why is the church still brain washing kids

Hotblack Desiato

According to the census, we are an overwhelmingly observant catholic nation of daily Irish speakers.

These figures simply do not correspond to real life.

haveringchick

eviltwin wrote: »

Hey don't get all defensive, I just believe faith is a thing that one should discover for themselves, it shouldn't be chosen for you.

I'm not being defensive . I'm trying to explain to you because you don't seem to understand that passing on our faith is an intrinsic part of being a Catholic?

eviltwin

haveringchick wrote: »

I'm not being defensive . I'm trying to explain to you because you don't seem to understand that passing on our faith is an intrinsic part of being a Catholic?

So is a lot of other stuff. How many parents like you were virgins when they married, don't use contraception, voted yes on the ssm referendum etc. People pick and choose what aspects they want to believe in and follow. Fair enough if you're devout and do everything by the book but having a baptism and never seeing the church again or doing it just for the day out doesn't make someone Catholic.

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

I dunno JC, last census said the number of Catholic was in the 80's percent and yet it's still a country where well over 90% of our schools offer a Catholic education.

84% Roman Catholic and a total of over 93% Christians of all denominations ... is hardly a basis for arguing that 90% of schools shouldn't have a Christian ethos.
I obviously have sympathy with minority religious and irreligious opinion, being part of a minority myself, but I have to logically accept the reality of the current religious affiliations in this country.
I don't have the right to establish a school specially tailored to my own worldview, if I can't muster enough parents to locally support it ... and like most things in life, I have to compromise and send my children to a school which is closest to my worldview and respects my beliefs.
Secular schools used be my preferred option in this regard, but with increased tolerance and respect for diversity within mainstream Christian ethos schools, I'm increasing persuaded that these schools most closely 'fit the bill' for me.

eviltwin

J C wrote: »

84% Roman Catholic and a total of over 93% Christians of all denominations ... is hardly a basis for arguing that 90% of schools shouldn't have a Christian ethos.
I obviously have sympathy with minority religious and irreligious opinion, being part of a minority myself, but I have to logically accept the reality of the current religious affiliations in this country.
I don't have the right to establish a school specially tailored to my own worldview, if I can't muster enough parents to locally support it ... and like most things in life, I have to compromise and send my children to a school which is closest to my worldview and respects my beliefs.
Secular schools used be my preferred option in this regard, but with increased tolerance and respect for diversity within mainstream Christian ethos schools, I'm increasing persuaded that these schools most closely 'fit the bill' for me.

There you go assuming everyone who identified as religious on the census wants a religion centered society.

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

So is a lot of other stuff. How many parents like you were virgins when they married, don't use contraception, voted yes on the ssm referendum etc. People pick and choose what aspects they want to believe in and follow. Fair enough if you're devout and do everything by the book but having a baptism and never seeing the church again or doing it just for the day out doesn't make someone Catholic.

What people say and what they do are often at variance ... that's Human Nature.
However, trying to tell a cultural (and Baptised) Roman Catholic that they're not a real Roman Catholic is both rude and technically incorrect ... and is likely to result in protestations that they are indeed very much a staunch Roman Catholic.
You are also likely to be asked what competence you possess to rule on their Catholocism ... and the answer to that, unless you're a Roman Catholic bishop, is that you have no competence whatsoever, in this regard.:eek:

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

There you go assuming everyone who identified as religious on the census wants a religion centered society.

I think that it's a reasonable assumption that any parent who states themseves to belong to a particular religion would like the schools who teach their children in loco parentis, to be, as close as possible, reflective of their religious perspectives/worldview.

This isn't unique to parents of faith ... Atheists and Secularists also want schools that their children attend to reflect their irreligious worldview as well ... and therein lies the problem, for people with a worldview shared by, at best 6% of the population, according to the last census.

