regard to all the circumstances of the case (including the nature, condition and use of the place and the amount of traffic which then actually is or might reasonably be expected then to be therein) is dangerous to the public.



    Not drink driving. My relative was leaving work when it happened.

    Another thing I noticed was 8 Guards with 1 person, all giving different charges for this 1 person. It seemed like a total waste of resources to me, I can only imagine how much of Garda time is wasted showing up to court for that kind of rubbish, could the DPP just put all the charges together for one guy and the state solicitor sort it there and then? Instead of wasting Garda time?

    My mistake. They are still slow to withdraw anything that they've given a direction on for similar reasons.

    As to the issue of Garda manpower, I presume this was the Bridewell courts or somewhere similar where there is no court presenter. In many courts a Garda sergeant does the prosecution on the part of the Garda to avoid the issue of so many Gardaí in courts. This hasn't extended to summons cases yet though. It will eventually.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    My mistake. They are still slow to withdraw anything that they've given a direction on for similar reasons.

    As to the issue of Garda manpower, I presume this was the Bridewell courts or somewhere similar where there is no court presenter. In many courts a Garda sergeant does the prosecution on the part of the Garda to avoid the issue of so many Gardaí in courts. This hasn't extended to summons cases yet though. It will eventually.

    This was the CCJ in Dublin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    This was the CCJ in Dublin.

    Some of the courts there don't have court presenters either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Some of the courts there don't have court presenters either.

    To sum it up, what I saw in the Irish court system was a joke, a man that was accused of section 53 (1). with no proper evidence, proof of liability of the prosecution witness, who could not be charged because it was over 15 months. Even though it was proved he was at fault. The Garda's evidence was so bloody flimsy it was hilarious, Judge 'O Donnell just let the pit pull (defense Barrister out of the cage) and destruction happened. Mad stuff really.

    Anyway end of that. Good to see different legal aspects here :)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Some of the courts there don't have court presenters either.

    To sum it up, what I saw in the Irish court system was a joke, a man that was accused of section 53 (1). with no proper evidence, proof of liability of the prosecution witness, who could not be charged because it was over 15 months. He caused the accident. Even though it was proved he was at fault. The Garda's evidence was so bloody flimsy it was hilarious, Judge 'O Donnell just let the pit pull (defense Barrister out of the cage) and destruction happened. Mad stuff really.

    Anyway end of that. Good to see different legal aspects here :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    To sum it up, what I saw in the Irish court system was a joke, a man that was accused of section 53 (1). with no proper evidence, proof of liability of the prosecution witness, who could not be charged because it was over 15 months. Even though it was proved he was at fault. The Garda's evidence was so bloody flimsy it was hilarious, Judge 'O Donnell just let the pit pull (defense Barrister out of the cage) and destruction happened. Mad stuff really.

    Anyway end of that. Good to see different legal aspects here :)

    There should be a court presenter and chief state solicitor in every district court, including summons courts. It would save manpower, court time and ensure more professional cases. As it stands you often have Gardaí, who have received only a few hours practical training in court prosecutions, prosecuting all manner of cases. It is indeed a joke.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    This post has been deleted.

    In Dublin the District courts only deal with a limited range of cases. eg Road traffic or family or children or licensing or civil or general non RTA crime and non DPP prosecutions. State solicitors attend in the drink driving court. Court presenters are not considered necessary in the RTA cases.
    In the couNtry all types of case are heard in the same court so a court presenter appears for all cases.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    This post has been deleted.

    Because they hear all the cases together there. It's one of the small ways that country courts are better than Dublin ones. More oversight.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    In Dublin the District courts only deal with a limited range of cases. eg Road traffic or family or children or licensing or civil or general non RTA crime and non DPP prosecutions. State solicitors attend in the drink driving court. Court presenters are not considered necessary in the RTA cases.
    In the couNtry all types of case are heard in the same court so a court presenter appears for all cases.

    There was a state solicitor there because there was a DD case there as well. I did observe her talking with my relatives Barrister and going through the "evidence". Can or could she recommend to the Gardaí or Judge that this doesn't go ahead? or what is the function of the state solicitor? Why Couldn't she just say "this is bull, tell the super, this isn't going ahead, go home"

    Surely, the state solicitor has some sort of power over this kind of stuff? What is the function of this person?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    There was a state solicitor there because there was a DD case there as well. I did observe her talking with my relatives Barrister and going through the "evidence". Can or could she recommend to the Gardaí or Judge that this doesn't go ahead? or what is the function of the state solicitor? Why Couldn't she just say "this is bull, tell the super, this isn't going ahead, go home"

    Surely, the state solicitor has some sort of power over this kind of stuff? What is the function of this person?

    To prosecute the case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    To prosecute the case.

    I'm lost now? which one the DD or my relatives RTA?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    I'm lost now? which one the DD or my relatives RTA?

    The function of the chief state solicitor is to prosecute the case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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