Losing my faith because of religious people. Advice?

Unsureguy12

I'm a guy in my twenties and always enjoyed religion growing up. Found the church a very peaceful/relaxing place.
I always found religious people nice/caring.
I also stuck up for priests during abuse scandals(not the bad ones).
I will admit I don't go to mass as much as I used to.
I suppose this all started back in February. When articles started appearing about the marriage referendum on Facebook.
I saw some very harsh mean comments written by Irish catholics. Very hurtful/upsetting. The same names(about 50) kept on proping up. Over the months. In one place they'd say they had gay friends but they didn't believe in gay marriage and in others they talked about gay people very harshly/burning in helletc. When you read these people's time lines they were obviously very religious but there comments were very awful. (Worst than a bully).
Now they've moved onto abortion and I would have been anti abortion.(think our laws are okay now)I always saw it as wrong. However reading these people's comments are making me question my beliefs. Basically do I want to associated with these mean nasty people?

Am I losing my faith?
What should I do?
Thanks in advance.

RedPaddyX

Unsureguy12 wrote: »

I'm a guy in my twenties and always enjoyed religion growing up. Found the church a very peaceful/relaxing place.
I always found religious people nice/caring.
I also stuck up for priests during abuse scandals(not the bad ones).
I will admit I don't go to mass as much as I used to.
I suppose this all started back in February. When articles started appearing about the marriage referendum on Facebook.
I saw some very harsh mean comments written by Irish catholics. Very hurtful/upsetting. The same names(about 50) kept on proping up. Over the months. In one place they'd say they had gay friends but they didn't believe in gay marriage and in others they talked about gay people very harshly/burning in helletc. When you read these people's time lines they were obviously very religious but there comments were very awful. (Worst than a bully).
Now they've moved onto abortion and I would have been anti abortion.(think our laws are okay now)I always saw it as wrong. However reading these people's comments are making me question my beliefs. Basically do I want to associated with these mean nasty people?

Am I losing my faith?
What should I do?
Thanks in advance.

This is a common issue that pops up.

If you met a lot of mean people who believed the world was round, would you also give up belief that the world is round?

The truth of Jesus's claims (which is the central premise of Christianity) is unaffected by the behaviour of his so called followers.

Peregrinus

What RedPaddyX said.

You get this in any community, gathered around any belief, any ideal, any activity, any identity. Humans are flawed, and some of the people in the community are going to turn out to be flawed in ways that dismay you.

The only way to avoid this, though, is to crawl under rock and stay there, refusing to engage in any kind of relationship with other human beings. I presume I don't have to argue why that would not, on the whole, be a good idea.

Maybe the best response is to commit yourself to doing what you can to make the church a better one. Be the Christian who calls the church out when it falls short of its Christian ideals. Be the Christian whose attitudes to gay people, or to women facing crisis pregnancies, make them glad they've encountered a Christian.

Cabaal

Problem is what the OP is saying isn't just down to the odd joe religious person its down to very well funded catholic groups and even local priests, these groups represent the catholic church in Ireland in the media and the Bishops etc don't seem to have any problem with that.

You have organizations like Iona (Lolek Ltd) and Catholic Comment who have said some very very nasty stuff towards people, but on the other end of the spectrum you have local parish priests saying things in bad taste also. There's one representative who belongs to Catholic Comment on thejournal.ie who regularly posts some pretty nasty stuff towards women and gay people over the past 12-18 months, I've seen it countless times and I've called him out on it too.

My parents went to a anniversary mass shortly before the ref in May and they were disgusted that the priest spent the majority of the mass going on about how bad marriage equality would be.

realdanbreen

Unsureguy12 wrote: »

I'm a guy in my twenties and always enjoyed religion growing up. Found the church a very peaceful/relaxing place.
I always found religious people nice/caring.
I also stuck up for priests during abuse scandals(not the bad ones).
I will admit I don't go to mass as much as I used to.
I suppose this all started back in February. When articles started appearing about the marriage referendum on Facebook.
I saw some very harsh mean comments written by Irish catholics. Very hurtful/upsetting. The same names(about 50) kept on proping up. Over the months. In one place they'd say they had gay friends but they didn't believe in gay marriage and in others they talked about gay people very harshly/burning in helletc. When you read these people's time lines they were obviously very religious but there comments were very awful. (Worst than a bully).
Now they've moved onto abortion and I would have been anti abortion.(think our laws are okay now)I always saw it as wrong. However reading these people's comments are making me question my beliefs. Basically do I want to associated with these mean nasty people?