... and rather than quietly and respectfully negotiating an accommodation for their minority ideas, they are campaigning for the total overthrow of the current educational system and it re-design according to their principles and ideas.
Its an 'all or nothing' kind of strategy ... and I would therefore caution that it could result in nothing ... or at least very little, for those pursuing it.

eviltwin

J C wrote: »

What people say and what they do are often at variance ... that's Human Nature.
However, trying to tell a cultural (and Baptised) Roman Catholic that they're not a real Roman Catholic is both rude and technically incorrect ... and is likely to result in protestations that they are indeed Roman Catholic.
You are also likely to be asked what competence you possess to rule on their Catholocism ... and the answer to that, unless you're a Roman Catholic bishop, is that you have no competence in this regard.:eek:

I'm not telling anyone they are not a Catholic but there are some fundamental rules. I find it interesting how people rationalise ignoring one but staunchly stick to others. They can do what they like and should do and I don't believe the church's rules are realistic in a modern society so I'm certainly not judging anyone. As I say people should always be free to practice whatever they choose provided it's not impacting on the lives of others.

eviltwin

J C wrote: »

i think its a reasonable assumption that any parent who states themseves to belong to a particular religion would like the schools who teach their children in loco parentis, should, as close as possible, reflect their religious perspectives/worldview.

I don't know if you can say that for sure. Wouldn't you expect church attendance to be on a par with census figures then. Catholicism 101 is you keep holy the Sabbath. The only day my local church is busy is FHC day.

J C

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

According to the census, we are an overwhelmingly observant catholic nation of daily Irish speakers.

These figures simply do not correspond to real life.

The census doesn't establish anything about religious practice it asks what religion (or none) people belong to.
In this regard, I think it would be a serious error to think that parents, who rarely set foot in church, but nonetheless consider themselves to be Roman Catholic are significantly less committed to sending their children to Roman Catholic ethos schools than their regular church-going neighbours.
They may even think that it's even more important that religion is taught to their children in school, given their abject failure to do so themselves.

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm not telling anyone they are not a Catholic but there are some fundamental rules. I find it interesting how people rationalise ignoring one but staunchly stick to others. They can do what they like and should do and I don't believe the church's rules are realistic in a modern society so I'm certainly not judging anyone. As I say people should always be free to practice whatever they choose provided it's not impacting on the lives of others.

Roman Catholics as just as likely as anybody else to adopt an a la carte approach to life ... but this isn't good news for any Atheists/Secularists wishing to take control of Roman Catholic schools ... the a la carte approach is also likely to include a deep commitment to retaining Roman Catholic Schools, even when not attending church regularly themselves.

eviltwin

J C wrote: »

Roman Catholics as just as likely as anybody else to adopt an a la carte approach to life ... but this isn't good news for any AtheistsSecularists wishing to take control of Roman Catholic schools ... the a la carte approach is likely to include a deep commitment to retaining Roman Catholic Schools, even when not attending church regularly.

Which is a pity as it means the current lack of alternatives is going to continue for a while to come

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't know if you can say that for sure. Wouldn't you expect church attendance to be on a par with census figures then. Catholicism 101 is you keep holy the Sabbath. The only day my local church is busy is FHC day.

Sabbath observance has never been as strong amongst Roman Catholics, as for example, some Protestant Churches who eschew all forms of non-church activity, including sports and social occasions on Sunday.

I wouldn't expect the number of people declaring themselves to be Roman Catholic on the census to match church attendance figures TBH.
... however, I think that if sombody was to propose knocking down every Roman Catholic church ... resistance to this idea would come from both the regular church attenders and the Roman Catholics who rarely, if ever attend.
... and I think the same is true where any RC controlled schools are proposed to be secularised.

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

Which is a pity as it means the current lack of alternatives is going to continue for a while to come

That would appear to be the reality for you and me.
... but I'm relatively happy to allow my children attend a religious ethos school ... or indeed a secular one that respects my beliefs.
Nothing in life is perfect ... but I find that a willinglness to compromise and avoiding inflating one's own importance to unrealistic proportions helps in achieving an accommodation for ones beliefs and values.

eviltwin

J C wrote: »

That would appear to be the reality for you and me.
... but I'm relatively happy to allow my children attend a religious ethos school ... or indeed a secular one that respects my beliefs.
Nothing in life is perfect ... but I find that a willinglness to compromise and avoiding inflating one's own importance to unrealistic proportions helps in achieving an accommodation for ones beliefs and values.