Am I losing my faith?
What should I do?
Thanks in advance.

Its a common predicament TBH, and its not just young people who are going through this. I think its the elephant in the room(the low turnout at masses) that the church needs to address.I remember years ago the clergy would call to peoples houses and basicly have a chat. Tht needs to happen now more than ever.

Peregrinus

Cabaal wrote: »

Problem is what the OP is saying isn't just down to the odd joe religious person its down to very well funded catholic groups and even local priests, these groups represent the catholic church in Ireland in the media and the Bishops etc don't seem to have any problem with that.

You have organizations like Iona (Lolek Ltd) and Catholic Comment who have said some very very nasty stuff towards people, but on the other end of the spectrum you have local parish priests saying things in bad taste also. There's one representative who belongs to Catholic Comment on thejournal.ie who regularly posts some pretty nasty stuff towards women and gay people over the past 12-18 months, I've seen it countless times and I've called him out on it too.

My parents went to a anniversary mass shortly before the ref in May and they were disgusted that the priest spent the majority of the mass going on about how bad marriage equality would be.

Sure. Lots of people are repelled from Christianity by their encounters with Christians.

But does unsureguy12 want to concede that those people are the Christians, and he is not? He asks in the OP if he is "losing his faith". If he decides that their behaviour means that he must give up his faith then, yes, he is losing his faith.

He doesn't have to decide that, though. If Christianity calls us to being loving, respectful, accepting, etc of other people then he can embrace his faith, and practice his faith, and name it for what it is. Why should he let it be claimed by bigots?

Cabaal

realdanbreen wrote: »

Its a common predicament TBH, and its not just young people who are going through this. I think its the elephant in the room(the low turnout at masses) that the church needs to address.I remember years ago the clergy would call to peoples houses and basicly have a chat. Tht needs to happen now more than ever.

If you think that will solve the catholic church's problems then I'm very sorry but you seems rather disconnected from the real problems in the church.

I know of people in there 20's, 30's, 40's, 70's and 80's and the last thing they'd want is a priest calling around to them as they see it as annoying, yet all these people consider themselves catholic.

The real issue here is priests are not trusted and are certainly no longer the pillar of society they were once seen as, the church only has itself to blame for this due to its own policy's in decades past, refusal for people involved or actively knew about the abuse but did nothing to resign (Brady) and the message of hatred spread during stuff like the marriage ref.

They are very much out of touch with Irish society and will continue to remain out of touch as long as the keep their out of date views on many many issues.

Lucena

Does the Catholic Church actually teach us to be loving and respectful though? (I know the OP is talking about Christianity in general, but he mentions the points coming from Irish Catholics).

For example, isn't the official position of the CC that gays (assuming they have gay sex) are committing a mortal sin and will therefore effectively burn in hell for all eternity?

realdanbreen

Cabaal wrote: »

If you think that will solve the catholic church's problems then I'm very sorry but you seems rather disconnected from the real problems in the church.

They are out of touch with Irish society,

I never suggested that it would solve any problems. What I am suggesting is that engaging directly with people and hearing what they have to say might help. You are saying that 'they are out of touch with Irish society' after all!

Cabaal

realdanbreen wrote: »

I never suggested that it would solve any problems. What I am suggesting is that engaging directly with people and hearing what they have to say might help. You are saying that 'they are out of touch with Irish society' after all!

Engaging needs to happen on all levels but this needs to happen top down first

The church needs to be seen as open and honest and right now thats just can't happen especially when the Vatican refuses to cooperate with UN investigations and hasn't really done anything meaningful with priests etc that abused, instead people seem to just die just before anything actually happens.

This to the avg joe shows that the church has alot to hide still and people don't trust it because of this, can't say I blame them really.

Peregrinus

Lucena wrote: »

Does the Catholic Church actually teach us to be loving and respectful though? (I know the OP is talking about Christianity in general, but he mentions the points coming from Irish Catholics).

For example, isn't the official position of the CC that gays (assuming they have gay sex) are committing a mortal sin and will therefore effectively burn in hell for all eternity?

No, it isn't.

The official teaching is that homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered" and that "under no circumstances can they be approved". Homosexual people, however, "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity" and "every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided".

Homosexual people are "called to chastity", but there is no teaching that if they are sexually active they are committing mortal sin, or that they will burn in hell for all eternity.

But is this all that relevant? Unsureguy12's problem isn't with the official teaching - presumably he feels he can live with that - but with the attitudes displayed by some Irish Christians (and, no doubt, some Irish Catholics).

The attitudes he takes exception to are not in line with official teaching - they don't amount to "respect, compassion, and sensitivity" - but that doesn't solve his problem. His problem is not with the community's beliefs, but with the behaviours of some of its members.

eviltwin

Maybe distance yourself from the types of people you mention. Most Catholics support same sex marriage, abortion and other issues like ivf, contraception etc
It's just that the high profile people you refer to have a loud voice and a prominent platform.

eviltwin

Lucena wrote: »

Does the Catholic Church actually teach us to be loving and respectful though? (I know the OP is talking about Christianity in general, but he mentions the points coming from Irish Catholics).

For example, isn't the official position of the CC that gays (assuming they have gay sex) are committing a mortal sin and will therefore effectively burn in hell for all eternity?

Yeah pretty much but we're also told that we are gods design so you have to wonder what God was thinking when he made gay people.

looksee

RedPaddyX wrote: »

This is a common issue that pops up.

If you met a lot of mean people who believed the world was round, would you also give up belief that the world is round?

The truth of Jesus's claims (which is the central premise of Christianity) is unaffected by the behaviour of his so called followers.

But you don't have to believe the world is round, the evidence is very clearly there. Religion is 100% faith, and once doubt seeps in - and the behaviour of some of the 'flat earth-ers' would repel anyone - then that doubt can turn to conviction.

Once you have realised that none of it makes any sense it is impossible to go back, but if you want it to make sense, then it will. That choice is the difference between believers and non-believers.

realdanbreen

Cabaal wrote: »

Engaging needs to happen on all levels but this needs to happen top down first

.

Why?
The concerns that the OP has have a better chance of being addressed by a local clergyman than by any directive from the Vatican.

WearstheFoxhat

Faith is a placebo

Peregrinus

Cabaal wrote: »

Engaging needs to happen on all levels but this needs to happen top down first.

I don't think so.

Your concerns are legitimate but - no offence - I think you're trying to slot the OP's concerns into your own. You're focussed on the Catholic Church as an organisation, an institution; his concerns seem to me to focus more on believers at large, as a community.

To analogise, there's a difference between having a problem with, or a criticism of the Irish state or the Irish government, on the one hand, and Irish society or culture, or the Irish nation, on the other. I think your concerns are more like the former, the OP's more like the latter.

Which is not to say that his concerns are any more valid than your concerns; just that they are different concerns. And therefore what has to happen to address your concerns is not necessarily what has to happen to address his.

Lucena

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, it isn't.

The official teaching is that homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered" and that "under no circumstances can they be approved". Homosexual people, however, "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity" and "every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided".

Homosexual people are "called to chastity", but there is no teaching that if they are sexually active they are committing mortal sin, or that they will burn in hell for all eternity.

But is this all that relevant? Unsureguy12's problem isn't with the official teaching - presumably he feels he can live with that - but with the attitudes displayed by some Irish Christians (and, no doubt, some Irish Catholics).

The attitudes he takes exception to are not in line with official teaching - they don't amount to "respect, compassion, and sensitivity" - but that doesn't solve his problem. His problem is not with the community's beliefs, but with the behaviours of some of its members.

It's relevant because the Church, and some of its members, basically feel that gay people aren't allowed to express their sexuality because that's 'intrinsically disordered' and can't be 'approved'. That doesn't seem very respectful, compassionate or sensitive to me.

It's possibly this attitude, which is in line with the teaching of the Church, that the OP has problems with.

Peregrinus

Lucena wrote: »

It's relevant because the Church, and some of its members, basically feel that gay people aren't allowed to express their sexuality because that's 'intrinsically disordered' and can't be 'approved'. That doesn't seem very respectful, compassionate or sensitive to me.

It's possibly this attitude, which is in line with the teaching of the Church, that the OP has problems with.

It very possibly is, but that's quite different from the question you asked in your earlier post.

Lucena

Peregrinus wrote: »

It very possibly is, but that's quite different from the question you asked in your earlier post.

Regarding gay sex and mortal sin? Yes, it is a different question, but that's because the conversation has moved on. I'm hardly going to keep asking the same question, am I? If you think I'm backpedalling, it's because my initial assumption that gay sex was a mortal sin and that one would go to hell for it was only based on what I learned in school and at Mass.