I wouldnt say that wanting your children to have an unbiased religious education was an over inflation of one's important but different strokes and all that.

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

I wouldnt say that wanting your children to have an unbiased religious education was an over inflation of one's important but different strokes and all that.

I meant an over inflation of ones own importance relative to the percentage of the rest of the population sharing ones opinions on how schools should be run.

eviltwin

J C wrote: »

I meant an over inflation of ones own importance relative to the percentage of the rest of the population sharing ones opinions on how schools should be run.

Well the thing is I don't believe that being in a majority makes you more important than the minority. I don't object to religious education at all but I do believe it's possible to structure the school day so everyone can be accommodated. I don't believe it's healthy to segregate children on the basis of religion, gender, disability etc. With a bit of imagination we can accommodate everyone.

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

Well the thing is I don't believe that being in a majority makes you more important than the minority.

Our importance isn't affected by whether we are in a majority or not ... but our influence on how a particular school should be run is definitely compromised, if we find ourselves in a minority of one on any issue affecting it !!!!

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't object to religious education at all but I do believe it's possible to structure the school day so everyone can be accommodated. I don't believe it's healthy to segregate children on the basis of religion, gender, disability etc. With a bit of imagination we can accommodate everyone.

You speak a lot of sense there ... and I have found this to actually be the case in most Roman Catholic controlled schools nowadays.

looksee

J C wrote: »

and I have found this to actually be the case in most Roman Catholic controlled schools nowadays.

Well I don't have your experience of 'most' Roman Catholic controlled schools, but at least we have a clear statement that public funded schools, paid for by everyone's taxes are controlled by the Catholic church. I find that even more worrying than the notion that the Church is 'just' a Patron, patronage has a rather more benign sound to it.

J C

looksee wrote: »

Well I don't have your experience of 'most' Roman Catholic controlled schools, but at least we have a clear statement that public funded schools, paid for by everyone's taxes are controlled by the Catholic church. I find that even more worrying than the notion that the Church is 'just' a Patron, patronage has a rather more benign sound to it.

The state co-operates in joint ventures with all kinds of private organisations ... that's how liberal democracies (as distinct from totalitarian/socialist regimes) behave. The state gets most of its tax funding from private individuals/organisations ... so it is logical that, at least some state funds, are returned to private individuals/organisations.
The Irish School funding system is similar to many systems in other Western democracies ... private responsibility and control allied to joint public/private funding.

looksee

J C wrote: »

The state co-operates in joint ventures with all kinds of private organisations ... that's how liberal democracies (as distinct from totalitarian/socialist regimes) behave.
The Irish School funding system is similar to many systems in other Western democracies ... private responsibility and control allied to joint public/private funding.

Ah, come on, you can do better than that! This is not a local festival or youth club we are talking about! And where is the private funding - apart from what the parents have to donate?

J C

looksee wrote: »

Ah, come on, you can do better than that! This is not a local festival or youth club we are talking about! And where is the private funding - apart from what the parents have to donate?

Thats the way things work in liberal democracies.
I think there is funding provided from church/parish funds - and the site cost and part of the building costs are borne by the church/parish as well, I think.

Absolam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

According to the census, we are an overwhelmingly observant catholic nation of daily Irish speakers.
These figures simply do not correspond to real life.

But if you said: "According to the census, we as a nation we overwhelmingly identify as catholic though less than half of us consider ourselves Irish speakers and less than two per cent claim to speak Irish on a daily basis outside the education system." those figures would correspond with real life. And with the census; which says nothing about how observant Catholics are at all, and found 77,185 out of 4,588,252 people say they speak the Irish language daily outside the education system.
I wouldn't dismiss the census as quickly as I might dismiss unfounded extrapolation from it

Cabaal

haveringchick wrote: »

I'm not being defensive . I'm trying to explain to you because you don't seem to understand that passing on our faith is an intrinsic part of being a Catholic?

And you being catholic has nothing to do a christian god existing, its purely down your parents choice of religion which they pushed on you which was most likely dictated by their geographic location.

If the were muslim then bets are you'd be muslim too,

If you don't do the church stuff or believe in the Vatican's teachings then you're not catholic, you are just somebody that believes in a christian god.