Nevertheless, the Church's position on gay people, which members of the Church are meant to follow, isn't very respectful of gay people. Which may be part of the OP's problem.

hinault

Unsureguy12 wrote: »

I'm a guy in my twenties and always enjoyed religion growing up. Found the church a very peaceful/relaxing place.
I always found religious people nice/caring.
I also stuck up for priests during abuse scandals(not the bad ones).
I will admit I don't go to mass as much as I used to.
I suppose this all started back in February. When articles started appearing about the marriage referendum on Facebook.
I saw some very harsh mean comments written by Irish catholics. Very hurtful/upsetting. The same names(about 50) kept on proping up. Over the months. In one place they'd say they had gay friends but they didn't believe in gay marriage and in others they talked about gay people very harshly/burning in helletc. When you read these people's time lines they were obviously very religious but there comments were very awful. (Worst than a bully).
Now they've moved onto abortion and I would have been anti abortion.(think our laws are okay now)I always saw it as wrong. However reading these people's comments are making me question my beliefs. Basically do I want to associated with these mean nasty people?

Am I losing my faith?
What should I do?
Thanks in advance.

You don't have to have a religious belief to be anti abortion or anti same sex "marriage"

What religion are you?

hinault

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, it isn't.

The official teaching is that homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered" and that "under no circumstances can they be approved". Homosexual people, however, "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity" and "every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided".

Homosexual people are "called to chastity", but there is no teaching that if they are sexually active they are committing mortal sin, or that they will burn in hell for all eternity.

But is this all that relevant? Unsureguy12's problem isn't with the official teaching - presumably he feels he can live with that - but with the attitudes displayed by some Irish Christians (and, no doubt, some Irish Catholics).

The attitudes he takes exception to are not in line with official teaching - they don't amount to "respect, compassion, and sensitivity" - but that doesn't solve his problem. His problem is not with the community's beliefs, but with the behaviours of some of its members.

Misleading and disingenuous.

All sexual relations outside marriage are a mortal sin.

eviltwin

hinault wrote: »

You don't have to have a religious belief to be anti abortion or anti same sex "marriage"

What religion are you?

You don't need the inverted commas anymore

Unsureguy12

Thanks again for the advice.
Growing up I often heard people bad mouthing the church over various issues and I always defended it at being a kind/caring place.
In Catholic.
My issue isn't with the teaching of the bible. My issue is with people who see themselves as perfect Catholics and they write horrible/vile things about gay people and they think they are kind of warriors. These people often have young kids/teenagers and I just wonder how is it effecting them if they are having issues and how will they face them. It's not just gay people I'm referring to. I always thought religious people were kind and understanding not close minded and nasty.

Lucena

hinault wrote: »

Misleading and disingenuous.

All sexual relations outside marriage are a mortal sin.

Yes, that's what I learned in school. No naked fun until you've got the rubber stamp from the Vatican.

eviltwin

Lucena wrote: »

Yes, that's what I learned in school. No naked fun until you've got the rubber stamp from the Vatican.

No rubbers allowed Lucena, that's a mortal sin too.

Isn't it sad that something so natural and healthy and enjoyable as sex is seen as a bad thing if its outside a marriage. What a sad view to take of one of biology's most wonderful gifts.

ABC101

Unsureguy12 wrote: »

Thanks again for the advice.
Growing up I often heard people bad mouthing the church over various issues and I always defended it at being a kind/caring place.
In Catholic.
My issue isn't with the teaching of the bible. My issue is with people who see themselves as perfect Catholics and they write horrible/vile things about gay people and they think they are kind of warriors. These people often have young kids/teenagers and I just wonder how is it effecting them if they are having issues and how will they face them. It's not just gay people I'm referring to. I always thought religious people were kind and understanding not close minded and nasty.

You will find close minded and nasty people in all walks of life, including religious organisations.

But I would not lose faith in what I believe due to a few bad apples.

Humans have an amazing ability to hold two or more polar opposite beliefs in their head and be very comfortable with that.

A small number of priests stood on the alter teaching the Word of God and yet... when given the opportunity abused children.

How many times have we heard of Politicians pledging to clean up politics... and eventually some of them get caught with their hand in the cookie jar stealing public money.

Some lay people have become fine upstanding members of society... given awards etc.... only for it to be discovered that they were practicing something totally different privately...i.e. beating their wife, children or like Jimmy Saville abusing young teenagers.

Human hypocrisy is nothing new... and humans have a great ability to be very happy in believing one thing... and sometimes.... practicing the complete opposite.

However as abhorrent as child abuse is.... either physical or sexual....I find the concept of abortion far worse.

I have met people who believe that they are followers of Jesus Christ... and yet still support the availability of abortion or 'pro-choice' to use it's politically correct name.

When I ask them how can you consider yourself to be a follower of the RCC and yet support the availability of abortion.... they reply that in their mind they are comfortable with it, to them that is all that matters. They have justified it to themselves... and not given much thought to the hypocrisy inside their mind, might not even be aware of the possibility that they themselves are being hypocritical.

It is a good example of how humans are able to be comfortable with hypocrisy inside their mind.

So in short... human hypocrisy is every where... to lesser or greater degrees... and we all require to be aware of not falling into that trap of becoming one ourselves.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

Unsureguy12 wrote: »

I'm a guy in my twenties and always enjoyed religion growing up. Found the church a very peaceful/relaxing place.
I always found religious people nice/caring.
I also stuck up for priests during abuse scandals(not the bad ones).
I will admit I don't go to mass as much as I used to.
I suppose this all started back in February. When articles started appearing about the marriage referendum on Facebook.
I saw some very harsh mean comments written by Irish catholics. Very hurtful/upsetting. The same names(about 50) kept on proping up. Over the months. In one place they'd say they had gay friends but they didn't believe in gay marriage and in others they talked about gay people very harshly/burning in helletc. When you read these people's time lines they were obviously very religious but there comments were very awful. (Worst than a bully).
Now they've moved onto abortion and I would have been anti abortion.(think our laws are okay now)I always saw it as wrong. However reading these people's comments are making me question my beliefs. Basically do I want to associated with these mean nasty people?

Am I losing my faith?
What should I do?
Thanks in advance.

I hope I do not sound patronising OP, you seem like a good Catholic standing up for the Church ect but there is a point I want to get accross.

Christians are not called to be "nice guys". It is nowewhere in the Bible. We are to be tough on sin, calling it out to the best of our ability. We are to forgive sinners, but we are not to allow them to set the world on fire through their own gravely mistaken views.

Remember what Jesus did to the moneychangers in the temple? He did not say "maybe I should engage these lovely people in dialogue, reach a compromise with them, consider their opinion and point of view...". No! He grabbed a piece of cord and wrought havoc on their stalls. Remember, Christianity is the imitation of Christ, not what we thing Christ should do.

"Kindness is for fools. They want them to be treated with oil, soap, and caresses, but they should be beaten with fists! In a duel you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can! War is not made with charity, it is a struggle, a duel. If Our Lord were not terrible, he would not have given an example in this too. See how he treated the Philistines, the sowers of error, the wolves in sheep's clothing, the traitors in the temple. He scourged them with whips!"

Pope Pius X

"Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil ... a forbearance that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance applies only to persons ... never to truth."

Archibishop Fulton J Sheen

Your friends said unrepentant homosexuals will burn in hell? Well so did St Paul:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men" 1 Corinthians 6:9

The thing I am trying to say is that often it is good to consider our stance too, to make sure it is not us who are erring. It is not easy to call out sin in today's world, and perhaps it is your friends who are to be commended. We cannot equate Christianity with being quiet, timid and nice while sin consumes the world around us.

lazybones32

Unsureguy12 wrote: »

... Basically do I want to associated with these mean nasty people?

Am I losing my faith?
What should I do?
Thanks in advance.

You don't mention God in any of this? Lose your faith in people all you want but your faith must be in God or it is not faith at all. Seems like your faith is built on sand and this little storm is collapsing it already. This could be the beginning of something beautiful and real or the end of a fantasy-based faith.

People aren't perfect (except me) and even 'nice' people are capable of being cold, harsh or bullies. Have you ever looked at your own self and wondered at your own potential - for good and evil? Try not to be too quick to condemn in others what you could easily be tomorrow.

Jesus came for the sinners; to be the Saviour of sinners and the healer of sick people. He chose to be associated with them - and received more than his fair share of flak for doing so - but he chose them; warts and all. He chooses you too, even if you don't see or recognise your warts.

Mrs OBumble

eviltwin wrote: »

Isn't it sad that something so natural and healthy and enjoyable as sex is seen as a bad thing if its outside a marriage. What a sad view to take of one of biology's most wonderful gifts.

Not necessarily.

There are some feminist writers who believe that the entire sexual revolution / sexual freedom movement is in fact a giant con-job, which made it easier for men get their jollies and women to get hurt and used.

Early sexual activity and frequent changes of partner is associated with a number of health risks (cervical cancer, etc)

IMHO there's a lot to be said for encouraging people to think carefully about their own values, and whether a few minutes of enjoyment is worth the risks involved.

I don't particularly advocate the church's "thou shalt not ... " approach - it doesn't work unless you have a particularly ignorant and fearful population.

But teaching that favours long-term monogamous relationships does lead to more human happiness overall - even though it may be hard to see that when your hormones are raging.

eviltwin

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Not necessarily.

There are some feminist writers who believe that the entire sexual revolution / sexual freedom movement is in fact a giant con-job, which made it easier for men get their jollies and women to get hurt and used.

Early sexual activity and frequent changes of partner is associated with a number of health risks (cervical cancer, etc)

IMHO there's a lot to be said for encouraging people to think carefully about their own values, and whether a few minutes of enjoyment is worth the risks involved.

I don't particularly advocate the church's "thou shalt not ... " approach - it doesn't work unless you have a particularly ignorant and fearful population.

But teaching that favours long-term monogamous relationships does lead to more human happiness overall - even though it may be hard to see that when your hormones are raging.

I wasn't just talking about casual sex. The church see unmarried sex as sinful even if the couple are together a long time. Every time I have sex with my partner it's a mortal sin, what a load of rubbish. And that's before we get to their views on same sex couples......

Peregrinus

eviltwin wrote: »

I wasn't just talking about casual sex. The church see unmarried sex as sinful even if the couple are together a long time. Every time I have sex with my partner it's a mortal sin, what a load of rubbish . . .

(This isn't actually the Catholic position.)

eviltwin

Peregrinus wrote: »

(This isn't actually the Catholic position.)

I was always raised to believe pre marital sex was a mortal sin. Is that not the case?

Lucena

There doesn't seem to be a consensus of what's allowed by the Church.

Is there an actual "rulebook" anywhere online which tells us what's allowed or not? Like for the rules of the road.

Peregrinus

eviltwin wrote: »

I was always raised to believe pre marital sex was a mortal sin. Is that not the case?

Lucena wrote: »

There doesn't seem to be a consensus of what's allowed by the Church.

Is there an actual "rulebook" anywhere online which tells us what's allowed or not? Like for the rules of the road.

There's the Catechism. It's not quite a rule book; it's an attempt at a comprehensive summary of Catholic teaching on all topics. But, yes, it does include a summary of moral teaching. And the summary does include this:

"Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children."

So, sex outside marriage = not good. But this statement is part of a discussion on the virtue of chastity (defined as "successful integration of sexuality within the person") and starts by making the point that "all the baptized are called to chastity". The specific teaching about fornication emerges from that.

I don't know whether eviltwin is baptised, and without knowing that we obviously can't assume that a discussion about sexual morality addressed to baptized people can be read as if it applied to her (or him). There's certainly no Catholic teaching that I know of which says that non-Christians whose sexual lives do not conform to the model of to which Christians are called are therefore in a state of mortal sin.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that eviltwin is baptised. And let's even go a little bit further, and assume that she (or he) is a Christian (but not a Catholic). Now what's the catechism saying?

Obviously, the "sex outside marriage = not good" statement is now relevant to eviltwin. But what does it mean to say that eviltwin is, or is not, "married" to her (I'm going to run with "her" from now on) partner?

If eviltwin were a Catholic, then Catholic canon law would require her to celebrate her marriage in canonical form before a priest or deacon, or get a dispensation from doing that. But eviltwin isn't a Catholic; no such requirement is imposed on her.

As far as civil law is concerned, to be married eviltwin has to give notice to the registrar, celebrate her wedding before an authorised celebrant, etc, etc.

But this is the Catechism; when it talks about "marriage" it's obviously not talking about the Irish civil law concept of marriage (or the civil concept of any other state); it's talking about the Catholic concept. And the Catholic concept of marriage, for people (like eviltwin) not required to have a canonical ceremony, is very basic. A marriage is constituted by the promises of mutual love and enduring fidelity the spouses make to one another, ratified by their conjugal relationship. While it's usual that there be a formal marriage ceremony of some kind, either religious or civil, it's not necessary.

So, if eviltwin and her partner have a relationship founded on an exclusive mutual commitment to love and fidelity, then as far as the Catholic church is concerned it's either a marriage or something very close to it. So this is not a context in which sex between eviltwin and her partner is profoundly wrong. If there is anything wrong about their situation at all from the Catholic perspective (and I am not saying that there is) it may not be that they have a sexual relationship; it may be that the enduring loving commitment they he made to one another is not as visible, as explicit, as it might be. If they were to ask a Catholic moralist what they should do (though there is no reason why they should do that) he would probably advise them to marry formally, or to celebrate publicly their commitment in some way, in order to bring their formal public status into line with the existing underlying reality. He would not advise them to stop having sex.

Whereas if, e.g. a sex worker and a client were to make a similar request (which is perhaps even less likely to happen) the advice would be that they should stop having sex.

eviltwin

Unfortunately I was baptised so while I'm no longer religious I'm still considered a Catholic so I'm assuming in the eyes of the church I'm still subject to the same rules as practicing Catholics. I got married in a registry office and have been told, by a priest incidentally, it's not recognised as a marriage therefore I'm still living in sin.

I'm just curious if that means I'm doomed to go to hell as I have no intention of confessing this or repenting. I can't accept that something forced on me in infancy that I had no choice over will result in my soul no being eligible for heaven just because I have sex.

Greenmachine

I have met my share of gay people who were not in favour of gay marriage. Despite being gay themselves, marriage was so ingrained in their psyche as being between a man and a woman. Nonetheless, I felt, give people their own choice.

Then again you might want to ignore my opinion on account of the fact that I am an atheist. Faith is a funny thing, you can believe in god, the almighty and be a horrible person, or not believe and live an honest life. Crazy world and all that.

hinault

eviltwin wrote: »

Unfortunately I was baptised .so..............

So have you taken any of this up with the people who saw fit to have you baptised? Have you conveyed your annoyance to them for getting you baptised, instead of carping here about being baptised?

katydid

Unsureguy12 wrote: »

I'm a guy in my twenties and always enjoyed religion growing up. Found the church a very peaceful/relaxing place.
I always found religious people nice/caring.
I also stuck up for priests during abuse scandals(not the bad ones).
I will admit I don't go to mass as much as I used to.
I suppose this all started back in February. When articles started appearing about the marriage referendum on Facebook.
I saw some very harsh mean comments written by Irish catholics. Very hurtful/upsetting. The same names(about 50) kept on proping up. Over the months. In one place they'd say they had gay friends but they didn't believe in gay marriage and in others they talked about gay people very harshly/burning in helletc. When you read these people's time lines they were obviously very religious but there comments were very awful. (Worst than a bully).
Now they've moved onto abortion and I would have been anti abortion.(think our laws are okay now)I always saw it as wrong. However reading these people's comments are making me question my beliefs. Basically do I want to associated with these mean nasty people?

Am I losing my faith?
What should I do?
Thanks in advance.

You have as much right to be a member of your faith as anyone else. If you believe in it, don't let the fact that there are some people out there who aren't living up to the ideals of faith push you out. They are a MINORITY

It's always good to question your faith from time to time. Not thinking about something means not really committing to it; if you make a conscious decision to stick with it, even though some not so nice people are also part of it, that's good.

But also remember that your FAITH is your faith in God, not just the faith in being a member of a particular denomination of Christianity.

eviltwin

hinault wrote: »

So have you taken any of this up with the people who saw fit to have you baptised? Have you conveyed your annoyance to them for getting you baptised, instead of carping here about being baptised?

Carping? I was responding to the post from Peregrinus and asking a question based on that but it's easier to give a smart reply than actually answer isn't it? For the record I've never spoken to my parents about it as by the time I gave up on religion we weren't on speaking terms not that talking would change anything. It's done. Now would you like to answer the question about sex and sin?

Kiwi in IE

hinault wrote: »

Misleading and disingenuous.

All sexual relations outside marriage are a mortal sin.

Well the result of the recent referendum should therefore be seen as a positive step for those who believe that sex outside of marriage is a 'sin'! Sex outside of marriage is no longer the only option for LGBT couples. They can now have sex within marriage if they so choose. A win/win situation surely?

hinault

eviltwin wrote: »

For the record I've never spoken to my parents about it (being baptised) as by the time I gave up on religion we weren't on speaking terms not that talking would change anything. It's done.

You can't alter the fact that you're baptised.

You need to inform your parents that you disagree with their decision to have you baptised, rather than carping about it here.

hinault

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Well the result of the recent referendum should therefore be seen as a positive step for those who believe that sex outside of marriage is a 'sin'! Sex outside of marriage is no longer the only option for LGBT couples. They can now have sex within marriage if they so choose. A win/win situation surely?

Sexual relations outside sacramental marriage is a grave sin.

Kiwi in IE

hinault wrote: »

Sexual relations outside sacramental marriage is a grave sin.

Right, only married Catholics can have sex! What's the specific problem with LGBT couples getting married then? Out of the approx 7 billion people on earth, around 5.9 billion of us are apparently in the same boat as regard to 'grave sin' when it comes to sexual relations. So why are only LGBT people singled out? Should you not be equally opposed to athiest, Muslims, Jewish People, non Catholic Christians, Hindus, Buddists etc, etc getting married/having sex? Why the singular focus on LGBT couples. The sexual relations of all non Catholics are apparently a 'grave sin'. Surely a 'grave sin' is a 'grave sin', but I see no protests or referendums about atheists or any other non Catholic group being allowed to marry/have sex?

And further to that, if you don't recognise non Catholic weddings and the Catholic church refuses to marry LGBT couples, then you don't consider them married anyway, along with the entirety of the worlds non Catholic population! Seeing as you don't consider civil and non Catholic marriages to be real, why would you specifically have a problem with these marriages, that you believe to be fake anyway, being available to LGBT couples?

hinault

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Right, only married Catholics can have sex!

No.

I won't be wasting my time replying to you further in this thread.

Kiwi in IE

hinault wrote: »

No.

I won't be wasting my time replying to you further in this thread.

Now now, no need to be like that! I am simply trying to understand why it is only LGBT couples marrying that cause such an issue for some people of religious persuasion. If you don't consider their marriages to be real because they aren't 'sacremental', why should it bother you?

Did you not say that 'Sex outside sacramental marriage is a grave sin'? I assumed that you meant Catholic sacramental marriage. Apologies if I was mistaken in my assumption. Could you please clarify exactly who 'sacremental' marriage applies to, if not only Catholics?

Kiwi in IE

hinault wrote: »

Sexual relations outside sacramental marriage is a grave sin.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Right, only married Catholics can have sex

hinault wrote: »

No.

I won't be wasting my time replying to you further in this thread.

http://www.google.ie/search?q=sacramental+marriage&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#hl=en-gb&q=sacrament+definition

How was I mistaken exactly? It seems I left out Orthodox churches who also consider marriage to be a sacrament. Or was it that I said that only married Catholic people can have sex, when clearly in reality anyone can have sex, but only married Catholic (and Orthodox) people can have sex that is not a 'grave sin', as it is only they who have 'sacramental' marriage?

Whatever way, why the singular focus on LGBT couples? Apparently roughly 80% of the worlds population are in the same state of 'grave sin' as LGBT couples, whether married or not, by virtue of not being Catholic or Orthodox, so why does this state of 'grave sin' particularly worry you when it comes to LGBT couples, but not anyone else?

And why have you decided that you will ignore my questions? Surely they are perfectly reasonable given that you said that all sex outside 'sacramental' marriage is a 'grave sin'?

Peregrinus

hinault wrote: »

Sexual relations outside sacramental marriage is a grave sin.

Absolutely definitely not Catholic teaching, since if this were the case unbaptised people could never, ever have sex in any circumstances without thereby sinning. And the Catholic church, in its most depressingly puritan monents, has never taught anything remotely like this.

And a prime example, incidentally, of the kind of misrepresentation of Catholicism which is causing the OP's problem.

Kiwi in IE

Peregrinus wrote: »

Absolutely definitely not Catholic teaching, since if this were the case unbaptised people could never, ever have sex in any circumstances without thereby sinning.

But unbaptised people are 'doomed' anyway so it probably is of little further consequence what kind of sex they have!

Peregrinus

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

But unbaptised people are 'doomed' anyway so it probably is of little further consequence what kind of sex they have!

Again, no. This is not Catholic teaching.

Kiwi in IE

Peregrinus wrote: »

Again, no. This is not Catholic teaching.

Perhaps not, but I think we would be safe enough if we were to bet all our worldly possessions on it being Hinault's interpretation of Catholicism! And Hinault would by no means be alone there. How do so many people misinterpret things like this (e.g those who put the OP off his religion) if it is not, and has never, been Catholic teaching? I know at least a couple of Catholics who think that only baptised Catholics who participate fully in sacraments go to heaven. How do they reach this conclusion about their religion when it is not what their church teaches?